My Reversion to Shi'ism

[Bahadur Ali]

deepsingh:

please try to think it the other way around

We Shi'as don't actively seek conversions unlike Sunnis.Again think before you open your mouth! We don't care about you people!

[tonyhp32]

Bahadur Ali,

Thankfully you have given up the idea of keeping the name Bahadur Ali Singh which would have created more confusion. I don't personally have any problems with your reversion to Islam of whatever variety best suits you. Your conversion is your own business but it become the business of Sikhs if you misrepresent Guru Nanak and Sikhi in order to justify your conversion. This is why so much has been written on this thread as well as others. During all our discussions I had always thought that I was debating with a Muslim and not a Sikh let alone an Amritdhari Sikh. Converts come in two types, those who do not bring any of their previous religious beliefs to their new religion and those who being in a bagload. The former immerse themselves in every facet of their new found religion and attempt to follow it fully. The latter come to their new religion with an arrogant attitude and bring all their previous beliefs and biases into the new religion. I am sure that most of the people who know you will recognise you as the latter. One of the first things your did on Shia chat was to curse the four Kalifas of the Sunnis, which in many cases is a Shia trait but your cursing of these Kalifas was such that even the Shiachat mods had to warn you to tone it dowe. In those first few introductory posts on Shiachat you also referred to AKJ as Bas*ards. Now you can understand why many Sikhs might be taken aback and utterly surprised that a Sikh who claims to be an Amritdhari Nirmala would go on a Shia forum to curse the four Kalifas whom Sunni Muslims hold dear. You post about hate and how the Punjabi Sikh community is tribal and non-accepting of outsiders like you. But can you see where your argument fails, if you yourself are so eager to curse others, putting aside the fact that cursing anyone is a totally contary to the Gurus teachings, even those others who have nothing to do with your Sikhi. On that forum you also stated that you are an Alim of the Sikh community which was patently false and apt to give the Shias on that forum the wrong notion that they were debating with someone who was an authority on Sikhism. You were never accepted as an Alim by anyone apart from a few Sanatanis. Even they seemed to get revolted later on when you theories about Sikhi became more and more ridiculous.

It was clear from the outset that you still held deeply entrenched Shia views even though you had taken Amrit and claimed to be a Nirmala. You get the hand that is dealt with according to your Karams, you were always meant to be a Shia but for a number of years you pretended to be a Sikh by taking on the appearance of a Nirmala. Ironically enough one of the Shias on that forum even thought that given your Shia views expressed on that forum and your personal description of yourself as a Sikh that maybe you might be a Shia practicising Takiyah or deception amongst the Sikhs. Even though you denied it then but you have to admit that indeed was ironic. As someone has pointed out was the fact that you were one of the most vociferous members when it came to calling AKJ and Singh Sabha as Ram Raias and yet you are the one who has become a Bemukh while the people you called Ram Raias are still traversing the Gurmat Gaddi Rah. Irony indeed!

You wrote that 90% of Gurdwaras are funded by the lottery! As usual your comments are high on rhetoric and low on facts. A few Gurdwaras have taken lottery funding but do you really need to be so harsh on them? Such harshness can only come from someone with a warped sense of morality because in your view gambling is a big sin (haram) but paying a women for a temporary marriage which may last until copulation is an 'act' of God (halal). You might want to take a trip to the Shia 'holy' city of Qom now that you are in Iran and take the delights of Shia life. I hear that theres a new batch of girls for the use of the seminary students to take part in sigheh. Now do you really want to discuss Haram and Halal?

You have also claimed that the Khalsa and the Rehat is anti-Islam. I will accept that some of the rehats given in the Rehatnamas are not too appreciative of Islam. But given that the Khalsa twice in its history was publically proclaimed by the government of the day to have been wiped out then is it any great surprise that some of the Rehats asks Sikhs not to trust Muslims, not to eat Halal meat etc? If something like 99% of a community is wiped out by Muslims and please do not come up with the revisionist nonsense that only the Mughals persecuted the Sikhs, it was the common Muslims who went into the jungles to hunt down Sikhs for price money, can you blame them for a little bit of distain for Islam? Not that the Rehats are as hyper as some of the Islamic hadiths, I mean 'don't trust a Muslim' is not exactly in the same league as 'rape captured enemy women' But then this is a purely Muslim trait which you have inherited. Muslims bomb the underground, people avoid Muslims, People say my Islam is violent, Muslims accuse them of being racist Islamophobes! or the best one, Pope says Islam is violent, Muslims attack nuns and western compounds to prove the Pope wrong. The Punjabi Sikh community has a long way to fall if it is ever to aspire to the depths of the Muslim community. During the Afghan invasions the common Punjabi Muslims only changed their attitude to the Khalsa when the Afghans started to rape and pillage regardless of religion. Now whilst your Portugese ancestors were destroying the native cultures of South America and forcibly converting Hindus in Goa to Catholicism, the Khalsa was involved in a life and death struggle with the Muslims. You can come up with all your fancy theories about Shias marching against Abdali when he attacked Harmandir Sahib but even the most illiterate Punjabi Sikh would be hard put out to believe such fairy tales. It's a bit rich you claiming that the Khalsa is fixated on being anti-Islamic when the Islamic world even the Shias can't forget the crusades which happened 600 years ago and affected perhaps less than 10% of the Muslims at that time. Who is fixated now? Who are the ones who can't move on? Even richer is the harshness against the Punjabi Sikhs when all they may be doing is, contary to Gurbani avoiding you and not getting involved in your theories. Most Punjabis would rather avoid people with whom they have no sense of solidarity. A Punjabi Sikh would be more comfortable with a mona than with a gora especially one who has warped views. That's a fact of life. You may believe that your Iranian friends will now accept you and chances are they will but no one in this day and age has the time or even the inclination to mollycuddle a convert and cater to their whims all day. I hope you do not find that to your detriment.

You have written a lot of personal details on this forum and it is hyprocritical for you then to criticise others when they discuss something that have written about. There is no doubt that you were in many cases badly treated by the Punjabi Sikhs, but can you with you with hand on heart really say that it was not a two way street. You came to Sikhi criticising the Akali movement for reforming the Gurdwaras, you wrote that Sikh men and women in pre-British Punjab would go to a barber to shave off their pubic hair this particular gem was based on something another scholar friend told you at university! You also wrote that women who take Amrit are becoming a third gender! So how many women have you abused just with that comment? I could continue this list but I am sure the forum members who may not have any read your previous posts will get a gist of what have written. Your latest theory of Guru Nanak being a Shia is the one when most members on this forum, at least those that knew you well would have taken as your final break with Sikhi. Most people had got used to your make believe world of the Khalsa being a continuation of Shia chivilary orders but what you wrote about Guru Nanak was a pure blasphemy.

Some people might take the above as a personal attack but since you have attacked an entire community then I think it is time that people realise that there are two sides to every story.

I have one final piece of advice, you need to tone down any theories that you might now develop about Shia Islam. You were able to get away with a lot of ridiculous theories wbout Sikhi but for your own good you need to realise that the Muslims are not that tolerant. Anyway good luck in your religion and I hope all goes well for you.

[tonyhp32]

I had no idea about this lottery funding of UK sanatans.. it puts the provocative sarbloh.info website and shastarvidiya.org with its unlawful threats of GBH ('hadh torh') in an entirely different light.. Totally fake UK government project and then they have the gall to say Angrez malesh da Sikhi demons in khalsa nation fight against fake Sikhs blah blah bullshit. Screw you guys! UK government Fakes.

Spare us the fake indignation my friend. Again typically warped sense of morality. Lottery funding bad, religiously sanctioned prostitution (sigheh) good!

[deepsingh]

Deepsingh:

Indifferent could have other meanings to, you can say indifferent not to hurt a another person , philosophically speaking.

No it doesn't have that meaning and no you can't say that. That's incorrect English.

[deepsingh]

it's like talking to wall now. Anyways good luck with shia/suunni/wahabi stuff.

We are not trying to bring you back to sikhi, but was just looking for one solid reason for your conversion. Which I have failed to comprehend. And I still consider you a western hip-hopper of religion who might have an personality disorder.

[tonyhp32]

I think Javanmard has raised some excellent questions on the concept of Sikhi in regards to:

-the true definition of Haram Halal

-The lack of systems regarding economic, state affairs etc(a sharia is missing) and hereby going on to Whether Sikhi was really intended to be a religion, or rather a spiritiual level for hindues,muslims christians and others to join.

etc...

Under whose definition of what constitutes a religion should we take in order to come to a conclusion about Sikhi? Does Sikhi need definitions from a Semitic or Indic background?

The Gurus envisioned a Sikhi that would cater to the spiritual needs of the Sikhs and did not think that their followers would need religion to guide them about which way to wipe their butts after going to the toilet? or how many stones to use to wipe their butts?

Times change and one type of economic system might not suit each and every age.

The Gurus were wise enough to leave the economic sphere to what is best for that given time as long as it doesn't infringe the tenets of Sikhi. Politically the Gurus have defined Halemi Raj as ideal. The rule for the benefit of all. The Panj Pyare system is a respresentative system based around either a democratic or nominative system. The danger of keeping having a political system suited to a desert environment in the 7th century and casting it in stone has meant that no woman can ever become the the leader of an Islamic state. Those that have done so have faced the might of the religious establishment. The bombing of Benazir Bhutto in which over 100 people were killed was because someone had written 1400 years ago that a woman should not be allowed to become the leader of an Islamic state.

[Bahadur Ali]

deepsingh:

And I still consider you a western hip-hopper of religion who might have an personality disorder.

If you have a problem with Westeners... I think you know what you need to do.

Muta' is not prostitution and not all Shi'as believe in it. In Iran prostitution has nothing to do with muta' because muta' is regulated by the government to precisely avoid its abuse.

The fact that a woman can't rule is not a matter of consensus in Shi'a fiqh. There are indeed scholars who have declared it legal for a woman to be the leader of a country.

deepsingh:

Deepsingh:

Quote: ‹ Select ›

Indifferent could have other meanings to, you can say indifferent not to hurt a another person , philosophically speaking.

No it doesn't have that meaning and no you can't say that. That's incorrect English.

You consider your self a scholar, have you read walt whitman's works.

[tonyhp32]

Bahadur Ali,

If countering your misrepresentation of Guru Nanak is barking then bark I must and as often as I can!

You seem to have a very short memory. I am only responsible for what I do and not what you think my friends or people you assume to be my friends do or do not do. I only ever sent you one PM on which I said that your gora arse would be kicked. If you take that to have been a threat then take it as such. You claim to not have threatened me, you are joking aren't you? I know you've been a Muslim a few months but I would have thought that it would be some time before you take on their trait of lying. What happened at the Niddar Singh talk? You accused me of having put you photo on the net which I did not. The only personal information I posted about you was when you told someone that you are not a gora and I told them you were.

Your comment on 1857 is uncalled for. Such comments as yours just show how difficult it is for a person of a different culture and religion to totally understand the history and culture of the religion they are joining. I think I made this comment before. FYI the Sikhs fought for the British for a number of reasons, one being a sense of seeking revenge on the Purbias who had just a decade earlier robbed and looted the Punjab. The other was to stop the reconstitution of the Mughal empire which has killed lakhs of Sikhs. Your revisionist history would make even an ardent Hindu RSS scholar ashamed. Do you really think that the Sikhs would have made common cause with the Mughals and Purbias? Now that really would have been a paindu thing to do wouldn't it. A bit like the Jews helping to resurrect the Nazi regime in 1945!

I see that you have not addressed any of my other views where I showed that you were the one who came in with a bagload of dodgy views into Sikhi. Calling one section of the religion you are joining as bast*rds doesn't really bode well for your time in that religion.

The muta marriage comment was to show that the morality of some people is very subjective. If prostitution is clothed as a religious act then for those types of people there is nothing wrong in it. Having the government act as the pimp is hardly a defence!

Anyway I don't know to make this a personal argument. I told you during our PM exchange that I felt that what some of the sanatanists had done to you was very wrong.

[Bahadur Ali]

Bikkie said:

If countering your misrepresentation of Guru Nanak is barking then bark I must and as often as I can!

I am glad you finally admit you're a dog!

[akalisodhi]

give him 5 years....

he'll get bored and roll on back....and we'll all be debating his newest conversion to another random faith

[Mehtab Singh]

give him 5 years....

he'll get bored and roll on back....and we'll all be debating his newest conversion to another random faith

This is not fair. You repeated my comment. I demand compensation.

LOL just kidding yaar

[tonyhp32]

I think this thread has run it's course. Time for those who were so eager to talk up Bahadur as some kind of authority on Sikhi to reassess their views.

[Mehtab Singh]

Bhagat Kabeer Ji in Raag Raamkalee on Ang 969

sMqw mwnau dUqw fwnau ieh kutvwrI myrI ]

sa(n)thaa maano dhoothaa ddaano eih kuttavaaree maeree ||

I honor and obey the Saints, and punish the wicked; this is my duty as God's police officer.

idvs rYin qyry pwau plosau kys cvr kir PyrI ]1]

dhivas rain thaerae paao paloso kaes chavar kar faeree ||1||

Day and night, I wash Your feet, Lord; I wave my hair as the chauree, to brush away the flies. ||1||

hm kUkr qyry drbwir ]

ham kookar thaerae dharabaar ||

I am a dog at Your Court, Lord.

Baukih AwgY bdnu pswir ]1] rhwau ]

bhoukehi aagai badhan pasaar ||1|| rehaao ||

I open my snout and bark before it. ||1||Pause||

pUrb jnm hm qum@ry syvk Ab qau imitAw n jweI ]

poorab janam ham thumharae saevak ab tho mittiaa n jaaee ||

In my past life, I was Your servant; now, I cannot leave You.

qyry duAwrY Duin shj kI mwQY myry dgweI ]2]

thaerae dhuaarai dhhun sehaj kee maathhai maerae dhagaaee ||2||

The celestial sound current resounds at Your Door. Your insignia is stamped upon my forehead. ||2||

dwgy hoih su rn mih jUJih ibnu dwgy Big jweI ]

dhaagae hohi s ran mehi joojhehi bin dhaagae bhag jaaee ||

Those who are branded with Your brand fight bravely in battle; those without Your brand run away.

swDU hoie su Bgiq pCwnY hir ley KjwnY pweI ]3]

saadhhoo hoe s bhagath pashhaanai har leae khajaanai paaee ||3||

One who becomes a Holy person, appreciates the value of devotional worship to the Lord. The Lord places him in His treasury. ||3||

koTry mih koTrI prm koTI bIcwir ]

kot(h)arae mehi kot(h)aree param kot(h)ee beechaar ||

In the fortress is the chamber; by contemplative meditation it becomes the supreme chamber.

guir dInI bsqu kbIr kau lyvhu bsqu sm@wir ]4]

gur dheenee basath kabeer ko laevahu basath samhaar ||4||

The Guru has blessed Kabeer with the commodity, saying, ""Take this commodity; cherish it and keep it secure.""||4||

kbIir dIeI sMswr kau lInI ijsu msqik Bwgu ]

kabeer dheeee sa(n)saar ko leenee jis masathak bhaag ||

Kabeer gives it to the world, but he alone receives it, upon whose forehead such destiny is recorded.

AMimRq rsu ijin pwieAw iQru qw kw sohwgu ]5]4]

a(n)mrith ras jin paaeiaa thhir thaa kaa sohaag ||5||4||

Permanent is the marriage, of one who receives this ambrosial essence. ||5||4||

[Mehtab Singh]

I think this thread has run it's course. Time for those who were so eager to talk up Bahadur as some kind of authority on Sikhi to reassess their views.

The only authority on Sikhi is Dhann Dhann Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj. Even a Singh/Kaur who is strict and firm in their Rehit will never even by mistake claim to be an authority on Sikhi. So yes, as tonyhp32 veer said, rather than seeing a person as such, everyone should recognize only Dhann Dhann Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj as the single authority in their life.

[deepsingh]

deepsingh:

Stop making yourself look ridiculous. Look at your sentence:

"you can say indifferent not to hurt a another person"

your syntax makes no sense at all!

Now your being stupid beyond belief-you know exactly what i meant.

You consider your self a scholar

"You can't even spell yourself properly...."

LOL --Look at how you spell " Westeners" -- no need to apologize.

Like I said before, We are not trying to bring you back to sikhi, but was just looking for one solid reason for your conversion. Which I have failed to comprehend. other than your biased hate towards the punjabi community.

Why do you pick and choose what questions you want to answer. My opinion about you being a westerner hip-hopper of religion, came from what you have stated on this thread and that is the impression your leaving with us.

[Bahadur Ali]

Ok deepsingh you call me the hip-hopper of religions because I jump from one religion to the other. Now for the pindoo you are here is the difference between a grasshopper and a hip-hopper:

This Mr Pindoo is a grasshopper:

and these are hip-hoppers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz7-EYqHz2g

(my salaams to the Denmark crew!)

Now deepsingh if you compare me to a hip-hopper that's ok some are really cool.

And if it's a grasshopper you had in mind even better. They have tendency to jump to better and greener fields. I have jumped from the desert of the Sikh community to the green fields of Tashayuh...

Mehtab Singh you should seriously consider a career in Tehran as a parot fortune teller. You have these guys who use a parrot to pick up a poem from Hafez for a few tomams. The way you use Maharaj's gurbani for any occasion is truly blasphemous.

All you people are becoming is a tribe like the Gurkhas fit to join the British Army to serve your white masters. You have lost your spirituality ages ago.

[deepsingh]

Lol- your are really a silly guy you responses get stupider each time you reply.

What kind of crazy guy are you, where did say anything about grass hoppers. You need to clear up all the B.S. that is stuck in your head.

Once again you have proved my point where you pick and choose?

Like I said before, We are not trying to bring you back to sikhi, but was just looking for one solid reason for your conversion. Which I have failed to comprehend. other than your biased hate towards the punjabi community.

[Bahadur Ali]

You can't comprehend because you're a pindoo!

[Mehtab Singh]

Mehtab Singh you should seriously consider a career in Tehran as a parot fortune teller. You have these guys who use a parrot to pick up a poem from Hafez for a few tomams. The way you use Maharaj's gurbani for any occasion is truly blasphemous.

I'd rather be employed in the court of Dasmesh Pita Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee Maharaj as His dog. All this temporary and Persian currency wealth is mubarak to you. And no I have not committed blasphemy, as I was stressing on tony veer's point that we Sikhs are indeed Gurujee's dogs, and would love to remain so forever. Blasphemy is calling Gurujee lower than a Rasool and an Imam, which contradicts Gurbani as well. I never ever have and never ever will do that. And yes I will quote Gurbani at every occasion because a Sikh's life revolves around Gurbani. No way is that blasphemy. But you wouldn't understand that, would you.

I thought you wanted to be left alone, which is why I didn't bother responding to you, and responded only to other posters, and didn't even bother adding you to msn after you sent me a pm asking me to add you for a chat. Why are you hesitant to speak up here? What is it that you don't want to talk about on here and want to chat on msn? Sorry I am not interested. You can't have things always your way buddy. I sent you probably 1 or 2 pm's like past 2 months asking about Islam, and those were pretty much general questions. You didn't bother replying. And now since the tables have turned, we have nothing more left to talk as both sides have clarified their stand. You didn't respond when I had questions. Now there is nothing left to ask or talk about. You could very well think that I am "scared" to talk to you if that makes you feel better LOL! But chatting on msn is the last thing that could scare even a chicken, forget about scaring the slaves of SatGuru Jee.

Be consistent in what you say. You say Gurmukh and hypocrite at the same time, you say you dislike Punjabi Sikhs, then you say you are indifferent to them, you say you want to be left alone, and then you yourself start communicating again and ask for more by asking to be added to msn. You say you don't bother about what Punjabi Sikhs think, so why did you start this thread in the first place? If you are not bothered, why did the fact that your "reversion" news was all over the net concern you so much? Make up your mind.

No we don't subscribe to any white master. 93 out of 121 who were hanged by the British were Sikhs. 66% of Azad Hind Fauj started by Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose were Sikhs. Majority who were shaheed at Jallianwala Bagh were Sikhs. The reasons behind why Sikhs sided with the British in 1857 have been clarified by tony veer already.

This is getting boring now. I think all of us have bid you farewell more than once and wished you enough luck in future. Are you seeking attention or what? Or is it a guilt that makes you post messages so that you can console yourself that you did the right thing? If you are so firm about what you've done (which you say you are), then just get on with life man. You don't have to prove anything to anyone. The reason why your "reversion" made a "big news" was because you (again, as claimed by you) were supposedly an "alim", a "Sikh scholar". Not only have you lost all your credibility by going back on your words ("I will never become a Shia"), but all the stuff you've been preaching about has become questionable even by those who look up to you (referring to the ones left with sanity).

I hope the mods/admins realize that this thread doesn't need to go on for a week as initially planned, as everyone has had a chance to say their share. It is pretty obvious that neither you, nor any of us are going to budge from the stand that we hold. You say you don't intend to convert anyone (hopefully this time you won't go back on these words), and we definitely don't intend to make you want to come back into Sikhi, as that is solely in Gurujee's hands, and we are not going to market/sell Sikhi as some people of other religions do to their faiths.

[Bahadur Ali]

You guys started it not me. It was you guys who posted the news on the Sikh forums you losers. Don't complain about stuff you have provoked yourself.

[Mehtab Singh]

A so-called "Sikh scholar", a self-proclaimed "alim" "reverts" to his "core" religion, and you think Sikh forums wouldn't have that as news? If you think so, guess who is the loser then? LOL!

[Bahadur Ali]

You are.

[Mehtab Singh]

Hahahahahaha!!

awwwwww!!!!!

[Bahadur Ali]

You really have no idea of what you guys have done haven't you?

[Mehtab Singh]

Do you?