shaheediyan Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Bhenji Harjas Kaur, How about the mention of Semetic introduced personalities such as the Angel of Death - Azrael? ਅਜਰਾਈਲੁ ਫਰੇਸਤਾ ਤਿਲ ਪੀੜੇ ਘਾਣੀ ॥੨੭॥ How does this reconcile with our theory that Sikhi fits squarely into Snaatan Dharma? How about Gurbanis usage of the many names of God in Islam... Does this not tell us that Sikhi holds a unique position - different from previous 'pure' Snaatn Margs? I am not saying Sikhi has not utilised 'Snaatan' concepts and culture, but it has also utilised many Semetic based concepts and cultures... this has less to do with Sikhi fitting into the Snaatan/Hindu structure and more to do with the continuation of truth - in its most pure form (unadulterated due to time and political factor) - a truth which unlike before, has broken geographical/linguistic/religious bounderies in every way and encompassed all. Just some thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) Still no definition for Hinduism or what makes one a Hindu/ how to become a Hindu? There are common links in all religions, as Bahadur showed us lol. That doesn't affect the reality that Sikhi is distinct. Harjas, you yourself quoted Guru Ji saying they are neither Hindu nor Muslim. If Guru Ji is not Hindu, how are his Sikhs Hindu? "ਕੋਊ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਬਤੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਕਹੈ ਬਿਸ਼ਨੋ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਇਕ ਜਾਹਿ ਭਜੇ ਅਘ ਓਘ ਕਟੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਬਾਰ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਅਰੇ ਜੜ ਅੰਤ ਸਮੈ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਤਜਿ ਜੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਿ ਹੀਏ ਜੋਊ ਥੇ ਅਬ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਆਗੈ ਊ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥" From what you have written in your posts, you need to do more parchar to your Hindu brothers and sisters and get them to stop worshipping the avtars, idols etc. In fact, might as well go the whole way, give their heads and become Sikhs of Guru Sahib and receive Gurmantar. Still no response to the quotes from Sri Dasam Granth? Also, since this thread is meant to be about the Gita, please tell us whether or not Krishna tells Arjuna to worship him? Edited October 23, 2009 by Matheen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Still no definition for Hinduism or what makes one a Hindu/ how to become a Hindu? There are common links in all religions, as Bahadur showed us lol. That doesn't affect the reality that Sikhi is distinct. Harjas, you yourself quoted Guru Ji saying they are neither Hindu nor Muslim. If Guru Ji is not Hindu, how are his Sikhs Hindu? From what you have written above, you need to do more parchar to your Hindu brothers and sisters and get them to stop worshipping the avtars, idols etc. In fact, might as well go the whole way, give their heads and become Sikhs of Guru Sahib. Still no response to the quotes from Sri Dasam Granth? Also, since this thread is meant to be about the Gita, please tell us whether or not Krishna tells Arjuna to worship him? Matheen has made a good point. Harjas Kaur's points are basically common points of all religions and this was proven by Bahadur who tried his level best in showing how Gurmat is a part of Islam. And might I add, Bahadur made some excellent points, he would reply to everysingle post point by point even though he was fighting a losing battle. Harjas Kaur has chosen to ignore the Dasam Granth Tukhs given by Matheen Jee which are in opposition to her Sanatan views. We are still eagerly waiting for her reply to those Dasam Granth Tukhs. Please do not pick and choose to what you want to reply to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Singh2, Based on Sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranvale steek on japji sahib and puratan samparda's. Krishna, Ram Chandar are pooran hari avtar..... Sant Ji writes in their Gurbani Paath Darpan that Krishna was a 16 kala avtar, whilst Guru Sahib is 'anant, agint' (infinte) kala. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) harjas kaur touts here that sikhism is part of santan hinudism. santan hinduism considers shudras as inhuman. per them 40 percent of Hindu population i.e. shudras is not worth being called a human being. This is writeen in manu smrities.You should be ashamed of for equating a religion to khasla panth especially when that religion ordains inhuman practices. God is not pleased by such cruel practices. So all so called religious ideas are of zero value if you do not believe in and practice equality among human beings. It is against principles of modern world. remove these pathetic conditions , change/ abandon your religious texts before claiming to be God oriented religion. and above all remove kaur from your name as it is an insult to khalsa. Edited October 23, 2009 by singh2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Sant Ji writes in their Gurbani Paath Darpan that Krishna was a 16 kala avtar, whilst Guru Sahib is 'anant, agint' (infinte) kala. I am not comparing guru maharaj ji with krishan or ram avtar. I am aware krishan and ram both had 16 and 24 kala. Above was directly from gyani thakur singh ji katha of japji sahib, same katha which is passed to sant kartar singh ji bhindranvale from sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranvale. Also bit how poran and poran tam had their body made out of shud satogun instead of traigun maya also came from gyani thakur singh ji katha of japji sahib and reconfirmed by sant jajgit singh ji harkhowale. Just to recap on avtars: The six types of avtars are as follows; 1. Ansa Avtar- his is the avtar taken by rightious kings such as Raja Janak 2. Aveshya Avtar - this is avtars with spiritual powers 3. Kala Avtar - this is avtars with extrodinary powers usually 14 or 16 powers 4. Nit Avtar - This is the Avtar taken by Sants and Mahatmas Such as Babab Ishar Singh Ji Rara Sahib Walae and many more ! 5. Namit Avtar - This is where God comes to earth for a short time and does not take birth then dissappears following what work needed to be done. Examples of this are Narsingh and the future avtar of Kalki 6. Pooran Avtar - This is the most powerful Avtar of God before guru Nanak Dev Ji. It was a form which contained almost all powers. Examples of this are Ram and Krishan Guru Avtar- That is Guru Sahib. There will never be a greater avtar that will take place. Guru Avtar is great of all 6 of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawrof Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Just an FYI (if not a clarification), The avatarvaad and kala accordance to previous avatars were things that were introduced by pundit tara singh narotam, and his view does not necessarily represent the views of all sikhs, all nirmalay or smurfs for that matter.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 drawrof bro, This might be good time to post some of the comparison between sargun avtar of krishna and sargun avtar of guru maharaj from the book by gyani isher singh nara?. You want to post it for the sangat to see. Lets see his approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawrof Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 I'll try to get to that by sunday. Giani Ishar Singh Nara is of the opinion though that guru gobind singh and krishan ji maharaj were the same. He doesn't say stuff like 'Krishan danced with gopian'...Guru gobind singh ji is better. It'll take some work on this one, how's vivek pradipika coming along? Hey, I'd like to get bir mrigesh granth off of you at some point if you still have it Fatehji Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) Harjas Kaur: what do the Sanatan Manusmritis say about women? Or abour low castes reading the vedas? "Women have no business with the text of the vedas"..... Edited October 23, 2009 by Matheen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarjasDevi Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) Bhenji Harjas Kaur, How about the mention of Semetic introduced personalities such as the Angel of Death - Azrael? ਅਜਰਾਈਲੁ ਫਰੇਸਤਾ ਤਿਲ ਪੀੜੇ ਘਾਣੀ ॥੨੭॥ How does this reconcile with our theory that Sikhi fits squarely into Snaatan Dharma? How about Gurbanis usage of the many names of God in Islam... Does this not tell us that Sikhi holds a unique position - different from previous 'pure' Snaatn Margs? I am not saying Sikhi has not utilised 'Snaatan' concepts and culture, but it has also utilised many Semetic based concepts and cultures... this has less to do with Sikhi fitting into the Snaatan/Hindu structure and more to do with the continuation of truth - in its most pure form (unadulterated due to time and political factor) - a truth which unlike before, has broken geographical/linguistic/religious bounderies in every way and encompassed all. Just some thoughts. Incorporating things like names of angels or names of qualities of God doesn't have any effect on the philosphical concepts and beliefs of the Nanakian system now does it? There is still Guru and shishyas, and reincarnation and Mukti and Naam japo and Ida, pingala and shushmana nadis, dasm duara, chitr and gupt. Sanatana Dharma doesn't disappear because historical associations add new elements. Buddhism has far more radically new concepts than Sikhi, yet every school of Buddhism accepts that Buddhism is a Sanatan philosphy. Tibetan Buddhism for one admits large body of Manichean Christian symbology which is "Semitic." But it doesn't change that it is still a sanatan philosphical structure. Rather then merely incorporating Names of qualities of God, Gurbani describes the actual Gods Krishna with blue skin, flute, gopis in Vrindaban, Vishnu with 4 arms, conch shell, mace, lotus, chakr, etc. These are Sanatan teachings. Some words from Arabic and Farsi, an emphasis on Nirguna, some names of Angels or qualities, some poetry perhaps? Is a beautiful thing. But the overall belief structure is completely Sanatan. Not one thing has changed. The path of salvation for a Sikh is exactly the same as for a Hindu. Can you show me anything within Gurmat which is like a practice or philosophy unique to Islam which would fundamentally alter the beliefs and teachings of the "religion" of Sikhism and make it "unlike" Hindu religion? Edited October 23, 2009 by HarjasKaur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Gurbani describes the actual Gods Krishna with blue skin, flute, gopis in Vrindaban, Vishnu with 4 arms, conch shell, mace, lotus, chakr, etc. Gurbani stresses on greatness of one supreme being and that is Nirankar. The names some ignorants mention for God on ang 1082 does not glorify these deities at all. Guru sahib has taken various names for akal purakh who has no names and given his conclusion in two lines that Oh God your primal name is truth. Show us where these deities are called as Gods in sikhism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) Guru gobind singh wrote his bani wherein he writes frequently about Krishna. i have read dasam granth sahib and i did not find an instance where Guru has asked sikhs to venerate Krishna. Rather he has been shown in very poor light in krishna avtar itself. We have to go by bani of our Guru and not by someone's inference. ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਔ ਬਿਸਨ ਜਪੇ ਤੁਹਿ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਭਲੀ ਬਿਧਿ ਧਿਆਯੋ ॥ क्रिसन औ बिसन जपे तुहि कोटिक राम रहीम भली बिधि धिआयो ॥ Thou hast meditated on millions of Krishnas, Vishnus, Ramas and Rahims. ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਜਪਿਓ ਅਰੁ ਸੰਭੁ ਥਪਿਓ ਤਹਿ ਤੇ ਤੁਹਿ ਕੋ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨ ਬਚਾਯੋ ॥ ब्रहम जपिओ अरु स्मभु थपिओ तहि ते तुहि को किनहूं न बचायो ॥ Thou hast recited the name of Brahma and established Shivalingam, even then none could save thee. ਕੋਟ ਕਰੀ ਤਪਸਾ ਦਿਨ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨ ਕੌਡੀ ਕੋ ਕਾਮ ਕਢਾਯੋ ॥ कोट करी तपसा दिन कोटिक काहूं न कौडी को काम कढायो ॥ Thou hast observed millions of austerities for millions of days, but thou could not be compensated even for the value of a penny . ਕਾਮਕੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਕਸੀਰੇ ਕੇ ਕਾਮ ਨ ਕਾਲ ਕੋ ਘਾਉ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨ ਬਚਾਯੋ ॥੯੭॥ कामकु मंत्र कसीरे के काम न काल को घाउ किनहूं न बचायो ॥९७॥ The Mantra recited for fulfillment of worldly desires doth not even bring the least gain and none of such Mantras can save from the blow of KAL.97. ਕਾਹੇ ਕੋ ਕੂਰ ਕਰੈ ਤਪਸਾ ਇਨ ਕੀ ਕੋਊ ਕੌਡੀ ਕੇ ਕਾਮ ਨ ਐਹੈ ॥ काहे को कूर करै तपसा इन की कोऊ कौडी के काम न ऐहै ॥ Why doth thou indulge in false austerities, because they will not bring in gain of even one penny. ਤੋਹਿ ਬਚਾਇ ਸਕੈ ਕਹੁ ਕੈਸੇ ਕੈ ਆਪਨ ਘਾਵ ਬਚਾਇ ਨ ਐਹੈ ॥ तोहि बचाइ सकै कहु कैसे कै आपन घाव बचाइ न ऐहै ॥ They (deities) cannot save themselves form the blow (of KAL), how can they protect thee? ਕੋਪ ਕਰਾਲ ਕੀ ਪਾਵਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮੈ ਆਪ ਟੰਗਿਓ ਤਿਮ ਤੋਹਿ ਟੰਗੈਹੈ ॥ कोप कराल की पावक कुंड मै आप टंगिओ तिम तोहि टंगैहै ॥ They are all hanging in the blazing fire of anger, therefore they will cause thy hanging similarly. ਚੇਤ ਰੇ ਚੇਤ ਅਜੋ ਜੀਅ ਮੈਂ ਜੜ ਕਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਾਮ ਨ ਐਹੈ ॥੯੮॥ चेत रे चेत अजो जीअ मैं जड़ काल क्रिपा बिनु काम न ऐहै ॥९८॥ O fool! Ruminate now in thy mind; none will be of any use to thee except the grace of KAL.98. ਤਾਹਿ ਪਛਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਨ ਮਹਾ ਪਸੁ ਜਾ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪੁ ਤਿਹੂੰ ਪੁਰ ਮਾਹੀ ॥ ताहि पछानत है न महा पसु जा को प्रतापु तिहूं पुर माही ॥ O foolish beast! Thou doth not recognize Him, Whose Glory hath spread over all the three worlds. ਪੂਜਤ ਹੈ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੇ ਪਰਸੈ ਪਰਲੋਕ ਪਰਾਹੀ ॥ पूजत है परमेसर कै जिह के परसै परलोक पराही ॥ Thou worship those as Gods, by whose touch thou shalt be driven far away from the next world. ਪਾਪ ਕਰੋ ਪਰਮਾਰਥ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਪਾਪਨ ਤੇ ਅਤਿ ਪਾਪ ਲਜਾਹੀ ॥ पाप करो परमारथ कै जिह पापन ते अति पाप लजाही ॥ Thou art committing such sins in th name of parmarath (the subtle truth) that by committing them the Great sins may feel shy. ਪਾਇ ਪਰੋ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਕੇ ਜੜ ਪਾਹਨ ਮੈਂ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਨਾਹੀ ॥੯੯॥ पाइ परो परमेसर के जड़ पाहन मैं परमेसर नाही ॥९९॥ O fool! Fall at the feet of Lord-God, the Lord is not within the stone-idols.99. ਮੋਨ ਭਜੇ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਨ ਤਜੇ ਨਹੀ ਭੇਖ ਸਜੇ ਨਹੀ ਮੂੰਡ ਮੁੰਡਾਏ॥ मोन भजे नही मान तजे नही भेख सजे नही मूंड मुंडाए॥ The Lord cannot be realized by observing silence, by forsaking pride, by adopting guises and by shaving the head. ਕੰਠਿ ਨ ਕੰਠੀ ਕਠੋਰ ਧਰੈ ਨਹੀ ਸੀਸ ਜਟਾਨ ਕੇ ਜੂਟ ਸੁਹਾਏ ॥ कंठि न कंठी कठोर धरै नही सीस जटान के जूट सुहाए ॥ He cannot be realized by wearing Kanthi (a short necklace of small beads of different kinds made of wood or seeds worn by mendicants or ascetics) for severe austerities or Thy making a knot of matted hair on the head. ਸਾਚੁ ਕਹੋਂ ਸੁਨ ਲੈ ਚਿਤ ਦੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੀਨ ਦਿਆਲ ਕੀ ਸਾਮ ਸਿਧਾਏ ॥ साचु कहों सुन लै चित दै बिनु दीन दिआल की साम सिधाए ॥ Listen attentively, I speak Turth, Thou shalt not achieve the target without going under the Refuge of the LORD, Who is ever Merciful to the lowly. Bachitra natak, dasam granth kabir ji ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਜੁ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਨੰਦ ਕੋ ਨੰਦਨੁ ਨੰਦ ਸੁ ਨੰਦਨੁ ਕਾ ਕੋ ਰੇ ॥ You say that Krishna was Nand's son, but whose son was Nand himself? ਧਰਨਿ ਅਕਾਸੁ ਦਸੋ ਦਿਸ ਨਾਹੀ ਤਬ ਇਹੁ ਨੰਦੁ ਕਹਾ ਥੋ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ When there was no earth or ether or the ten directions, where was this Nand then? ||1||Pause|| ਸੰਕਟਿ ਨਹੀ ਪਰੈ ਜੋਨਿ ਨਹੀ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਜਾ ਕੋ ਰੇ ॥ He does not fall into misfortune, and He does not take birth; His Name is the Immaculate Lord. [ਕਬੀਰ ਕੋ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਐਸੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਮਾਈ ਨ ਬਾਪੋ ਰੇ ॥੨॥੧੯॥੭੦॥ Kabeer's Lord is such a Lord and Master, who has no mother or father. ||2||1 Guru gobind singh ji ਏਕ ਕੋ ਛਾਡਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਜੈ ਸੁਕਦੇਵ ਪਰਾਸਰ ਬਯਾਸ ਝੁਠਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਸਜੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੌ ਬਿਧ ਨੈਕ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੫॥ एक को छाडि अनेक भजै सुकदेव परासर बयास झुठानयो ॥ फोकट धरम सजे सभ ही हम एक ही कौ बिध नैक प्रमानयो ॥१५॥ Relinquishing the One Lord, you remember many gods and goddesses; in this way you prove Shukdev, Prashar, vyas as liars; all the so-called religions are hollow; I only accept the One Lord as the Providence.15. 33 swaiyes Dasam granth sahib Edited October 23, 2009 by singh2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarjasDevi Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Harjas Kaur: what do the Sanatan Manusmritis say about women? Or abour low castes reading the vedas? "Women have no business with the text of the vedas"..... The Manu Smritis do not have the authority of Sruti, moreover they were the first scripture which the British "translated" and manipulated in order to establish Anglo-Saxon Case Law in British India as an "authoritative" document with force of law, which most Hindu sampradayas do not even recognize, and is also why the "Indian legal system" wound up being a mere copy of the English one. No one recognizes the authority of Manu Smritis over the Vedas and Puranas. Every sect acknowledges passages have been manipulated and interpolated by the British and that the modern caste varna system is a corruption of the Divine intent. Vaishnavism and Shaivism introduced caste based reforms, started langar halls, admited outcastes and women as both chelas and Gurus hundreds of years before Guru Nanak Dev i was ever born. Most Vaishnav sampradayas were a reform against brahminism to begin with. Or did you miss all those low caste Vaishnav Bhagats whose bani has become Gurbani? "ManuSmriti is widely quoted, especially by the British Colonial rulers of India as the "law-book" of the Hindus. Some Hindus allege that the colonial rulers, like Robert Clive (admittedly a bully and scoundrel) and Lord Macaulay (who saw the need to subvert and exploit other civilized societies for Her Majesty), would have found it a useful tool. It is equally possible that the British, like the other European nations, would have found existing social structures in Asia, simply beyond their comprehension. Since Hinduism does not permit a priestly order (there are no ordained priests, no hierarchy of priests, no Popes, no Ayatollahs), the British must have found governance of a conquered nation posing insurmountable problems. At no time in history have all Hindus followed Manu Smriti or any other law book completely, like the Shariah is done in Islamic regimes. Further, the Smritis by their very nature are deemed inferior to the Shrutis (the Vedas). In any question of dispute between the Shruti and the Smriti, the former will prevail over the latter. However, some selfish people over the ages have quoted or interpreted the Manu Smriti as an excuse to justify Brahmin supremacy, the alleged sanctity of the caste system and the lower status given to the so-called Dalits." Manu Smriti According to Manu Smritis, varna is hereditary. According to the Vedas and Puranas, Varna is a consequence of an individuals dispositions. ਅਧਮ ਚੰਡਾਲੀ ਭਈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣੀ ਸੂਦੀ ਤੇ ਸ੍ਰੇਸਟਾਈ ਰੇ ॥ adhham chanddaalee bhee brehamanee soodhee thae sraesattaaee rae || The lowly outcaste becomes a Brahmin, and the untouchable sweeper becomes pure and sublime. ~SGGS Ji ang 381 Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.11.35 yasya yal laksanam proktam pumso varnabhivyanjakam yad anyatrapi drsyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiset SYNONYMS yasya--of whom; yat--which; laksanam--symptom; proktam--described (above); pumsah--of a person; varna-abhivyanjakam--indicating the classification (brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, etc.); yat--if; anyatra--elsewhere; api--also; drsyeta--is seen; tat--that; tena--by that symptom; eva--certainly; vinirdiset--one should designate. TRANSLATION If one shows the symptoms of being a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra, as described above, even if he has appeared in a different class, he should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification. PURPORT Herein it is clearly stated by Narada Muni that one should not be accepted as a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra according to birth, for although this is going on now, it is not accepted by the sastras. As stated in Bhagavad-gita (4.13), catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah. Thus the four divisions of society--brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra--are to be ascertained according to qualities and activities. If one was born in a brahmana family and has acquired the brahminical qualifications, he is to be accepted as a brahmana; otherwise, he should be considered a brahma-bandhu. Similarly, if a sudra acquires the qualities of a brahmana, although he was born in a sudra family, he is not a sudra; because he has developed the qualities of a brahmana, he should be accepted as a brahmana. The Krsna consciousness movement is meant to develop these brahminical qualities. Regardless of the community in which one was born, if one develops the qualities of a brahmana he should be accepted as a brahmana, and he then may be offered the order of sannyasa. Unless one is qualified in terms of the brahminical symptoms, one cannot take sannyasa. In designating a person a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra, birth is not the essential symptom. This understanding is very important. Herein Narada Muni distinctly says that one may be accepted according to the caste of his birth if he has the corresponding qualifications, but otherwise he should not. One who has attained the qualifications of a brahmana, regardless of where he was born, should be accepted as a brahmana. Similarly, if one has developed the qualities of a sudra or a candala, regardless of where he was born, he should be accepted in terms of those symptoms." ~Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter 18 TEXT 41 ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜੋ ਬਿੰਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤਾ ॥ so braahaman breham jo bindhae har saethee rang raathaa || He alone is a Brahmin, who knows the Lord Brahma, and is attuned to the Love of the Lord. ~SGGS Ji ang 68 ਬਬਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜਾਨਤ ਤੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ॥ babaa breham jaanath thae brehamaa || BABBA: One who knows God is a Brahmin. ਬੈਸਨੋ ਤੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੁਚ ਧਰਮਾ ॥ baisano thae guramukh such dhharamaa || A Vaishnaav is one who, as Gurmukh, lives the righteous life of Dharma. ਬੀਰਾ ਆਪਨ ਬੁਰਾ ਮਿਟਾਵੈ ॥ beeraa aapan buraa mittaavai || One who eradicates his own evil is a brave warrior; ਤਾਹੂ ਬੁਰਾ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਨਹੀ ਆਵੈ ॥ thaahoo buraa nikatt nehee aavai || no evil even approaches him. ਬਾਧਿਓ ਆਪਨ ਹਉ ਹਉ ਬੰਧਾ ॥ baadhhiou aapan ho ho bandhhaa || Man is bound by the chains of his own egotism, selfishness and conceit. ਦੋਸੁ ਦੇਤ ਆਗਹ ਕਉ ਅੰਧਾ ॥ dhos dhaeth aageh ko andhhaa || The spiritually blind place the blame on others. ~SGGS Ji ang 258 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarjasDevi Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 "Matheen has made a good point. Harjas Kaur's points are basically common points of all religions and this was proven by Bahadur who tried his level best in showing how Gurmat is a part of Islam. And might I add, Bahadur made some excellent points, he would reply to everysingle post point by point even though he was fighting a losing battle. Harjas Kaur has chosen to ignore the Dasam Granth Tukhs given by Matheen Jee which are in opposition to her Sanatan views. We are still eagerly waiting for her reply to those Dasam Granth Tukhs. Please do not pick and choose to what you want to reply to." I only joined this forum last night. There are like 18 different replies all demanding an immediate answer and then badgering if they don't get one. That is poor sportsmanship. I already wrote that I do not accept uncritically the Dasm Granth presented to us by the SGPC because there is a history of manipulations and distortions and deletions of controversial texts. Also, I have not eatedn all day and will take leave of this forum to go do that now. I'm sorry you can't get answers to every demanding question in one day. There is one of me and several of you. Neither have I challenged or badgered or treated any of you in a hostile way. But I'm accustomed to the Sikh persecutions, badgering and banning game. Looks like this is just more of the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Also, I have not eatedn all day and will take leave of this forum to go do that now. But I'm accustomed to the Sikh persecutions, badgering and banning game. Looks like this is just more of the same. Relax Bhenji, nobody is 'badgering' you - he just noticed that you had answered later posts and missed the one i posted earlier. Hope you don't spend all day engrossed in ultimately pointless on-line arguments! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarjasDevi Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Posted Today, 01:26 PM harjas kaur touts here that sikhism is part of santan hinudism. santan hinduism considers shudras as inhuman. per them 40 percent of Hindu population i.e. shudras is not worth being called a human being. This is writeen in manu smrities.You should be ashamed of for equating a religion to khasla panth especially when that religion ordains inhuman practices. God is not pleased by such cruel practices. So all so called religious ideas are of zero value if you do not believe in and practice equality among human beings. It is against principles of modern world. remove these pathetic conditions , change/ abandon your religious texts before claiming to be God oriented religion. and above all remove kaur from your name as it is an insult to khalsa. I see degrading personal attacks are tolerated on this forum. How dare you judge me on the basis of Manu Smritis which are a British manipulated racist diatribe and do not represent the Sanatana Dharma, nor are they authoritative. You invent an ugliness you demand untruthfully is representing Hindu religion and then you trample people's reputations falsely who do not have any believe or faith whatsoever in such slanderous lies. Why do nindya? Do you think it makes you look good as a Khalsa? You misrepresent, lie and demonize Hindu Dharma and true teaching and then make personal attacks based on deliberate lies and misrepresentation. Have you no honor as a Singh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) I only joined this forum last night. It says you joined in August '08. Koi nahi, parshada chhakla.... Edited October 24, 2009 by Matheen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 I only joined this forum last night. There are like 18 different replies all demanding an immediate answer and then badgering if they don't get one. That is poor sportsmanship. I already wrote that I do not accept uncritically the Dasm Granth presented to us by the SGPC because there is a history of manipulations and distortions and deletions of controversial texts. Also, I have not eatedn all day and will take leave of this forum to go do that now. I'm sorry you can't get answers to every demanding question in one day. There is one of me and several of you. Neither have I challenged or badgered or treated any of you in a hostile way. But I'm accustomed to the Sikh persecutions, badgering and banning game. Looks like this is just more of the same. Bhainjee, I don't have negative feelings for you even though I strongly disagree with your views. You are more than welcome on this forum. You are my sister, and If my writing seemed rude or offensive in any way to you, then accept my apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarjasDevi Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 "I only joined this forum last night. It says you joined in August '08. And first post was last night. Are you trying to be annoying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhooliya Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 I didn't go through the whole 9 pages of discussion but please download and listen to OSHO's lecture on Gita. It will give alternative deep meanings as per his understanding. http://www.oshoworld.com/discourses/audio_hindi.asp?cat=G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Another quick question: are the the concepts of Shabad Guru and "Bani Guru, Guru Hai Bani" i.e. the Guruship being bestowed to a Granth, found in sanatan dharm? Also, what does mukti mean for a sanatan? (keep it short and to the point please). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 (edited) EDIT:ORIGINAL GURMUKHI REMOVED DUE TO POSSIBLE INACCURACY, POINT STILL STANDS HOWEVER In the whole world will roar the Khalsa Panth. Dharma will flourish and all else ‘Dund’ (Hindu and Islam) will disappear. AKAAAAAAAAAALLL Edited October 24, 2009 by Silence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted October 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 are you sure the above quotation is right? im preety sure the word turak is also mentioned after hindu in that line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 I got it from searchsikhism site, apologies if its wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts