If an amritdhari

[Matheen]

Your example of the 5 Pyare doesn't make sense when applied to the cases you mention. Like someone eloquently stated in another thread - God didn't make us so stupid that we need to be told how to wipe our backsides.

Guru ji has explained how to live - if one doesn't live in that way he is not Khalsa, end of.

Do you know how UK law is derived? It's all through precedence based on the decisions of Judges through the ages. We have the 5 Pyare, the decision they make is respected.

When compared to Sharia or other systems, I know which one i prefer.

[Matheen]

5 Pyare have divine, God given authority - provided they are true Pyare / Gursikhs.

[Kavita]

So you are relying on human authority basically. That's all I needed to know.Thanks.

[kirpa_karo]

who says a tankhaah is worse than a kurehat - just because you have to retake amrit again doesnt mean that its worse

Look at the kurehats - they relate to the physical body - and the amrit ceremney is essentially a physical ceremoney.

1) Smoking

2)Eatin halaal

3) Commiting adultery

4) Cutting hair

They are are attached to the physical body and therefore to keep this physical pureness intact amrit is administered again.

However tankhaahs go further than this - with a tankhaah your are given a spiritual punishment becuase you have seriously damaged your soul.

being patit is no higher than a tankhaaeeyaa - because you are warned to avoid both.

[shaheediyan]

"So you are relying on human authority basically. That's all I needed to know.Thanks."

We are relying on the authority that the Maharaj Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji bestowed. The authority that he himself submitted to.

Below that we rely on the authority of the law of the land we live in as productive, peaceful and contributory citizens - as long as it does not contradict or challenge the path of the Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Not having restricted, narrow and outdated laws, Sikhs are free to choose where they wish to live and which laws to follow there of (as long as they don't contradict Gurbani or Rehit). Sikhs can also help contribute in the evolving and ever changing law systems around the world - gurmat and conscience prevail for a Sikh.

The same is true for the millions of Muslims or Jews living in the west who choose the law of the land over their own historic legal systems, and all are happy to do so, or they would have moved back to an Islamic state.

[Kavita]

Who's talking about Islam or Judaism here. All I see is that you are ready to put important decisions in the hands of five people and their judgements even though you have no proof whatsoever that what they decide is divinely inspired. The case of the two groups of panj pyare just shows how unreliable that system is.

[wahegurubol]

So... technically if you eat a kebab you're a manmukh but if you kill your father you can still be khalsa?

First of all.. Amrit can never be broken. It can never become Khandit. Yes even if you commit the 4 bujjet kurehits.. Your amrit is never broken.

Because if your amrit breaks , then that what you had taken was not amrit.

Amrit means immortality. Amrit means that which cannot be destroyed. Amrit mean that which cannot be broken.

This is why we say "WE TOOK AMRIT FROM THE GURU."

So once a person becomes amritdhari, he becomes Guru-wala. The duty of the Guru is to deliver that person out of the cycle of birth and rebirth. Even after death the Guru will always be with such a person. It is the duty of the Guru, this is why a Guru is called Guru (dispeller of darkness)

A person can do several bujjer kurehits over his life time.. a person can do several illegal stuff. He will get punished for it for sure... but ultimately he will get delivered by the Guru.

A child can do several wrong things in life, a child can steal, lie ... but the mother will ultimately change the habits of the child, this is the duty of the mother. The mother will not see the merits-demerits of the child.

But a child who is without a mother, can do several bad things in life, but since the child has no mother... the child will not get delivered.

So a person may do several bajjer kurehits and if he realises his/her mistake then that person can pesh infront of the panj pyare or do ardaas and continue to follow the way of the khalsa botherhood.

A person may kill his father as kavita said, still that person upon realising his/her mistake can pesh infront of panj pyare or simply ask forgiveness in front of SGGS and can continue to live the way he is suppose to live keeping his rehat.

We can several wrong things in life.. kurehits or non-kurehits... but then when we realise our mistakes we can say "I wish to start life the way I had left it back when I was khalsa"..... and thats fine.

The Bajjar Kuraits are the four basic things that which we MUST avoid in life.

Namely, eating meat, sex outside marriage, cutting hair, and intoxicants.

Yes there are other things also which we MUST avoid... but everything cant be put into writing.

In all cases... once you have taken amrit. it wont die. cos amrit is amrit !

by drinking amrit one becomes immortal... so not in this life-time but maybe in more lifetimes, the person who was once amritdhari will surely get delivered out the cycle of death-rebirth.

[Kavita]

You are discussing ethics and liturgy. This is a discussion on jurisprudence.

[Xylitol]

wahegurubol, i've never heard what you're saying anywhere. of course you have to see the punj again for bujjer kurhaits. if you don't believe me, go ask any mahapurkhs.

[kirpa_karo]

u havent answered to my post sri kavita jio

[shaheediyan]

“you have no proof whatsoever that what they decide is divinely inspired. The case of the two groups of panj pyare just shows how unreliable that system is.â€

There is plenty of proof, the strongest being that all the facets of the panth believe in the authority of the Panj Pyare as historically passed down over generations in different schools of thought. In addition many historical sources evidence the authority of the Panj Pyare i.e. the sakhi of Chamkaur, and the sakhi of the Pirs grave, not forgetting some historical accounts of 1699.

With all due respect, your example of 2 groups of Panj Pyare is stupid, why would someone go to a 2nd group of Panj Pyare when they have already been advised by the 1st?

It’s like saying someone would go to get amrit a 2nd time from another jathaa just to make sure?

[amardeep]

what is the incident of the pirs grave? i have never heard of this.

on a side-note it should be said that neither the rehitnama of Bhai Desa Singh, Bhai Nand Lal, Bhai Prahlad rai nor bhai daya singh mentions anything about the word "thankha"... it is only to be found in the rehitnamas of Bhai Chaupai singh.

[Niranjana]

If one looks into rehitnama literature it will become apparent that the term "Bujjar Kurehit" is a relatively recent innovation, historically one had rehit and kurehit.

It is questionable that the punj pyare ever served as a legal authority, however in any event, rehit and legal jurisprudence are two different items.

[Niranjana]

Let's cut to the chase.

Kavita and amardeep, let us, for the time being, agree to work with your argument, i.e. the Rehitnama is silent on matters such as murdering one's father or spouse, hence either

(1) this is, as you repeatedly suggest, implying that one is still a member of the "Brotherhood" provides no explicit rehit items are violated, even though one has committed murder.

and/or (2), the Khalsa must default to some other legal system to assess such matters and to use the example of murdering one's father or spouse, assess if this in addition to whatever sentence is passed down say in secular courts of law, the guilty person also needs to be removed from the Panth.

With the above in mind, please could you continue with your arguments as to the implications thereafter as you see things.

Thanks,

Niranjana.

[wahegurubol]

Kavita ji, you once told me that your dad wants to convert to islam and hes amritdhari.... is there something you are thinking about it?

[tonyhp32]

Nice to see some old sajjans are back on the forum.

The question itself doesn't make sense because it assumes that the Khalsa has a whole set of laws and regulations that will deal with each and everything minute situation that he or she will find themselves in. If you want to be told how and with which hand to wipe your butt and if the stones(!) used should be an odd or even number or whether peeing standing up is recommended or sitting down for a pee like a woman is best then Islam has the answers. By the way peeing like a woman is best according to Islam! If your aim is to increase your spirituality and use your God given common sense then Sikhism is best for you. Our old Sajjan/Sajjani Kavita Rano says that common sense changes over time! My God she's hit the nail on the head.. exactly! Because each and every situation will be viewed different at different times. In the olden days it was thought of as common sense that witches existed and they were killed. Islamic 'divine' law says that you should kill a homosexual by, and here it beggers belief that some Imams actually sat down and decided which was the best way, either by throwing him off a mountain or by having a wall fall onto him! I think the 'divine' law was so advanced that it took into account that in the future a Muslim mght be living in Holland or Belgium and might be hard pressed to find a mountain in his local area! Now chances are you won't find a witch burning in even the most roughest areas of London but you might be able to watch a homosexual being flung off a mountain in some part of Islamic world. So which is better the legal system which has evolved over the years taking into account the intellect and rational thinking that man has made over the years or a legal system that is stuck in the mentality of the 7th century?

Legal systems always evolve and even though some Muslims might not say so they know that their 'divine' law will need to envolve if they do not want to remain the laughing stock of the world!

The above examples aren't being given in order to downgrade anyone's belief but to show that when ones goe the legalistic way and that legalistic way will always be frozen in the age and beliefs of the era when it was first thought up then one will always be well behind the people who use common sense to decide the way they handle things.

There are a number of ways to look at this-;

The Rehat specifies the Bajjar Kurehats and these are the things which takes one out of Khalsa. One could argue that well it doesn't says don't kill your father but then again the Gurus were inclined to believe that their followers knew that one shouldn't kill ones dad. The Rehat Maryada also doesn't say anything about not jumping off a cliff, again the Gurus trusted that their followers would have a certain minimum IQ level. The people who think that they need to be told in no uncertain terms and be provided with chapter and verse not to kill their dad's were perhaps best left to join legalistic faiths until they had progressed spiritually enough to know without being told that killing your dad is a definate no no. No offence to the person asking the question but the mindset of wanting to have an answer for everything given on a plate or perhaps in a text is not the mindset of a spiritually awakened person. We had a guy come on our forum once whose argument was that Islam is the 'truth' and Sikhism is 'false' because among other things Islam gave an answer of when it is permissible to set off a nuclear bomb and the best way to ride a horse! That idiot thought that he could get hold of some Imam's fatwas and because Sikhs are not in the habit of asking absurd questions such as these then chances are that Sikhs would have the 'divinely' guided Sharia answer that Islam has. Apart from looking like an idiot he probably showed more than anyone what the difference is between a follower of a spiritual path and the follower of a legalistic path. Mind you I am surprised that Kavita asked the kebab question as she was always saying in her previous male incarnation, she believed in the Shia Sufi tariqa. I suppose 'don't kill your pappi' is one of the first injunctions on their list of do and don'ts.

Or put simply Bajjar Kurehat is what makes someone a Tankhaiya and therefore liable to re-admission to the Khalsa after being given a punishment.

The Rehat Maryada says-;

The undermentioned four transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided

1. Dishonouring the hair;

2. Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way;

3. Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse;

4. Using tobacco.

The Bajjar Kurehats are not a list forbidding the most extreme actions such as murder or rape or anything like that. I think you are making a major mistake if you think that they are a legal code to govern each and every minute detail of someones life. It is a list which one signs up not to do. If one then breaks that injunction then one naturally puts oneself out of that organisation. So if you break a regulation then you need to retake Amrit in order to rejoin.

[tonyhp32]

Kavita ji, you once told me that your dad wants to convert to islam and hes amritdhari.... is there something you are thinking about it?

Yeah and her dad is some kind of professional who visits Iran regulary and thinks it's heaven on Earth. Plus her Iranian female friends sleep with their boyfriends/husbands after having done Muta marriage. More likely he's a Portugese fella whose just become a Shia and is sitting in some shyt*ole in Iran. What was the name of that band that sang 'That's what I go to school for' oh yeah..BUSTED!

[chatanga]

thats a very good post Tony. I was told once by a muslim who wished me to convert to islam , that " Islam governs everything in your life . there is no aspect of life that Islam doesnt tell you what to do...." This was his ace in trying to get me to becoma a muslim.

[amardeep]

the mentioning of killing ones dad was only an example, and i also mentioned beating up ones wife, worshipping several Gods etc etc.

the main theme was:

How can one commit these acts, and still be a member of the brotherhood, whereas if one cuts his hair he is out?

[wahegurubol]

How can one commit these acts, and still be a member of the brotherhood, whereas if one cuts his hair he is out?

When you member of the brotherhood , what do you exactly mean by it?

Is it some physical group of people that lives-does things togther?

What exactly you mean by the brotherhood? and where does the context of this brotherhood fall?

or does it just mean that from being ni-gura u became guru wala after taking amrit?

[amardeep]

being a member of the panth..

the opposite would be a thanakah

[wahegurubol]

just wanted to know if an amritdhari ... re-took amrit maybe due to some fallacy , but couldnt do his punishment... then where he stands?

[wahegurubol]

answer to kavita's question

Sikhpoint: Your views on partaking of 'Amrit'?

Dya Singh Ji: 'Amrit' is an essential part in the growth of a young Sikh but needs to be portrayed as a means to be free, liberated, rather than a death sentence. Rather than affirmations of belonging to a group which is progressive, teaching self improvement, leadership and emancipation, and removing the shackles of fear, ignorance and darkness, 'amrit' is portrayed as restrictive, prescriptive, prohibitive and threatening. For example, if you do not wear a kirpan, then you must seek forgiveness, repent, take your punishment and promise never to not wear your kirpan again. If you happen to eat from another's plate, who happens to be a non-Amritdhari, then your amrit is 'broken' and it must be taken again. Fear is instilled into youngsters about amrit so much so they prefer not to take it, leaving their lives unfulfilled. Amrit once taken does not break unless of course you commit a 'heinous' crime including, in Sikhi, the removal of hair. Is it not strange that an Amritdhari Sikh can commit murder yet still be considered a full-fledged amritdhari Sikh? An amritdhari Sikh in Australia was convicted and goaled for growing marijuana, yet no one has forced him to retake his vows! Yet, if an Amritdhari eats from someone else's plate, he/she is supposed to have committed a kurahit? I think Amrit needs to be redefined in line with today.