chatanga1 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 If Gurbani rejects avtaarvaad, why does Gurbani say the Parabrahm who is Ajooni also took incarnation as the Das Avtaaras? And is this complexity not explained by niragun-saragun? why does gurbani say this about the Tre-Dev? Aasaa, 4 Ik-Tukay: No one is more powerful than the she-serpent Maya, who deceived even Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. ||1|| Having bitten and struck them down, she now sits in the immaculate waters. By Guru's Grace, I have seen her, who has bitten the three worlds. ||1||Pause||O Siblings of Destiny, why is she called a she-serpent? One who realizes the True Lord, devours the she-serpent. ||2|| No one else is more frivolous than this she-serpent. When the she-serpent is overcome, what can the Messengers of the King of Death do? ||3|| This she-serpent is created by Him. What power or weakness does she have by herself? ||4|| If she abides with the mortal, then his soul abides in his body. By Guru's Grace, Kabeer has easily crossed over. ||5||6||19|| doesnt it tell us the tredev were... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSD1 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Detail from Solykoff's lithograph of Maharaja Sher Singh, with Battle Standard showing Lord Muruga Skanda Kartikeya, son of Shiva and Battle Commander of the Devas." Alright little miss smarty pants, answer me this: Can you name some British ships that took part in the Battle of Trafalgar? Here are a few: HMS NEPTUNE, HMS ORION, HMS MINOTAUR, HMS BELLERPHON, HMS POLYPHEMUS, HMS NAIAD or HMS SIRIUS. Hang on a minute. What the hell are british christians using pagan gods, creatures, nymphs, heroes and mythical super-dogs to name their ships of the line? Surely this must mean that the english are secretly greek/roman pagans? Actually maybe I have it all wrong. It was actually the greek and roman pagans who were the ones doing all the fighting for Britain at Trafalgar!! Of course that must be it. History is so much clearer when I look at it using your logic. Haha. How could the detail of this symbolism, this "Hindu Mat" be so intertwined with sanatan Sikh history if it were not real? Yes, yes, just like roman/greek gods raping giants or a woman sleeping with a bull and producing minotaurs etc etc. Why are sanatan devatas on Sikh Battle standards if Sikhs have not been Sanatanis? Hahahahahahah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 This debate has taken many turns, point by point. Can i please ask harjas kaur to state, what exactly she is trying to prove?. So we can open new thread based on those points with strict guidelines of moderation of staying on the topic and discuss them one by one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarjasDevi Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 ਇਹ ਸ੍ਰਪਨੀ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੋਈ ॥ eih srapanee tha kee keethee hoee || This she-serpent is created by Him. ਬਲੁ ਅਬਲੁ ਕਿਆ ਇਸ ਤੇ ਹੋਈ ॥੪॥ bal abal kia eis thae hoee ||4|| What power or weakness does she have by herself? ||4|| ~Aasaa Bhagat Kabir Shabad:2313 Page 719 of Amrit Keertan Gutka ਇਕੁ ਕਵਾਉ ਪਸਾਉ ਨ ਅਲਖੁ ਲਖਾਇਆ । iku kavaau pasaau n alakhu|akhaaiaa| The imperceptible Lord who has created all through His single vibration cannot be perceived. ਕਾਦਰੁ ਨੋ ਕੁਰਬਾਣੁ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਮਾਇਆ । kaadaru no kurabaanu kudarati maaiaa| I am sacrifice unto that creator, whose maya is this creation. ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪੁ ਗੁਰਿ ਸਮਝਾਇਆ ॥੩॥ aapay jaanai aapu guri samajhaaiaa ॥3॥ The Guru has made me understand that God alone knows about His own self (none else can know Him). ~Vaar 22 Pauri 3 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji Also, ਆਪੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਆਪੇ ਛਾਇਆ ॥ Āpe mā▫i▫ā āpe cẖẖā▫i▫ā. He Himself is Maya, and He Himself is the Illusion. ਆਪੇ ਮੋਹੁ ਸਭੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ Āpe moh sabẖ jagaṯ upā▫i▫ā. He Himself has generated emotional attachment throughout the entire universe. ਆਪੇ ਗੁਣਦਾਤਾ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਆਪੇ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੫॥ Āpe guṇḏāṯā guṇ gāvai āpe ākẖ suṇāvṇi▫ā. ||5|| He Himself is the Giver of Virtue; He Himself sings the Lord's Glorious Praises. He chants them and causes them to be heard. ||5|| ਆਪੇ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਏ ਆਪੇ ॥ Āpe kare karā▫e āpe. He Himself acts, and causes others to act. ਆਪੇ ਥਾਪਿ ਉਥਾਪੇ ਆਪੇ ॥ Āpe thāp uthāpe āpe. He Himself establishes and disestablishes. ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਰੈ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥ Ŧujẖ ṯe bāhar kacẖẖū na hovai ṯūʼn āpe kārai lāvaṇi▫ā. ||6|| Without You, nothing can be done. You Yourself have engaged all in their tasks. ||6|| ਆਪੇ ਮਾਰੇ ਆਪਿ ਜੀਵਾਏ ॥ Āpe māre āp jīvā▫e. He Himself kills, and He Himself revives. ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥ Āpe mele mel milā▫e. He Himself unites us, and unites us in Union with Himself. ~SGGS Ji ang 125 And also, ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਖੇਲੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਾਲਿਆ । trai gun maaiaa khaylu kari daykhaaliaa| The Lord has produced this world as the play of the three dimensional maya. ਖਾਣੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਚਾਰਿ ਚਲਤੁ ਉਠਾਲਿਆ । khaanee baanee chaari chalatu utdaaliaa| He has accomplished the feat of (the creation of) four life mines (egg, foetus, sweat, vegetation) and four speeches (pars, pasyanti, madhyama and vaikhar). ਪੰਜਿ ਤਤ ਉਤਪਤਿ ਬੰਧਿ ਬਹਾਲਿਆ । panji tat utapati bandhi bahaaliaa| Creating from the five elements he bound them all in a divine law. ਛਿਅ ਰੁਤਿ ਬਾਰਹ ਮਾਹ ਸਿਰਜਿ ਸਮ੍ਹਾਲਿਆ । chhia ruti baarah maah siraji samhaaliaa| He created and sustained the six seasons and the twelve months. ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਸੂਰਜ ਚੰਦੁ ਦੀਵੇ ਬਾਲਿਆ । ahinisi sooraj chandu deevay baaliaa| For day and night He lit the sun and the moon as lamps. ਇਕੁ ਕਵਾਉ ਪਸਾਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲਿਆ ॥੧੭॥ iku kavaau pasaau nadari nihaaliaa ॥17॥ With one vibrational throb he expanded the whole creation and delighted it through his graceful glance. ~Vaar 21 Pauri 17 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarjasDevi Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 This debate has taken many turns, point by point. Can i please ask harjas kaur to state, what exactly she is trying to prove?. So we can open new thread based on those points with strict guidelines of moderation of staying on the topic and discuss them one by one. I am trying to answer their twisting and turning questions which they specifically direct to me when I post a response on the thread topic. I have opinions as does anyone. But sanatan opinions which promote relationship and harmony between the ideology of Gurmat and Sanatan Dharma is met with huge hostility and resistance. My opinion regarding the Gita and Gurmat is they are one and the same based on pauris within Shri Guru Granth Sahib that claim Krishna as a Yuga Avatar and Satguru for Dwapara Yuga. So Gita is Gurbani for an earlier time. Everything else has been a dance around sharks who deny sanatan heritage and history of Sikhism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 We are not denying anything. We just put into context what Hinduism is in relation to Gurmat as any other religion. We are NOT Sanatanis. In fact even the term Sanatan Dharm to define Hinduism came into usage when the British came to India. Sikhs have never been a part of Hindu Dharm and never will be. As Qazi Noor Mohammad who lived during the Misl period writes: "If you are not acquainted with their religion, I tell you that the Sikhs are the disciples of the Guru - that glorious Guru lived at Chak (Amritsar). The ways and manners of these people were laid down by Nanak who showed these Sikhs a separate path. He was succeeded by Guru Gobind Singh from whom they received the title of Singh. They are not part of the Hindus, who have a separate religion of their own.” You can try all you want to distort and twist history but Sikhs will always remain a distinct people and sooner or later we will once again have our own Raaj. You say you are a supporter of Dasam Granth, but when Dasam Granth bani is quoted here which go against your Sanatanist views you then have the audacity to claim that Dasam Granth bani has been changed by the British in order to seperate Sikhs from Hindus. We want proof for this claim(lie). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSD1 Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 My opinion regarding the Gita and Gurmat is they are one So Gita is Gurbani for an earlier time. If sikhs today have no link to their sikh ancestors, how does the Gita act as a Gurbani for an earlier time? If so, why bother with the Gita? Surely Gurbani is all you need then. Everything else has been a dance around sharks who deny sanatan heritage and history of Sikhism. Denying? More like proving it to be completely and utterly wrong. Maybe you should go on an english forum and try to convince them they are all roman/greek classical pagans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) If sikhs today have no link to their sikh ancestors, how does the Gita act as a Gurbani for an earlier time? If so, why bother with the Gita? Surely Gurbani is all you need then. You're right about not bothering with the gita. we only need gurbani. If we didnt Guru would have said. Gita is from times gone by. If we need the Gita in Kalyug, then would we have needed Guru Nanak, or could we have just kept Sri Krishan Bhagwaan from the previous yug? Edited October 29, 2009 by chatanga1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 This thread is been closed since it has taken many turns and lot of stuff has been off-topics. Both parties please pm me questions for proper discussion, I will create a moderated topic where posts gets manually approved by sevadars, in that thread. Harjas kaur will given an opportunity first to provide questions/claims not because she is on trial but lady first. I think senstive topic like this were emotions are high, moderated topic will be the best. That way we can enforce no personal attacks are over-looked and there are no off-topics. PM me if both parties are interested...!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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