Baba Manochal

Well done Neo, you have just proved what many people have thought and been saying for a long time. That this is a Nihang Discussion Forum. By saying that we must not doubt the puratan maryada as practiced by budha dal and hazzor sahib, you have given priority to those over all else. Thank you for that clarification, im sure many people will feel glad to have heard it finally said.

I pray vaheguru lets some of the nihangs join the indian army and learn some of the stuff that they were meant to know themselves, and pass the info on to the rest of them, and actually have a working disciplined army!VAHEGURU!!

LOL!!!! please stop, your hurting me!! lol Firstly this post isnt about the british armed forces or any other nations amred forces, its about the SIKH ARMED FORCES. You miss the point, the sikh armed forces shouldnt need to be created!!! They were created by Guru Ji hundreds of years ago!!! What the discussion here is, in case you missed it, is the reform that these forces need to make!! Please tell me about the martial practices that the nihangs have kept alive in your opinion. And then tell me of their practicality in a modern conflict. Also then go back and answer the other points about the lack of structure, the lack of expertice, the lack of skill and knowledge, the lack of training, the lack of equipment etc etc etc etc etc etc Please explain which terrorists/kharkoo/fanatics your talking about?? The only kharkoo singhs who you could possibly be referring to are the singhs who fought in Punjab during the 80's and 90's. May i remind you that many of these fanatics had a lot of knowledge in martial aspects, a few names for you; General Shubegh Singh Ji one of the most revered generals of his time Baba Manochal quit the army General Labh singh, was a distinguised member of the punjab police (and you know they have martial experience!!) Maybe you should do some research on the Sikh movement since 1947 in particular and then talk about lack of diplomacy. You talk of a single foe? They took on hundreds! Unless your stupidly labelling people in this country? For some reason if somebody isnt seen as a 'nihang' or one of their friends in this country is automatically labelled a fanatic! If you refer to these people, then again i suggest you do some research on sikh politics in the uk, and speak to some of the 'foes' who have been spoken to individually. anyway this discussion isnt about fanatics or whatever else you want to discuss, start a new topic about that if you wish. This is a legitimate question. The nihang dals claim to be an army, i am asking for that claim to be substantiated. Why is that such an insult? You tell me, the next time somebody decides to kill thousands of people on the streets of delhi, rape our sisters and burn gurdwara down to the ground, who will take the responsibility to defend them or deliver justice? Can you confidently say that the dals are capable or even willing to do so, given the responses of many of them in recent history?? At the moment they dont have the resources to even take care of a rebel nihang and his group! What a shame it would be if it was people of the fanatical mindset that had to pick up WEAPONS AGAIN to defend sikhi. Answer the question if you wish, dont divert the converstaion.

helloooo people?!? Any replies?? It sees that the BJP is makin great strides in india and may well win the election, which may in turn no sorry, which WILL in turn give rise to further hindu nationailsm feelings with the result in more intercommunal violence, against both muslims and sikhs. Im quite shocked that nobody is prepared to suggest reform for our outdated armies! People seem happy to harp on about things, but seriously; WHERE IS THE SIKH MILITARY?!?!?! I saw some pics on some thread recently, and most of the nihang singhs looked either a little old to fight or incredibly out of shape. Im sure there are some singhs that can march and run etc but an armies worth?? Are we really to believe that THIS is the army that Guru Gobind Singh Ji created??? Surely the greatest general needs warriors who could follow his commands. this includes knowing tactics, being able to move (stamina) from place to place, understanding commands, and being able to use any weaponary available! Tut tut tut Also i read an intresting thread/post somewhere that hari singh nalwa (so i believe) was said to have been abel to converse in english and french as well as his native language. Is this also true of the generals today? Any comments would be nice!

i still think that 'you' would be the only person on ther island!! but if that isnt the case, the hey whats to say that they are a couple at all? she could be lying about being married for starters!!

hmm Marooned.... doesnt that suggest that you would be the only person on that island? or does it mean that you have crashed there and found this community of others?! im guessing your on your own, similar to the man on the way to st ives who met a man with 9 wifes, each wife had a bag each bag had 9 cats etc etc how many people on the way to st ives?

There is a need for two seperate identities when two seperate people are inviolved in the conversation (are you just stupid?) Again let me repeat the point that im trying to make, What im trying to say is that if you have valuable insights into the way the system works their then why not do something positive! You may not like mass scale events etc, but does that mean that you canot give any advice to people who are protesting? Is every sikh in france either akj or isyf? if not then why not at least help them? but no, you'd rather do nothing and sit there having a crack at other people! Arrogant, i call you arrogant because of your high and mighty tone, you portray yourself as a 'knight of guru ji', and you seem happy in the sense that since you have the knowledge, everything else is fine and damn the rest to hell! Methods used may well be wrong, but will you stand and educate people and do something yourself (for others)? ps where are these gursikhs who you will join in this particular episode? where will they come from? where have they been so far? And again yo mock the khalistani's, i agree shouting those slogans at such places wont benifit the current situation, but dynamic banda what do you suggest, and what have you done to help? how would you better the struggle to keep the sikh turban, when will you be taking this action you suggest to teh streets of france or elsewhere to put it into practice? Again i ask you, do you condone violent action against the french authorities if they continue to pursue their intentions? would 'kicking their teeth in' be sufficient? Or are you somehow secretly hoping and perhaps wishing that the terrorists who you keep mentioning have a swipe at the french goverment!? Would that suffice as a kick to the french teeth? You seem very happy to make sweeping comments like all akj are not sikhs and all isyf are terrorists! is every sikh who wears a orange dastaar or who involves themselves in the struggle for khalistan in some way or other part of the isyf? are they all terrorists? why your problem with all akj's do they all believe in keski and reject raag-malaa as gurbani? If somebody is an akj but believes in kesh and gurbani as gurbani are they still not sikhs!? be careful when you make such generalisations, there may well be people whom you include who are more beloved to vaheguru than yourself. Finally please dont even start on tiger and cat similies, thats beyond childish and just confrontational, its a waste of time debating who is a cat and who is a tiger over the internet! face to face is another thing, but cyber warriors are generally not worth the time it takes to type the challenge or reply! anyway iv heard and read of you and your 'cough cough' tiger strength and conviction, so errrm believe me brother you can call me what you like it really doesnt bother me! just waiting to hear of the 'tiger like' chap that kicks in the teeth of the french officials who try to remove his turban! or even something stronger... since the french dont listen to petitions and protests....

LOL again i think sukhdev singh's message has been missed, the point he is making is that we should all make an effort to help each other. Lallesvari what you do is fine for you, you not removing your turban is fine for you, but what about helping somebody else? If the people are from the AKJ or from the ISYF will you stand back and watch while they are forced to remove their turbans!? You dont wish to be represented by them, and you continously state that they have no idea about what to do in this scenario, while you yourself do know what action should be taken. Well here's a suggestion, why dont you use your expert knowledge to actually help these people then?! For those youngsters who you admire so greatly, why not do something to help them? YOU not taking off YOUR turban when YOU go to france, will not stop the govt from doing as it wishes. So try thinking of the bigger picture, if you have something of value to offer the people fighting for their rights then do so. If your just going to sit back feeling good about yourself with your inside info and just going to laugh at their attempts then your an idiot. From your post you sound so very arrogant, you make yourself sound like your the only person wearing a dastar in france! again i repeat you can do as you like, but what about the rest?! also are you saying that using your 'physical vidiya' you would commit violence? Is that what you suggest all the sikhs of france do then? carry on wearing their dastaar's and if provoked or if an attempt is made to remove them then 'kick their teeth in'? Surely there can be a better solution as oppossed to getting every turban wearing sikh in france imprisoned under assault charges!

The definition given for jhatka.. is that an official one? I.e is that your personal definition shaterkovich or the official? Is there an official explanation? Beast you have one hell of a chip on your shoulder, when will you realise that i do not have a hidden agenda or secret vendeta agaisnt you or anyone else! I am here to learn. If you feel you can assist then please do so, olive branch accepted. I agree that this prob does agree on definitions. Does it not seem that the 3 point definition given and the the accompanying note about the sikh being able to kill the animal by blood letting, is another way of saying ALL meat is acceptable except halal. so everything except halal is jhatka. This confuses me slightly because the word jhatka as far as i know, means a one blow kill. be that severing the head or bullet shot etc. But iv never heard that blood letting could be defined as jhatka?? This link is to the Government website giving directions on how animals are to be slaughtered in the uk. http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welfare/fa...81/casua010.htm this would suggest that uk slaughter houses as you well know kill their animals by bleeding them to death. in terms of halal the only thing missing is the muslim and the prayer! as i have said i find it difficult to accept blood spilling as a form of jhatka(instant death). the following link is from a research paper into slaughtermethods and the stunning techniques used. as you have earlier said this is not at all a safe or efficient system. http://www.ciwf.co.uk/Pubs/Reports/UK_Slau...elfare_2001.pdf this is quite a comprehensive study, it covers probs related to stunning the animals, which in many cases are not sufficiently done, meaning animal is still wide awake at time of slaughter. it also appraoches the fact that when the animal is bled, often it can take a lot longer then expected for the animal to die. halal is challenged as an inhumane method of killing animals without prior stunning. IS there a difference between mahaparshad and jhatka!? The reason this is in the nihang section, is becuase it would seem that they are the main ones who practice jhatka, and hence they would prob be best placed to answer the questions.

firstly if you wanna start calling names, then fair enough lets do that, babu is real funny and clever, if thats the road you want to travel down then please say so and we can do that, no problem. now going back to ur points. OBVIOUSLY i dont understand what you meant, thats why i asked for clarification, perhaps you are the one with reading difficulty. i have said clearly that i do not understand what you are saying since to me it seems that you are using both arguments, and yet still you havent said what you meant. if that means i have probs reading, chal lets say that i have, please proffesor sahib explain to this moorakh. given the reading dificulties i have, perhaps we both studied at the same school. your school teacher example is crap, there are so many individuals who ordinarily will claim to be nihangs etc but when asked to be specific they answer in much the same way as you did. the logic i used is based on being given the choice, if your not comfortable with that then be clear, dont be ambiguous. and mr centre of the universe the muslim halal comment wasnt meant for yourself, if you read back through your own posts you will notice that it wouldnt work if that was meant for your benifit, however if you look at shasterkovich's posts it does apply to them. so dont be such a drama queen. and wow thank you so much for pointing out that an animal would be aware of its surroundings AFTER its throat had been slit! never would have guessed that one! i would say none of my questions have been answered. if i wanted to cause conflict about eating meat my friend, why would i state that i do not wish to turn this conversation into a meat vs non meat one?! why do you seem so certain that i am causing trouble? have i criticized anyone in this topic for eating meat? whether or not i believe it is right or wrong, i have kept those opinions out of the debate and am asking the people who do eat meat questions about how they do it etc. if you cant or wont answer them then how am i causing conflict!? go look at any other thread about meat and other such issues and you see the conflict on those, so far nobody other than you has called anybody names, i have never judged you, only questioned. so from my understanding this thread is going quite well. stop trying to divert the attention and answer the points. why are you so scared of answering the question? thats the 2nd or 3rd time youve avoided it now. ok so you dont eat halal. im not asking that. im asking what kind of meat do you eat. how is that such a difficult question to answer? hari said he has eaten 3 chickens whose necks he has broken, fair enough the chap answered the point. but you for some reason keep avoiding it? why? being no expert on meat, i still pretty certain when i say that there must be more ways of killing meat apart from just halal and jhatka. im asking you what method you use, or if you dnt then what method does the person who provides the meat for you use. and what it to me? well it is something to me because i wish to know the information, if you dont want to answer of get involved in the discussion then dont. leave. bye bye. and which of shaster..'s points do you feel are really good? rinse me? pray tell me how!? by saying i cant read english?! whooo bad boy! grow up. if you cant be bothered to discuss sensibly then just dont get involved. there are SO many people who are pro meat, and i havent attacked any of these people, just asked them about how and what they do! i havent judged just queried. now if thats a crime then shoot me! i cant believe that out of so many people who say its ok to eat jhatka etc, that only one person can tell me where they got their meat from and how it was killed. maybe everyone is just full of bull**? i dunno. beast calm down and chat properly try to be civilised or dont bother at all.

What do you guys reckon? Should singhs upon seeing something wrong take it upon themselves to sort it out. If, the authorities are not dealing with the problem for whatever reasons shouldnt the singhs themselves do something? In particular I refer to the shocking articles posted at the following link! http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=3026 Has anybody done something about this guy!? There are so many dehtharis and pakhandis about, whats wrong with us?! Why dont we as saint-soldiers do something? As defenders shouldnt baba santa singh, baba nihal singh etc do something?

Beast says and yet eariler you try to tell me that animals get scared when they see a man with a knife!? Please clarify beast whether or not you believe an animal would feel fear and run when seeing a weapon. So far youre on both ships. you say Sorry but isnt removing the head of an animal the usual way chatka is done? im sure you could shoot it as well, but since this is meant to be a practical discussion, the liklihood of the nihangs or other meat eating sikhs who belive in chatka shooting an animal at home or elsewhere ar rather slim. In regards to your cola comment, perhaps in the future i shall pick my words with more care, let me rephrase in regards to the drinking part.. is some type of gurbani read (by others)while a nihang drinks the animlas blood? also please can you answer the actual question itself, i.e. if halal is wrong because its a ritual which involves sacred verses being read, then are there of are there not certain shabads read before the animal is killed such as chandi di var, this is what i have heard or read somewhere, can somebody confirm or deny this? i called you a nihang because earlier you said you was both and neither, which means you dont seem to care so i have chosen to call you a nihang since you seemed to give me the option of doing so. if im wrong please state as such. If you say you disagree with halal or question its use does that make anyone anti muslim or does it mean your attacking muslims? PLEASE can people answer the questions!!! Rather than avoiding them is there no-one who can answer them?!?! i asked loads in the first post and yet hardly any have been even attempted at being answered!! I find this very strange because on so many other posts there are remarks and jokes and arguments given for meat eating, and yet here nobody is willing to discuss the issue!! its not even a right or wrong discussion, just a practical one! only hari so far has actually answered anything! Beast you avoided my question again. Where do you get your meat from? and how do you or another individual kill it? its a simple question! From using the little 'eye' thingy at the top of the page, one can see that nihal kaur has viewed this topic last on the 24th dec and narsingha on the 27th. both of these people have been advocates for meat and jhatka so pleae another appeal to you two as well, please can you answer the questions in my first post!!

yeh bring out the Mr Muscle Dusht Pappi Cleaner! Look at the rise of hindu nationalism with the rss and vhp and other groups, muslims are always getting killed in india by so called 'religious riots', i think one of my lecturer's said once that there were studies which showed that riots are rarely if ever spontaneous, and that in fact they are often planned and people come prepared to cause the violence. if this happens to the sikhs again, there is no guarantee tht it wont, after all those responsible for the previous outrages against the sikhs are still walking free (or dead after some kharkoo singh put a bulet in their heads!!). therefore we need to prepare for this possibility otherwise we will suffer massive numbers of sikhs being killed again and nobody but villagers whose only training consists of love for guru and sikhi will be there to defend us and then later be called extremists by their own people. Nobody can deny that the budha dal and the tarna dal are now ineffective as an armed force, so much so that it embarassing trying to compare them with other armies around the world. was looking through a book called something like 'the world greatest armed forces' or similar to that .. and one would hope (dream more like) that the khalsa fauj of Guru Gobind Singh which had done so much in the past would also be mentioned... but not a whisper! But it did mention the kharkoo singhs in another book! lol that the indian army (one of the largest in the world) had to often deal with seperatists(their words) in punjab! lol so at least they got a mention!

the reason i would also like to hear from mr llashvari, is because mr narsingha who is meant to be the expert on nihangs, has called llashvari an expert on nihang singhs also, therefore i was hoping to hear from both experts. intresting articles, do you know what the govt has done further to this? now call me stupid, but isnt it true that when a chicken is beheaded it stills runs around!? not sure if that meant to be muscular spasaming or what or is that jus an old joke?! what do you think animal rights protestors would say if they heard that nihangs in the uk and other countries were beheading goats and sheep etc in their back yards? do you think there would be noise made then too? not sure which prayer the muslim reads, but dont nihangs read chandi di var or chopai sahib or something like that before, or after they kill the animal? or is that while they drink the goats blood? again you misunderstand my question... i'll repeat the meat which you eat... as a nihang .... do you or do you not kill the meat yourself before eating it? or do you get somebody else to chatka the animal for you, hence the title of this topic, do you eat meat within the rehat of nihang maryada or not? or do you purchase your meat from the butchers of other shops? using your common sence would suggest that no matter what the fear felt by the animal upon seeing a knife surely it would piss its pants (lol) if the same individual pulled out a kirpan! and from what i know of animals which i admit is not much, i have never really seen an animal stand still for long enough for a guy to walk up and chop its head off. as i admit i havent spent much time around sheeps and goats so i cant be certain, but surely animals which are fully concious are aware of their surroundings. this point leads of naturally to the question i asked earlier about whether the animals are drugged before they are killed in chatka? if u cant answer then fair enough, but hopefuly others will!

bhenji, i love the sound of that idea! Upon taking amrit if each of us could like you said spend a year doing seva and learing out gurbani etc and defending the panth, that would be an experience beyond words! it would also create such strong bonds within the community as all of us would be taking part in the same seva together, and in the future in a war/battle did occur thn we would be ready and not have to rely on old men with porr weaponary. Perhaps it is just a dream, but a nice dream! Im suprised that the people supporting the nihang's in india, havent given any evidence to counter the views or ideas here. There does seem to be a number of intelligent (much more intelligent than myself) people on this forum, and as we are meant to be a nation of saint soldiers, im shocked that we cant discuss such an important topic in any detail! surely this problem needs addressing! (ps how long penji do you think before somebody tries to compare this with the islamic schools run in pakistan and prev in afghanistan etc lol but truth is we DO need people who are able and willing to fight and die for sikhi!!)

when the fellow mentioned knife, he didnt mention the process of killing the animal, justthat it would be killed using a knife, thus one can assume that he is referring to halal methods just as much as chatka methods. i accept the point that you did state you dnt eat halal. But surely a muslim could argue the same point back, that nihangs are never going to admit that their method is wrong and chatka is correct. i have never heard that the uk govt is trying to ban halal, from personal observation, the number of places catering for halal is increasing.. from where did you get that information? if the animal is distressed during halal, then what about during chatka? if a guy is standing next to it with a big whopping sword, then isnt the animal more aware of that than a knife? i have heard that often the animals are drugged in chatka b4 they are killed, is this also true? why does the animal need to be drugged, if that is the case. i ask for mr narsingha's views because as i said it appears that he is the authority on nihang maryada, and thus i was hoping that he would be able to give me some concrete information. the website is rather large, and this being a discussion forum, i believe that issues should be discussed here so that everyone can have open acces to the points revealed. also please try and answer some of the other questions i raised. p.s. mr hari and mr beast, do you kill your own animals as well? where do you kill them?

when you said the above, you didnt specify how the animal would be killed, just that it would be killed with a knife, obviously halal is also done with a knife. So you kill all the meat that you eat with your own knife, or ensure that someone be-heads it for you? i.e. chatka? why wouldnt you eat halal meat? whats the difference between halal and chatka? both result in dead animals, both killed with knives, both proccess involve certain prayers being read before during or after the process is committed. So what is the difference. anyway how do most people know how the animal is killed if you buy it from the shop? doesit say on the label.. e.g. this animal was electrocuted on 24/11/03 at old mcdonalds farm in scotland? or whatever it is!

So far then, it can be understood that, as long as the animal is killed by a knife, then its is fine to eat. Be it halal non-halal etc. And also that any animal is viable to be eaten as i said, horses cats dogs pigs etc. This from what nihang say is against maryada isnt it(that halal is against rehat)? Also would the two people who have replied so far describe themselves as nihangs?? or just people who eat meat? I am particularly looking forward to Mr narsingha's and mr llashvari's views on this topic, as they do seem to to be the experts in nihangs. Also i know somebody who only eats halal meat and they say that halal is better because all the blood is drained out, and since the blood of the animal carries most of the diseases, by draining it, it is healthier. Also that most of us claim that halal is inhumane, but according to this person, his muslim butcher claims that the first vein/(whatever it is) he cuts is the central nerve one which stops the animal feeling any pain. I dont know how true this is, but if this is the case, then isnt eating halal better than normal meats? Again i realy look forward to narsingha's views, and those of people who claim they are nihangs. As meat eating nihangs, dont you feel it is wrong that two people (the guys that have posted so far) dont seem to have an issue as such with halal and would eat non-chatka meat?

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa Vaheguru ji ki fateh This question is not to debate whether or not eating meat is right or wrong, theres plenty of discussions on that. This is to for those people that do eat meat. Just wanted to ask, how do you guys eat within your rehat? From what i understand some nihangs say that meat eating is fine, but that it must be eaten only after chatka is done to the animal... i.e. cutting the head off in one blow? yes? and that not meat but halal is a krehat? yes? Well i just wanted to ask, is this rehat maintained at all times? I mean for example if you didnt manage to cut the head of in one blow and a bit of skin was still attached. would you still eat it or throw it away? and is there certain animals which you cant eat? in the sense that you normally hear of goats being killed for their meat, but can you eat other animals like cows, chickens, birds, deers, pigs, horses, dogs, cats etc? Reason being that often you hear the argument that the armies didnt have time to prepare dhal etc and so had to eat meat, well if you were in those circumstances and you saw a dog would that also be chatka'd and eaten? and how would you kill the smaller animals like birds, chickens, cats etc. Also do eggs and fish count? can you nihangs eat eggs and fish? how do you chatka an egg or even a fish!? (lol this started as one question! nearly finished!!) Finally, for the people who dont live in india but wish to eat meat, how do they chatka their animals? Do they have to buy goats and sheep and kill them in their back gardens? Where do you buy your animals from and do you have to do it secretly because surely the authorities and even your neighbours wouldnt like the idea of slaughter occuring next door! lol What if you cant get chatka meat here? but still wanted to eat meat (as many people on this forum believe need to, i.e. in order for a balanced diet and for training as people have said on a topic to do with training and diet), for these people are they breaking the rehat by eating non-chatka meat? if you just buy and eat normal meat does that make you a krethi? and of the people who have claimed that eating meat is ok and that chatka is fine etc, how many of you actually eat meat, and how many just talk it? Plus do you hide the fact that you are a meat eater from the people around you or are you open about it? sorry for so many questions, but just wanted to ask. look forward to some replies, please as i have said dont make this a meat vs non meat theological debate, this is slightly different, i wish to hear from the meat eaters themselves, thank you!

Suggestion; put this article under the discussion in nihangs, tarana dal nihangs... where Mr Narsingha can continue to call baba ji a liar and a hypocrite. Thanks.

Lol Dear friend narsingha, you are confused, i am not talking about baba nihal singh, i am trying to keep the discussion strictlyto the topic! If you wish to discuss baba nihal singh then please posts your views on there, as im sure many people would like to read up on that discussion and if we discuss it here then they might miss the opportunity. Ps i like the change of style you have adopted, rather than just reject things straight out and call me a liar, you have now (perhaps after asking others if what i said is true) decided that maybe what i say might be true... anyway please cont this in the 'tarana dal nihangs' discussion. But Mr 'narsingha' firstly as penji pointed out please point out where i got personal? I havent isulted you or called you names! i simply am discussing the way you approach topics for discussion. My reason for posting the above was actually with the 'Damdami Taksal' thread in mind. In that instance you dismissed all reasoning that the damdami taksal was started by Guru Gobind Singh Ji, argueing that there was no written proof... but yet here you say that written proof i not always required. As people on that thread argued that they had from a large number of mixed sources heard that taksal was started by the Guru, it seems strange that you can find them wrong, but here when it seems to suit you, you allow space for oral tradition! Sounds very hypocritical to me. I dont want to re-open the taksal topic, im just using that as an example of how you 'jump ship' when it suits you. Please answer my questions on whether or not you agree with my conclusions frm your philosophy. Thank you! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Moderator Note: Baba Manochal either change your tone which is way too sarcastic or your membership of this forum will be discontinued. This is not a chat room but discussion forum. You can post question and let members answer them but if you want to get answer from one of our member then use PM instead. I hope you will change your method of posting and we will not have to take any action. This discussion is locked for three days so people can read our discussion guidelines.

Narsingha so you mean that even if something is written down, then it doesnt neccesarily mean that it didnt exist? Beacuse it may have done but someone just didnt write it down, and we shouldnt just dismiss things because they are not documented? I see Narsingha I think that this would be a good point, to point out some failures in you personally using this argument. From a number of other threads i have read in which you have contributed, you completely dismiss any ideas that 'something' may have existed at the times of the guru's due to 'lack or written evidence'. So using your own argument one could argue that in fact, the item of debate, was actually passed down in an oral fashion and not in written form, which is what you have argued above. I personally also believe in oral forms of parchar, and it often frustrates me when people get their kashere in a twist over written evidence, once on a discussion i read somewhere recently asked for written evidence from within the last 5 years! lol, i was thinking i could write a bok and provide evidence for that person myself! Anyway back to my point, I find it difficult to comprehend how narsingha can justify oral traditions in one discussion and dismiss them completely in another. Yes distortion of the truth can occur in oral traidtion, but that is another topic, just dismmising a notion straight out because it relies on oral evidence is just stupidity. Could you please state your stance on oral traditions, and whether or not they can be considered as portals of truth. Also intresting that you say the authors could be jerks, hence that which they discuss could be fanciful and simply fabricated or adjusted to fit with their own beliefs. So the next question to arise is that, if this is so, then again why do you (not solely you but others also) rely so strongly on written documentation from authors who could be 'jerks'? Please note i use the terminology 'could be'. Since the authors could be jerks, would it not make it more sense to give what they say a slightly less amount of credability than which we do at the moment? (Note to mods; i understand that you may think that this is taking the discussion off-topic, if that is the case, please could you copy this entire message with narsingha's prev msg and start a new topic entitled something like 'Oral traditions'... thank you.)

Int it shameful that we have to compare our army with rioters and genocidal maniacs? Surely the khalsa should be above that! Is there any other respectable armed force who uses the example of 11 yr old boys throwing rocks as justification for being militarily underarmed? it would seem that as long as we could riot then we are safe...? Didnt Guru Gobind Singh give his singhs the best weapons possible and talk about the best weapons available at the time in his gurbani? Im sure the singh's there didnt use sticks and stones, they would have have the best available. So why have we still only got weapons that were last used as the primary weapon in a REAL WAR over a hundred years ago? Dont you need more than a uniform to be an army? Also what discipline? Are you talking about being able to take orders and follow them in the thick of battle, i.e. battle formations, attack formations, holding under heavy fire, etc etc? Or discipline like early morning training, making sure equipment and self is in perfect condition? And what hierarchy exists? I think the question spoke about promotions within ranks... does this exist? As in are there generals, regimental officers etc? Maybe a real and effective sikh armed force should be trained to protect the gurdwara's, particularly harimandir sahib. Would anybody from here go to punjab to train and join a force like this if it was created?

harimandir sahib was not covered in gold by guru ji, as far as i know it was covered by raja ranjit singh when he ruled over punjab. one has to wonder that if darbar sahib was to be called "the golden temple" wouldnt guru ji have covered it themselves, after all they had no shortage of sikhs who would have willingly done the seva? you cant try and compare yourself with the guru, guru ji wore whatever he liked, he was the guru he can and did do what he liked. we are not to copy his actions but to follow his commands. if gurbani tells us that gold is a waste of time and is just like dust etc then that is what we follow. if the guru's command is to ake amrit wear the kakkar's and live as a sikh then that is what we follow. someone talked about a gold kara, as far as i know, one of the reasons for wearing a kara is that its meant to be made from a base element ie iron (sarbloh) which is a natural and humble metal and remind us to be the same, to keep humility in our hearts. how does a gold kara fulfill this requirement? again as far as i know, the kara should be sarbloh, not gold, silver stainless steel, platinum etc, those are bangles. and who cares what a gora thinks or says? we listen to guru ji, gora might say u got long hair therefore you are feminine like a woman.. is that something you would listen to as well? if you dnt see the practicality in something then why use/wear it? you wear clothes to keep you covered and warm, the kakkars also have a purpose as stated, but gold? what purpose does it have? if people give others gold, then why? why not give something of use eg kirpan? some say i wear this ring cus my dying gran gave it to me...is that attachment or am i just cruel hearted?? shes gone, she dnt give a ** what or who has her ring! gold is a waste of time, and we increase the prob by giving it a place in our society which means people feel they have to have some in order to be respectable... look how much gets thrown around at weddings! do u really think your gonna wear all that or parenst can afford it? its just a case of if she got x amount for their daughter, we have to get 2x amount! leading to probs with dowry (prog on bbc2 the other day) and its associated difficulties! khalsa meant to be simple, we aint showing example to society by getting involved in this stuff.

some of you guys hould read what a follower and admirer of kala afghana recently printed in the sikh times, slandering bhai randhir singh and sant gurbachan singh ji, called sant ji a con man amongst other things! ur gonna say well its not kala's words, but they must be inspired from somewhere, and the idiots at sikh times even printed this crap that this guy sent them!