Gurmat and the Gita

[chatanga1]

You simply can't erase Krishna from Gurbani.

i dont think anyone wants to do that. we simply wish to see Krishna in the context that Gurus put him in.

[singh2]

I see degrading personal attacks are tolerated on this forum. How dare you judge me on the basis of Manu Smritis which are a British manipulated racist diatribe and do not represent the Sanatana Dharma, nor are they authoritative.

You invent an ugliness you demand untruthfully is representing Hindu religion and then you trample people's reputations falsely who do not have any believe or faith whatsoever in such slanderous lies.

Why do nindya? Do you think it makes you look good as a Khalsa?

You misrepresent, lie and demonize Hindu Dharma and true teaching and then make personal attacks based on deliberate lies and misrepresentation.

Have you no honor as a Singh?

manu smrities are the foundation of casteism in Hinduism and very much part of snatan dhrama. Do not blame british for that.

I have no intention to malign any religion. It is you who is maligning my religion by stating

as below

I already wrote that I do not accept uncritically the Dasm Granth presented to us by the SGPC because there is a history of manipulations and distortions and deletions of controversial texts.

You are making our scripture suspect by making above statement. That is against the guidelines of this forum.You can carry out your malice on a Hindu forum but should not indulge in malicious propaganda on a sikh forum.A few months ago you were an avid supporter of Dasam Granth sahib and now it has become a suspect scripture for you. I can see the fervour of a new convert.

[HarjasDevi]

manu smrities are the foundation of casteism in Hinduism and very much part of snatan dhrama. Do not blame british for that.

Manu Smritis have no operative authority in Vaishnav or Shaiva or Shakta sampradayas. Live with it. Moreover the text has been adulterated and distorted by the British and does not reflect true teaching of Varna system. Modern caste system is neither Vedic nor part of Sanatana Dharma. When presented with the truth, why not reflect and study further? Wherever there is a disagreement, Smritis are also inferior to Shruti/Vedas. Vedas teach the gunas of a person are reflected in their mentality, not in their birth. A Shudra can become a Brahmin. This is also taught in Gurbani.

Or is there some secondary gain in promoting falsehood for propaganda purposes? Painting something in the very worst, exaggerated light is called SLANDER.

Why are you slandering the truth about Hindu religion? You slander your own Gurbani as well since Gurbani is teaching a Vedic concept and correction of the corruptions of Hindustani society. So were the Vaishnav sampradayas. That's why Vaishnav bhagats from low caste who are SAINTS according to VAISHNAV MAT as well as SIKHISM have those exact teachings having become part of Gurbani.

[singh2]

All i know is that manu smrities are part and parcel of ancient Hindu religion. Hindu society follows it all over India in letter and spirit. The proof of its existence are occurrences of atrocities on untouchables all over India on regular basis.many low caste leave Hinduism because of this tyrannical set up of hindu society

Sikh gurus condemned and denounced the caste system. They took practical steps to eradicate social devisions within society by forming Institutions of langar. guru Gobind singh created khalsa and made all to drink from same bowl thus imparting a mortal blow to evils of acste system.

In view of above It is sinful to say that sikhism is a branch of Hinduism.

[HarjasDevi]

What do you call this? Jats did this, not Hindus.

All i know is that manu smrities are part and parcel of ancient Hindu religion. Hindu society follows it all over India in letter and spirit. The proof of its existence are occurrences of atrocities on untouchables all over India on regular basis.many low caste leave Hinduism because of this tyrannical set up of hindu society

Sikh gurus condemned and denounced the caste system. They took practical steps to eradicate social devisions within society by forming Institutions of langar. guru Gobind singh created khalsa and made all to drink from same bowl thus imparting a mortal blow to evils of acste system.

In view of above It is sinful to say that sikhism is a branch of Hinduism.

Denunciation of corruptions of the caste system and the establishment of langar halls, the acceptance of women, outcastes and even Muslims were reforms initiated by the Vaishnavs. Guru Nanak Dev Ji folowed in that tradition as well as incorporated the teachings from Vaishnav bhagat bani.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not end the caste system with Khande Ki Pahul, moreover the castes of the original panj are remembered and celebrated for their unity into a brotherhood. Vaishnav and Shaiva acharyas were military Orders in the pattern of the Rajputs, admitting all castes into membership long before Guru Gobind Singh Ji was even born. What is sinful is to remain ignorant of true history preferring to believe only in propagandistic distortions and fabrications.

Lots of low caste communities are leaving Sikhism for the exact same corruptions you try and blame entire Hindu society for. Whats that about? Maybe the truth is human beings fall far short of authentic spiritual principles. So why blame religion for that? Manu Smritis were given authority by the British which they never had. The British Raj did more to damage the social structure of India then any other force. Yet people continue to praise the British and blame Hinduism for every evil thing they can imagine.

The British are the true authors of the modern race-based caste system and tyrannical set-up of modern Hindu society. And before them, you can thank the Mughal Raj for the exact same thing. Indian society and culture has been through hundreds of years of oppression and degradation which result in massive corruptions and flourishing of evil. Varna is determined by temperament and refers to one's livelihood, not birth or genetics or race. And that is teaching of the Vedas. Guru Nanak Panth tried to uplift the original Vedic ideal and so preserve Dharma.

[Matheen]

Varna is determined by temperament and refers to one's livelihood, not birth or genetics or race....

Tell it to the Hindus, seems they missed that point.

You still haven't responded to the Gurbani and simple qusetions posted earlier.

Hinduism is a colonial construct, covering hundreds of individual, often contradictory religions. All you are doing is using the words Sanatan Dharm to do the same. What proof do you have that the British promoted the Manu Smritis? All records show that they abhorred its teachings. If oppression of 'low' castes and women was not a problem in the pre-British era, Gurbani wouldn't be condemning these, would it? You can't get more Sanatan than the alleged writings of Brahma's son.

[singh2]

Tell it to the Hindus, seems they missed that point.

You still haven't responded to the Gurbani and simple qusetions posted earlier.

Hinduism is a colonial construct, covering hundreds of individual, often contradictory religions. All you are doing is using the words Sanatan Dharm to do the same. What proof do you have that the British promoted the Manu Smritis? All records show that they abhorred its teachings. If oppression of 'low' castes and women was not a problem in the pre-British era, Gurbani wouldn't be condemning these, would it? You can't get more Sanatan than the alleged writings of Brahma's son.

We hardly need to go anywhere to verify the existence of manu smriti. The proof is there in structure of Hindu society itself about this tyrannical division of humanity.

[HarjasDevi]

I already wrote that I do not accept uncritically the Dasm Granth presented to us by the SGPC because there is a history of manipulations and distortions and deletions of controversial texts.

You are making our scripture suspect by making above statement. That is against the guidelines of this forum.You can carry out your malice on a Hindu forum but should not indulge in malicious propaganda on a sikh forum.A few months ago you were an avid supporter of Dasam Granth sahib and now it has become a suspect scripture for you. I can see the fervour of a new convert.

Entire Khalsa Panth is embroiled in a debate on this subject and Dasm Granth does not have full Panthic acceptance as being bani of Tenth Master.

I personally believe that it is bani. I simply do not trust the SGPC edition which is bandied before the public. For one thing independant scholars are not allowed to access the original birs and pothis relied on for it's construction. Second the 32 birs seem to have gone missing. While I do not disbelieve in Shri Dasm Granth, I simply don't believe it hasn't been altered by SGPC and Singh Sabha scholars over the preceding decades before it was presented to the public.

[Matheen]

Entire Khalsa Panth is embroiled in a debate on this subject and Dasm Granth does not have full Panthic acceptance as being bani of Tenth Master.

The panth accepts Dasam Bani. The Akaal Takhat released a sandesh supporting this. 3/5 of the Amrit Sanchar Banis are Dasam Bani so how can there be any question? Your statement indicates that your main source of information is the internet, where the small group of anti-Dasam Granth moorakhs make it appear that this is a panth-wide issue.

I simply do not trust the SGPC edition which is bandied before the public. For one thing independant scholars are not allowed to access the original birs and pothis relied on for it's construction. Second the 32 birs seem to have gone missing. While I do not disbelieve in Shri Dasm Granth, I simply don't believe it hasn't been altered by SGPC and Singh Sabha scholars over the preceding decades before it was presented to the public.

The oldest birs, by Bhai Mani Singh Ji and comtemporaries are fully accessible to the public. There are old Singhs who have the entire Granth memorised. You can also check Gurudwaras that are out of the SGPC's control like Patna Sahib and Hazur Sahib, where Sri Dasam Granth is parkash.

Some banis are not in all birs, but only a few. The SGPC has not altered anything, and they did not present it to the public - it has always been parkash at certain places. Sri Dasam Granth has been in existance for over 300 years.

[amardeep]

Manu simriti in Dasam Granth

http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=496&english=t&id=83572

[singh2]

Some banis are not in all birs, but only a few. The SGPC has not altered anything, and they did not present it to the public - it has always been parkash at certain places. Sri Dasam Granth has been in existance for over 300 years.

Those banis are very few and mainly those that were taken out by Sodhak committee in 1897.

Dasam granth bir was always there in existence. There were two birs Anandpuri bir

and patna bir during Guru ji's time itself.

Third bir was by Bhai mani singh ji. There is no alteration involved.

lack of knowledge by Harjas kaur on dasam granth does not make it a suspect scripture.

[HarjasDevi]

amardeep

Posted Yesterday, 07:30 AM

Manu simriti in Dasam Granth

Sri Dasam Granth

This is very interesting Ji, thank you for sharing. This shows Dasam Granth is not condemning Manu Smritis but actually recognizing them. So we have to re-evaluate what elements of Manu Smritis are later interpolations and distortions of the original text, as what is modernly presented is NOT what is being praised in the bani. That which is condemnable and contrary to Shruti cannot possibly be Dharmic truth, neither would it be described as emanating from the Lord through Vishnu avatar to restore Dharma.

ਸਾਧ ਅਸਾਧ ਸਭੈ ਹੁਐ ਗਏ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਸਭ ਹੂੰ ਤਜਿ ਦਏ ॥

साध असाध सभै हुऐ गए ॥ धरम करम सभ हूं तजि दए ॥

The saints became devoid of saintliness and all abandoned the action of Dharma;

ਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਆਗਯਾ ਤਬ ਦੀਨੀ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਚੰਦ ਸੋਈ ਬਿਧਿ ਕੀਨੀ ॥੨॥

काल पुरख आगया तब दीनी ॥ बिसन चंद सोई बिधि कीनी ॥२॥

Then the Immanent Lord ordered Vishnu, who did as commanded.2.

ਮਨੁ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਰਾਜਵਤਾਰ ਅਵਤਰਾ ॥ ਮਨੁ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਚੁਰ ਜਗਿ ਕਰਾ ॥

मनु ह्वै राजवतार अवतरा ॥ मनु सिम्रितहि प्रचुर जगि करा ॥

Vishnu manifested himself as king Manu and propagated Manu Smriti in the world.

ਸਕਲ ਕੁਪੰਥੀ ਪੰਥਿ ਚਲਾਏ ॥ ਪਾਪ ਕਰਮ ਤੇ ਲੋਗ ਹਟਾਏ ॥੩॥

सकल कुपंथी पंथि चलाए ॥ पाप करम ते लोग हटाए ॥३॥

He brought all the corrupt persons on the right path and caused the people to become devoid of sinful actions.3.

ਰਾਜ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਭਯੋ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸ੍ਰਜੇ ਧਰਮ ਕੇ ਸਾਜਾ ॥

राज अवतार भयो मनु राजा ॥ सभ ही स्रजे धरम के साजा ॥

Vishnu incarnated himself as the king Manu and established all the actions of Dharma.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 496

Those banis are very few and mainly those that were taken out by Sodhak committee in 1897.

Dasam granth bir was always there in existence. There were two birs Anandpuri bir

and patna bir during Guru ji's time itself.

Third bir was by Bhai mani singh ji. There is no alteration involved.

lack of knowledge by Harjas kaur on dasam granth does not make it a suspect scripture.

It's completely controversial within the Panth as at least half of the Panth does not recognize it as bani regardless of what authorization is given it by SGPC and Akal Takhat. Moreover you cannot prove NO adulteration was involved as Singh Sabha is KNOWN for adulteration, and deletions, and distortions of texts.

Orgnizers of Singh Sabha Movement replaced the tradition of Five Weapons with that Of Five religion symbols(known as Five Ks)” is not Based on any Sikh or western Source.

There were 32 Dasam Granths circulating in the Amritsar’ area by 1890. The presently published Dasam Granth (1902) was created by the Sodhak Committee formed of British Cronies (1895-1897) to give a closer to the Granth floated by them in the late 18th century with the help of Nirmalas at Patna. The manuscript of this granth was implanted in the East India Library by Colebrook & Charles Wilkins and used by John Malcom in 1810, in his book “Sketch of the Sikhs”. Devnagri Dasam Granth (Presently in British Library, London) was written in February 1847 after the Sikhs lost the first Anglo-Sikh War (Second treaty with Lahore December 16, 1846 at Bhairowal when Britishers became virtual masters of Punjab). Treacherous Sardar Tej Singh was the chief of the regency council when this Devnagri Dasam Granth was created. In recognition of his services, the title of Raja was conferred on him on August 7, 1847. Story of Mani Singh compiling a Dasam Granth between 1721 to 1738 during his stay at Amritsar at the request of Mata Sundri is difficult to prove by evidence as the Dasam Granth reported to be compiled by him was found only in 1818 and the first part of this manuscript is a Bano Version of Guru Granth Sahib which makes it very unlikely to be the composition compiled by Mani Singh who compiled the Damdami version earlier.

The story of Mehtab Singh and Sukha Singh slaying Massa Ranghar and reward of successful mission keeping the various parts of Dasam Granth as a single volume cannot be supported by any historical evidence. Babadeep Singh is said to have compiled another manuscript of Dasam Granth in 1747 A.D. as reported by Giani Singh which ends at Asfotak Kabit. Only Sangrur Bir as studied by Padam & Jaggi Is reported to end with final title Asfotak Kabit .Therefore, probably it is the same Manuscript as reported by Giani Gian Singh . The first portion of This Manuscript is Guru Granth Sahib & 2nd portion is Dasam granth. This Manuscript Contains additional compositions Like Sansahar Sukhmana, Vaar Malkauns and Chakka Bhagoti Which Were edited & deleted by Sodhak Committee in 1897, therefore cannot make this manuscript authentic. By history Babadeep Singh bir/Sangrur bir appeared in 1857 only. The author has reviewed the history and text of Dasam Granth from 18th to 20th century and the summary of the findings is as follows:

* Historical analysis shows that 10th master may have made many Granths noted in the literature e.g. Smudsagar / Avtarlila / Vidyasagar Granth/Vidyadar Granth / Bachitar Natak /Satsai Granth. But no original Granth is available as they were lost in river and warfare.

* Bhai Mani Singh is reported to compile Dasam Granth between 1721-1738 at request of Mata Sundri but no original available. Photgrphs as published by Dr. Padam In His 3rd Edition reported to be in possession of Mata sundry Has no Histry of 18th&19th century.

* Controversy of Dasam Granth Authenticity started in 18th century and still continues

* By the end of 19th century (1895), 32 birs of Dasam Granth were in circle in Amritsar which were used by Sodhak Committee to finalize the final version of Dasam Patshahi GURU Granth Sahib sahib JI.

* . Lahore Singh Sabha With 118 associations DID NOT Recognize This new Dasam Pathshai Guru Granth Sahib in 1897. 3 articles published in Khalsa Akhbar Lahore against this committee on october 4th,25th&november 1st 1895.

* 1897 - Above bir has no significance among the Sikhs as not mentioned by Akali Ran Singh, 1905 in his book about Dasam Granth

* Kahan Singh Nabha in 1930 in Mahan Kosh does not mention 1897 sodhak Committee report or dasam granth published in 1902 based on this report. He talks about only two birs of Mani Singh & Sukha Singh Bir& requests more thorough work on this issue.

* Dharam Pal Ashta 1959 Based his Thesis On Sodhak committee Report of 1897 without confirming Authenticity of Dasam Granth Manusripts he used in his study.

* Historical analysis shows that no bir of Dasam Granth was seen in Punjab or New Delhi area ia 18th century, only Charles Wilkins in 1781 sees some second Granth in Patna which he reported appeared later and also reported that Guru Granth Sahib was the only sanctified and promulgated.

* Historical records show, Banda Singh, Nawab Kapur Singh, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, and Sikh Misals of the 18th century do not revere Dasam Granth. Baghel Singh built 8 hitorical Gurudwaras in New Delhi in 1784 and no evidence of Dasam Granth installed anywhere.

* Textual analysis of all known birs of Dasam Granth show variations of titles in Tatkara, variation of titles at start of composition and variation of contents. History of no DG birs goes before 1818.

* No original Khas patra available. Letter of Mani Singh is spurious

* Historical inconsistencies in Bachitar Natak. There are various scribes of Dasam Granth. Difficult to discuss orthography as no original is available.

* Ideological inconsistencies and ideological variations

* Heterogeneous Granth of different collections compiled by Sukha Singh and promoted by the British

* Dating inconsistencies. Wrong chronology, 7 compositions excluded in 1897 published Text

* Bachitar Natak, a manipulative collection with no mention of martyrdom of 5th Guru. Reverence of Adi Granth compiled in 1604 and as spiritual guru to the Sikhs since then. No mention of creation of Khalsa and Amrit ceremony.

* Malcom’s sketch of the Sikhs created a distorted Sikhism to diminish the spirit of the Sikhs and their government as proposed by William Franklin in 1803 in his account.Dasam Granth

How can you deny the well documented historical controversies and history of suppression, banning, deletions, missing birs, failure to permit external, unbiased, independant analysis of the preparation and sources for final version presented to the Khalsa Panth? Just like Manu Smritis which may originally have been from God, after modern adulterations it can no longer be trusted as reliable without further analysis. Particularly when neferious and questionable political machinations have altered, prepared and translated it.

At issue in particular:*

"Missing 16th pauri describing demolishing, temples, mosques, and tombs by 10th guru. (anti-Hindu & anti-Muslim missing in this translation but has been cited by Malcolm) p. 189-202

...Many stories in the translation distort Sikh History when you read the details. I will write the detail of these accounts in future because the subject is very important. (Excerpt from p. 33) Textual Analysis History and Academic Issues of DG

Who can establish with certainly what political ideology has been grafted into the "final version" of the Granth? Especially suspect is the political position of Singh Sabha:

Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha: The Reform and alteration of purataan Sanatan Sikhism

"In response to these developments, Sikhs initiated the Singh Sabha movement, which sought to revive Sikh doctrine in its pristine purity. The first unit, formed in Amritsar in 1873, was followed by a more radical branch in Lahore that, among other things, stressed that Sikhs were not Hindus...

Building on the early 18th-century understanding of Singh identity as the accepted Sikh ideal, Singh Sabha leaders undertook a major effort to make Sikhs aware of what they saw as correct doctrine and practice, using the newly arrived print culture to propagate Sikh history and literature...

They worked closely with the British administration, convincing them of the importance of treating the Sikhs as a distinct political community." Singh Sabha

Singh Sabha as a political movement came into being with help of the British to distinguish the identity of Sikhs as entirely separate from Hindus. This "anti-Hindu" position is responsible for the interpretations of bani as "rejecting Hindu Mat."

You think it is coincidence that they ban sanatan Granths and undermine them while promoting suspect and adulterated interpretations which reflect their anti-Hindu Singh Sabha ideal?

Who can say they worship and adore SAT who are filled with political propaganda to reject historical validity of Sanatan Sikh heritage which is what predated the Singh Sabha?

Sanatan Singh Sabha the one BEFORE Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha:

The basic belief of Sanatan Sikhism is inclusively, i.e., religious diversity is natural and Sikhism can be composed of a variety of different forms and practices, since boundaries are inherently fluid. The point of contention (with Tat Khalsa Sikhism) is that these practices are often inseparable from the practices evident in the Hindu and Muslim traditions. Another point of departure is when Sanatan Sikhs see Sikhism as an offshoot of Hinduism. This is offensive and misguided in the Tat Khalsa's point of view. Thus Sanatan doctrines are deeply embedded in the Hindu scriptures such as the Vedas, Puranas, Shastras, popular poetic epics, myths and legends, aswell as in the practices of idol worship, worship of tombs, temples and other sacred sites. There are also some Sufi, yogic and ascetic practices too. A key point of contention is the Hindu doctrine of the avataras (divine incarnations) where God is believed to incarnate in different forms at times when righteousness is about to be overcome by the forces of darkness.

Sanatan Sikhs would include the Udasis and Nirmalas and believe that the Amritdhari, Keshdhari and Sahajdhari are all Sikhs. Sanatan Sikhs also hold the Adi Granth and the Dasam Granth in equal esteem.

The first Singh Sabha was founded at Amritsar in 1873. It was essentially conservative and Sanatan ('eternal', almost synonymous with Hinduism)...

This caused a public uproar. The Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs all interpreted these colonial times as a threat to their traditions and started reformist movements. The Sikhs thus inaugurated the Singh Sabha to recover a distinctive Sikhism. With the advent of the print media the task of discovering, defining (and to some extent creating) "real" Sikhism was worked out in print, journals and tracts, religious assemblies, preaching and public discussion. This movement rapidly expanded and Sabhas were being formed all over the Panjab. However the main other Singh Sabha was founded in Lahore, and was more progressive and radical, and which eventually formed the essential traits of the Tat Khalsa orthodoxy. The Sanatan Sikhs (Udasis, Nirmalas and the Namdharis) were for the first time challenged and eventually marginalised.

Bhai Mani Singh (1673-1738) was a devout follower of Guru Gobind Singh who is traditionally thought to have wrote down the Adi Granth as Gobind Singh dictated it to him. He also believed to have collected Guru Gobind's work to form the Dasam Granth. The Dasam Granth has been understood as reflecting the Sanatan Sikh's world-view and the Adi Granth the Tat Khalsa's since the Dasam Granth contains many of the Hindu myths and goddesses, and incarnations of Siva, Vishnu and the Goddess. Sanatan Singh Sabha

Edited October 27, 2009 by HarjasKaur

[HarjasDevi]

We hardly need to go anywhere to verify the existence of manu smriti. The proof is there in structure of Hindu society itself about this tyrannical division of humanity.

Respecting that there have been corruptions and alterations of the text; can you explain why Shri Dasm Granth bani is claiming Manu Smriti as coming from the God to save the Dharma and put mankind on proper spiritual path?

Because neferious forces have politically altered the scripture. And it is as I said previously, not the correct representation of Vedanta. So stop falsely bashing the same as which Guru Gobind Singh Ji has declared of God, and that is Sanatana Dharama from which all these scriptures originate. But recognize, in the many famous debates, Sruti/ that which comes directly from the Vedas is the most correct and any secondary scripture which contradicts it is in error.

Tyrannical division of humanity occurs in every human society throughout human history and cannot be naively blamed on "Manu Smritis." because it reflects the duality divisions of human consciousness and the evil tendancies of mankinds panj bhutas. It is NOT the Divine intent. It is human weakness and corruption.

[Matheen]

Respecting that there have been corruptions and alterations of the text; can you explain why Shri Dasm Granth bani is claiming Manu Smriti as coming from the God to save the Dharma and put mankind on proper spiritual path?

You have to put it in context. That passage is a tranlsation from another granth (surprised you don't recognise it) and Guru Ji's views are made clear later on in the Bani.

Do you study religion out of love of God and to learn how to become one with Waheguru or purely academically?

Edited October 27, 2009 by Matheen

[Matheen]

ਸੋਰਠ ॥

सोरठ ॥

SORATH

ਤਾਸ ਕਿਉ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਹੀ ਜੋ ਹੋਹਿ ਹੈ ਅਬ ਹੈ ॥ ਨਿਹਫਲ ਕਾਹੇ ਭਜਤ ਪਾਹਨ ਤੋਹਿ ਕਛੁ ਫਲਿ ਦੈ ॥

तास किउ न पछानही जो होहि है अब है ॥ निहफल काहे भजत पाहन तोहि कछु फलि दै ॥

Why do you not pray to Him, who will be there in future and who is there in the present? You are worshipping the stones uselessly; what will you gain by that worship?

ਤਾਸ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਜਾਸ ਸੇਵਤਿ ਹੋਹਿ ਪੂਰਣ ਕਾਮ ॥ ਹੋਹਿ ਮਨਸਾ ਸਕਲ ਪੂਰਣ ਲੈਤ ਜਾ ਕੋ ਨਾਮ ॥੧੧॥੮੫॥

तास सेवहु जास सेवति होहि पूरण काम ॥ होहि मनसा सकल पूरण लैत जा को नाम ॥११॥८५॥

Only worship Him who will fulfil your wishes; mediate on that Name, which will fulfil your wishes.11.85.

ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਯੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਕਹੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਨੈ ਅਵਤਾਰਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਜੀਅ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੨॥

काहूं ने राम कहयो क्रिशना कहु काहूं मनै अवतारन मानयो ॥ फोकट धरम बिसार सभै करतार ही कउ करता जीअ जानयो ॥१२॥

Someone calls him Ram or Krishna and someone believes in His incarnations, but my mind has forsaken all useless actions and has accepted only the One Creator.12.

ਕਾਹੇ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਮਹੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਭਾਖਤ ਕਾਹਿ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਹੈ ਨ ਰਘ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਜਦ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਰਮਾਪਤਿ ਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੌ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਨਾਥ ਪਛਾਨਯੋ ॥

काहे को एश महेशहि भाखत काहि दिजेश को एस बखानयो ॥ है न रघ्वेश जद्वेश रमापति तै जिन कौ बिस्वनाथ पछानयो ॥

Why do you consider Shiva or Brahma as the Lord ? There is none amongst Ram, Krishna and Vishnu, who may be considered as the Lord of the Universe by you;

ਏਕ ਕੋ ਛਾਡਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਜੈ ਸੁਕਦੇਵ ਪਰਾਸਰ ਬਯਾਸ ਝੁਠਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਸਜੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੌ ਬਿਧ ਨੈਕ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੫॥

एक को छाडि अनेक भजै सुकदेव परासर बयास झुठानयो ॥ फोकट धरम सजे सभ ही हम एक ही कौ बिध नैक प्रमानयो ॥१५॥

Relinquishing the One Lord, you remember many gods and goddesses; in this way you prove Shukdev, Prashar etc. as liars; all the so-called religions are hollow; I only accept the One Lord as the Providence.15.

ਕੋਊ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਬਤੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਕਹੈ ਬਿਸ਼ਨੋ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਇਕ ਜਾਹਿ ਭਜੇ ਅਘ ਓਘ ਕਟੈ ਹੈ ॥

कोऊ दिजेश को मानत है अरु कोऊ महेश को एश बतै है ॥ कोऊ कहै बिशनो बिशनाइक जाहि भजे अघ ओघ कटै है ॥

Someone tells Brahma as the Lord-God and someone tells the same thing about Shiva; someone considers Vishnu as the hero of the universe and says that only on remembering him, all the sins will be destroyed;

ਬਾਰ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਅਰੇ ਜੜ ਅੰਤ ਸਮੈ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਤਜਿ ਜੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਿ ਹੀਏ ਜੋਊ ਥੇ ਅਬ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਆਗੈ ਊ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥

बार हज़ार बिचार अरे जड़ अंत समै सभ ही तजि जै है ॥ ताही को धयान प्रमानि हीए जोऊ थे अब है अरु आगै ऊ ह्वै है ॥१६॥

O fool ! think about it a thousand times, all of them will leave you at the time of death, therefore, you should only meditate on Him, who is there in the present and who will also be there in future.16.

[singh2]

Dasam Granth sahib on vedas, puranas, smirites and demigods

ਆਦਿ ਅਭੇਖ ਅਛੇਦ ਸਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬਨਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਦੀਨ ਦਯਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨਿਧਿ ਸੱਤਿ ਸਦੈਵ ਸਭੈ ਘਟ ਛਾਯੋ ॥

आदि अभेख अछेद सदा प्रभ बेद कतेबनि भेदु न पायो ॥ दीन दयाल क्रिपाल क्रिपानिधि स्ति सदैव सभै घट छायो ॥

Thou art the Primal, Guiseless, Invincible and Eternal Lord; the Vedas and the Semitic holy texts could not know Thy Mystery; O protector of the lowly, O compassionate and Treasure of Mercy Lord ! Thou art Ever Truth and Pervader in all;

ਸ਼ੇਸ਼ ਸੁਰੇਸ਼ ਗਣੇਸ਼ ਮਹੇਸੁਰ ਗਾਹਿ ਫਿਰੈ ਸ੍ਰੁਤਿ ਥਾਹ ਨ ਆਯੋ ॥ ਰੇ ਮਨ ਮੂੜ ਅਗੂੜ ਇਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੈ ਕਿਹ ਕਾਜਿ ਕਹੋ ਬਿਸਰਾਯੋ ॥੪॥

शेश सुरेश गणेश महेसुर गाहि फिरै स्रुति थाह न आयो ॥ रे मन मूड़ अगूड़ इसो प्रभ तै किह काजि कहो बिसरायो ॥४॥

Sheshnaga, Indra, Gandesha, Shiva and also the Shrutis (Vedas) could not know Thy Mystery; O my foolish mind ! why have you forgotten such a Lord?4.

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਦੁਹੂੰ ਮਿਲ ਭਾਤਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ ॥ ਔਰ ਜਹਾਨ ਨਿਦਾਨ ਕਛੂ ਨਹਿ ਏ ਸੁਬਹਾਨ ਤੁਹੀ ਸਿਰਦਾਰਾ ॥੬॥

बेद पुरान कुरान दुहूं मिल भाति अनेक बिचार बिचारा ॥ और जहान निदान कछू नहि ए सुबहान तुही सिरदारा ॥६॥

The Vesas, Quran, Puranas together have mentioned many thoughts about you; but O Lord ! there is none else like Thee in the whole universe; thou art the supremely Chaste Lord of this universe.6.

ਦੇਵ ਅਦੇਵ ਮਣੀ ਧਰ ਨਾਰਦ ਸਾਰਦ ਸੱਤਿ ਸਦੈਵ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਦੀਨ ਦਯਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨਿਧਿ ਕੋ ਕਛੁ ਭੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੭॥

देव अदेव मणी धर नारद सारद स्ति सदैव पछाना ॥ दीन दयाल क्रिपानिधि को कछु भेद पुरान कुरान न जाना ॥७॥

The gods, demons, Nagas, Narada and Sharda have been ever thinking of Thee as Truth-incarnate; O protector of the lowly and the Treasure of Grace ! Thy mystery could not be comprehended by the Quran and the Puranas.7.

ਦੇਵ ਅਦੇਵ ਮਹੀਧਰ ਨਾਗਨ ਸਿੱਧ ਪ੍ਰਸਿੱਧ ਬਡੋ ਤਪੁ ਕੀਨੋ ॥ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਸਭੈ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਇ ਥਕੇ ਪੋ ਤੋ ਜਾਇ ਨ ਚੀਨੋ ॥

देव अदेव महीधर नागन सि्ध प्रसि्ध बडो तपु कीनो ॥ बेद पुरान कुरान सभै गुन गाइ थके पो तो जाइ न चीनो ॥

The god, demons, mountains, Nagas and adepts practised sever austerities; the Vedas, the Puranas and the Quran, al were tired of singing His Praises, even then they could not recognize His mystery;

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਨ ਭੇਦ ਲਹਯੋ ਤਿਹਿ ਸਿੱਧ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਿ ਹਾਰੇ ॥ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸ਼ਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਸਭੈ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥

बेद कतेब न भेद लहयो तिहि सि्ध समाधि सभै करि हारे ॥ सिम्रित शासत्र बेद सभै बहु भांति पुरान बिचार बीचारे ॥

The Vedas and Ketebs could not comprehend His Mystery and the adepts have been defeated in practising contemplation; various thought have been mentioned about God in Vedas, Shastras, Puranas and smrities;

ਕਾਹੇ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਮਹੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਭਾਖਤ ਕਾਹਿ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਹੈ ਨ ਰਘ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਜਦ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਰਮਾਪਤਿ ਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੌ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਨਾਥ ਪਛਾਨਯੋ ॥

काहे को एश महेशहि भाखत काहि दिजेश को एस बखानयो ॥ है न रघ्वेश जद्वेश रमापति तै जिन कौ बिस्वनाथ पछानयो ॥

Why do you consider Shiva or Brahma as the Lord ? There is none amongst Ram, Krishna and Vishnu, who may be considered as the Lord of the Universe by you;

ਏਕ ਕੋ ਛਾਡਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਜੈ ਸੁਕਦੇਵ ਪਰਾਸਰ ਬਯਾਸ ਝੁਠਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਸਜੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੌ ਬਿਧ ਨੈਕ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੫॥

एक को छाडि अनेक भजै सुकदेव परासर बयास झुठानयो ॥ फोकट धरम सजे सभ ही हम एक ही कौ बिध नैक प्रमानयो ॥१५॥

Relinquishing the One Lord, you remember many gods and goddesses; in this way you prove Shukdev, Prashar etc. as liars; all the so-called religions are hollow; I only accept the One Lord as the Providence.15.

ਕੋਟਕ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਕਰੇ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਉਪਿੰਦ੍ਰ ਬਾਨਇ ਖਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਦਾਨਵ ਦੇਵ ਫਨਿੰਦ੍ਰ ਧਰਾਧਰ ਪੱਛ ਪਸੂ ਨਹਿ ਜਾਤਿ ਗਨਾਯੋ ॥

कोटक इंद्र करे जिह को कई कोटि उपिंद्र बानइ खपायो ॥ दानव देव फनिंद्र धराधर प्छ पसू नहि जाति गनायो ॥

He, who created crores of Indras and Upendras and then destroyed them; He, who created innumerable gods, demons, Sheshnaga, tortoises, birds, animals etc.,

ਆਜ ਲਗੇ ਤਪੁ ਸਾਧਤ ਹੈ ਸ਼ਿਵ ਊ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਕਛੁ ਪਾਰ ਨ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਨ ਭੇਦ ਲਖਯੋ ਜਿਹ ਸੋਊ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਮੋਹਿ ਬਤਾਯੋ ॥੧੭॥

आज लगे तपु साधत है शिव ऊ ब्रहमा कछु पार न पायो ॥ बेद कतेब न भेद लखयो जिह सोऊ गुरू गुर मोहि बतायो ॥१७॥

And for knowing whose Mystery, Shiva and Brahma are performing austerities even till today, but could not know His end; He is such a Guru, whose Mystery could not be comprehended also by Vedas and Katebs and my Guru has told me the same thing.17.

I may go on as every composition of Dasam granth sahib puts these figures in their proper place.

Edited October 27, 2009 by singh2

[HarjasDevi]

The translations of the Shri Dasm Granth are so controversial and so questionable it comes down to sectarianism. I could also quote from translations from Gobindsadan which would utterly refute these Tat Khalsa translations, but I refrain.

I refrain because I respect the bani while acknowledging the controversy in translation. There were 32 original birs at the time the Singh Sabha together with British funding set about translation. They are now missing. Which bir and why did Singh Sabha choose to translate? Did it parallel with other translations? Were the Punjabi translations even correct with the orignial Braj Bhasha which Dasm Granth was written in?

the fact that competing translations exist and what the Panth is given is a neat little package with stamp of seal of approval by SGPC Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha scholars reflects an anti-Hindu bias from the outset.

With respect tsingh on Sikhsangat has written:

"I ASK THE SANGAT TO PLEASE REFRAIN FROM GOING TO gobindsadan.org & dasamgranth.org. these websites are run by government institutions which intend to derail and hurt Sikhi, internally. Changing our Bani. So please do not go to these sites. The best way to get translations on Sri Dasam Granth is to get teekay or steeks from the Damdami Taksal or ones that have been verified by Sri Akal Takhat Sahib. Dont trust anything else. thank you."

Dasm Granth

Now, these are typical accusations of the Tat Khalsas. Neferious Hindu agents are running around Sikh history putting Sanatan Hidu Dharma into the writings. But that's not true at all. The purataan writings all reflect sanatan ideology and far predate the political existance of Arya Samaj or Singh Sabha.

Likewise it's the belief of sanatani's that Tat Khalsas have distorted the bani in their attempt to purge it of Hindu influence. I will dare say this includes the reason for marginalizing and banning things like Prem Sumarag and Gur Bilas.

So everything you have quoted from Shri Dasm Granth cannot at this time be proven to actually be Shri Dasm Granth bani, and any sanatani will question it's translation and out of context political message of anti-Hinduism.

Gurbani in Shri Guru Granth Sahib says that Krishan Ji is a Yuga avatar and that Guru Nanak Dev Ji is the avatar for Kali Yuga. If a translation is saying otherwise, it is contradicting Guru bani. Gurbani says that the One Lord is all pervading the Devatay. If a translation of Shri Dasm Granth says otherwise, it is contradicting Guru bani.

Edited October 28, 2009 by HarjasKaur

[singh2]

Number of beers does not mean that they had different contents. All beers had almost identical contents.Report of sodhak committee testify to that.

Above translation is from Gobind sadan site. It is dasam granth in which avtarvaad and idol worship is rejected in all compositions. British or tat khalsa theory does not hold any ground.

[HarjasDevi]

Above translation is from Gobind sadan site.

No Ji, entire direct quotations you have posted link directly to this site Sridasam.Org connected with Punjabonline, which is NOT Udasi Gobindsadan, Siri Dasam Granth 5 volumes. Gobindsadan site only has translation into Punjabi and you can only download them not cut and paste to posts because they are pdf files.

This website, SriDasam.Org, features the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib in English, Punjabi, and Hindi. The site also provides a search engine for these scriptures.

The Sri Dasam Granth is attributed to have been written by Guru Gobind Singh (1666-1708). However, there is great debate over various portions of the scriptures. This website takes no position on the debate. There is no doubt that the authenticity of the Dasam Granth is highly questionable, but what remains a fact is that the Dasam Granth exists, and this website provides it for your reference and curiousity. Please read the disclaimer for more details.

This project was a collaboration of hard work by various individuals. Here we acknowledge all of these people.

Credits

Project initiative, coding and web-site: Jasjeet Singh Thind

Monetary contributions for typing of text by: Jasjeet Singh Thind, Kulbir S. Thind, Khushdev K. Thind and Deepinder Singh

Current corrections of text by: Bibi Amarjit Kaur of Belgium.

Text of two chapters provided by: Bhai Baljinder Singh of Rarasahib.

Initial corrections, formatting, conversion to Unicode Gurmukhi and conversion to Unicode Hindi by: Kulbir Singh Thind

Please send feedback to punjabonline@yahoo.com.

It is dasam granth in which avtarvaad and idol worship is rejected in all compositions. British or tat khalsa theory does not hold any ground.

ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥

achuth

paarabreham paramaesur

antharajaamee ||

The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥

madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||

He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥

rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||

The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥

mohan maadhhav

kirasa

muraarae ||

The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥

jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||

The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥

jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||

The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥

dhharaneedhhar ees

narasingh naaraaein

||

The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥

dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||

The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥

baavan roop

keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||

O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥

sree raamachandh jis roop

n raekhiaa ||

You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥

banavaalee

chakrapaan

dharas anoopiaa ||

Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥

sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||

You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥

bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||

You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥

gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||

The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥

baasudhaev niranjan

dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||

O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥

mukandh manohar

lakhamee naaraaein

||

Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥

dhropathee

lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||

Savior of Dropadi's honor.

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥

kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||

Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥

amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||

The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥

akaal moorath

jis kadhae naahee kho ||

His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥

abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||

O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥

sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||

The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥

mashh kashh

kooram aagiaa

aoutharaasee

||

By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

~SGGS Ji ang 1082

If Gurbani rejects avtaarvaad, why does Gurbani say the Parabrahm who is Ajooni also took incarnation as the Das Avtaaras? And is this complexity not explained by niragun-saragun?

Edited October 28, 2009 by HarjasKaur

[HarjasDevi]

The Contents of the Dasam Granth are:

*

1. Jaap (meditation)

2. Akal Ustat (praises of God)

3. Bachitar Natak ( autobiography of the Guru)

4. Chandi Charitar I & II (the character of goddess Chandi)

5. Chandi di Var (a ballad to describe goddess Durga)

6. Gian Prabodh (the awakening of knowledge)

7. Chaubis Avtar (24 incarnations of Vishnu)

8. Brahm Avtar (incarnation of Brahma)

9. Rudar Avtar (incarnation of Shiv)

10. Shabad Hazare (ten shabads)

11. Swayyae (33 stanzas)

12. Khalsa Mehma (the praises of the Khalsa)

13. Shastar Nam Mala ( a list of weapons)

14. Triya Charitar (the character of women)

15. Zafarnama (epistle of victory, a letter written to Emperor Aurangzeb)

16. Hikayats. (stories) Dasam Granth

The contents of Shri Dasm Granth bani boggle the mind if Sikh Guru and "religion" totally rejected as false. I mean, if you don't even believe in devi or avtaras, why in the world compile entire Granth discussing something you don't even believe in, totally reject, and in even praising godly and martial qualities while copying from Puraanas? Rejection means you don't accept. It doesn't mean you incorporate Shakta Purana into Gurbani.

The Dasam Granth contains 1428 pages and is the collection of the writings of the 10th Patshah, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. It contains his Jaap Sahib, the Akal Ustat or praise of the Creator, the Vachitar Natak or Wonderful Drama, in which the Guru gives an account of his parentage, his divine mission, and the battles in which he had been engaged.

Then come three abridged translations of the Devi Mahatamya, an episode in the Markandeya Puran, in praise of Durga the Goddess of war (Chandi Chritras: Chandi Chritra I, Chandi Chritra II, Chandi Ki Var). Then follows the Gyan Parbodh, or awakening of knowledge; Chobis Avatar - accounts of twenty-four incarnations of the Vishnu, according to the Hindus, and Brahrnavatar and Rudravtdr, selected because of their warlike character; Dasam Granth

The Tat Khalsa scholars can't reconcile their OWN rejection of Hindu heritage with the sanataan heritage of Gurbani and are jumping through incredibly controlled and staged hoops in order to prove it. Even the Christians have open scholarship where various sects and individuals can independently evaluate translations and original documents. By hiding things from the public they don't protect the Granth, they make it suspect and unreliable. By only presenting ONE VERSION and ONE TRANSLATION they create controversy. By only designating as "Panthic" those scholars trained and approved by them, they don't make the controversies about the bani go away. They have not even explained publicly why 32 birs have gone missing and are no longer even available, but translation now relies on only 3.

The fact remains, Shri Dasm Granth includes a translation of the Devi Mahatmyam in praise of Durga-Kali the KAL, Sarabloh Shakti the SWORD, the Pritam Bagwati.

No translation can ever change that. What in the world is that Shakta bani even doing in the Granth of Dasm Pita Ji? Which tells the story of the Mahishasura Mardini. And why can't we honestly and historically explore the sanatan history which is violently suppressed that Dasm Pitaji was a devotee of the same Chandi whose name became the capitol, Chandigarh? Whose Adi Chand rests on the foreheads of Akali Nihangs? Whose mount became the surname of the Sikhs? And whose footprints are all over sanatan Sikh heritage.

Detail from Solykoff's lithograph of Maharaja Sher Singh, with Battle Standard showing Lord Muruga Skanda Kartikeya, son of Shiva and Battle Commander of the Devas."

"The fifth aspect of the Mother Durga is known as ‘Skanda Mata’ - the mother of Skanda or Lord Kartikeya, who was chosen by gods as their commander in chief in the war against the demons. She is worshipped on the fifth day of Navaratri. She is accompanied by the Lord Skanda in his infant form." Durga and Skanda Kartikeya

Skanda Kartikeya rides a peacock.

Lord Muruga Skanda Kartikeya: Battle Commander in Chief of the Devas, being venerated.

Lord Muruga Skanda Kartikeya, the son of Lord Rudra/Shiva carries a teer and rides a peacock. His name symbolises Mu (from Vishnu Mukunda) Ru (From Rudra) and Ga/Ka (from Kamalan/Brahma) and hence symbolizes within Himself all the powers of the Divine. If Tat Khalsa Sikhs want to eliminate sanatan Sikh heritage, they will have to eliminate Maharaj Ranjit Singh and entire period of Sikh Kingdom. How could the detail of this symbolism, this "Hindu Mat" be so intertwined with sanatan Sikh history if it were not real?

Sikh Battle Standards captured by the British during the Anglo Sikh Wars. Kept at Lichfield Cathedral (Staffordshire UK)

The cathedral houses the battle standards and memorials of the Staffordshire Regiment. It has a dedicated monument to the Anglo - Sikh Wars, Sikh Battle Standards captured during the Battle of Ferozepur on 21st December 1845 are displayed here.

The inscriptions on this monument read:

‘The Sikh colours on this memorial were taken by H.M.’s 80th Regiment at the Battles of Ferozeshah and Sobraon. The capture of the Black Standard at Ferozeshah cost the lives of some of those commemorated.’ Sikh Battle Standards

The Devi Mahatmyam or Devi Mahatmya (Sanskrit: devīmāhātmyam, देवीमाहात्म्यम्), or "Glory of the Goddess") is a Hindu text describing the victory of the goddess Durga over the demon Mahishasura. As part of the Markandeya Purana, it is one of the Puranas or secondary Hindu scriptures, and was composed in Sanskrit around c. 400-500 CE, with authorship attributed to the sage Markandeya (Rishi).

Devi Mahatmyam is also known as the Durgā Saptashatī (ढुर्गासप्तशती) or simply Saptashatī, Caṇḍī (चण्डी) or Caṇḍī Pāṭha (चण्डीपाठः) - where pāṭha – "reading" – refers to the act of ritual reading. The text contains 700 (saptashata - "seven hundred") verses, arranged into 13 chapters. By far the most important text of Shaktism[1], the text has a central place in Shakta ritual. Devi Mahatmyam

Why are sanatan devatas on Sikh Battle standards if Sikhs have not been Sanatanis?

Why is Devi Mahatmyam in praise of Durga as Mahishasura Mardini in Sri Dasam Granth?

Edited October 28, 2009 by HarjasKaur

[singh2]

If Gurbani rejects avtaarvaad, why does Gurbani say the Parabrahm who is Ajooni also took incarnation as the Das Avtaaras? And is this complexity not explained by niragun-saragun?

Do not quote Gurbani out of context. The essence of shabad is given by Guru sahib as below

kirtam naam kathay tayray jihbaa.

With my tongue I chant the Names given to You.

sat naam tayraa paraa poorbalaa.

'Sat Naam' is Your perfect, primal Name.

ang 1083

[Matheen]

Bhenji, are you saying you don't understand the language used and rely solely on translations?

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

Skanda Kartikkeya and Shakta doctrines are only clothings of certain principles. In different cultures these clothings were different but they embodied the same principles. Ares, Mars have paralells with Skanda and in Shia literature Fatima the daughter of the prophet is venerated and elevated to a 'Shakti' concept. These underlying principles or forces that influence Human beings is what is important, not the different clothes they wear. Although the clothes are important so that we can understand the principle through the 'clothes' because the principles are invisible. People who get obsessed with the mere 'clothes' are the real troublemakers. Why did Guru Gobind Singh have a standard of Kartikkeya what influences was he attracting by this standard. This is what we should ask. All this neo-hinduism 'Sanatana' stuff is the bastardized conception of the united Indian State that needed a 'religion' to go along with its new independance. So people like Vivekananda cooked up a nice masala mix and called it 'Sanantana Dharma'. But you cant say such things because its againstthe dogma of the eternal Sanatana Dharma

[shaheediyan]

Well said.

[chatanga1]

You slander your own Gurbani as well since Gurbani is teaching a Vedic concept and correction of the corruptions of Hindustani society.

No, we dont slander anything, as we beleive Gurbani to be above vedic concepts. It is also the corrections of all societies, not just hindustani societies. after all Guru Nanak did travel way out of India to bring the Word. If Guru Ji were just here to correct hindu corruptions would he have done this do you think?

actually you havent answered my question form a few days ago, so i wont hold out for an answer here.

Om Namah Shiva.