Meeting of Budha Dal

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Once das was sent to RSS to let Baba Surjeet Singh Ji out of prision after what happened during april 2007.

Was not he out later?Was not Baba Baziger,the lower caste off from the jathedar within one month.you guys had a good situation then.

But RSS had nothing to do as they talk of castelessness in Hindus.

Till Baba Surjeet Singh Ji do not eat food which is already eaten by Singhs like Baba Balkar Singh(Dalit Jathedar from Salem Tabri Ludhiana) or Baba Baldev Singh of (Baba Sangat Singh Jatha).

There is no scope to belive.

It is itself proof of Dalit discrimation where we find having Langer near precance of Dalit camp agreat thing.

What about convertng Muslim and let him also have Baptism from same bowl as of high caste Zamindar(das can provide you such converts).

Das could write more trash but do not bring RSS in as das can bring in congress and can write about where abouts of some brave of yours.

Untill we do not prove in the court of law,we can not tell a person guilty.

Few days back das dead read a pres rleace of lower caste bazigar,where we were told that soon cases will be intiated.

Lastly News paper which report could be having some political connection.

What das knows is that there is a Budhadal congress.Das will not use wrong words furhter.

Why were Baba Surjet Singh Ji removed before poor lower caste Bazigar rejoined the Panth?

And why only after this lower caste Baziger took powere that his crime record has been reopened.

why did you guys not told that about him when he was in your dal?

Lastly another strange thing is that Nihungs who have been talking pro India started to blame Punjab police,Strange?

Same police was used by privious Jathedar to ward off militants.Strange things.

When we speak lies and make a world of lies around us.We tend be off the true world and practitcal way to solove the problems.

[Maha Kharag Singh]

vijay whats all this low caste this low caste that and please clarify who you are talking about when you use references such as bazigar.

your english is terrible that why i cant make sense of what your saying,

malwe dea shera tu hi kuch dass ki eh vijay ki bhonk reha hai?

[Niranjana]

Whatever Vijaydeep or anyone else has to say, why can't the UK Nihangs and their super "intellectual" theories explain clearly why caste discrimination occurs in the Buddha Dal Amrit Sanchar.

These same people, and other non-Nihang supporters of the Buddha Dal (such as DDT etc) make a big issue out of Gurdwaras in the UK bearing caste identity, however the bottom line is, I can walk into a Singh Sabha, Ramgarhia, Ravidasi or Batra Gurdwara and still be allowed to participate in Kirtan, Langar and all items - it's only the management which is peculiar to certain caste groups, however the Buddha Dal will ask me outright, if I am a Jimidar (Jatt) and should I respond in the negative, regardless of my caste being higher (say Khatri or Brahmin) or lower, they will place me in the "Chautha Paur" when it comes to Langar, let alone the Amrit Sanchar, proof in itself that the Buddha Dal is simply interested in propagating the Jatt caste, regardless of its leadership being in the hands of supposed non-Jatts (FYI, I am not supporting caste-Gurdwara, so please do not deviate off topic here, it is used only to highlight the issue).

I have asked this question before, yet no Nihang seems to want to exercise their brawn or brains to answer the question - please address this, oh true form of the Khalsa, the 96 Crore Chalda Vaheer, Guru Maharaj ki Ladli Fauj.

[1santkhalsa]

niranjana be VERY careful there are uk NIHANGS and uk NAaNGS!

[chatanga]

niranjana , are you saying that people are asked their caste before they can take a seat in langar of the budha dal?

[Niranjana]

Chatanga Jee,

Yes. Forget langar, at the Buddha Dal amrit sanchar, it is well known that Jatts are singled out to one side and all other castes to the other - so it is not simply caste discrimination on the basis of who is supposedly higher as per the Manu Simriti (since that would obviously relegate the Jatts to the bottom as well!), it is revised caste discrimination, i.e. Jatts have become the new Brahmins.

Prior to the Amrit Sanchar, the Buddha Dal will ask all neophytes to split into two groups, one being the "Jimidars" and the others all who don't qualify as "Jimidars", i.e. all non-Jatts, included so-called higher caste Khatris and Brahmins. Amrit is distributed separately to both, such that the sharing of the Bata between non-Jatts and Jatts doesn't occur! I guess the demands of the Rajput Rajas (from whom many Jatts claim they descend) to have a separate amrit for them are coming true!

The langar is kept separate for the "chauta paur" - we all hear stories of Gyani Ditt Singh's struggle against the Sanatan Singh Sabha and being refused prashad at the Harmandir Sahib for this supposed outcaste origins, yet not much has changed - the Buddha Dal, perhaps one of the most vocal groups concerning the supposed "Angrez Sikhi" claims against the Singh Sabha movement (which actually sought to remove such practices from Gurdwaras) are the foremost in maintaining this "sanatan" practice!

The Buddha Nihangs will, like the Namdharis, actually create a separate "Pangat" (ironic as it maybe to use such a term in this context) for those of similar caste origins to Gyani Ditt Singh and segregate them entirely from the remainder of the Dal with a separately prepared langar. Just imagine...

...moreover, if that wasn't bad enough, should a Jatt have made a transgression in rehit or other similar conduct, as punishment for his transgression, he may be ordered to sit within the "Chautha Paur" langar, the implications of which speak for themselves!

Sant Khalsa,

Yes, there are UK Nihangs and N**GS, fine - but this matter concerns the Buddha Dal in India, the master of both factions. As described above, the reality is that the Buddha Dal is not shaping itself on the Indian Caste system, since that would give power to the Brahmins, but to a revised caste segregation which seeks to promote nothing but Jatt superiority.

[tonyhp32]

The problem unfortunately is that some people are just not prepared to use their own matt in order to decide whether a particular act is in line with or against Sikhi. Using excuses such as lineage of the organisation and that such and such leader is a brahmgyani did not hold any water with the Singh Sabha. The whole reason for the creation of the Singh Sabha was that certain rituals and beliefs had entered Sikhism which were not in line with Gurmat. Fortunately the Singh Sabha Gurdwaras which are the legacy of the Singh Sabha might not be perfect but one would be hard put out find an overt display of caste discrimination such as the one you have ascribed to the Buddha Dal. The problems that the UK Nihangs face is that they like to portray the Buddha Dal as being the entity that has kept their rites and rituals pure whilst others have become angrejified. So if the Buddha Dal stance on caste is pointed out they would much rather ignore this glaring diversion from the Gurus teachings because if the Buddha Dal couldn't keep the Gurmat teaching on equality then what other teachings have been subverted in this 'pure' Khalsa?

I visited the Damdama Sahib Gurdwara at Rakba during the Baisakhi of 1988 and either it was being re-built or it was being built for the first time. I didn't notice people being asked their castes and being seated in the Langar according to their answer but then at that time the Kharkoo movement was particularly strong in that area or the Dal in that place did not deem themselves strong enough to impose their Buddha Dal practices in that area.

On the Buddha Dal what I find surprising is that some of the Nihangs are accusing Balbir Singh of being a police cat and being in league with the Indian government! That's rich coming from supporters of Santa Singh! Btw if Santa Singh is so infirm that he is powerless to prevent his fauj being subverted by a person like Balbir Singh then does that mean that he's not a Brahmgyani?

[Malwe Da Sher]

Caste discrimination does occur but I myself have not witnessed it in the langar, perhaps Narinjana Bhai you could tell us of your experiences?

Tony you sound very familiar to someones posts that I have read on Sikh Sangat called 'Proactive'.

The first paragraph of your post actually has some very good points. The second is a bit of airy fairy hopeful assumptions and the third is not worthy of being credited with any other response than: 'lol you really have a problem with Nihang Singhs dont you?'

You would think if people were so against caste discrimination they would support the one Singh in Budha Dal thats been going against it for years - Baba Joginder Singh.

[Malwe Da Sher]

My friend while you were at Rakba Jathedar was Baba Lehna Singh who was a Takhan by birth and was the Gurdev of Baba Joginder Singh. Baba Lehna Singh was very hutthi tuppi mahapursh, it is said he knew of all Sri Guru Granth Sahib Kanth. People have tried to imply Baba Joginder Singh is of the 'pro-jatt' group. This of course is a basless accusation as his highly revered ustad Akali Nihang Baba Lehna Singh was a tarkhan, and also Baba Joginder Singh has been the only Jathedar 'proactively' (wink wink) seeking to rid the Budha Dal of caste discrimination.

There has never been any caste discrimination at Rakbha and nor is there any at most Budha Dal Chaunees, perhaps others would be so kind as to tell me where they have seen discrimination being practised.

[tonyhp32]

That was my point I didn't notice any discrimination at that time, although I have gone past that place many times afterwards I haven't had the opportunity to visit it again.

As for my mate proactive I agree with most of what he says!

[Malwe Da Sher]

You should go back, the Gurdwara Sahib has been rebuilt - just recently finished, there are two divan halls now. Baba Joginder Singh also got the thurra sahib preserved where Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji sat. Its been locked due to bibia going in and pinching bits some of the bricks that have been there since maharajs time, but you can get the key and go inside. Strangely theres a cold breeze in the small room and so it remains very cool even in the middle of summer.

Amongst the locals the most the Gurdwara is probably most loved for the lassi they serve - and no jatts do not keep the lassi for themself before anyone suggests they do. A lot of Singhs from 'Mazbhi' caste stay at Rakba due to the equal treatment they are given.

As for your mate proactive.... yeah I thought you might.

[chatanga]

with the apparent discrimintaion against nonjatt has the ratio of jatt/nonjatt stayed the same, or has it shifted in balance of jatts , as more of the nonjatts are mre politically aware?

[Niranjana]

Malwe da Sher wrote;

"at Rakba Jathedar was Baba Lehna Singh who was a Takhan by birth and was the Gurdev of Baba Joginder Singh. Baba Lehna Singh was very hutthi tuppi mahapursh, it is said he knew of all Sri Guru Granth Sahib Kanth. People have tried to imply Baba Joginder Singh is of the 'pro-jatt' group. This of course is a basless accusation as his highly revered ustad Akali Nihang Baba Lehna Singh was a tarkhan"

Sardar Sahib,

This is fine, Baba Santa Singh himself is non-Jatt, it means jack-all when one looks at the ground level. This argument is not too far from the classic AKJ/DDT pro-Tarna Dal arguments, since Baba Nihal Singh is a vegetarian, it is only natural that pro-AKJ and DDT websites sing his glories as the "true Nihang" and so on, but reality is Jhatka is practised in the Tarna Dal camps - however the pro-veggie lobby love to brush this under the carpet because "they haven't seen it happen" much like what Nihangs are doing with respect to their "caste" differentiated langar and amrit sanchars.

Vijaydeep Singh can provide ample first hand accounts of people being asked their 'jaat' when entering the Buddha Dal amrit sanchar, so much so that even a Sikh of Brahmin origins was placed by the Nihangs into the Chautha Paur for the Amrit Sanchar (i.e. on account of him being a non-Jatt) - time will show that what has been happening covertly in other Sikh institutions, will happen openly in the Buddha Dal, i.e. Jatt supremacy.

Tonyhp stated:

"Fortunately the Singh Sabha Gurdwaras which are the legacy of the Singh Sabha might not be perfect but one would be hard put out find an overt display of caste discrimination such as the one you have ascribed to the Buddha Dal. The problems that the UK Nihangs face is that they like to portray the Buddha Dal as being the entity that has kept their rites and rituals pure whilst others have become angrejified. So if the Buddha Dal stance on caste is pointed out they would much rather ignore this glaring diversion from the Gurus teachings because if the Buddha Dal couldn't keep the Gurmat teaching on equality then what other teachings have been subverted in this 'pure' Khalsa?"

This is precisely the point that needs to be discussed. I personally find Nihangs intriguing and like parts of their culture, whether or not I am one myself is irrelevant, however they need to be able to live up to their own assertions, namely:

"What is false I will call false.

Even though the people may try to silence me.

I do not care for what anybody says.

I will speak but the truth from my mouth"

(Guru Gobind Singh, Treh Charittar No.266, Dasam Guru Durbar)

and more importantly, as per their website, they accuse mainstream Sikhs of the following:

"Yet the present day mainstream Sikh institutions are afraid of asking questions"

Yet, given the content of many PMs I have received since writing on this thread, one's mind begins to wonder...

Tony, you are quite right, whilst there are undoubtedly issues with Singh Sabha, Ramgarhia and Batra etc Gurdwaras, the bottom line is I have yet to come across an example where the institution itself has decreed that a person be singled out from something so fundamental as the Amrit Sanchar or being served Langar on the basis of their caste, despite two of these institutions openly declaring their management on the basis of caste biradari.

It is common to find many non-sikhs partaking in the Langar in the Singh Sabha and Ramgarhia Sabha Gurdwaras in Southall and from frequent personal experience I have many non-Jatt and non-Tarkhan friends at both institutions who are involved in the preparation of Langar, yet the institution which claims itself to be the "true form of the Khalsa" and derides the mainstream Sikh population as an "Andrez" bastardisation, itself purports practices which frankly are totally uncompatible with Gur-Maryada, or maybe I and other mainstream Sikh hold too many "19th century bourgeoisie ideals".

Chatanaga asked:

"with the apparent discrimintaion against nonjatt has the ratio of jatt/nonjatt stayed the same, or has it shifted in balance of jatts , as more of the nonjatts are mre politically aware?"

Sardar Jee, I would recommend you touch base with Vijaydeep Singh, he will be able to provide you with a first hand account.

[jassasingh]

caste discrimination and jatt thing ...

if budhadal is a pro jatt jathebandi ... how come baba santa singh who is sultane kaum be a non jatt ... he is an arora sikh ...

secondly if we go in history ... sardar jassa singh aluwalia ... was he a jatt nopes ... what singhs called him ... " HAMKI TUMKI " because they speak hindi and punjabi mixed ... was it a discrimination ...

actualy the problem is budhadal has its base in villages ... among jatts ... 80 % form jatts ... its natural to have bond ... malvai cant mix with singhs from majha .. because of language ... is it anti sikhi ???

u can guess just looking at the turban from which part he belongs he is from delhi patiala ludhiana ... is it anti sikhi ...

if u look at itehas budhdal has faught against brar jatts of malva ... why ??? wasnt at that time it was singhs vs jatts ...

every where else there is hidden racism is going on which is effecting internally attacking sikhism from inside ...

but in nihungs whats inside is outside ... yes their is racism ... but it dont have any negitive effect ... if u have kammai and seva no matter u are khatri or shudar ... one so called jatt nihung singh would give u more respect then his fellow jatts ...

[jassasingh]

i dont think so its wrong to ask what jaat u belong to because chandal is a jaat which is not given amrit according to puratan amrit sanchar tradition ... this is the reason of asking race ...

and what matters is whats ur jaat after amrit sanchar its khatri ... singh is a khatri surname ... baba bachiter singh was bachiter singh even before taking khande di paul .. and thats a seprate issue ...

so asking ur jaat on amrit sanchars in not for pro jatt etc but to know ur background ... and to confirm you dont belong to chandal jaat ...

[Niranjana]

Jassa asked:

"if budhadal is a pro jatt jathebandi ... how come baba santa singh who is sultane kaum be a non jatt ... he is an arora sikh ..."

If you go back and read the thread, this issue has been addressed. The fact that Udey Singh and Baba Santa Singh are Aroras has no impact on what actually happens on the ground, which is exactly what I have described - please could the "Guru ki Ladli" fauj actually address the issue rather than trying to divert the topic!

"actualy the problem is budhadal has its base in villages ... among jatts ... 80 % form jatts ... its natural to have bond ... malvai cant mix with singhs from majha .. because of language ... is it anti sikhi ???"

Jassa, in the UK, there is much in the way of caste-based biradharis, which form tight-knit communities, can be identified by their speech, turban style etc, in the way the rest of your post seeks to defend the pro-Jatt discrimination at Langars and Amrit Sanchar.

We have caste-based Gurdwara committees, however even there one does not find Ramgarhias or Ravidasias or Jatts bastardising the very Amrit Sanchar ceremony or the Pangat of the Langar through the introduction of the "Chautha Paur".

"if u look at itehas budhdal has faught against brar jatts of malva ... why ??? wasnt at that time it was singhs vs jatts ... "

We are talking about what is happening today right now, history is great, but only if we can learn from it, clearly it seems the Buddha Dal haven't been able to and want to return to some form of Manusimriti format where Jatts become the new Brahmins.

"But in nihungs whats inside is outside ... yes their is racism ... but it dont have any negitive effect ... if u have kammai and seva no matter u are khatri or shudar ... one so called jatt nihung singh would give u more respect then his fellow jatts ..."

That's right Jassa, so when a "Mazbi" Nihang was given a farla on the basis of his "kammai and seva" why was he subsequently beaten up???!!!

"i dont think so its wrong to ask what jaat u belong to because chandal is a jaat which is not given amrit according to puratan amrit sanchar tradition ... this is the reason of asking race ...

and what matters is whats ur jaat after amrit sanchar its khatri ... singh is a khatri surname ... baba bachiter singh was bachiter singh even before taking khande di paul .. and thats a seprate issue ...

so asking ur jaat on amrit sanchars in not for pro jatt etc but to know ur background ... and to confirm you dont belong to chandal jaat ... "

Jassa, that is simply a loads of "b*llocks" to be quite frank.

Re-read my comments and clearly you will see it is a racist practice and one that has now become pro-Jatt.

[chatanga]

jassa says:

dont think so its wrong to ask what jaat u belong to because chandal is a jaat which is not given amrit according to puratan amrit sanchar tradition ... this is the reason of asking race ...

is this the doctrine laid down by Guru Gobind SIngh, that one particlaur group are to be denied amrit?

that is the first time ive heard such comments, and quite frankly, if this is what Budha Dal still or have ever aspired to , then im glad the singh sabha took control of the panth.

and what duz channdal mean anyway? it means low or savage person. so are these people to be denied forever? If Guru Nanak could redeem Kauda and the like, wud guru Gobind Singh deny the same category of people?

[jassasingh]

@ chatanga brother tusi keha see ur reading sri sarbloh granth may be tusi miss karta ossch chandal jehra 5 th varan hai ossch kayi thavan likheya hoyea ... and luckily i have got katha whose part i m cutting out and posting about 5 th varran ... if u want to know more search it in sri sarnboh granth ... and chandal is not low shudar varn is one which is said to be low !!!

rest its mareyada if u want to accept it its ok if u dont no worries ...

http://www.MegaShare.com/328504

[chatanga]

which page on Sarblhoh Granth is Jassa Singh, where you are refering to. i will have look.

[jassasingh]

singh ji i havent read sri sarbloh granth myself nor i have it in any format with me ... but i have heard its santheya a number of times as it kath was done few months back at bagichi sahib gurudwara a nihung singh chauni ... so i have heard a part of it and sarbloh granth has the answer of ever why how and what regarding mareyada and jeevan of khalsa panth including amrit sanchar ...

and the audio i posted is for ur comment regarding u have not heard before so that u can hear it now ... not to prove my point or anything ...

[tSingh]

This is certainly not the attitude of other samprdais. Bhai Adhan Shah, one of the most important figures of the sevapanthis, explicitly states that a brahmgyani is the form of parmatma whether brahmin or whether chandaal, and only those lost in ignorance fail to recognise atma (that was in 1748). Was kshatriya dharam of shasterdhari khalsa a affirmation of jaat, or a broadening out of varnashramdharma into quality rather than ethnicity? Was sending jats (then considered shudra) to learn devi bhasha not also the rejection of varna by birth?

[Niranjana]

"so i have heard a part of it and sarbloh granth has the answer of ever why how and what regarding mareyada and jeevan of khalsa panth including amrit sanchar ... "

OK, please outline and explain in detail the following:

1. Why exactly are Mazhbis are provided a separate Langar and made to sit separately from the remainder of the Dal?

2. Why, if a non-Mazhbi Nihang commits a kurehit, as part of his sentence, he maybe asked to eat langar within the "Chautha Paur"? This blantantly indicates that Mazhbis are regarded as 'dirty' and that sitting next to them and sharing their food is "punishment" - please explain this fully using the Maha Katha of the Sri Sarabloh Prakash.

3. Why are there many cases of non-Mazhbi neophytes who are not "jimidars" (i.e. Jatts) also included within the "Chautha Paur", if this isn't indication enough that the Buddha Dal is moving towards a system of caste discrimination where Jatts are regarded as the "top dogs" I don't know what is - maybe some Maha-Akali-Baba-96-Crore-Tyar-bar-Tyar-Chaldha-Vaheer-Brahmgyani-Nihang-Khalsa-Jee can provide you with some 'authentic oral tradition' to account for this?

[jassasingh]

If you go back and read the thread, this issue has been addressed. The fact that Udey Singh and Baba Santa Singh are Aroras has no impact on what actually happens on the ground, which is exactly what I have described - please could the "Guru ki Ladli" fauj actually address the issue rather than trying to divert the topic!

singh ji jad tak tusi kahi jao ki eh jatt pro aa oddon taak theek jad koi dujja example de ke kahe ki eh galat hai oh topic divert ho reha ???? what could be the biggest thing on the earth to prove dal panth is not jatt pro other then this that its jathedar is not a jatt ... ???

u said about uk ... i dont care what happens in uk ... i m more worried about what happens in punjab !!! what kind of discrimination is in langars can u tell about it a little more ???

That's right Jassa, so when a "Mazbi" Nihang was given a farla on the basis of his "kammai and seva" why was he subsequently beaten up???

singh ji there must be some personal issue in them ... if it was because of jaat he must not have been given farra ... i many times got beaten up in class for not doing homework ... if i come out and say its because of my caste ... the society we are in 90 % people would believe it without thinking any further ...

i would repeat my words jaat is asked to know ur background ...

and one more thing if their is a shudar he would be given paul before anyone else ... now dont budhadal sound shuder pro jathebandi ... ???

and last thing singh ji said actualy what happens ground ... i myself dont belong to a jatt race ... i have visited baba joginder singh a number of times ... last time i visited them was at this diwali jodh mela at burj akali phoola singh amritsar sahib ... i reached their around 8 ... first thing baba ji asked me have u eaten parshada i said no ... they said go and eat ... i sat with sangat where langer was same for all no one asked if i m a jatt ... then baba ji asked have u got any assan ie place to sleep i said no ... they pointed to the corner just next to them ... u can sleep here ... this is the ground reality ...

[jassasingh]

i have not seen or heard all your 3 question in punjab ... so i cant comment on them ... all i know is there are no seprate langar for majhbi sikhs !!!!

[Niranjana]

Jassa, maybe there is a language issue here, but I really can't follow your broken English, but here goes:

1. The reference to the UK was used as an example to address the irrelevant points YOU have brought up to justify or at best, sweep under the carpet, the inherent issue of caste discrimination in the Buddha Dal.

Whether you care about the UK or not is not important, if you read what I have written, it answers your questions clearly.

2. It seems you are clearly sheilded from the reality of what happens on the ground - bottom line is if I am 'lying' or 'distorting' the accounts, as you and others are now alluding to (re: I have never seen this in Punjab blah blah), then why would Baba Joginder Singh be struggling in Punjab within the Buddha Dal to address the very issues I have raised here repeatedly - or is he just lying as well, because YOU personally have never witnessed this!

3. Where are all the "ture form of the Khalsa" revivalists - they've made plenty of noise in the past about angrez-sikhi and what not, where are the academics of the Nihangs now? Why can't they face up and admit to problems in house, rather than furthering the problem in the name of "maryada"?!!