The purpose of creating the Khalsa

[amardeep]

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh.

Lately there has been various discussions on this board regarding the origins of the Khalsa amrit sanchaar, and most of us have agreed that the purpose of creating the Khalsa was to create a warrior group to fight opression. Guru Gobind Singh in his fatehnama clearly states that it is a warrior group when he says:

Now by the grace of the Lord, I have made the water of steel (Amrit

for my warriors) which will fall upon you like a torrent

And with this (torrent of Amrit), your sinister kingdom will vanish

from this holy land without a trace

Mcleod in his "Sikhs of the Khalsa" also concludes that the early khalsa was strictly a military unit to fight the opressors, and only men were allowed to join this brotherhood.

But after talking to different sikhs, i have been told that many of the shaheeds of the sikh panth were NOT warriors even though they took amrit. Bhai Taru Singh is one of these who did not join a military jatha.

So the question is;

If the khalsa was not strictly a 100% percent brotherhood for warriors, then what was it? What was the overall purpose of creating the Khalsa, and what is the duty of a amrit dhari in todays world when it comes to the chivalry aspect of it.

and also, is the famous sakhi of Shaheed Baba Deep Singh loosing his hands and carrying it on his palms an oral tradition, or is it to be found in early sikh or non-sikh sources ?

[Matheen]

Do you have to join a military jatha to be a warrior?

Just my opinion on the matter-

The Khalsa that Maharaj Ji created was an embodiment of the ideals that make a perfect human being. So everyone was armed and ready to fight for freedom and protecting dharm while doing bhagti and earning an honest living.

Read Guru Sahib's OWN definition of a Khalsa and you'll see that the ideals are as relevant today as they always have been. Becoming Amritdhari is the first step, the initiation. It takes alot of effort, kamaii and especially Kirpa to become the Khalsa that Guru Ji talks about. Historians are not always the best source, especially not McLeod.

Sometimes we hear stories of people being mugged on crowded trains etc and people just watching. I'd like to think that any Singh in the same situation would not hesitate helping the victim.

As there is no collective Khalsa army today, we should concentrate on fighting against oppression wherever we are, even if you're alone. It could be as simple as helping French Sikhs wear Dastars in school or petitioning the Irish Garda to allow Dastars in their force.

Admittedly, i was saddened when i heard of Afghani Singhs being oppressed during the taliban days and doing nothing about it. Once in a while, we do get Singhs, like Sant Jarnail Singh ji Bhindranwale, who have enough kamaii to live up to their external appearance and stand up for what they believe in. Or the Mahapursh from Bhai Daya Singh Ji's sampardaye who nullified the effects of christian missionaries in Punjab.

Personally I 100% believe the sakhi of Baba Deep Singh Ji.

[wahegurubol]

Veer Ji, WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH.

As far as my little thinking goes. If you want to meet God you must have a Guru and if you want to make a Guru you must get intiated by the Guru, ie take amrit from the Guru.

Before Guru Gobind Singh ji , there was charan pahul amrit. Guru Gobind Singh ji knew the next Guru will be Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Guru Gobind Singh ji changed the system of taking amrit to Khandey Da Amrit, so If you want to be a sikh of the Guru, you must take the Amrit of Khandey de pahul , irrespective of the fact wether you want to be a warrior or a saint or anything , after this you are Sikh of the Guru and you can work towards reaching God.

If you see there are some pet dogs and pet dogs have a collar in their neck that collar in their neck tells to which owner they belong. A dog that doesnt have a collar is considered a homeless street dog and often it will be caught by a dog catcher or be stoned or harrassed by public.

In the same way, people with amrit.. you can imagine they have a collar in their neck, they are dogs of the Guru, a person without a Guru will be an aimless wandering homeless street dog who will be harrased by the Jamdoots.

So take amrit ... janam sohaila karo

[Matheen]

^^^i actually agree with w-bol on this......

[amardeep]

Some rehitnamas seem to indicate that Charan di pahul was still in existence AFTER 1699, hereby having a clear distinction between the sants, and the sant-sipahis

Sau sakhi:

Hear me, my khalsa.

spiritual liberation is is obtained by initiation based on the uncut hair.

this can be either by the excelent initiation of Khande di pahul, or the foot wash variety (charan ki jugah)

The initiation the first 9 Gurus gave was the initiation to the Sant, whereas Guru Gobind Singh added the sword hereby creating his soldiers.

i thought that maybe Shaheed Bhai Taru Singh and other non-militarian sikhs had taken charan di pahul from Maharaj, hereby having the name Singh, and still being an amrit dhari?

[Matheen]

Which Rehitname? Sau sakhi isn't a Rehitnama.

The 5 Pyare were given a collective status of Guru, i've never heard of Charan Pahul from 5pyare. Furthermore, when Gurgaddi was given to Guru Granth Sahib Ji, how could charan amrit continue?

[amardeep]

i hope to hear more about the issue of charan di pahul after 1699 by other members such as javanmard(shamsher), niranjana, tsingh, neo singh etc.

i'll try to find the rehatnames in the meanwhile

[Kam1825]

Charan di pahul still exists in the akharas of the udasis, sanyasis and brahmchariyas

[Mystical]

Charan di pahul still exists in the akharas of the udasis, sanyasis and brahmchariyas

Is there a specific code to be followed? Because I know its different to Khande Da Pahul?

[amardeep]

who are the sanyasis and brahmchariyas ? very interesting indeed..

[Mehtab Singh]

Whenever someone of another faith lays claim to Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee, it makes me mad, makes me laugh, and also makes me proud of my Guru. People work so hard running after atomic sized misleading evidences just to discredit Sikhi. Some compare the Khanda to an Islamic symbol that shows on the flag of Iran, some compare Amrit Sanchaar to an ancient Shia chivalry order's initiation, some say Gurujee used the sword of Ali at the first Sanchaar, etc. etc.the list goes on.

With due sympathy with all these who have lost the plot, lets look at it in the light of Gurbani/Gurmat. Anyone who believes that there was no one ever like Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee Maharaj before Him, believes that there is no one like Him, and there will be no one ever in future like Him won't take long to figure out that the Khalsa, and therefore the Amrit Sanchaar were totally new concepts started by Dasmesh Pitaji. Anyone who thinks these were "taken", "borrowed" or "copied" from pre-existing foreign "systems" is directly implying that Gurujee was not perfect and independent in thinking. We can't debate or discuss much with such a person now, can we?

Bhai Gurdas Ji said "Nanak nirmal panth chalaya". Those who say Sikhi is an offshoot of Hinduism, a sect of Islam (Shia Islam to be specific), a continuation of Christianity have been blind to this pankti. "Chalaya" here means Gurujee started it. It was NOT a continuation or sect or branch of a pre-existing religion. "Nirmal" means without filth. Thus Sikhi is NOT a mixture of more than one religions as some people like to claim it as a mix of Hinduism (Bhagti movement) and Islam (Sufi movement). Anyone who makes such claims is totally unaware of this pankti.

As for Bhai Taru Singh ji, if we read his sakhi, we find that Bhai Taru Singh ji was arrested because he did langar sewa of the Singhs who were fighting the oppressive Mughals. Does that not make him part of the Khalsa army? I am sure we have heard of certain officers serving in the army who probably never see/face combat, yet they provide some sort of assistance and support. If they were not part of the Khalsa army, why were they martyred? What martial did Bhai Mani Singh ji do? Yet he was martyred. So were loads of Sikhs, including Bhai Mati Das, Bhai Sati Das, Bhai Dyala ji who never even picked up the sword, yet they were martyred. The concept of shaheedi is huge. Some sants attain it, some sipahis attain it, and some sant-sipahis attain it as well.

There is always that question about Baba Deep Singh jee. Lets remember a pankti from Sukhmani Sahib "prabh bhaawe bin saas te raakhey", which means that God can sustain life even without breath. Remember breath is the least possible requirement to be alive. If Akal Purkh can sustain life without breath, then why not without the head? Baba Deep Singh jee recited 110 Jaap Sahibs and 108 Japji Sahibs a day. Honestly, tell me if one would remain a normal human being after doing that much paath? Babaji was not an ordinary human being. It shouldn't be a surprise that he fought without his head. Those who question it need to understand that Sikhs of that avastha cannot be compared to mere mortals.

May Gurujee forgive my mistakes. I am still learning. Please correct me wherever I have made a mistake.

[wahegurubol]

well said Mehtab Singh ji !

when you say Baba Deep Singh ji recited 110 Jaap Sahibs and 108 Jap ji Sahibs, I guess he recited in his surti, correct me if Iam wrong, since that much path cannot be recited in a day the way we recite normally with the gutka or listenning.

[Mystical]

Whenever someone of another faith lays claim to Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee, it makes me mad, makes me laugh, and also makes me proud of my Guru. People work so hard running after atomic sized misleading evidences just to discredit Sikhi.

I'm not trying to discredit Sikhi, since i'm a Sikh myself. I'm just trying to understand Charan di pahul, i'm sick of Black and White Sikhi. Modern Sikhi ideas are to not to speak of it and don't question it and follow blindly what your teacher says without understanding it. You wont find truth without understanding first, then you can fully understand the true meaning.

How many of you passed your exams without asking questions?

[Mehtab Singh]

I'm not trying to discredit Sikhi, since i'm a Sikh myself. I'm just trying to understand Charan di pahul, i'm sick of Black and White Sikhi. Modern Sikhi ideas are to not to speak of it and don't question it and follow blindly what your teacher says without understanding it. You wont find truth without understanding first, then you can fully understand the true meaning.

How many of you passed your exams without asking questions?

None of what I said was directed to you or anyone in particular. It was directed towards a particular mindset of people who are out to do what I have highlighted. As far as questioning is concerned, here is how I feel. Swami Vivekanand was asked "Is it ok to have blind faith?" He responded "Yes, provided the one you have faith in isn't blind". Now since Gurujee is the one who blesses us with divine vision, obviously He isn't blind. So why question His hukam? Who would have a problem following such a Guru blindly! Blinded by His love!

wahegurubol, like I said, ordinary people like us cannot understand the avastha of Gurmukhs like Baba Deep Singh Ji. Maybe he sat down and recited, maybe otherwise, who knows!

[wahegurubol]

Mystical Ji,

First of all Sikhi is not bound by time.

Aad Sach Jugad Sach, Hai Bhi Sach , Nanak Hosee Bhi Sach !

Secondly, There is no need to understand anything. If you think you have understood something or gained some knowledge, it will be with you only and only as long as your conscious, I mean as long as you are present in the conscious-state of mind. When you sleep or when you die your subconscius mind takes over (which is called surti) and at that time only your naam simran kamai will go with you and not your understanding.

Sikhi, is about cutting your head and giving it to the Guru.. so the question of trying ot understand doesnt exist. You have to cut your head and give it to the Guru..which is very very hard thing to do.

If you want to meet the Guru then "jeevan" ke chad aas. Remaining DEAD while yet Alive only we can meet Guru ji. All these things are beyond the understanding of the "intellectual" Mind. God is in the realm of soul , the "intellect" is there as long as you are "consciously awake".

If you listen to the Suleman tape, he says during the time of death, the understanding of the human doesnt work and at that time the subconscious mind takes over and nothing is in our control, it is like the same in sleep-state, but those who have a true Guru , the Guru comes and controls their thoughts and makes them go in a direction which is good for them.

Those who dont have a Guru can end up in a jooni.

Dear MEHTAB SINGH JI,

I agree with you , no one can understand the avastha of Gursikhs like Baba Deep Singh Ji. But I am wondering that if he sat and recited like a normal person would do.. He propbably wouldnt get more than a 50 Jap Ji paaths in a day, So I definetly think that he didnt recite the Jap Ji the way we do. I have heard of some Gursikhs that at higher stage one can hear the vibraion of naam "waheguru" inside their bodies and it goes soooo fast.. that probably millions and million times in a fewsecond.

Enlightend us more on this subject.

[Matheen]

W-bol, with abhiyas, Bani can be recited very fast with full concentration, using the 'Surti'. Sant Isher Singh Ji (Rarasahib wale) used to do over 200 JapJi Sahibs, many Jaap Sahibs while still at school. (The exact number is mentioned by them in the 'Atmik Bachan' recordings - which they revealed to inspire the sangat, check www.sikhroots.com to listen).

Similarly, Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa used to do over 101 Jap Ji Sahibs when they were younger and even perform an entire Akhand Path non stop in 24 hours, on their own. Even today, sewdars in some deras have to do 101 JapJi Sahibs everyday.

[Mystical]

Mystical Ji,

First of all Sikhi is not bound by time.

Aad Sach Jugad Sach, Hai Bhi Sach , Nanak Hosee Bhi Sach !

I believe this totally.

Secondly, There is no need to understand anything. If you think you have understood something or gained some knowledge, it will be with you only and only as long as your conscious, I mean as long as you are present in the conscious-state of mind. When you sleep or when you die your subconscius mind takes over (which is called surti) and at that time only your naam simran kamai will go with you and not your understanding.

There is every reason to understand.

This Shabad is by Guru Amar Daas Ji in Siree Raag on Pannaa 36

sreeraag mehalaa 3 ||

Siree Raag, Third Mehla:

bin gur rog n thuttee houmai peerr n jaae ||

Without the Guru, the disease is not cured, and the pain of egotism is not removed.

gur parasaadhee man vasai naamae rehai samaae ||

By Guru's Grace, He dwells in the mind, and one remains immersed in His Name.

gur sabadhee har paaeeai bin sabadhai bharam bhulaae ||1||

Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the Lord is found; without the Shabad, people wander, deceived by doubt. ||1||

man rae nij ghar vaasaa hoe ||

O mind, dwell in the balanced state of your own inner being.

raam naam saalaahi thoo fir aavan jaan n hoe ||1|| rehaao ||

Praise the Lord's Name, and you shall no longer come and go in reincarnation. ||1||Pause||

har eiko dhaathaa varathadhaa dhoojaa avar n koe ||

The One Lord alone is the Giver, pervading everywhere. There is no other at all.

sabadh saalaahee man vasai sehajae hee sukh hoe ||

Praise the Word of the Shabad, and He shall come to dwell in your mind; you shall be blessed with intuitive peace and poise.

sabh nadharee a(n)dhar vaekhadhaa jai bhaavai thai dhaee ||2||

Everything is within the Lord's Glance of Grace. As He wishes, He gives. ||2||

houmai sabhaa ganath hai ganathai no sukh naahi ||

In egotism, all must account for their actions. In this accounting, there is no peace.

bikh kee kaar kamaavanee bikh hee maahi samaahi ||

Acting in evil and corruption, people are immersed in corruption.

bin naavai t(h)our n paaeinee jamapur dhookh sehaahi ||3||

Without the Name, they find no place of rest. In the City of Death, they suffer in agony. ||3||

jeeo pi(n)dd sabh this dhaa thisai dhaa aadhhaar ||

Body and soul all belong to Him; He is the Support of all.

gur parasaadhee bujheeai thaa paaeae mokh dhuaar ||

By Guru's Grace, understanding comes, and then the Door of Liberation is found.

naanak naam salaahi thoo(n) a(n)th n paaraavaar ||4||24||57||

O Nanak, sing the Praises of the Naam, the Name of the Lord; He has no end or limitation. ||4||24||57||

[wahegurubol]

Mystical Ji, The type of understanding that Guru Jee is talking about comes by rubbing your brain with the Name of God after which you get Guru's Kirpa ! and this understanding is like "gungey ke mithai" as Bhagat Kabber Ji says, it cannot be spoken of , talked, or written on a forum.

The type of understanding that you are dealing with is only "Intellectual"---"Scholastic"---type of understanding ... this the Guru Saab has already spoken of in Gurbani is of no use as even brahmins, qazis day and night keep themselves engaged in intellectual talks and discussions ! but they are no where close to the God.

Again, Guru Saahib have created Sants like Baba Nand Singh Sahib, have created Sant-Sipahis like Sant Jarnail Singh jI and have created like scholars and intellects, this is all to guide different people in different stages towards sikhi... because everyone has a different mind !

[wahegurubol]

Mystical Ji, Baba Nand Singh Sahib je never read anything from the SGGS, but He knew the entire SGGS byheart

[Matheen]

We need scholars because they help fight our enemies 'using the pen' - e.g. when people try to convert Sikhs or try to discredit Maharaj Ji, scholars are often the first line of defence.

Very few people these days have the kamaii to do this without any study or research, which is one reason Maharaj sent the Nirmaley to study Vedant.

[Xylitol]

I think there is nothign wrong with wanting to understand. Definitely understanding the why enriches my own experience and motivation. but we should also keep in mind that when Guru Nanak Dev ji ordered sikhs to eat the dead body, Bhai Lehna ji didn't ask ''why''; but instead asked how by asking which end to start from. Bhai Lehna ji than became Guru Angad Dev ji through Pehla Patshah's grace.

[Mehtab Singh]

Dear MEHTAB SINGH JI,

I agree with you , no one can understand the avastha of Gursikhs like Baba Deep Singh Ji. But I am wondering that if he sat and recited like a normal person would do.. He propbably wouldnt get more than a 50 Jap Ji paaths in a day, So I definetly think that he didnt recite the Jap Ji the way we do. I have heard of some Gursikhs that at higher stage one can hear the vibraion of naam "waheguru" inside their bodies and it goes soooo fast.. that probably millions and million times in a fewsecond.

Enlightend us more on this subject.

Veerjee who am I to enlighten anyone. I am only stating what I have heard. Some also say that high avastha Gurmukhs have a really fast speed of reciting Bani without any mistake. So I am guessing that Baba Deep Singh Jee had such a speed as well. 50 Japji Sahibs in a day is a pretty slow speed for high avastha Gurmukhs, whereas if a manmukh like me did just 11, he would hold his head and say "ENOUGH"...lol.

[wahegurubol]

I think there is nothign wrong with wanting to understand. Definitely understanding the why enriches my own experience and motivation. but we should also keep in mind that when Guru Nanak Dev ji ordered sikhs to eat the dead body, Bhai Lehna ji didn't ask ''why''; but instead asked how by asking which end to start from. Bhai Lehna ji than became Guru Angad Dev ji through Pehla Patshah's grace.

vEER JI that is what i am try to say.. when Guru Nanak Dev ji asked to eat the dead body, bhai lehna didnt ask "why" ..he didnt try to understand. he had become like a slave of the Guru .. 100% slave of the Guru and He became Guru Nanak Himself then....

these days we have people, they want to know why we keep hair, why we create khalsa, why we take amrit.. so much understandings and gyan can ruin you.

while i agree that understanding to a certain extent and especially in the beginning stage is needed..it all depends on the stage of the sikh.

we do need scholars and intellects to get the bhatkey hoye people back to sikh panth.

thanks

[Niranjana]

quote:

The type of understanding that you are dealing with is only "Intellectual"---"Scholastic"---type of understanding ... this the Guru Saab has already spoken of in Gurbani is of no use as even brahmins, qazis day and night keep themselves engaged in intellectual talks and discussions ! but they are no where close to the God.

-----------------------------------------

This is all very well, however I am a little tired of hearing this type of argument, as it in reality does little more than dumb down the sangat into a non-questioning, blindly accepting naive group of people, which in turn leads to a whole series of totally avoidable situations that we all witness around us today.

Reality is faith has its place, however it is doubt (i.e. the ability to question, seek understanding etc) which gets you an education.

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

wahegurubol is insane. He talks about God like he knows him. Non intellectual understanding can only be discussed through an intellectual medium, which must adhere to scholarly rules otherwise you create chaos, an anything goes devlish society who hide the shit in their minds behind ideals of transcedentalism. Debasing the the ideals that are near to God, by extending the hand from the pit of negative emotions and trying to grab at the stars that stand for the pure values, which spring from the heart and have their source in god. That leprous hand cannot reach the stars but the attempt in itself represents a crime against the order of nature, the shitty should understand their shittiness only then can the rise up from the mire created in the mind.

Peace brothers, may god reveal all our shittiness in a glory of blazing light allowing us the knowledge of our baseness