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The God Delusion


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I'm sure most of us have come across the much famed Richard Dawkins and his series of scientific bestsellers, notably "The God Delusion".

Whilst Dawkins' own attitude towards creationists (not too far from the 'don't argue with fools, they only bring you down to their own level and beat you with experience'), is one that I've personally held towards most critics of religious belief, particularly in view of them typically coming from backgrounds of Abrahamic/Sematic traditions and their arguments/issues not necessarily being applicable to Dharmic/Indic traditions (for want of better terms).

That said, the below is a summarisation of Dawkins main arguments, some of which I would be interested to learn of the forum's views:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion

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I recommend a essay by sam fryman called the dawkins delusion it is available to download from the internet by anyone who has bittorrent.

It is true that religion has been responsible for much evil, but dawkins fails to realise the good aspects of religion, which are by necessity unseen, if they were seen they would not be good. The wiki article ends by quoting dawkins

"an atheistic worldview is life-affirming in a way that religion, with its unsatisfying “answers†to life’s mysteries, could never be"

By life affirming dawkins must refer to physical life, life as identified predominantly with the body. This view of life is predominant in the culture he writes out of. Life is gratification sensually with attention upon the object sensed. This meaning of life which is predominant in a world ruled by scientific ideas, is a dogma. Physicality is given prime importance. Instead of a child being discriminated because he is muslim or christian, maybe he will be discriminated because he has a funny nose or wears uncool clothes. While religious groups have solidarity amongst themselves because of shared ideals (mostly) what ideals would unite dawkins new atheistic world? This is the crux of the issue, ideas are more substantial than matter, as expressed by plato's cave allegory. Dawkins unconsciously substitutes his own ideas for the religious ones. His ideas are the epitome of chaos and dissolution because they are ghayb he does not see them, because gaoing back his culture is one that psychologically has become narrower and narrower. We are as it were at the tip of the iceberg, the tip emerges from the oceans surface but the bulk of the iceberg lies deep beneath the waters. Our culture cannot see the ideas, that we damage ourselves with.

Religion had an esoteric aspect which allowed gifted individuals to dive into the ocean and see the iceberg. These individuals guided communities as much as they could. Now dawkins culture has no esoteric allowance not even in opposition to the culture, it obliterates it totally it is a real killer of the soul. With the new age bullshit in every religion this cancerous culture has even made the esoteric exoteric, which is a crime I boil in rage against. God has nothing to do with it, each man makes his own god in mans image dawkins god is a blind watchmaker, which adequately portrays dawkins own mind, he is blindly writing.

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Shaheediyan are you speaking from experience? Have you experienced god in everything have you drawn out the gold thread from the objective world and spun yourself a cloak of immortality?

If you are not speaking from experience you words mean nothing, you are just a parrot repeating things.

I see a difference i can't see god in bad things because of my weakness, so i cannot say god has everything to do with, as i do not feel this with my being. I can only understand on an intellectual level from reading bani. This means little if it is not brought into your life and living.

PLease refrain from your brand of arrogant neutralism it is annoying.

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Speaking from experience, plus the fact that Maharaj Ji clearly states it, God does "have everything to do with it".

Frankly the ignorance about Gurbani (which is our Guru, after all) and the perceived arrogance after having read a few books is amazing.

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Frankly the ignorance about Gurbani (which is our Guru, after all) and the perceived arrogance after having read a few books is amazing.

We can all read here, but are you capable of critical analysis or do you just attribute meanings to Gurbani in order to make your own agenda and opinions so sacrosanct that anyone who disagrees with you is heretic?

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Nah singho, i don't mind being disagreed with. What does disturb me is when people 'talk-back' at Guru Sahib. I KNOW that a Sikh has to give everything to his Guru for success on this path, including the mind.

As i said in another post, when it comes to 'worldly' matters such as history etc, then a critical mind IS necessary to find the truth, but Gurbani should be accepted without question.

Whether you do or don't is not my problem.

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"I can only understand on an intellectual level from reading bani"

Hukmee utam neech hukam likh dukh sukh paaeeah||

"If you are not speaking from experience you words mean nothing"

Veer ji, like everyone else, I have experienced my fair share of pain - and I do totally believe that as per my Satguru's pure words, that pain served a purpose - it helps us to see life in a different way, to learn from our mistakes, to avoid future mistakes, to search for answers, to put life into context and re-prioritise.

It is this "badness" that people experience that brings them closer to God.

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yes yes of course but i was talking about the ending of pain, when i say i cannot see god in bad things i mean feel know and act god, stop reducing things to your bland intellectual level, to experience pain and learn from it is absolutely correct but this not the state where you extract raas from situations which were previously painful. I am talking of an incremental blossoming of real-ness which renders previous painful objective experiences painless. I learned whilst at school that suffering is the best class. It is amazing how people interpret things according to their own little world, what chance of sangat is there when people don't want to see out.

Understanding that pain is good and that it takes you nearer to god is only a small step on a long road. Actually in reality dealing with pain and neutralising it is a very hard task.

You said god has everything to do with it, is god pain? In reality if you knew god done everything why would you need to learn from your pain, there would be no pain.

My issue is not with gurbani saying god is everything, i agree with this, if shaheediyan had said my guru says etc. etc. i could not argue with anything, but he didn't, so he is fair game.

As you can see applying values that we all love and cherish is the only thing of value. dawkins denies god because of the hypocrisy he sees in religion but maybe he has not been told god is everything. If he was told this than he maybe would think yes god is everything and write a book called the atheist delusion. Simply being told this fact i am sure would revolutionise his consciousness without any hard work.

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"yes yes of course but i was talking about the ending of pain, when i say i cannot see god in bad things i mean feel know and act god, stop reducing things to your bland intellectual level, to experience pain and learn from it is absolutely correct but this not the state where you extract raas from situations which were previously painful."

First of all, kindly ease off with the attacks, I have done nothing to hurt your feelings. The only people that hark on about intellect are those that have a complex with theirs.

In response, yes you are right, learning from pain is one thing and "enjoying" or understanding it as per Guru Arjun Dev Ji's qurbani or those of his countless Sikhs, is completely different.

Learning from it does actually provide the foundation for understanding pain and therefore realising it's purpose in the present and future. It is this realisation, however you choose to understand it (could be understood as an opportunity to prove your devotion/love, understood as test of devotion or understood as a necessary sacrifice for the greater good) which ultimately leads one to savour pain.

I am by no means saying I have reached this level, I have somewhat experienced and at the least, do understand it through historical and real examples of many individuals.

"if shaheediyan had said my guru says etc. etc. i could not argue with anything, but he didn't, so he is fair game"

To further explain my previous points re the purpose of pain, refer to my Guru:

Jaa dukh laagai taa tujhai samaalee. ||1|| rahaa­o

One also needs "faith" alongside understanding to remove pain:

Aapnaa dharam gavaaveh bujheh naahee an­din dukh vihaanee||

Regarding the removal of pain (which also means acceptance of it or removal of the concept of pain from ones mind, whatever you will):

Gur kai bhaanai jo chalai dukh na paavai ko­e. ||3||

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you talk about learning from pain, yet you start crying "ease off with the attacks i haven't done nuthin to you" like a little child. Then you add a veiled insult saying the only people who have a complex with their intellect are those who go on about it. Well i might well have who knows. i cuss only through what you write, how can you face pain when you get upset when a sado internet poster starts having a go at your internet personality "oh please stop attacking me!"

Learning from it does actually provide the foundation for understanding pain and therefore realising it's purpose in the present and future. It is this realisation, however you choose to understand it (could be understood as an opportunity to prove your devotion/love, understood as test of devotion or understood as a necessary sacrifice for the greater good) which ultimately leads one to savour pain.

no no non no no oh pagi to savour pain pain is still there it is pain. How do you make pain non-pain you are not going deep. how can mind never be associated with pain, not see pain and feel the good side of pain which goes with the bad side also (every stick has two ends) you see 2 men in paralell universes may experience the same painful experience, one holds the good end of pain and savours it and comes closer to god, the takes the bad end and becomes associated with the darkness of anger and resentment and other negativities. What i am saying is to become real where the good end and bad end are known the stick is known in its entireity, but i'll say no more you just want gratify yourself anyway, by coming on this forum you don't want to learn you just want to reinforce your personality.

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Listen little child, I asked you to chill out because believe it or not, no one likes conversing with a scurrilous philistine.

I was asking you to be polite, you had no reason to start offending.

There's no point pretending you are interested in transcendental religious experience when you have not mastered basic respectful mannersim.

Kindly concentrate on the topic in hand and not my "internet" personality.

Please respond to the words I have quoted from Guru Maharaj.

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We are going off topic here folks:

here is a (i think) very balanced 35min discussion with a Bishop Harries from the UK.

Richard Dawkins have collaborated on several occasions to promote the proper teaching of science in UK classrooms. This is the full unedited interview, which was originally filmed by IWC for the Channel Four documentary 'Root or All Evil?'

http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2007..._dawkins_8.html

or

http://onegoodmovemedia.org/movies/0704/dawkins.mov

Richard Dawikns has also debated Deepak Chopra which i don't think many of you will like as there is a general anti-new-age thought with some users.

here is a small discussion with deepak.

http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2007..._of_reas_2.html

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