[split topic] Has Gurbani been Changed?

[Maha Kharag Singh]

even if the damdami bir was taken away to afganistan, there were atleast four copies of the dictated bir made.

as per mul mantar, like i said there is the possibility that the gowindwal bir has been modified by the prithi chand decendents.

And for the Koran, muhhamad was illiterate, he could not check that what was written down was correct or unchanged. therefore authenticity of the koran is up for scrutiny.

Also the koran wasnt properly published until some 200 years after the death of muhhamad.

And if i can recall wasnt it you who said that the koran was modified by sunni caliphs, so how is the koran the unchanging word of God which you sulleh so openly declare

[Maha Kharag Singh]

even if the damdami bir was taken away to afganistan, there were atleast four copies of the dictated bir made.

as per mul mantar, like i said there is the possibility that the gowindwal bir has been modified by the prithi chand decendents.

And for the Koran, muhhamad was illiterate, he could not check that what was written down was correct or unchanged. therefore authenticity of the koran is up for scrutiny.

Also the koran wasnt properly published until some 200 years after the death of muhhamad.

And if i can recall wasnt it you who said that the koran was modified by sunni caliphs, so how is the koran the unchanging word of God which you sulleh so openly declare

[Sikh Answers]

Tabriz/Bahadur/Lalleshwari/etc., etc.,

You haven't explained it all that convincingly.

If Baba Mohan crossed out the Ghulam Sada Sevak hymns, then why were they not included in the Kartarpuri Bir? If Baba Mohan didn't like them, certainly Guru Arjan must have appreciated them? The more perplexing question is if these are Pothis to collect the works by the Gurus and prepared by a Guru, why do they have works of Ghulam Sada Sevak in them? He was no Guru and they weren't accepted and added to Sri Aad Granth afterwards. Who added this and why?

In fact, all the Shabads under M: 4 in the Pothis are not by Guru Ram Das at all. The Shabad listed as M: 5 in the Pothi does appear in Guru Granth Sahib, but is a shabad of Guru Ram Das jee. None of this makes any sense whatsoever.

Why does the Ahya pur pothi have an injunction to accept only Gurus from the Bhalla lineage?

You know as well as I do that the authenticity of the Goindval Pothis is FAR from conclusive.

If someone is interested in further study of why these Pothis are NOT authentic, please take a look at http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/pothi.pdf.

[Kam1825]

Very quick thing

I wonder who is the the haram khor: the man who works honestly and eats food that he paid for, or the Sikh who eats langar in a gurdwara that receives money from the National lottery fund?

How the hell can you say that when mecca has been beautifully done up from the way it way a hundred years ago. It is now surrounded by beautiful buildings and the city has been done up with the money gained from the sale of oil. Is that not Haram. Dealing with kafirs and using money from them for your religion.

Stop making things personal

[tonyhp32]

SoT

My comment about Qibla and abrogation was to do with your comments that does God change his mind. The truncated Quran does pose problems because isn't the Quran supposed me some kind of miraculous copy of a tablet held in heaven? Rather than a reliable transmission it does appear haphazard. As for abrogation doesn't this have a similarity with the allegations that you are making regarding the changes made to the Mool Mantar?

The problem with your analysis and your support for Gurinder Singh Mann is-;

1. You accept the Goindval pothis as authentic following the lead taken by GS Mann. What such a stance fails to take into account is the very real problems that scholars have with these pothis. As I remarked previously just because GS Mann says something is authentic does not make it so. At best the pothis are proof of a parallel line of Guruship centring on the descendents of Baba Mohan.

2. Your take on the GS Mann and BS Dhillon view of the Pothis is that because GS Mann is published by Havard and OUP it means that his scholarship has more validity than BS Dhillon. I think we discussed the nature of scholarship when you were in your previous avatar of lalleshvari. Just the fact that someone is published by OUP (especially in the field of Sikh Studies) doesn't imply that that scholar is the be all and end all in that field. If anything it just shows how successful that scholar has been in towing a particular academic line, being beholden to the benefactors of his chair etc. I remember a decade or so ago GS Mann went to Punjab in order to garner support from the Sikh leadership in Punjab which could then be used to get financial support for diaspora Sikhs for his chair at university. He used a video camera to get interviews with GS Tohra and I think some other leaders and it was only afterwards that the leadership discovered just how credible he was and Tohra issued a statement disassociating himself from Mann.

If you really want to know the level of integrity in the top academic centres that you yourself know that you were teaching Punjabi at SOAS and yet your knowledge in the language is very limited to say the least. If you, for the want of a better word could blag it at SOAS then it's possible for another scholar to blag it at other academic institutions and get his work published. I wonder how well read up the publishers at Havard are on Sikh scriptures so that they can decide that Mann's work is worthy of their esteemed name?

3. You placed great store on the alleged changing of the Mool Mantar.

“And most importantly the mulmantar.

The mulmantar in the Goindval pothis reads as follows:

ik-omkar satiguru parsadi sachunamu kartaru nirbhau nirikar akal murati ajuni sambhau //â€

What you have failed to mention is that the pothis contain in all SEVEN variant versions of the Mool Mantar. This should indicate that the lineage that got the pothis written had no regard for keeping the Mool Mantar consistent. One version of the Mool Mantar contains a invocation to Guru Nanak (Guru Babay Patishah), another has an invocation Babay Nanak Vedi Patishah. One of the versions even excludes the '1' of Ik Oankar.

“pages 96-98: BS Dhillon fails to discuss Prof Gurinder Singh Mann's work on the Goindval Pothis when it is in fact the single most important book written on the subject. Had this been part of a doctoral student's upgrade from MPhil to PhD ,he/she would have been failed. This is quite serious academically speaking and would be interpreted as intellectual dishonesty by an examinator. “

Although GS Mann’s work in only footnoted in page 98. The rest of the chapter has a discussion on the assumptions made by Mann. How is that wrong?

p117 He argues that the signature "gulam mast taida Jeth Chand" must be spurious because he argues that Guru Ramdas was not known as Gulam Mast and that several scholars have not seen the signature before. He argues that Gulam Mast is Baba Mohan. Indeed Gulam Mast does also use the title Nanak in the hymns attributed to him and it would be tempting to attribute those hymns to Baba Mohan would claimed to be Guru. Then why would Baba Mohan write :"gulam mast taida Jeth Chand", Jeth Chand was Guru Ramdas his rival. It doesn't make sense! Also BS Dhillon’s claim that Guru Ramdas was not known under that name is false. Giani Gurdit Singh in 1991 in his Itihas Sri Guru Granth Sahib (published by the SGPC) clearly states and proves that gulam mast is Guru Ramdas’ penname before he became Guru.

The only thing that links Baba Jeth Chand to Ghulam/ Sada Sewak, the writer of the verses is this signature.

The fact that the signature was not noted earlier especially when scholars who had came specifically to study the pothi casts some doubt over this. Surely as GS Mann implies with the use of his catch all ‘Bhalla Family tradition’, any Sikh scholar would have been aware of this tradition of Guru Ram Das using the pen name Ghulam Mast. If Baba Mohan crossed through the verses of Ghulam Mast then why are shabads of Guru Ram Das included in the work? A total of about 5 Shabads which in the Guru Granth Sahib are attributed to Guru Nanak are attributed to Guru Ram Das.

As for Kavi Santokh Singh, his use of fantasy tales in order to explain inconsistencies is well known. Guru Amar Das was able to give detailed instructions on how his passing was not be to a time of mourning as well as proclaiming Guru Ram Das as Guru. There was ample time for the Pothis had they existed at that time to have been passed on to Guru Ram Das.

GS Mann has accepted the date of the scribing of the pothis as around 1574 but when then there is a clear colophon at the start of the work which claims the blessing of the three generations of the Gurus and is dated 1596. He knows that if that is the correct date then he cannot continue his line that the Goindval Pothis were used by Guru Arjan during the compilation of the Guru Granth Sahib. This is why he needs to prove that Ghulam Mast has to be Guru Ram Das previous to ascending the Guruship because that could only have occurred before 1574.

The crux of the matter which is not addressed is why would Guru Arjan having procured the Goindval Pothis then-;

1. Change the authorship of some Shabads from one Guru to the next

2. Not include the work of his father (Guru Ram Das) previous to him becoming Guru.

No credible answers are given by Mann but just conjectures.

[DSG]

Sword of Tabriz wrotes

Human efforts are nothing without correct guidance.

Interesting point , correct guidance from where ? or whom ?

[Sword of Tabriz]

Maha Kharag Singh, you're in the wrong movie. The Goindval Pothis have nothing to do with Prithi Chand. Go to sleep. As for the Prophet (pbuh) he wasn't illiterate. He was "ummi" which means unschooled. But he could read and write as is clearly shown by the fact that he asked for a pen on his death bed to write his will. All Prophets and Imams are unschooled as a proof of their infallibale knowledge. The Bible confirms this in the case of Jesus.In clear they never went to school.

Sikh Answers, it isn't my explanation it's Kavi Santolh Singh's who you people used profusely to back your points on Ragmala. Suddenly he's no good any longer?

Kam1825, I am happy that you think like me that the Saudi government is made up by harami wahabi kuffar. Just a shame they have been put into power by your country.

Tony32hp, how does a truncated Qur'an, truncated Gospel or truncated Bhagavadgita save your case with the changes with mulmantar? Ad hominem attacks against me and my work at SOAS doesn't change anything either.

Yes there are 7 variants of Mulmantar in the Pothis which to me is even more worrying regarding your claims to gurbani being "unchanged". I find your theories about conspiracy in the world of Sikh studies fascinating. Alot of people in that field are (unlike me) devout Sikhs who are ready to take on the challenge of scientific scrutiny. When confronted with the change of mulmantar they don't get stuck in a dogmatic position like you and your buddies. If you and Sikh answers are so smart why don't you guys undertake to get a properly recognized university training in the field of Indology? Or are you guys too lazy to learn Sanskrit, Braj and Farsi?

The very reason OUP or HUP exist is so we academics can rely on academically reliable boosk revised by our peers, something that Singh Brothers don't have. Singh Brothers are not a recognised academic publishing house and their books represent ONE specific point of view. OUP also exist in India and Pakistan. I am sure that if BS Dhillon's book were of any academic worth it would have been published there or by any recognised academic publisher. I have pointed out to the serious shortcomings of his work. But you seem to be ok with low quality work as long as it fits your view of the world. The very fact that you have no problem with BS Dhillon not discussing Mann's work in his literature review is proof enough that you have no idea of how academia really works.

It isn't just Mann that accepts the pothis as authentic and you seriously do need to check your methodology regarding history. The very puratan sources you people quote for your "debates" say what I say about the pothis. Strange how you pick and chose from your ancient literature...

The point still remains: gurbani "unchanged" I beg to differ!

[DSG]

Sword of Tabriz if you say human efforts are nothing without correct guidance , and you say "gurbani unchanged , you beg to differ"

How do you know the source for " correct guidance " isnt changing what ever there prophets/gurus have written down ? How do you know what they say is 100% accurate and authentic ?

simple answer you dont ? only waheguru does ?

If for arguments sake , what you say is true , what does that prove ?

nothing , has it changed you -- no it hasnt

The point being as said before is quite simple , we must act on our Gurus teachings ?

We will never ever ever ever ever fully understand what our Guru is telling us , its our own / "guiders "interpretations which we accept .

[tonyhp32]

SoT,

You have still not answered the questions I posed. Why if the Pothis are dated as around 1574 according to Mann, do they contain shabads of Guru Ram Das and Guru Arjan? It's so easy to accept something because it fits into you agenda but quite a different matter when the acceptance conjures up more difficult questions.

I see that although you don't like your former mentor or should I say tour guide you still accept his theory about the Pothis yet you have no answer to the questions posed.

Not everyone accepts Kavi Santokh Singh's writings as 100% authentic. I would have thought you knew that already.

On the 7 variants of Mool Mantar where you find fault with Gurbani and allege that it wasn't fixed, I find fault with the scribe of the Pothis because he took a blaise attitude to the Mool Mantar. This is where we have to agree to disagree.

I sincerely hope that you won't repeat your previous modus operandi of throwing allegations and then running off when you can't handle the subsequent debate.

So your prophet was unschooled. That's a new one. I see you pick and choose your beliefs in Islam as you did when you were in the bhes of a Nirmala. Aisha was 16 according to you because you don't want to follow a deviant prophet. Then you accept Mohammed was unschooled and not illiterate. I suppose it affects the vanity of a scholar such as yourself if he followed a anparh 'prophet' I thought when gabriel roughed him up in the cave during the first 'revelation' he shouted that he couldn't read! I'm sure that's in the hadiths somewhere.

[Sword of Tabriz]

Well why don't you read Mann's book? All the asnwers to your questions are in there? Or does the price discourage you? Not your 2£ gurdwara bookstall publication hey?

I don't pick and chose from Islam. The views I present are well established views in Shi'a Islam and there is nothing recent about it. If you chose to rely on Sunni hadiths for your views on Islam, that's your choice.

[spiderman]

Why have you changed your views? First you say that Sikhi is a Revelation from God and now you are saying that it is not?

[tonyhp32]

Well why don't you read Mann's book? All the asnwers to your questions are in there? Or does the price discourage you? Not your 2£ gurdwara bookstall publication hey?

I don't pick and chose from Islam. The views I present are well established views in Shi'a Islam and there is nothing recent about it. If you chose to rely on Sunni hadiths for your views on Islam, that's your choice.

The questions were for you and not for Mann. No, the price doesn't discourage me,. As we have established a long time ago, you are the one who doesn't have book that is being discussed at hand. What's the matter, your SOAS library card been cancelled or something? This is a discussion about whether Gurbani is fixed or changable. Therefore the onus is on you to provide the proof as you see it or do your answers to any debate always consist of asking the other to read a particular book. Come forward with your answers to the questions asked if you wish the debate to proceed further. Otherwise we will just chalk this up as another cut and run job as usual.

[Sword of Tabriz]

I have the book at hand don't worry Tony32hp. I gave the answers to your questions but all you seem to do is:

- discredit Mann's book because it's published by Harvard and not some backyard Sikh publisher

- when I tell you about Santokh Singh you refuse it because it's not 100% authentic : which percentage exactly? I'd love to know

- resort to meaningless posts about Sunnism

- use little bitchy remarks using personal information about myself

- you have no material proof that the pothis were created by a rival sect

- you blatantly ignore the elementary concept of of researching history i.e. the first sources are authoritatitve. And it is amazing that it is only in the 20th century that you people start doubting your original sources from which you pick and chose on ideological basis. wonderful scholarship indeed!

You are indeed a god in terms of debating. Hail oh tony32hp!

[Mehtab Singh]

Gurbani is the unchanging word of God, as is clear from Gurbani itself...

Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Gauree on Ang 177

gauVI guAwryrI mhlw 5 ]

gourree guaaraeree mehalaa 5 ||

Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehla:

gur kw bcnu sdw AibnwsI ]

gur kaa bachan sadhaa abinaasee ||

The Guru's Word is eternal and everlasting.

gur kY bcin ktI jm PwsI ]

gur kai bachan kattee jam faasee ||

The Guru's Word cuts away the noose of Death.

gur kw bcnu jIA kY sMig ]

gur kaa bachan jeea kai sa(n)g ||

The Guru's Word is always with the soul.

gur kY bcin rcY rwm kY rMig ]1]

gur kai bachan rachai raam kai ra(n)g ||1||

Through the Guru's Word, one is immersed in the Love of the Lord. ||1||

jo guir dIAw su mn kY kwim ]

jo gur dheeaa s man kai kaam ||

Whatever the Guru gives, is useful to the mind.

sMq kw kIAw siq kir mwin ]1] rhwau ]

sa(n)th kaa keeaa sath kar maan ||1|| rehaao ||

Whatever the Saint does - accept that as True. ||1||Pause||

gur kw bcnu Atl ACyd ]

gur kaa bachan attal ashhaedh ||

The Guru's Word is infallible and unchanging.

gur kY bcin kty BRm Byd ]

gur kai bachan kattae bhram bhaedh ||

Through the Guru's Word, doubt and prejudice are dispelled.

gur kw bcnu kqhu n jwie ]

gur kaa bachan kathahu n jaae ||

The Guru's Word never goes away;

gur kY bcin hir ky gux gwie ]2]

gur kai bachan har kae gun gaae ||2||

through the Guru's Word, we sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord. ||2||

gur kw bcnu jIA kY swQ ]

gur kaa bachan jeea kai saathh ||

The Guru's Word accompanies the soul.

gur kw bcnu AnwQ ko nwQ ]

gur kaa bachan anaathh ko naathh ||

The Guru's Word is the Master of the masterless.

gur kY bcin nrik n pvY ]

gur kai bachan narak n pavai ||

The Guru's Word saves one from falling into hell.

gur kY bcin rsnw AMimRqu rvY ]3]

gur kai bachan rasanaa a(n)mrith ravai ||3||

Through the Guru's Word, the tongue savors the Ambrosial Nectar. ||3||

gur kw bcnu prgtu sMswir ]

gur kaa bachan paragatt sa(n)saar ||

The Guru's Word is revealed in the world.

gur kY bcin n AwvY hwir ]

gur kai bachan n aavai haar ||

Through the Guru's Word, no one suffers defeat.

ijsu jn hoey Awip ik®pwl ] nwnk siqgur sdw dieAwl ]4]5]74]

jis jan hoeae aap kirapaal || naanak sathigur sadhaa dhaeiaal ||4||5||74||

O Nanak, the True Guru is always kind and compassionate, unto those whom the Lord Himself has blessed with His Mercy. ||4||5||74||

Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Bilaaval on Ang 812

iblwvlu mhlw 5 ]

bilaaval mehalaa 5 ||

Bilaaval, Fifth Mehla:

Atl bcn swDU jnw sB mih pRgtwieAw ]

attal bachan saadhhoo janaa sabh mehi pragattaaeiaa ||

The words of the Holy are eternal and unchanging; this is apparent to everyone.

ijsu jn hoAw swDsMgu iqsu BytY hir rwieAw ]1]

jis jan hoaa saadhhasa(n)g this bhaettai har raaeiaa ||1||

That humble being, who joins the Saadh Sangat, meets the Sovereign Lord. ||1||

ieh prqIiq goivMd kI jip hir suKu pwieAw ]

eih paratheeth govi(n)dh kee jap har sukh paaeiaa ||

This faith in the Lord of the Universe, and peace, are found by meditating on the Lord.

Aink bwqw siB kir rhy guru Gir lY AwieAw ]1] rhwau ]

anik baathaa sabh kar rehae gur ghar lai aaeiaa ||1|| rehaao ||

Everyone is speaking in various ways, but the Guru has brought the Lord into the home of my self. ||1||Pause||

srix pry kI rwKqw nwhI shswieAw ]

saran parae kee raakhathaa naahee sehasaaeiaa ||

He preserves the honor of those who seek His Sanctuary; there is no doubt about this at all.

krm BUim hir nwmu boie Aausru dulBwieAw ]2]

karam bhoom har naam boe aousar dhulabhaaeiaa ||2||

In the field of actions and karma, plant the Lord's Name; this opportunity is so difficult to obtain! ||2||

AMqrjwmI Awip pRBu sB kry krwieAw ]

a(n)tharajaamee aap prabh sabh karae karaaeiaa ||

God Himself is the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts; He does, and causes everything to be done.

piqq punIq Gxy kry Twkur ibrdwieAw ]3]

pathith puneeth ghanae karae t(h)aakur biradhaaeiaa ||3||

He purifies so many sinners; this is the natural way of our Lord and Master. ||3||

mq BUlhu mwnuK jn mwieAw BrmwieAw ]

math bhoolahu maanukh jan maaeiaa bharamaaeiaa ||

Don't be fooled, O mortal being, by the illusion of Maya.

nwnk iqsu piq rwKsI jo pRiB pihrwieAw ]4]16]46]

naanak this path raakhasee jo prabh pehiraaeiaa ||4||16||46||

O Nanak, God saves the honor of those of whom He approves. ||4||16||46||

Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Prabhaatee on Ang 1339

pRBwqI mhlw 5 ]

prabhaathee mehalaa 5 ||

Prabhaatee, Fifth Mehla:

guru pUrw pUrI qw kI klw ]

gur pooraa pooree thaa kee kalaa ||

The Guru is Perfect, and Perfect is His Power.

gur kw sbdu sdw sd Atlw ]

gur kaa sabadh sadhaa sadh attalaa ||

The Word of the Guru's Shabad is unchanging, forever and ever.

gur kI bwxI ijsu min vsY ] dUKu drdu sBu qw kw nsY ]1]

gur kee baanee jis man vasai || dhookh dharadh sabh thaa kaa nasai ||1||

All pains and afflictions run away from those, whose minds are filled with the Word of the Guru's Bani. ||1||

hir rMig rwqw mnu rwm gun gwvY ]

har ra(n)g raathaa man raam gun gaavai ||

Imbued with the Lord's Love, they sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord.

mukquo swDU DUrI nwvY ]1] rhwau ]

mukathuo saadhhoo dhhooree naavai ||1|| rehaao ||

They are liberated, bathing in the dust of the feet of the Holy. ||1||Pause||

gur prswdI auqry pwir ]

gur parasaadhee outharae paar ||

By Guru's Grace, they are carried across to the other shore;

Bau Brmu ibnsy ibkwr ]

bho bharam binasae bikaar ||

they are rid of fear, doubt and corruption.

mn qn AMqir bsy gur crnw ]

man than a(n)thar basae gur charanaa ||

The Guru's Feet abide deep within their minds and bodies.

inrBY swD pry hir srnw ]2]

nirabhai saadhh parae har saranaa ||2||

The Holy are fearless; they take to the Sanctuary of the Lord. ||2||

And shj rs sUK Gnyry ]

anadh sehaj ras sookh ghanaerae ||

They are blessed with abundant bliss, happiness, pleasure and peace.

dusmnu dUKu n AwvY nyry ]

dhusaman dhookh n aavai naerae ||

Enemies and pains do not even approach them.

guir pUrY Apuny kir rwKy ]

gur poorai apunae kar raakhae ||

The Perfect Guru makes them His Own, and protects them.

hir nwmu jpq iklibK siB lwQy ]3]

har naam japath kilabikh sabh laathhae ||3||

Chanting the Lord's Name, they are rid of all their sins. ||3||

sMq swjn isK Bey suhyly ]

sa(n)th saajan sikh bheae suhaelae ||

The Saints, spiritual companions and Sikhs are exalted and uplifted.

guir pUrY pRB isau lY myly ]

gur poorai prabh sio lai maelae ||

The Perfect Guru leads them to meet God.

jnm mrn duK Pwhw kwitAw ]

janam maran dhukh faahaa kaattiaa ||

The painful noose of death and rebirth is snapped.

khu nwnk guir pVdw FwikAw ]4]8]

kahu naanak gur parradhaa dtaakiaa ||4||8||

Says Nanak, the Guru covers their faults. ||4||8||

You know last time I posted shabads, you asked me to take up the profession of one of those street astrologers who use parrots to pick up cards that people see as their fortune cards. I think even those guys would have better things to do rather than argue over a religion they "tried to" quit.

And atleast they have a job!

[Sword of Tabriz]

Well I have a job too ( a well paid one on top) so what's your problem mehtab? Can't find a reply and hence resort to bitchy attacks?

[tonyhp32]

discredit Mann's book because it's published by Harvard and not some backyard Sikh publisher

No I didn't discredit Mann for being published by Havard but because I don't view every book on Sikh Studies being published by OUP or Harvard as the final word on the subject. You seem to view the Harvard or OUP publishing label as the seal of authenticity.

you have no material proof that the pothis were created by a rival sect

Celophon Ahiyapur Pothi

---

One God realised through the True Guru's grace. Sambat Magh vadi 1, 1652 (Jan 7, 1596) the Pothi was written by Guru Abir Baba (Guru Amar Das) Naam Kartar Nirbhau Nirikar Ajuni Sabho. This blessing has been given by Guru Baba (Guru Nanak) to Guru Angad who passed it in all three generations whoever attunes his mind to the Bani would obtain liberation. ........ If anyone from our progeny (Bhallas) deserts the Guru to follow a Guru from another family (Sodhis) will go to hell.

The above seems suspiciously like an attempt to keep together a group within a rival Guruship. Guru Amar Das couldn't have written this pothi in 1596 because the Guru had passed the Guruship to Guru Ram Das in 1574. If Guru Abir Baba is not Guru Amar Das to whom the pothis are ascribed then who is Guru Abir Baba?

you blatantly ignore the elementary concept of of researching history i.e. the first sources are authoritatitve. And it is amazing that it is only in the 20th century that you people start doubting your original sources from which you pick and chose on ideological basis. wonderful scholarship indeed!

You are indeed a god in terms of debating. Hail oh tony32hp!

First sources authorative? Doesn't the biases, the origin, the group to which the source belong to have any bearing on the matter.

So, I assume that as the gospels predate the Quran then they are authorative about the life of Jesus and the Quran is wrong?

I really don't think this debate is going anywhere especially due to your refusal to come up with your take on the questions asked by me, so I will take my leave on this particular thread.

[Sword of Tabriz]

The two issues you raised have been addressed by Mann already. You are not adding any new information. If you refuse to read Mann at least admit it.

[Sikh Answers]

Sword/Lalleshwari/Bahadur, etc. etc, always resorts to the same tactic when he has nothing left to say or add: Go read. Here's news: I read the original book way back in 2000 or so.

Kavi Santokh Singh: NO Sikh scholar accepts everything Kavi Santokh Singh has to say unquestioningly. At any rate, Kavi Santokh Singh isn't saying that THESE pothis are the real Goindval ones. Just Dr. Mann and you.

Pritam Singh's book was indeed published by a University so I think according to your own twisted rules the "not-authentic" side now can't be deemed as baseless.

You haven't answered any of my points or tonyhp's points.

Just give it up.

Whether you accept it or not, Gurbani is the unchanged word of God.

[Sword of Tabriz]

Unchanged word of God?

Where is Baba Nanak's own pothi? You don't know

Guru Amardas" pothi? Well we know but you refuse to accept it

Guru Arjan's bir you seem to still have it but Guru Gobind Singh added Guru Tegh Bahadur's compositions. But for you that's unchanged...

I have answered your points Sikh Answers but you somehow seem to chose the way of inconsistency. On one hand your people quote Kavi Santokh Singh to support your views on Ragmala and suddenly when it comes to the Goindval Pothis he's wrong?

That's what I call reliability indeed. Let me guess Santokh Singh was also part of the anti-Sikh Rss-Bahman-Sullah conspiracy against Sikhi?

Yeah it must be that for sure...

[Sikh Answers]

Tabriz,

Are you really that ignorant or are you just feigning for the sake of debate? You and I both know that Kavi Santokh Singh's work has a lot of things that aren't accepted by Sikh scholars. The story of how the extra material was added is also known. In my earliest debates I've always maintained my position with regards to any work: I don't take historical Granth as authoritative on every subject. I take a point, cross reference with other sources and if it is supported by multiple writers, and proof I accept it.

Once again though, Kavi Santokh Singh never said that the Pothis Dr. Mann is looking at are THE Pothis. Unless you have some newly updated edition of Sooraj Granth since 1997?

I don't know why the Admin keep letting you on with one ID after another. It seems to be violating Guru Sahib's dictate of "Moorkhai naal na loojheeai."

[Mehtab Singh]

Well I have a job too ( a well paid one on top) so what's your problem mehtab? Can't find a reply and hence resort to bitchy attacks?

Glad that you have a well paying job, all the best to you! But you still haven't responded to the tuks I posted. Bani itself says that the word of the Guru is infallible and unchanging. You seriously think any Sikh would listen to a so-called "Sikh scholar" saying Gurbani is not unchanging when the exact opposite is clearly outlined in Bani itself? And then you call a post with Gurbani tuks as "bitchy" ?

[Mehtab Singh]

Well I have a job too ( a well paid one on top) so what's your problem mehtab? Can't find a reply and hence resort to bitchy attacks?

Glad that you have a well paying job, all the best to you! But you still haven't responded to the tuks I posted. Bani itself says that the word of the Guru is infallible and unchanging. You seriously think any Sikh would listen to a so-called "Sikh scholar" saying Gurbani is not unchanging when the exact opposite is clearly outlined in Bani itself? And then you call a post with Gurbani tuks as "bitchy" ?

[Sword of Tabriz]

No Mehtab it's you insinuating that I don't have a job that is bitchy.

What proof is a tuk that says gurbani comes from God? You argument is:

Gurbanis unchanged because gurbani says so!

Tautology isn't really convincing. Rather present me some manuscriptological evidence, textual study etc

Gurbani is REPLETE with intertextual influences from other sacred literatures. Sure God could be more original for his new revelation...

Sikh answers go have ishnan for you have disobeyed by talking with a manmukh like me. YOu talk of corss references? You and I know thet Santokh Singh's account is corroborated by other sources.

[Sikh Answers]

Kavi Santokh Singh hasn't given any description of the Pothis that matches the pothis Dr. Mann is looking at. You know that as well as I do. If I accept that the Pothis existed, I certainly don't have to accept that THESE are the same pothis.

As for being "original", I'm sure the Koran's reliance on all previous Semitic mythology is very original. Oddly, Moslems don't see that as a problem but a strength of the Koran. If God hasn't been original for the Sikhs (as you contend) then he certainly wasn't any more original for the Moslems.