Gurmat and the Gita

[singh2]

You concentrate so much on the names of Gods, you miss the deeper philosophy. This isnt "The War of the Gods".

Does according God's status to these demigods a deeper philosophy you believe in.

ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਡੋਲਹਿ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਾ ॥

ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਅਕੁਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਚੇਤਿਆ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਸਿਉ ਲਪਟਾਨਾ ॥:

Devee devaa poojahi dolahi paarbrah nahee jaanaa.

Kahat Kabeer akul nahee chetiaa bikhiaa siyu lapataanaa:

O man, you worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Being.

Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways

(Ang 332).

ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਹੈ ਮਾਇਆ ॥:

Devi devaa mool hai Maya: Maya is the origin of demigods

sggs 129

I do not worship those who have not been able to go beyond maya.

[singh2]

Krishan is an avatar, not a deva. Hanuman is neither a deva nor an avatar. So you are confusing apples and oranges.

please quote Gurbani where it is written

1) That krishna is an avtar and avtar of whom?

Trinity of brahma , vishnu and mahesh has not same status in sikhism as in hinudism.

In Hinudism they are supreme and there is no power above them.

in sikhism they are creation of akal purakh.

Harjas kaur

You are not same harjas kaur as you were a couple of years ago. You have been initiated with Hindu thought.

Edited October 23, 2009 by singh2

[Guest]

Singh2,

Based on Sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranvale steek on japji sahib and puratan samparda's. Krishna, Ram Chandar are pooran hari avtar. Their sareer along with our guru sahiban sareer are made out of shud satogun- ishvar as opposed to devta's who are sareer are made out of traigun maya- sato, rajo, tamo. Hinduism has many mystic spiritual school of thoughts, many beleive Ishvar(shud satogun) is above devta's. Please read japji sahib katha by gyani thakur singh ji which was translated in this thread to understand avtarhood in depth, its not black and white as it seems- http://www.sikhawareness.com//index.php?showtopic=7695

[singh2]

N30 singh ji

I have respect for damdami taksal. But for getting sikh message Gurbani is the guide.

gurbani is quite clear on their status with respect to akal purakh

naanak nirbha-o nirankaar hor kaytay raam ravaal.

O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.

kaytee-aa kanH kahaanee-aa kaytay bayd beechaar.

There are so many stories of Krishna, so many who reflect over the Vedas.

ang 464, SGGS ji

dasam granth goes in detail about these avatars. guru ji has described these two demigods as avtar of Vishnu.In return Vishnu is creation of akal purakh.

janam maran tay rahat naaraa-in. ||1|| rahaa-o.

The Lord is beyond birth and death. ||1||Pause||

kar panjeer khavaa-i-o chor.

You prepare sweet treats and feed them to your stone god.

oh janam na marai ray saakat dhor. ||2||

God is not born, and He does not die, you foolish, faithless cynic! ||2||

sagal paraaDh deh loronee.

You sing lullabyes to your stone god - this is the source of all your mistakes.)

so mukh jala-o jit kaheh thaakur jonee. ||3||

Let that mouth be burnt, which says that our Lord and Master is subject to birth. ||3||

janam na marai na aavai na jaa-ay.

He is not born, and He does not die; He does not come and go in reincarnation.

naanak kaa parabh rahi-o samaa-ay. ||4||1||

The God of Nanak is pervading and permeating everywhere. ||4||1||

ang 1136, SGGS ji

Bhagat kabir ji writes

poojaa kara-o na nivaaj gujaara-o.

I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers.

ayk nirankaar lay ridai namaskaara-o. ||3||

I have taken the One Formless Lord into my heart; I humbly worship Him there. ||3||

naa ham hindoo na musalmaan.

I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim.

alah raam kay pind paraan. ||4||

My body and breath of life belong to Allah - to Raam - the God of both. ||4||

ang 1136 SGGS ji

Edited October 23, 2009 by singh2

[Guest]

Singh2,

It appears you missed my point. Nowhere in my post i suggest that nirgun takes birth into avtars. There is fine line difference, nirgun transcedent its attributes to sargun avtar not transcedent itself fully. In punjabi as they say- uni ike da farak hamesha hai - sargun taie nirgun vich

[Maha Singh]

please quote Gurbani where it is written

1) That krishna is an avtar and avtar of whom?

Trinity of brahma , vishnu and mahesh has not same status in sikhism as in hinudism.

In Hinudism they are supreme and there is no power above them.

in sikhism they are creation of akal purakh.

Harjas kaur

You are not same harjas kaur as you were a couple of years ago. You have been initiated with Hindu thought.

Please show scriptual evidence that in traditional indic philosophy that worship of a sargun form of god is promoted as the highest form of worship.

[HarjasDevi]

That krishna is an avtar and avtar of whom?

Trinity of brahma , vishnu and mahesh has not same status in sikhism as in hinudism.

In Hinudism they are supreme and there is no power above them.

in sikhism they are creation of akal purakh.

SB 8.6.7:When Lord Brahmā, along with Lord Śiva and the other demigods, thus saw the form of the Lord, they all immediately fell to the ground, offering their obeisances.

SB 8.6.8: Lord Brahmā said: Although You are never born, Your appearance and disappearance as an incarnation never cease. You are always free from the material qualities, and You are the shelter of transcendental bliss resembling an ocean. Eternally existing in Your transcendental form, You are the supreme subtle of the most extremely subtle. We therefore offer our respectful obeisances unto You, the Supreme, whose existence is inconceivable.

Maybe the problem here is your misunderstanding of what Hinduism teaches. Srimad Bhagavatam says the demi-gods prostrate before the inconceivable nirgun Lord. Not that they are the Supreme with no power above them.

“The three gunas (qualities) are Rajgun-Brahma Ji, Satgun-Vishnu Ji, and Tamgun Shiv Ji.

They have taken birth from Brahm (Kaal) and Prakriti (Durga)

and

all three are perishable.

” ~Shrimad Devi Bhagwat Puran, Page 123

Is there something here which contradicts Gurbani? Then as an older writing, Gurbani is repeating the truth of a Hindu Purana. The Purana says the three Maha Devas of the three gunas are born from Parabrahm (Brahm KAL) and Maya-Shakti (Pakriti Durga) and that they will perish.

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥

nirankaar aakaar oupaaeiaa ||

The Formless Lord created the universe of form.

ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਬਣਾਇਆ ॥

maaeiaa mohu hukam banaaeiaa ||

By the Hukam of His Command, He created attachment to Maya.

ਆਪੇ ਖੇਲ ਕਰੇ ਸਭਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਸੁਣਿ ਸਾਚਾ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਇਦਾ ॥੧॥

aapae khael karae sabh karathaa sun saachaa mann vasaaeidhaa ||1||

The Creator Himself stages all the plays; hearing of the True Lord, enshrine Him in your mind. ||1||

ਮਾਇਆ ਮਾਈ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਸੂਤਿ ਜਮਾਇਆ ॥

maaeiaa maaee thrai gun parasooth jamaaeiaa

||

Maya, the mother, gave birth to the three gunas, the three qualities,

ਚਾਰੇ ਬੇਦ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਨੋ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਆ ॥

chaarae baedh brehamae no furamaaeiaa ||

and proclaimed the four Vedas to Brahma.

~SGGS Ji ang 1066

ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਭਵਣ ਰਖੇ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਏ ॥

sunnahu bhavan rakhae liv laaeae ||

From the Primal Void, He established this world to lovingly dwell upon Him.

ਆਪੇ ਕਾਰਣੁ ਕੀਆ ਅਪਰੰਪਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਕੀਆ ਕਮਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੦॥

aapae kaaran keeaa aparanpar sabh thaero keeaa kamaaeidhaa ||10||

The Infinite Lord Himself created the creation. Everyone acts as You make them act, Lord. ||10||

ਰਜ ਤਮ ਸਤ ਕਲ ਤੇਰੀ ਛਾਇਆ ॥

raj tham sath kal thaeree shhaaeiaa

||

Your Power is diffused through the three gunas: raajas, taamas and satva.

ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਹਉਮੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

janam maran houmai dhukh paaeiaa

||

Through egotism, they suffer the pains of birth and death.

~SGGS Ji ang 1038

Nothing in Gurbani is contradicting Hindu thought. What is contradictory are the Singh Sabha misrepresentations of Hindu thought in order to create the appearance of contradiction, for example in promoting the idea that all Hindus worship the demi-gods as the Supreme and believe in nothing higher. But where did the Nanakian conception of three gunas arise from? It came from Hindu Mat. Where did Nanakian conception of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva caught in time and Maya and perishable come from? It came from Hindu Mat.

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਆਕਾਰ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਏਕ ॥

nirankaar aakaar aap niragun saragun eaek ||

He Himself is formless, and also formed; the One Lord is without attributes, and also with attributes.

~SGGS Ji ang 250

"Shri Shiv Mahapuran, Rudra Sanhita “In this way, Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiv, the three gods have qualities, but Shiv (Brahm-Kaal) is said to be beyond qualities.”

What is the difference between Shiv of the three gunas, and Shiv of the Brahm Kal? Same difference as the Vishnu of the three gunas and the Vishnu Niranjana who is Maha Vishnu, above the gunas. When you read the qualities of the demi-gods, they are caught in time and materiality and subject to delusion of Maya and disease of haumai. But they are also sargun manifestations of an underlying nirgun unity which pervades them.

The formless Lord takes on millions of forms, and operates through the sansaar of three gunas, three fundamental forces or emanations, energies. Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu represent qualities of the Divine. So the Divine is pervading in those qualities. The niragun is also sargun. But the sargun is not niragun. The infinite pervades the finite. But the finite can't fathom the limits of the limitless. This is ancient Hindu teaching. It is not unique to Guru Nanak Panth.

Even the concepts of nirgun and sargun, where do they come from? Hindu Mat.

sri-parikshid uvaca

brahman brahmany anirdesye

nirgune guna-vrittayah

katham caranti srutayah

sakshat sad-asatah pare

sri-parikshit uvaca -- Sri Parikshit said; brahman -- O brahmana (Sukadeva); brahmani -- in the Absolute Truth; anirdesye -- which cannot be described in words; nirgune -- which has no qualities; guna -- the qualities of material nature; vrittayah -- whose scope of action; katham -- how; caranti -- function (by referring); srutayah -- the Vedas; sakshat -- directly; sat -- to material substance; asatah -- and its subtle causes; pare -- in that which is transcendental.

TRANSLATION

Sri Parikshit said: O brahmana, how can the Vedas directly describe the Supreme Absolute Truth, who cannot be described in words? The Vedas are limited to describing the qualities of material nature, but the Supreme is devoid of these qualities, being transcendental to all material manifestations and their causes. ~Srimad Bhagavatam 10.87.1

ਵੇਦ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਣ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥

vaedh kehehi vakhiaan anth n paavanaa

||

The Vedas speak and expound on the Lord, but they do not know His limits.

ਪੜਿਐ ਨਾਹੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਬੁਝਿਐ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥

parriai naahee bhaedh bujhiai paavanaa ||

Not by studying, but through understanding, is the Lord's Mystery revealed.

~SGGS Ji ang 148

ਚਾਰੇ ਬੇਦ ਕਥਹਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥

chaarae baedh kathhehi aakaar

||

The four Vedas speak only of the visible forms.

ਤੀਨਿ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਨੁ ॥

theen avasathhaa kehehi vakhiaan ||

They describe and explain the three states of mind,

ਤੁਰੀਆਵਸਥਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਨੁ ॥੧॥

thureeaavasathhaa sathigur thae har jaan ||1||

but the fourth state, union with the Lord, is known only through the True Guru. ||1||

~SGGS Ji ang 154

Gurur Brahmaa Gurur Vishnu

Gurur Devo Maheshwarah

Guru Saakshaata Parabrahma

Tasmai Shri Guruve Namah

The Guru is Brahma (The God of Creation)

The Guru is Vishnu (The God of Sustenance)

The Guru is Shiva (The God of Annihilation)

My Salutation to such a Guru, who is verily the Supreme God

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥

gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||

The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

~SGGS Ji ang 2

Does this mean that the demi-gods are Supreme? No. But it does mean that the Supreme operates through the demi-gods which reflect His Divine qualities even though imperfectly because in order for nirguna to have form, manifest, it must operate through the pakriti, three gunas empowered by shakti, Maya, and hence suffers from the limitation of being 1. finite and thus deluded by limiting perceptions and, 2. requiring an ego to function in this dimension, haumai.

So rather than creation being a failure, or the devas being some kind of evil forces, Gurbani is exploring the vast mystical teachings of Sanatana Dharma which explain the relationship between the limitless and the limited and the only way to be freed from material bondage, 1. a Satguru 2. Gurmantar Naam.

And where did these Nanakian concepts of Satguru and Gurmantar Naam come from? They came from Hindu Mat.

[Matheen]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Harjas, why have you ignored my post above - with references from Sri Dasam Granth?

A bit busy at the moment, but will answer all your points later on. In the meantime, please (1) define what Hinduism is, (2) what makes one a Hindu.

Thanks!

[Mithar]

Harjas Kaur, I dont understand why you insist on turning Sikhi into a Hindu or Vaishnava faith. Sikhi is nyara and distinct. Both SGGSJ and Sri Dasam Granth are clear on this. Sri Dasam Granth is even more clear on this. I know that it can seem confusing to you when you read traditionally vaishnava names like Ram, Kishan, Beethal being used in Gurbani and being attributed to Vaheguru instead of Vishnu. Even a 5 year old Sikh child knows that these names are names used for Vaheguru in Sikh tradition and not Vishnu. Singh2 jee has done a great job in showing how Sikhi rejects worship of Hindu gods. I remember very clearly that you use the same points over and over which were proven wrong point by point on the Tapoban forum.

[singh2]

Does this mean that the demi-gods are Supreme? No. But it does mean that the Supreme operates through the demi-gods which reflect His Divine qualities even though imperfectly because in order for nirguna to have form, manifest, it must operate through the pakriti, three gunas empowered by shakti, Maya, and hence suffers from the limitation of being 1. finite and thus deluded by limiting perceptions and, 2. requiring an ego to function in this dimension, haumai.

Whole humanity is creation of akal purakh. God operates through his creation. these demigods have no special status as they lived in maya and died in maya.

Verses you are citing here do not accord any special status to these demi Gods howsoever you may try to distort those.

Read below and keep in mind

ਤੇ ਹਮ ਤਮਕਿ ਤਨਕ ਮੋ ਖਾਪੇ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਠਉਰ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਥਾਪੇ ॥

ते हम तमकि तनक मो खापे ॥ तिन की ठउर देवता थापे ॥

I destroyed them in no time and created demigods in their place.

ਤੇ ਭੀ ਬਲਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਉਰਝਾਏ ॥ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥੭॥

ते भी बलि पूजा उरझाए ॥ आपन ही परमेसुर कहाए ॥७॥

They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotent.7.

ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਚੁੱਤ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥

महादेव अचु्त कहायो ॥ बिसन आप ही को ठहिरायो ॥

Mahadeo (Shiva) was called Achyuta (blotless), Vishnu considered himself the Supreme.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਆਪ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਖਾਨਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੮॥

ब्रहमा आप पारब्रहम बखाना ॥ प्रभ को प्रभू न किनहूं जाना ॥८॥

Brahma called himself Para Brahman, none could comprehend the Lord.8.

ਜਿਨਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਤਨਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਕੋ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਤਿਨਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਅਪਨਾ ਰਾਹੁ ਚਲਾਯੋ ॥

जिनि जिनि तनिक सिध को पायो ॥ तिनि तिनि अपना राहु चलायो ॥

Whosoever attained a little spiritual power, he started his own path.

ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਮਮ ਉਚਾਰਿ ਤੇ ਭਯੋ ਦਿਵਾਨਾ ॥੧੬॥

परमेसर न किनहूं पहिचाना ॥ मम उचारि ते भयो दिवाना ॥१६॥

None could comprehend the Lord, but instead became mad with `I-ness`.16.

ਜਿਨ ਮਨ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥ ਸੋ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਨ ਕੇ ਰਾਹ ਨ ਆਯੋ ॥੧੮॥

जिन मन हरि चरनन ठहिरायो ॥ सो सिम्रितन के राह न आयो ॥१८॥

Those who devoted themselves to the Feet of the Lord, they did not adopt the path of the Smritis.18.

Bachitra natak, Dasam granth sahib

And where did these Nanakian concepts of Satguru and Gurmantar Naam come from? They came from Hindu Mat.

that is the opinion of harjas kaur who recently changed her views and turned 180 degree. Gurbani does not say that. Show us from gurbani.

naa ham hindoo na musalmaan.

I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim.

alah raam kay pind paraan. ||4||

My body and breath of life belong to Allah - to Raam - the God of both. ||4||

ang 1136 SGGS ji

In jaap sahib

ਦੇਵ ਭੇਵ ਨ ਜਾਨਈ ਜਿਹ ਬੇਦ ਅਉਰ ਕਤੇਬ ॥

Dev bhev na jaanayee jih beda or kateb

The mystery of God is unknown to any demigod and it is also indescribable by the scriptures -- Vedas, Qran, Bible etc.

(Guru Gobind Singh Jee, Jaap Sahib 82)

ਸਵ ਬਿਰੰਚਿ ਅਰੁ ਸਗਲ ਮੋਨਿ ਜਨ ਗਹਿ ਨ ਸਕਾਹਿ ਗਤਾ ॥

Siv biranch aru sagal moni jan gahi na sakaahi gataa:

Shiva, Brahma and all the silent sages cannot understand the state of the Supreme Being

(sggs 498).

Edited October 23, 2009 by singh2

[Mithar]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Harjas, why have you ignored my post above - with references from Sri Dasam Granth?

A bit busy at the moment, but will answer all your points later on. In the meantime, please (1) define what Hinduism is, (2) what makes one a Hindu.

Thanks!

Yes, Matheen Jee has presented Tukhs from Sri Dasam Granth clearly rejecting the views of Harjas Kaur. I would be interested to know how Harjas Kaur would answer to those Dasam Bani Tukhs. Please do not ignore them.

[HarjasDevi]

please quote Gurbani where it is written

1) That krishna is an avtar and avtar of whom?

Trinity of brahma , vishnu and mahesh has not same status in sikhism as in hinudism.

In Hinudism they are supreme and there is no power above them.

in sikhism they are creation of akal purakh.

ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥

eaek kirasanan

sarab

dhaevaa dhaev

dhaevaa th aathamaa ||

The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥

aathamaa baasudhaevasiy

jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee

niranjan

dhaeo ||4||

Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord;

he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord. ||4||

~SGGS Ji ang 469

Vasudeva Niranjana

"The cult of Krishna Vāsudeva (IAST kṛṣṇa vāsudeva "Krishna, son of Vasudeva") is historically one of the earliest forms of worship in Krishnaism and Vaishnavism. It is believed to be a significant tradition of the early history of the worship of Krishna in antiquity. This tradition is considered separately to other traditions that led to amalgamation at a later stage of the historical development. Other traditions are Bhagavatism and Cult of Gopala, that along with Cult of Bala-Krishna form the basis of current tradition of monotheistic religion of Krishna."Vasudeva

ਜੁਗੁ ਦੁਆਪੁਰੁ ਆਇਆ ਭਰਮਿ ਭਰਮਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥

jug dhuaapur

aaeiaa bharam bharamaaeiaa

har gopee kaanha

oupaae jeeo ||

The Brass Age of Dwaapar Yuga came, and people wandered in doubt. The Lord created the Gopis and Krishna.

ਤਪੁ ਤਾਪਨ ਤਾਪਹਿ ਜਗ ਪੁੰਨ ਆਰੰਭਹਿ ਅਤਿ ਕਿਰਿਆ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥

thap thaapan thaapehi jag punn aaranbhehi ath kiriaa karam kamaae jeeo ||

The penitents practiced penance, they offered sacred feasts and charity, and performed many rituals and religious rites.

ਕਿਰਿਆ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਇਆ ਪਗ ਦੁਇ ਖਿਸਕਾਇਆ ਦੁਇ ਪਗ ਟਿਕੈ ਟਿਕਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥

kiriaa karam kamaaeiaa pag dhue khisakaaeiaa dhue pag ttikai ttikaae jeeo ||

They performed many rituals and religious rites; two legs of religion dropped away, and only two legs remained.

ਮਹਾ ਜੁਧ ਜੋਧ ਬਹੁ ਕੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਪਚੈ ਪਚਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥

mehaa judhh jodhh bahu keenhae vich houmai pachai pachaae jeeo ||

So many heroes waged great wars; in their egos they were ruined, and they ruined others as well.

ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਾਧੁ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਲੁ ਲਹਿ ਜਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥

dheen dhaeiaal

gur

saadhh milaaeiaa mil

sathigur

mal lehi jaae jeeo ||

The Lord, Compassionate to the poor, led them to meet the Holy Guru. Meeting the True Guru, their filth is washed away.

ਜੁਗੁ ਦੁਆਪੁਰੁ ਆਇਆ ਭਰਮਿ ਭਰਮਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥

jug dhuaapur

aaeiaa bharam bharamaaeiaa

har gopee kaanha

oupaae jeeo ||3||

The Brass Age of Dwaapar Yuga came, and the people wandered in doubt. The Lord created the Gopis and Krishna. ||3||

~SGGS Ji ang 445

ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਜਪਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਓਮਾਹਾ ॥

maerae man jap

raam naam

oumaahaa ||

O my mind, joyfully chant the Name of the Lord.

ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਅਨਦੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਲੈ ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਲਾਹਾ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

anadhin anadh hovai vaddabhaagee lai

gur poorai

har laahaa || rehaao ||

Those very fortunate ones are in ecstasy night and day; through the Perfect Guru, they obtain the profit of the Lord's Name. ||Pause||

ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਨਿ ਆਪੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਹਾ ॥

aapae

gopee

kaan hai piaaraa ban aapae

goo

charaahaa ||

The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods.

ਆਪੇ ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੰਸੁ ਵਜਾਹਾ ॥

aapae

saaval

sundharaa piaaraa aapae vans vajaahaa ||

The Beloved Himself is the blue-skinned, handsome one; He Himself plays on His flute.

ਕੁਵਲੀਆ ਪੀੜੁ ਆਪਿ ਮਰਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪਿ ਪਚਾਹਾ ॥੨॥

kuvaleeaa peerr

aap maraaeidhaa piaaraa kar

baalak roop

pachaahaa ||2||

The Beloved Himself took the form of a child, and destroyed Kuwalia-peer, the mad elephant. ||2||

ਆਪਿ ਅਖਾੜਾ ਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪਿ ਚੋਜਾਹਾ ॥

aap akhaarraa paaeidhaa piaaraa kar vaekhai aap chojaahaa ||

The Beloved Himself sets the stage; He performs the plays, and He Himself watches them.

ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਚੰਡੂਰੁ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੁ ਮਾਰਾਹਾ ॥

kar

baalak roop

oupaaeidhaa piaaraa

chanddoor kans kaes

maaraahaa ||

The Beloved Himself assumed the form of the child, and killed the demons Chandoor, Kansa and Kaysee.

ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਲੁ ਭੰਨੈ ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧਾਹਾ ॥੩॥

aapae hee bal aap hai piaaraa bal bhannai moorakh mugadhhaahaa ||3||

The Beloved Himself, by Himself, is the embodiment of power; He shatters the power of the fools and idiots. ||3||

ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਸਿ ਆਪੇ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਹਥਾਹਾ ॥

sabh aapae

jagath

oupaaeidhaa piaaraa vas aapae jugath hathhaahaa ||

The Beloved Himself created the whole world. In His hands He holds the power of the ages.

~SGGS Ji ang 606

Why is Gurbani describing The Beloved as Bala Krishna with dark skin, flute, cows, gopis, etc and also as perfect Guru and creator?

ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਨਊ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਨਾਚਨਾ ॥੧॥

kirasaa

thae jaanoo

har har

naachanthee naachanaa ||1||

Know that, through Krishna, the Lord, Har, Har, the dance of creation dances. ||1||

~SGGS Ji ang 693

1) That krishna is an avtar and avtar of whom?

Hari.

"In Hinduism, Hari (Sanskrit: हरि) is another name of Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa, and appears as the 650th[1] name in the Vishnu sahasranama of Mahabharata. In Sanskrit "Hari" sometimes refers to a colour, yellow, or fawn-coloured/khaki (it is the colour of the Sun and that of Soma)." Hari

"The ten most famous descents of Vishnu are collectively known as the "Dasavatara" ("dasa" in Sanskrit means ten). This list is included in the Garuda Purana (1.86.10"11) and denotes those avatars most prominent in terms of their influence on human society.[3]

The first four are said to have appeared in the Satya Yuga (the first of the four Yugas or ages in the time cycle described within Hinduism). The next three avatars appeared in the Treta Yuga, the eighth descent in the Dwapara Yuga and the ninth in the Kali Yuga. The tenth is predicted to appear at the end of the Kali Yuga in some 427,000 years time.[4]

1. Matsya, the fish, appeared in the Satya Yuga.

2. Kurma, the tortoise, appeared in the Satya Yuga.

3. Varaha, the boar, appeared in the Satya Yuga.

4. Narasimha, the half-man/half-lion appeared in the Satya Yuga.

5. Vamana, the dwarf, appeared in the Treta Yuga.

6. Parashurama, Rama with the axe, appeared in the Treta Yuga.

7. Rama, Ramachandra, the prince and king of Ayodhya, appeared in the Treta Yuga.

8. Krishna (meaning "dark coloured" or "all attractive") appeared in the Dwapara Yuga along with his brother Balarama. According to the Bhagavata Purana, Balarama is said to have appeared in the Dwapara Yuga (along with Krishna) as a descent of Ananta Shesha. He is also counted as an avatar of Vishnu by the majority of Vaishnava movements and is included as the ninth Dasavatara in some versions of the list which contain no reference to Buddha.

9. Gautama Buddha (meaning "the enlightened one") appeared in the Kali Yuga (specifically as Siddhartha Gautama).

10. Kalki ("Eternity", or "time", or "The Destroyer of foulness"), who is expected to appear at the end of Kali Yuga, the time period in which we currently exist, which will end in the year 428899 CE."Das Avtara

ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥

achuth paarabreham paramaesur antharajaamee ||

The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥

madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||

He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥

rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||

The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥

mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||

The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥

jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||

The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥

jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||

The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥

dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||

The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥

dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||

The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥

baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||

O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥

sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||

You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥

banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||

Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥

sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||

You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥

bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||

You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥

gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||

The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥

baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||

O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥

mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||

Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥

dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||

Savior of Dropadi's honor.

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥

kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||

Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥

amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||

The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥

akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||

His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥

abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||

O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥

sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||

The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥

mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||

By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥

kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||

The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥

niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||

He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥

dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||

He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥

saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||

He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥

banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||

He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥

sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||

His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥

sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||

He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥

peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||

The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥

jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||

The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.

ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਬੀਠੁਲਾ ਮੈ ਗਣਤ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਸਰਬੰਗਾ ॥੧੧॥

saaringadhhar bhagavaan beethulaa mai ganath n aavai sarabangaa ||11||

The Archer who draws the bow, the Beloved Lord God; I cannot count all His limbs. ||11||

~SGGS Ji ang 1082

"Jagannath is derived from Jagannātha[1] a Sanskrit name used to describe a form of Krishna. The term means 'master, lord' (nātha) of the 'World, Universe' (jagat)."Jagannath

"Gopala Literally, Sanskrit for "Cow herder"/GOPAL, Child form of KRISNA, the Cowherd Boy who enchanted the Cowherd Maidens with the sound of his flute"

"Keshava (Sanskrit: केशव) is a name of Krishna from within Hindu tradition. (Keshav is the Hindi pronunciation). Keshava appears as the 23rd and 648th names in the Vishnu sahasranama." Keshava

Vishnu-Hari the four armed Lord and Lord of Lakshmi, holding symbols of power: conch, mace, chakr and lotus.

According to various Purana, Vishnu is the ultimate omnipresent reality, is shapeless and omnipresent. However, a strict iconography governs his representation, whether in pictures, icons, or idols:

* He is to be depicted as a four-armed male-form: The four arms indicate his all-powerful and all-pervasive nature...

Vishnu is always to be depicted holding the four attributes associated with him, being:

1. A conch shell or Shankha, named "Panchajanya", held by the upper left hand, which represents Vishnu's power to create and maintain the universe. The Panchajanya represents the five elements or Panchabhoota - water, fire, air, earth and sky or space. It also represents the five airs or Pranas that are within the body and mind. The conch symbolizes that Vishnu is the primeval Divine sound of creation and universal maintenance. it also represented as Om. In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna avatara states that of sound vibrations, 'He is Om'.

2. The chakra, a sharp-spinning discus-like weapon, named "Sudarshana", held by the upper right hand, which symbolizes the purified spiritualized mind. The name Sudarshana is derived from two words - Su, which means good, superior, and Darshan, which means vision or Sight; together, it is "Superior Vision". The chakra represents destruction of one's ego in the awakening and realization of the souls original nature and god, burning away of spiritual ignorance and illusion, and developing the higher spiritual vision and insight to realize god.

3. A mace or Gada, named "Kaumodaki", held by the lower left hand, symbolizes Vishnu's divine power is the source all spiritual, mental and physical strength. It also signifies Vishnu's power to destroy materialistic or demoniac tendencies called anarthas; within the person's consciousness that hinders them from reaching god. Vishnu's mace is the power of the Divine within us to spiritually purify and uplift us from our materialistic bonds.

4. A lotus flower or Padma, held by the lower right hand, represents spiritual liberation, Divine perfection, purity and the unfolding of Spiritual consciousness within the individual. The lotus opening its petals in the light of the Sun is indicative of the expansion and awakening of our long dormant, original spiritual consciousness in the light of god. The lotus in Vishnu's hand symbolizes that god is the power and source from which the universe and the individual soul emerges. It represents Divine Truth or Satya, the originator of the rules of conduct or Dharma, and Divine Vedic knowledge or jnana. The lotus also symbolizes that Vishnu is the embodiment of spiritual perfection and purity. Also that He is the wellspring of these qualities and that the individual soul must seek to awaken these intrinsic Divine qualities from Vishnu by surrendering to and linking with Him."Vishnu

Is there any question that Gurbani is calling as Parabrahm and Ajooni the 10 avatars of Vishnu which includes Krishna as also being Satguru and Yuga avatar for Dwapara Yuga?

Why does Gurbani call the Lord Jagannatha Gopaal? Hari? Govind? With flute, dark skin, in Vrindavan with gopis? Vasudeva? Keshava? With four arms?

Because clearly the Nirguna is pervading the sargun forms. While that which has form fades in time, the essence of it which is Niranjana remains Ajooni.

[singh2]

Harjas kaur ji

Beofre you further tout these demigods and call sikhism as a derivative religion, keep in mind that sikhs have been advised to follow shabad Guru. Our Gurus told us not to worship them but follow shabad Guru.

[shaheediyan]

"ਤੇ ਭੀ ਬਲਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਉਰਝਾਏ ॥ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥੭॥

ते भी बलि पूजा उरझाए ॥ आपन ही परमेसुर कहाए ॥७॥

They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotent.7.

ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਚੁੱਤ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥

महादेव अचु्त कहायो ॥ बिसन आप ही को ठहिरायो ॥

Mahadeo (Shiva) was called Achyuta (blotless), Vishnu considered himself the Supreme.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਆਪ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਖਾਨਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੮॥

ब्रहमा आप पारब्रहम बखाना ॥ प्रभ को प्रभू न किनहूं जाना ॥८॥

Brahma called himself Para Brahman, none could comprehend the Lord.8."

Singh2 Veer ji, did you consider that the above tuks are actually describing the blind tribal over zealous passion of the followers of the trimurti - and in actual fact (if one studies Indic religions) it was the follwers that split the trimurti and put their 'devtai' on a pedestal?

It is the divisive nature of these followers in my opinion, that Guru Maharaj is correcting in these tuks - in the tuks where these 'devtai' are used as Gods name - well, there Maharaj is simply showing that the true essence of correct usage of these names is that of the 'one', thereby seperating the mythological stories of the devtai from the supreme essence.

I know you are trying to do good, but I don't think its fair or responsible to drop so many quotes in such a black and white fashion.

Maybe this can help as well - Guru Nanak Dev Jis form is meditated on by many Sikh - esp Nanaksari. They do so because they see Maharaj as Sat Guru - Sarguna Vaheguru - they see no difference between Maharah and Parmatma.

Some of those who praise the Avtars of previous yugs - claimed by Dasmesh Pita as his kul (in Dharmic terms rather than blood line in my opinion), do actually do so in this same way - as seeing them as Sarguna aspect of Prabrahm....

I suppose their is a fine line between recognising the mortal aspect and the immortal aspect... and I feel it is because of this fine line that Nirguna pooja is promoted in Gurbani.

[singh2]

Harjas kaur wrote

ਏ

ਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥

eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||

The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥

aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4||

Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord;

he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord. ||4||

~SGGS Ji ang 469

This is from asa di vaar.Are you fooling around here. This is a metaphor for Waheguru.It is a mistake to derive literal meaning especially when Guru sahib says in asa di vaar a few pages before

naanak nirbha-o nirankaar hor kaytay raam ravaal.

O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.

kaytee-aa kanH kahaanee-aa kaytay bayd beechaar.

There are so many stories of Krishna, so many who reflect over the Vedas.

ang 464, SGGS j

Edited October 23, 2009 by singh2

[singh2]

Shaeediyan ji

This is from autobiogarhical part of Bachitra Natak in Dasam granth. This is coming direct from dasam pita and is akal purakh speech to guru sahib.There is no0t an iota of misunderstanding if we believe that tenth master was our Guru.

The purpose of writing Dasam granth sahib was to study in detail about these demigods as they are mentioned extensively in SGGS ji.

Please read below

ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਾਚ ਇਸ ਕੀਟ ਪ੍ਰਤਿ ॥

अकाल पुरख बाच इस कीट प्रति ॥

The Words of the Non-temporal Lord to this insect:

ਜਬ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਹਮ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਬਨਾਈ ॥ ਦਈਤ ਰਚੇ ਦੁਸਟ ਦੁਖਦਾਈ ॥

जब पहिले हम स्रिसटि बनाई ॥ दईत रचे दुसट दुखदाई ॥

When I created the world in the beginning, I created the ignominious and dreadful Daitya

ਤੇ ਭੁਜ ਬਲ ਬਵਰੇ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਏ ॥ ਪੂਜਤ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਰਹਿ ਗਏ ॥੬॥

ते भुज बल बवरे ह्वै गए ॥ पूजत परम पुरख रहि गए ॥६॥

Who became mad with power and abandoned the worship of Supreme Purusha.6.

ਤੇ ਹਮ ਤਮਕਿ ਤਨਕ ਮੋ ਖਾਪੇ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਠਉਰ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਥਾਪੇ ॥

ते हम तमकि तनक मो खापे ॥ तिन की ठउर देवता थापे ॥

I destroyed them in no time and created gods in their place.

ਤੇ ਭੀ ਬਲਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਉਰਝਾਏ ॥ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥੭॥

ते भी बलि पूजा उरझाए ॥ आपन ही परमेसुर कहाए ॥७॥

They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotent.7.

ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਚੁੱਤ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥

महादेव अचु्त कहायो ॥ बिसन आप ही को ठहिरायो ॥

Mahadeo (Shiva) was called Achyuta (blotless), Vishnu considered himself the Supreme.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਆਪ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਖਾਨਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੮॥

ब्रहमा आप पारब्रहम बखाना ॥ प्रभ को प्रभू न किनहूं जाना ॥८॥

Brahma called himself Para Brahman, none could comprehend the Lord.8.

ਤਬ ਸਾਖੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਸਟ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਦੇਬੇ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥

तब साखी प्रभ असट बनाए ॥ साख नमित देबे ठहिराए ॥

Then I created eight Sakshis in order to give evidence of my Entity.

ਤੇ ਕਹੈ ਕਰੋ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ ਹਮ ਬਿਨ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੯॥

ते कहै करो हमारी पूजा ॥ हम बिन अवरु न ठाकुरु दूजा ॥९॥

But they considered themselves all in all and asked the people to worship them.9.

ਪਰਮ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਜਿਨ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕਰਿ ਈਸਰ ਤਿਨ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨਾ ॥

परम तत को जिन न पछाना ॥ तिन करि ईसर तिन कहु माना ॥

Those who did not comprehend the Lord, they were considered as Ishvara.

ਕੇਤੇ ਸੂਰ ਚੰਦ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਅਗਨਿ ਹੋਤ੍ਰ ਕਈ ਪਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨੈ ॥੧੦॥

केते सूर चंद कहु मानै ॥ अगनि होत्र कई पवन प्रमानै ॥१०॥

Several people worshipped the sun and the moon and several others worshipped Fire and Air.10.

ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਨ੍ਹਾਤ ਕਿਤੇ ਜਲ ਕਰਤ ਬਿਧਾਨਾ ॥

किनहूं प्रभु पाहन पहिचाना ॥ न्हात किते जल करत बिधाना ॥

Several them considered God as stone and several others bathed considering the Lordship of Water.

ਕੇਤਕ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਡਰਪਾਨਾ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਰਾਜ ਕੋ ਧਰਮ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੧੧॥

केतक करम करत डरपाना ॥ धरम राज को धरम पछाना ॥११॥

Considering Dharmaraja as the Supreme representative of Dharma, several bore fear of him in their actions. 11.

ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ ਤੇ ਹਿਆਂ ਆਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਹਵਾਏ ॥

जो प्रभ साख नमित ठहिराए ॥ ते हिआं आइ प्रभू कहवाए ॥

All those whom God established for the revelation of His Supremacy, they called themselves Supreme.

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਬਿਸਰ ਜਾਤੀ ਭੀ ॥ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਪਰਤ ਸੋਭ ਭੀ ॥੧੨॥

ता की बात बिसर जाती भी ॥ अपनी अपनी परत सोभ भी ॥१२॥

They forgot the Lord in their race for supremacy. 12

ਜਬ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਨ ਤਿਨੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਇਨ ਮਨੁਛਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਨਾ ॥

जब प्रभ को न तिनै पहिचाना ॥ तब हरि इन मनुछन ठहिराना ॥

When they did not comprehend the Lord, then I established human beings in their place.

ਤੇ ਭੀ ਬਸਿ ਮਮਤਾ ਹੁਇ ਗਏ ॥ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਪਾਹਨ ਠਹਿਰਏ ॥੧੩॥

ते भी बसि ममता हुइ गए ॥ परमेसर पाहन ठहिरए ॥१३॥

They also were overpowered by `mineness` and exhibited the Lord in statues.13.

ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਧ ਸਾਧ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਏ ॥

तब हरि सिध साध ठहिराए ॥ तिन भी परम पुरखु नही पाए ॥

Then I created Siddhas and sadhs, who also could not realize the Lord.

ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਤ ਭਯੋ ਜਗਿ ਸਿਆਨਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਨ ਅਪਨੋ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਨਾ ॥੧੪॥

जे कोई होत भयो जगि सिआना ॥ तिन तिन अपनो पंथु चलाना ॥१४॥

On whomsoever wisdom dawned, he started his own path. 14.

ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਬੈਰ ਬਾਦ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਬਢਾਯੋ ॥

परम पुरख किनहूं नह पायो ॥ बैर बाद अहंकार बढायो ॥

None could realise the Supreme Lord, but instead spread strife, enmity and ego.

ਪੇਡ ਪਾਤ ਆਪਨ ਤੇ ਜਲੈ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਪੰਥ ਨ ਕੋਊ ਚਲੈ ॥੧੫॥

पेड पात आपन ते जलै ॥ प्रभ कै पंथ न कोऊ चलै ॥१५॥

The tree and the leaves began to burn, because of the inner fire.None followed the path of the Lord.15.

ਜਿਨਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਤਨਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਕੋ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਤਿਨਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਅਪਨਾ ਰਾਹੁ ਚਲਾਯੋ ॥

जिनि जिनि तनिक सिध को पायो ॥ तिनि तिनि अपना राहु चलायो ॥

Whosoever attained a little spiritual power, he started his own path.

ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਮਮ ਉਚਾਰਿ ਤੇ ਭਯੋ ਦਿਵਾਨਾ ॥੧੬॥

परमेसर न किनहूं पहिचाना ॥ मम उचारि ते भयो दिवाना ॥१६॥

None could comprehend the Lord, but instead became mad with `I-ness`.16.

ਪਰਮ ਤੱਤ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਆਪ ਆਪ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਉਰਝਾਨਾ ॥

परम त्त किनहूं न पछाना ॥ आप आप भीतरि उरझाना ॥

Nobody recognized the Supreme Essence, but was entangled within himself.

ਤਬ ਜੇ ਜੇ ਰਿਖਿ ਰਾਜ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਆਪਨ ਪੁਨ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਚਲਾਏ ॥੧੭॥

तब जे जे रिखि राज बनाए ॥ तिन आपन पुन सिम्रित चलाए ॥१७॥

All the great rishis (sages), who were then created, produced their own Smritis.17.

ਜੇ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਨ ਕੇ ਭਏ ਅਨੁਰਾਗੀ ॥ ਤਿਨਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥

जे सिम्रितन के भए अनुरागी ॥ तिनि तिनि क्रिआ ब्रहम की तिआगी ॥

All those who became followers of these smritis, they abandoned the path of the Lord.

ਜਿਨ ਮਨ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥ ਸੋ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਨ ਕੇ ਰਾਹ ਨ ਆਯੋ ॥੧੮॥

जिन मन हरि चरनन ठहिरायो ॥ सो सिम्रितन के राह न आयो ॥१८॥

Those who devoted themselves to the Feet of the Lord, they did not adopt the path of the Smritis.18.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਚਾਰ ਹੀ ਬੇਦ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਲੋਕ ਤਿਹ ਕਰਮ ਚਲਾਏ ॥

ब्रहमा चार ही बेद बनाए ॥ सरब लोक तिह करम चलाए ॥

Brahma composed all the four Vedas, all the people followed the injunctions contained in them.

ਜਿਨ ਕੀ ਲਿਵ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਲਾਗੀ ॥ ਤੇ ਬੇਦਨ ਤੇ ਭਏ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥੧੯॥

जिन की लिव हरि चरनन लागी ॥ ते बेदन ते भए तिआगी ॥१९॥

Those who were devoted to the Feet of the Lord, they abandoned the Vedas.19.

ਜਿਨ ਮਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬਨ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੇ ਭਏ ਅਨੁਰਾਗੀ ॥

जिन मति बेद कतेबन तिआगी ॥ पारब्रहम के भए अनुरागी ॥

Those who abandoned the path of the Vedas and Katebs, they became the devotees of the Lord.

ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਗੂੜ ਮਤਿ ਜੇ ਚਲਹੀ ॥ ਭਾਤਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਦੁਖਨ ਸੋ ਦਲਹੀ ॥੨੦॥

तिन के गूड़ मति जे चलही ॥ भाति अनेक दुखन सो दलही ॥२०॥

Whosoever follows their path, he crushes various types of sufferings.20.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਸਹਿਤ ਜਾਤਨ ਸੰਦੇਹਿ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਸੰਗਿ ਨ ਛੋਡਤ ਨੇਹ ॥

जे जे सहित जातन संदेहि ॥ प्रभ को संगि न छोडत नेह ॥

Those who consider the castes illusory, they do not abandon the love of the Lord.

ਤੇ ਤੇ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰੀ ਕਹ ਜਾਹੀ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਕਛੁ ਨਾਹੀਂ ॥੨੧॥

ते ते परम पुरी कह जाही ॥ तिन हरि सिउ अंतरु कछु नाहीं ॥२१॥

When they leave the world, they go to the abode of the Lord, and there is no difference between them and the Lord.21.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਜੀਯ ਜਾਤਨ ਤੇ ਡਰੈ ॥ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਤਜਿ ਤਿਨ ਮਗਿ ਪਰੈ ॥

जे जे जीय जातन ते डरै ॥ परम पुरख तजि तिन मगि परै ॥

Those who fear the castes and follow their path, abandoning the Supreme Lord.

ਤੇ ਤੇ ਨਰਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮੋ ਪਰਹੀ ॥ ਬਾਰ ਬਾਰ ਜਗ ਮੋ ਬਪੁ ਧਰਹੀ ॥੨੨॥

ते ते नरक कुंड मो परही ॥ बार बार जग मो बपु धरही ॥२२॥

They fall into hell and transmigrate again and again.22.

ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਬਹੁਰ ਦਤ ਉਪਜਾਇਓ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਅਪਨਾ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਇਓ ॥

तब हरि बहुर दत उपजाइओ ॥ तिन भी अपना पंथु चलाइओ ॥

Then I created Dutt, who also started his own path.

ਕਰ ਮੋ ਨਖ ਸਿਰ ਜਟਾਂ ਸਵਾਰੀ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥੨੩॥

कर मो नख सिर जटां सवारी ॥ प्रभ की क्रिआ कछु न बिचारी ॥२३॥

His followed have long nail in their hands and matted hair on their heads . They did not understand the ways of the Lord.23

ਪੁਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਰਖ ਕੌ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਸਿਖ ਕਰੇ ਤਿਨਹੂੰ ਬਡ ਰਾਜਾ ॥

पुनि हरि गोरख कौ उपराजा ॥ सिख करे तिनहूं बड राजा ॥

Then I created Gorakh, who made great kings his disciples.

ਸ੍ਰਵਨ ਫਾਰਿ ਮੁਦ੍ਰਾ ਦੁਐ ਡਾਰੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤ ਰੀਤਿ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥੨੪॥

स्रवन फारि मुद्रा दुऐ डारी ॥ हरि की प्रीत रीति न बिचारी ॥२४॥

His disciples wear rings in their ears and do not know the love of the lord.24.

ਪੁਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਮਾਨੰਦ ਕੋ ਕਰਾ ॥ ਭੇਸ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਕੋ ਜਿਨਿ ਧਰਾ ॥

पुनि हरि रामानंद को करा ॥ भेस बैरागी को जिनि धरा ॥

Then I created Ramanand, who adopted the path of Bairagi.

ਕੰਠੀ ਕੰਠਿ ਕਾਠ ਕੀ ਡਾਰੀ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਨ ਕਛੂ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥੨੫॥

कंठी कंठि काठ की डारी ॥ प्रभ की क्रिआ न कछू बिचारी ॥२५॥

Around his neck he wore necklace of wooden beads and did not comprehend the ways of the Lord.25.

ਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਉਪਜਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਨ ਅਪਨੇ ਰਾਹ ਚਲਾਏ ॥

जे प्रभु परम पुरख उपजाए ॥ तिन तिन अपने राह चलाए ॥

All the great Purushas created by me started their own paths.

ਮਹਾਦੀਨ ਤਬ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਅਰਬ ਦੇਸ ਕੋ ਕੀਨੋ ਰਾਜਾ ॥੨੬॥

महादीन तब प्रभ उपराजा ॥ अरब देस को कीनो राजा ॥२६॥

Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26.

ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਏਕ ਪੰਥ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਲਿੰਗ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੀਨੇ ਸਭ ਰਾਜਾ ॥

तिन भी एक पंथ उपराजा ॥ लिंग बिना कीने सभ राजा ॥

He started a religion and circumcised all the kings.

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਅਪਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਯੋ ॥੨੭॥

सभ ते अपना नामु जपायो ॥ सति नामु काहूं न द्रिड़ायो ॥२७॥

He caused all to utter his name and did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone.27.

ਸਭ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਉਰਝਾਨਾ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾਹੂ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥

सभ अपनी अपनी उरझाना ॥ पारब्रहम काहू न पछाना ॥

Everyone placed his own interest first and foremost and did not comprehend the Supreme Brahman.

ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਹਰਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਬੁਲਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਮ ਕਹਿ ਕੈ ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥੨੮॥

तप साधत हरि मोहि बुलायो ॥ इम कहि कै इह लोक पठायो ॥२८॥

When I was busy in the austere devotion, the Lord called me and sent me to this world with the following words.28.

Bachitra natak, Dasam granth

[singh2]

harjas wrote

ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਨਊ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਨਾਚਨਾ ॥੧॥

kirasaa thae jaanoo har har naachanthee naachanaa ||1||

Know that, through Krishna, the Lord, Har, Har, the dance of creation dances. ||1||

~SGGS Ji ang 693

Again distortion here. Read whole shabad and try to understand. Here krishna is a metaphor for maya.

[shaheediyan]

So if many Sikhs today do ardaas to or pooj Guru Nanak Dev Ji, does that mean that Guru Nanak Dev Ji has asked them to....

Or if many Sikhs today denounce all other faiths/margs and say Guru Nanak Dev Ji is supreme, does that mean Guru Nanak Dev Ji asked them to?

Also "He caused all to utter his name and did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone.27."

Does Dasmesh Pita not use many of the names Muhammed Sahib gave to people with firmness within Jaap Sahib?

I am not claiming this or that, I am simply posing the question.

[Guest]

Harjas Kaur,

you said "Sikhi came from hindumat"

I highly disagree with that statement. Let me ask you where does hindumat came from? Origin of truth cannot be binded with hindumat only. Origin of truth- nirgun is nyara and above all. Sanatan Dharam may be the first one to discover truth/nirgun through previous yugas of sargun avtar but cannot claim manoply over nirgun. Previous sargun avtars of previous yugas based on their understanding of nirgun started various mats/school of thoughts within sanatan dharam. One can say school of thought have similarity, but one cannot claim that gurmat school of thoughts came from sanatan/hindu school of thought of previous yugas.

Truth/Nirgun does not change, everything else have updahi. Truth is same but perceived different by previous avtars as you can tell by different school of thoughts. It's because of that reason gurbani uniquness is gurbani supports meta reality which shows there is quite bit of diversity within gurmat itself i.e- sachkhand being state of mind or spiritual realm both are parvan in SIkhism. You need to deeply study nirgun/sargun through framework of gurbani.

Gurmat is nyara, it also came from nirgun, direct link with nirgun. Therefore, sikhi didn't came from other mats. There are different school of thoughts within Gurmat Sikhi. Gurmat is nyara just like how vedant is nyara from vaishanav mat of snanatan hindu mat.

So its ridiculous to first of all to claim sikhi came from hindumat as hindumat itself cannot be described through one school of thought but many school of thoughts. There is soo much diversity within hindumat that scholar cannot write a book and describe hinduism through one specific school of thought. There are many significant difference between school of thoughts within hinduism of understanding of nirgun/sargun paratma within Hinduism. I am not saying they are wrong but there are major differences within hindumat itself.

At at end to think hinduism hold monopoly over truth is equally wrong to say gurmat hold monopoly over truth. It appears debates are simply going from one extreme to another.

[singh2]

It is really nonsense to link sikhism with santan dharma or any other school of thought. it is well known fact that santan dharma endorses caste system.Wheras a sikh takes khande bate di pahul where all from various backgrounds drink amrit from same bowl. That is outright rejection of santanism.

It is true that sikhism does not claim exclusive rights over God. but it is equally true that our Guru sahibs gave us a different and simpler method to realize God. While we respect other religions but we resist any attempt to undermine independent status of our religion.

Gurus gave us shabd Guru to realize God. Shabad was always there before this creation came into existence and will be there when this universe ends.

Guru sahib has advised us

satgur no sabh ko vaykh-daa jaytaa jagat sansaar.

All the living beings of the world behold the True Guru.

dithai mukat na hova-ee jichar sabad na karay veechaar.

One is not liberated by merely seeing Him, unless one contemplates the Word of His Shabad.

ang 594, SGGS

Edited October 23, 2009 by singh2

[drawrof]

I appreciate and welcome harjas kaur to the website. I look forward to reading your posts and learn from them. I would like some clarification in some areas and also get your point of view on the following:

Was the term 'snatan' not a collective reaction to the colonial threat? would their imposition of a 'unified India' (I scoff at the Idea of a unified India because it was a subcontinent, not because of diversity but because entrance through the khyber pass and waters were the only way to enter this enclaved set of kingdoms. Mind you, a unified India, I believe was a reaction to imperial nationalism. Before I get typecasted, I'd like to share that my mother's real mamaji was shaheed bhagat singh and that through family, I have been exposed to India's nationalism)not a reaction of the british? I am not supporting khalistan,pakistan,bangladesh...but would they not have the right (by mere historical proofs) to exist as their own countries. Dividing countries on 'imposed' religious differences or accentuated/forumalated religious identities is quite pathetic....the right wing, intolerant, fundamentalists will always be in control.

Getting back to the 'snatan' ideal, would a heterolingual society that does not impose 'hindi' as the national language be supported? would it/could it be possible for a sikh to not feel ostracised and picked on?

I really like your interpretation of devi/devtay and raags. I see a strong 'saiv' influence in your explanation. how does that fit into 'snatan' thought...some vaishnu's see krishna as god/complete...above nirgun, how does that fit into the theory of devi/devtay...

also, I don't believe in a literalist translation of gurbani. If that is what it was meant to be then raag, poetry would not be the mode of communication; It would have been written like a hukamnama. I do believe in the authenticity of 'uthanka's' and would suggest that the fact that guru nanak was talking to a vaishnu pundit from kurukshetar be taken into account when citing the 'ek krishnan'n' tuk. For refrence any sampardai sateek would give the whole story. A vaishnu would not relate to shiv/shakti as readily...if you believe both are the same and it is a semantic issue; I respect that and beg your pardon for putting words in your mouth

Please respond jee aya nu

[HarjasDevi]

"Again distortion here. Read whole shabad and try to understand. Here krishna is a metaphor for maya."

Krishna is NOT a metaphor for Maya. For one thing Maya is feminine Shakti and Krishan is male. But you are entitled to your opinion. I don't believe that every sanatan reference in Gurbani is a mere metaphor to invalidate it's legitimacy as the concept it clearly presents.

If the creation is dancing because of Krishna, it's not as symbolism of Shakti, but because of His flute to entice, and since He is a Vishnu avatar and symbolic of preservation of creation, He represents that aspect which is life-bringing as opposed to the traditional image of Shiva Nataraj dance of destruction. But the point it, Gurbani illustrates Krishna as the power of God in the tuuk.

It's not a war of personalities. God is God, and He is all pervading His creation. So it doesn't matter if you call God as Krishna or Ram or Allah or Durga. God is still the same God. Only our concepts are limited in understanding exactly what God is. Gurbani would make no reference to Krishna at all if the Guru Sahibaan were against Him or disrespected His symbolism as worthless, let alone describe Him as the very God, metaphor or not. You simply can't erase Krishna from Gurbani. And there He is, representing Sanatan world-view and philosophical systems.

[singh2]

So if many Sikhs today do ardaas to or pooj Guru Nanak Dev Ji, does that mean that Guru Nanak Dev Ji has asked them to....

Or if many Sikhs today denounce all other faiths/margs and say Guru Nanak Dev Ji is supreme, does that mean Guru Nanak Dev Ji asked them to?

Also "He caused all to utter his name and did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone.27."

Does Dasmesh Pita not use many of the names Muhammed Sahib gave to people with firmness within Jaap Sahib?

I am not claiming this or that, I am simply posing the question.

The meaning of that line is Mohammad himself became God instead of preaching truthfulness of supreme Lord.insikhism God does not take birth and does not die, hence he has no names. Various names given to him are functional names only.

kirtam naam kathay tayray jihbaa.

With my tongue I chant the Names given to You.

sat naam tayraa paraa poorbalaa.

'Sat Naam' is Your perfect, primal Name.

ang 1083, SGGS

In jaap sahib also guru sahib writes

ਤ੍ਵ ਸਰਬ ਨਾਮ ਕਥੈ ਕਵਨ ਕਰਮ ਨਾਮ ਬਰਣਤ ਸੁਮਤਿ ॥੧॥

त्व सरब नाम कथै कवन करम नाम बरणत सुमति ॥१॥

All Thy Names cannot be told. That is why aise people have called you by functional names

Jaap sahib, Dasam granth

We should not be misled by these given names.

[singh2]

Krishna is NOT a metaphor for Maya.

Of course krishna is a metaphor for maya in this shabad.

here pundrak vana means flower in woods and that is refrence to akal purakh.

Then came creation came from that flower.

This shows that akal purakh was the primal being and then he created creation

and this creation is dancing. This is maya of Aakal purakh.

So krishana is not akal purakh here but maya clubbed with creation.

pahil puree-ay pundrak vanaa.

First of all, the lotuses bloomed in the woods;

taa chay hansaa saglay janaaN.

from them, all the swan-souls came into being.

krisnaa tay jaan-oo har har naachantee naachnaa. ||1||

Know that, through Krishna, the Lord, Har, Har, the dance of creation dances. ||1||

pahil pursaabiraa.

First of all, there was only the Primal Being.

athon pursaadmaraa.

From that Primal Being, Maya was produced.

)

asgaa as usgaa.

All that is, is His.

har kaa baagraa naachai pinDhee meh saagraa. ||1|| rahaa-o.

In this Garden of the Lord, we all dance, like water in the pots of the Persian wheel. ||1||Pause||

naachantee gopee jannaa.

Women and men both dance.

na-ee-aa tay bairay kanna.

There is no other than the Lord.

tarak na chaa.

Don't dispute this,

bharmee-aa chaa.

and don't doubt this.

kaysvaa bach-unee a-ee-ay ma-ee-ay ayk aan jee-o. ||2||

The Lord says, "This creation and I are one and the same."||2||

pinDhee ubhkalay sansaaraa.

Like the pots on the Persian wheel, sometimes the world is high, and sometimes it is low.

bharam bharam aa-ay tum chay du-aaraa.

Wandering and roaming around, I have come at last to Your Door.

qU kunu ry ] (694-1, DnwsrI, Bgq nwmdyv jI)

too kun ray.

"Who are you?"

mai jee. naamaa. ho jee.

"I am Naam Dayv, Sir."

aalaa tay nivaarnaa jam kaarnaa. ||3||4||

O Lord, please save me from Maya, the cause of death. ||3||4

ang 693

The shabd you quoted is by Bhagat nam dev ji. Here is what Bhagat Ji writes elsewhere in SGGS ji. His belief system is quite clear indicating that he did not believe in these demigods. he believed in One supreme Lord.

So stop touting your fantasies here.

paaNday tumraa raamchand so bhee aavat daykhi-aa thaa.

O Pandit, I saw your Raam Chand coming too

raavan saytee sarbar ho-ee ghar kee jo-ay gavaa-ee thee. ||3||

; he lost his wife, fighting a war against Raawan. ||3||

hindoo anHaa turkoo kaanaa.

The Hindu is sightless; the Muslim has only one eye.

duhaaN tay gi-aanee si-aanaa.

The spiritual teacher is wiser than both of them.ihMdU pUjY dyhurw

hindoo poojai dayhuraa musalmaan maseet.

The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque.

)

naamay so-ee sayvi-aa jah dayhuraa na maseet. ||4||3||7||

Naam Dayv serves that Lord, who is not limited to either the temple or the mosque. ||4||3||7||

ang 875

Edited October 23, 2009 by singh2

[HarjasDevi]

"you said "Sikhi came from hindumat"

I highly disagree with that statement. Let me ask you where does hindumat came from? Origin of truth cannot be binded with hindumat only.

Hindu Mat linguistically only means the teachings which originally came from region of Hindustan and are collectively known as Sanatana Dharma, which means universal responsibility to the Truth. And those teachings form the core basis of Sruti which is the utterances of the Rishis and written in the Vedas. Devanagari script is said to come from higher realms of the devas. So the origin of Sanatana Dharma is ancient.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥

guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||

The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas;

the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

~SGGS Ji ang 2

Buddhism is very unique in comparison with Hinduism. Yet no one disputes it's derivation from Hindu Mat. Not even Buddhists. Sikhism is also unique. But the question is, is Sikhism unique enough to stand independently from Hindu concepts and philosophies? It is my sincere opinion that it does not stand independent of those concepts but utilizes them.

For example, Gurbani teaches reincarnation and transmigration. Gurbani teaches heavenly realms and hell realms, bhutas, jams, and a Jama Dhuta.

Are these unique concepts?

No. They are all found within the body of sanatan scriptures.

Gurbani teaches that you must have a Satguru to obtain mukti. It teaches about jivan mukta.

Is these concepts unique only to Sikhi? No. They are derived from Hindu scriptures.

Gurbani describes a Guru Shishya/chela relationship and deeksha by charan pahul and Gurmantara to achieve liberation. Is this a unique concept?

No. It is derived from Hindu scriptures.

Gurbani describes mukti and samadhi and the fourth state of consciousness, also known as Turiya. It believes in the sound current of the Nada, the Shabda, the anehad Shabad, and Naam Japna.

Are these unique concepts?

No. they all derive from Hindu scriptures.

Gurbani describes the panj bhootas: kam, krodh, lobh, moh, ahankar. Are these unique concepts?

No. They all derive from Hindu scriptures.

Gurbani describes becoming a sacrifice and surrendering your head to Guru. Is this a unique concept

No. It is derived from Hindu scruptures.

The Singh surname, the martial tradition, the wearing of dastar, the keeping of kesas and dhari, gatka. Are these unique traditions?

No. they are derived from Shaiva Rajput traditions.

The Akali Nihang roop, is it a unique tradition?

No. It is derived from Shiva Ji's roop including wearing of Shiva linga and Chandi yoni.

The tying of jura over the dasm duar. Is this a unique concept?

No. it is derived from Shaiva Sutras.

Gurbani talks about the three gunas, nirgun-sargun, and concept of Maya. Are these unique concepts?

No. they are all derived from Hindu scriptures.

Gurbani talks about the all-pervading Oneness of God and duality. Are these unique concepts?

No. They are arising out of Hindu scriptures.

So my question, if Sikhism, which means disciple-ism and hence no Sikh Guru could ever be His own shishya, if Sikhism is entirely new and entirely distinct, then why is it so blatantly Sanatan?

If it is sanatan in it's concepts, world-view and teachings, then it is clearly a sect within Sanatana Dharma. It doesn't have any teaching which is utterly so unique as to be unheard of within other sects of Hinduism.

"Hindus are conditioned to regard Sikhism, Buddhism and Jainism as panths or sects. Says celebrated columnist Varsha Bhosle, "Hinduism is a generic name given to all the faiths which have roots in India and believe in Parmatma (God), Prarthana (prayer), Punerjanma (reincarnation), Purushartha (Karma) and Prani Daya (kindness to all living beings)." Sikhism believes in all of these.

Bhosle cites the speech of one of the greatest modern Sikh leaders, Master Tara Singh, at a meeting in Bombay on August 19, 1964, who declared: "Sikhs and Hindus are not separate. Sikhs will survive only if Hindus survive. Sikhs are part and parcel of the Hindu Society. Guru Govind Singhji brought in Gurumukhi the wisdom and philosophy from our scriptures and Puranas. Are we going to give up this heritage?" Sikh-Hindu Similarity

Shiva's linga and Chandi's yoni worn over the agni chakr, third eye.