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i never heard of Guru Gobind Singh being called an avtar of Bhagwan Shiv, but have heard frm the udasis that Baba Sri Chand was the avtar of Shiv Ji.

and also why did Shiv Ji shed tears , duz any1 know ? this is new to me as well.

My Guess is that He must have been separated from Mata Parvati and maybe in her viyog shivji shed tears... thts just my guess... becus rama also shed tears when he was separated from mata sita.

anyone else with a better explanation ?

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Maha-Kharag-Singh,

Sadly I have no insights, only questions to seek better understanding of what you are saying, so here goes:

1. By "those who are worshipers of Shiva and/or Devi" are you referring to Tantrik Hindus or Kashmiri Shavites or Aghoris? Please clarify and outline their statements as to why they hold the view that you allude to them having told you.

2. Affiliation with the colour Blue, the Dastaar Bunga and Farla are Nihang paraphenalia, not that of Guru Gobind Singh (despite what the Nihangs like to suggest). Taking each in turn:

Colour blue - ample discussion has been had on this forum and elsewhere showing that the adoption of this clothing by the Nihangs was the result of their taking employment under Mughal rulers. For further information, see the "Nihang Bible" Panth Parkash (Ratan Singh Bhangoo) and his account of Kahn Singh and contrast with the account of the Sikhs attacking Lahore wearing the Blue Muslim dress given by other famed Sanatan Sikh scholar Gyani Gyan Singh in his Naveen Panth Parkash.

Dastaar Bunga & Farla - Gyani Gyan Singh in Naveen Panth Parkash indicates that the Dumalla style of dastaar was made popular by Bhai Naina Singh. There is no support to the notion that Guru Sahib ever wore such a turban, despite revisionist assertions of certain writers. Same is true of the Farla - also see 'Guru Keeyaan Saakheeyaan' which indicates that the Farla was drawn from the small blue turbans of Bhai Uday Singh, Himmat Singh, Sahib Singh, Mohkam Singh and Aalam Singh Ji.

Bottom line, present day understanding of such items within Nihangs are perfectly valid, since all traditions develop over time, however this does not in itself validate them as authentic practices from the Gurus nor for the subject at hand explain why Guru Sahib would be the "Human Avtar of Rudra". So please explain what makes Guru Sahib qualify for such a suggestion.

3. You seem to describe Shakti as energy, however you then go on to describe what seems to be God (re: "omnipresent and is the cause for all lifes existent") and then move to describe "lower" shaktis, or "energies" as per your earlier definition (re: "many Advait Shaktis and...lowly Ridhi Sidhi Nivasini Shaktis). Please could you also explain the following:

(a) If the "one main shakti" is God, what are these lower shaktis - Demi-Gods?

(B) If shakti is "energy", are you suggesting that God is simply energy? If so, what type of energy - kinetic, potential, thermal, electromagnetic, chemical, nuclear etc?

Thanks,

Niranjana.

Brother Niranjana, from what I have heard. Some people believe i.e. those who are worshipers of Shiva and/or Devi that Dasme Satguru was a Human Avtar of Rudra (Shiva's most fearful form) Shakti (his power) Hence why his affiliation with blue and the Dastaar Bunga and concept of Farla.

As per my limited knowledge, there is one main Shakti, the universal energy which is omnipresent and is the cause for all lifes existent i.e. the spark in the engine of the universe.

Then there are many Advait Shaktis (mystical) and then the lowly Ridhi Sidhi Nivasini Shaktis.

I would love to have your insight into this...

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Bhai Saab Ji, as i have stated before i have limited knowledge. These statements I have gained by doing sangat with some Singhs, in India and some Hindu Shaastris (a particular group who dont do murti pooja) therefore i dont have sufficient evidence or knowledge to support such statements. I put them forward merely as a perspective of some individuals.

Secondly, about the Shakti bit from my own understanding just like there are many levels one must surpass to reach The Almighty I believe that The Lord presents itself to that individual at that stage in the respective form or swaroop eg one gains Ridhi Sidhi. Just like Bahadur was talking about Sahariat Dharam.......Haqiqat Dharam where Shariat is the lowest and Haqiqat is that highest.

My personal view is that The Almighty is an energy, and intelligent energy one which we have not discovered and one we never will. As per Quantum Physics yes there are four fundamental energies. But just as the proton was thought to be a fundamental particle at one time in history and then proved to have inside a selection of quarks. There is one unifying energy which is uncomprahendable and wont be found.

We believe that emotion is our gateway to the house of the Lord, and that its through Bhagti Bhavana we gain the strength to knock at that door. But what is emotion scientifically they are chemical and hormonal imbalances which cause us to "feel" in that way. If these chemicals were to be broken down fundamentally they are stores of energy, and if one can ever identify which energy it is e.g. electromagnetic, then as i said there has to be an energy which is beyond these "four fundamental" energy which allows the universe to run like an engine.

And its that very energy that i feel Satguru Nanak was reffering to as everyone has that spark of God.

i would suggest brother that you do some research in to the String Theory, which is the the theory that one day will take over the Big Bang theory which has actually been disproved. In that theory it talks about strings of vibrating energy. Now if we were to put that into the context of Gurbani does Naad ring a bell. Where The Lord is the sound current which causes every thing to be.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

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MKS,

Please do not call me “Bhai Sahib” as I have not done anything to earn such a title and in a time where certain personality cults and spurious writers have destroyed many other titles lets try and retain some authentic ones for their genuine purposes.

I believe Bahadur Ali refers to exoteric vs. esoteric traditions which is altogether different to what you are suggesting, which is:

“The Almighty is an energy, and intelligent energy one which we have not discovered and one we never will”

There are several issues I have with this suggestion and other similar pseudo-scientific notions that religious people like to put forth in frankly an absurd manner to support some notion in their scriptures or belief patterns. Mysticism does not need to be verified by Science, nor is there a need for a conflict between the two as the West largely have and continue to battle out. Fundamentally, if as you suggest “The Almighty is an energy”, why would we need to worship, pray, remember this ‘energy’, that seems little more than ancient man worshipping the Sun for its “energy”, hence providing further argument to the notion that religion is little more than superstition and quackery – surely this is not something you ascribe to?

MKS, I am well aware of “string theory”, bottom line is only a theory and as you say, the famed “Big Bang” theory is now being challenged in scientific circles – which is precisely the point and my issue with Sikhs and other religious people looking to justify their beliefs through scientific means, pre-knowledge of String Theory, other Sikhs like you were positing the notion that Sikhi, unlike the Abrahamic faiths, doesn’t have a creationist myth, instead supports the notion of the Big Bang.

Now that the Big Bang is being challenged, you (the next generation of the “sikhi is a scientific religion” camp) are seeking to find support for the “Multiverse” concepts being developed within science – bottom line, science, by its nature, is subject to being reinvented as new discoveries are made, religion on the other hand, claims to be ‘universal’ and ‘timeless’ truth, why then are we combing the two?!!

So let’s leave String Theory to its correct field, which is scientific research and theory and not muddy religion with terms loosely borrowed from science such as “energy” and “power” (which incidently are quite precise in their use within their correct scientific context, unlike those who freely borrow them for pseudo scientific purposes) and seek to establish the flawed notion of Sikhi being a scientific religion where we keep our hair long because it is “natural” and somehow gives us “more oxygen” as middle-class Sikhs are frequently duped into believing by pseudo-scientific parcharaks.

Back to the wider point, please clarify or provide some more thought as to the assertions concerning Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj and Shiv Bhagwan, clearly it is something that you hold dear and indeed upon which you base your understanding of exoteric (e.g. Nihang Bana) and esoteric aspects of your life as Sikh, so surely you have thought through the subject matter to live life in that way, please could you share your thoughts as it is quite a fascinating notion.

Gur Fateh!

N.

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"Now that the Big Bang is being challenged, you (the next generation of the “sikhi is a scientific religion†camp) are seeking to find support for the “Multiverse†concepts being developed within Science – bottom line, Science, by its nature, is subject to being reinvented as new discoveries are made, religion on the other hand, claims to be ‘universal’ and ‘timeless’ truth, why then are we combing the two?!!"

Excellent point veer ji.

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MKS,

Please do not call me “Bhai Sahib†as I have not done anything to earn such a title and in a time where certain personality cults and spurious writers have destroyed many other titles lets try and retain some authentic ones for their genuine purposes.

I believe Bahadur Ali refers to exoteric vs. esoteric traditions which is altogether different to what you are suggesting, which is:

“The Almighty is an energy, and intelligent energy one which we have not discovered and one we never willâ€

There are several issues I have with this suggestion and other similar pseudo-scientific notions that religious people like to put forth in frankly an absurd manner to support some notion in their scriptures or belief patterns. Mysticism does not need to be verified by Science, nor is there a need for a conflict between the two as the West largely have and continue to battle out. Fundamentally, if as you suggest “The Almighty is an energyâ€, why would we need to worship, pray, remember this ‘energy’, that seems little more than ancient man worshipping the Sun for its “energyâ€, hence providing further argument to the notion that religion is little more than superstition and quackery – surely this is not something you ascribe to?

MKS, I am well aware of “string theoryâ€, bottom line is only a theory and as you say, the famed “Big Bang†theory is now being challenged in scientific circles – which is precisely the point and my issue with Sikhs and other religious people looking to justify their beliefs through scientific means, pre-knowledge of String Theory, other Sikhs like you were positing the notion that Sikhi, unlike the Abrahamic faiths, doesn’t have a creationist myth, instead supports the notion of the Big Bang.

Now that the Big Bang is being challenged, you (the next generation of the “sikhi is a scientific religion†camp) are seeking to find support for the “Multiverse†concepts being developed within science – bottom line, science, by its nature, is subject to being reinvented as new discoveries are made, religion on the other hand, claims to be ‘universal’ and ‘timeless’ truth, why then are we combing the two?!!

So let’s leave String Theory to its correct field, which is scientific research and theory and not muddy religion with terms loosely borrowed from science such as “energy†and “power†(which incidently are quite precise in their use within their correct scientific context, unlike those who freely borrow them for pseudo scientific purposes) and seek to establish the flawed notion of Sikhi being a scientific religion where we keep our hair long because it is “natural†and somehow gives us “more oxygen†as middle-class Sikhs are frequently duped into believing by pseudo-scientific parcharaks.

Back to the wider point, please clarify or provide some more thought as to the assertions concerning Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj and Shiv Bhagwan, clearly it is something that you hold dear and indeed upon which you base your understanding of exoteric (e.g. Nihang Bana) and esoteric aspects of your life as Sikh, so surely you have thought through the subject matter to live life in that way, please could you share your thoughts as it is quite a fascinating notion.

Gur Fateh!

N.

Fateh!

N. Another view of mine is that Sikhi doesn't need to be ever subjected to questioning or justified for scientific approval. However if science is in favor of Sikhi then there is no harm in using science to propagate Sikhi by the medium of science. Some Sehajdhari Sikhs (in the extreme case of atheists or typical Punjabi background confused English desis) need such arguments to pull them towards the path of Sikhi.

But on the whole of your argument I do agree that Sikhi or Faith is amar its unchanging whereas science isnt certain.

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MKS you write:

"there is no harm in using science to propagate Sikhi by the medium of science"

I have shown you exactly what the problems are - you justify something which according to you religious people is an infalliable and timeless scripture, which in the case of the Sikhs is regarded to be their living Guru, yet using science to support meta-physical notions is absurd in itself since science does not claim to be infalliable and timeless, but constantly evolving.

So what's the harm, quite simple:

For the past 20 years I've been hearing Gyanis and middle class Sikhs revel in glee that their reading of selected (and in somecases quite amusingly selective) verses from Gurbani tally with the Big Bang theory.

So fine, according to you "Sehajdharis", "Atheists" and "typical Punjabi background confused English desis" (whatever that is) can be "pull(ed) towards the path of Sikhi"

What you are really saying is they can be "duped" into Sikhi through such pseudo-scientific nonsense, just like people today are duped into astrology by stupid claims of gravitational pulls from Planets on earth and water and hence Humans (yes, several idiots can buy into such nonsense, including those 'chardi-kala, better than Punjabi' 3HO sikhs, but that's another story), even though anyone with true scientific understanding can nullify such absurdity very quickly.

Anyhow, tomorrow, science formally invalidates the Big Bang Theory, what then comes of the "Sikhi is a scientific religion" malarky???

All these people that you have duped, sorry I mean "pull(ed) towards the path of Sikhi", will see through the bulls**t and again leave Sikhi and take several others with them exposing the lies upon which such parchar has been built.

This is precisely why many intelligent young Sardars and Sardarnia I have met/come into contact in the past in North America, the UK and India, after much soul-searching and receiving nonsense pseudo-scientific rationale for simple things like keep Kesh (i.e. the usual baloney of "it is natural" or "it gives you more oxygen" or "science has shown it provides more power" - what utter tripe!) go and cut their hair.

I am sure if they were told simply that it is the insignia of the Guru (along with the kakkars/treh mudra just as all traditional Sikh texts mention), that they represent ideals and that ideals are worth fighting for, these individuals may have remained Sardars and contributed to the Panth with their otherwise material success (i.e. these people were intellectuals who have gone on to become medics, scholars, politicians etc - all skills which the Panth will benefit from, as opposed to the Punjabi Mona-Kona that you perhaps refer to in your post).

So I would like to clarify my argument clearly, there is a grave danger of using science as the barometer for validating your religious beliefs, unless you have the balls to accept that at some point, your religious beliefs will be nullified by scientific enquiry, which is precisely the job of such enquiry - yet those who love the "sikhi is scientific" approach, rarely have the stomach for addressing the inenvitable questions that arise from such an analysis.

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veere as i said, science isnt certain whereas dharam is, at some points science will coincide with dharam and at other points it will not. Essentially its about trust and faith, when science leaves the palla of religion will your faith falter or will it remain atoot on amar dharam, which is certain and unchanging. About all that energy stuff, when i personally meditate the things that i experience are energy related (which i will not discuss any further as it is private to me) hence my view on God is formed on those experiences.

And there are many refferences in Gurbani relating to one primal ENERGY or SHAKTI as its translated into sanskrit/hindi/whatever.

And sometimes i feel that yes its sometimes best to remain an agiani that to have your sentiments surt when science goes up the back ally, but then that all boils down to how strong your faith is.

And to some extent i agree with your notion that using science as a medium can have an adverse effect, but then before the movement tof science towards atheism weren't science and religion drinking out of the same cup?

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"And sometimes i feel that yes its sometimes best to remain an agiani that to have your sentiments surt when science goes up the back ally, but then that all boils down to how strong your faith is"

MKS, why would you want to remain an agiani, if that was the case, why even bother with Sikhi? Why not worship the elements or perform sacrifices to the Sun God on a solar ecilpse? Why do you deny these forms of "faith" if that is all one needs? Precisely because of scientific enquiry, so please do not fall for that typical, science is evil since it undermines my religious beliefs trap.

And to some extent i agree with your notion that using science as a medium can have an adverse effect, but then before the movement tof science towards atheism weren't science and religion drinking out of the same cup?

"And to some extent i agree with your notion that using science as a medium can have an adverse effect, but then before the movement tof science towards atheism weren't science and religion drinking out of the same cup?"

In many cases yes, during the Dark Ages, the Western World was perhaps the most unscientific, free-speech repressing place one could find, it was in fact the Muslim world which brought scientific enquiry to the West (whether or it initiated in the Muslim world or in Africa or in India is another matter altogether), the underlying point being that yes, it was perfectly compatable to have scientific enquiry in its proper sense (and not the pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo that faith-healers and astrologers brandish about) whilst holding onto and practising one's religious duties and beliefs.

I would recommend people explore the writings of Abu Hāmed Mohammad ibn Mohammad al-Ghazzālī, a polygot and mystic who also pioneered much in the way of philisophical-skeptism, showing just how compatible skeptical and critical analysis are with theology and philisophy.

Here is the obvious common link to get started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali

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