The Bhatts (or Bhatrai Sikhs)

[Niranjana]

Shaheediyan:

"The reference to XYZ giving amrit to so many is not actually refering to the absence of the Panj Pyare etc it is refering to the Baba's parchaar/smaagam. Unfortunately some overly fanatical chelai like to keep records and and promote the numbers of people saved to date...."

Yes, indeed, but as you say it's a feather in XYZ Baba's turban, so to speak, to quote long lists of 'saved souls' yet the simple statement made on the Batra website (which clearly refers to the same underlying message that Baba Mehtab Singh Bance's sermons inspired several members of the sangat to take Amrit, then it is suddenly questioned!).

btw, nice pic of the late Bhai Avtar Singh.

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[ipledgeblue]

Yeah tell me about it. Thank God we got you, LondonDaJatt. brruuaaaa.

here's a potato....organic....balley

Commonly a Jatt is a farmer back in the good old Panjab, belonging to the Hindu shudar varna.

But I guess you will correct me, please do..

What is a Jatt? Where did they come from?..etc..the usual enlightening stuff.

well jatts are assoicated with farming the most, but they are more of an ethnic group where not all jatts are farmers or kisaans. You can also see Bhai Gurdass ji has described jatts and kisaans separately.

But you also get non-jatt farmers, such as khatri/rajput/tarkhan/saini/lobana farmers. Example of khatri farmer would be Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Becoming farmer doesn't make someone a jatt, only specific clans belong to jatt tribe.

[ipledgeblue]

What is a bhatra Sikh, what does one have to do to be a Bhatra Sikh?, be born into a Bhatra family? Same goes for Rajpot Sikh, Jatt SIkh, Tarkhan Sikh..etc.

blimey, so many different classes of Sikhs!

well is it importnat for oneself to call him/herself sikh at all?

[shaheediyan]

LDJ,

Please describe the 'ethnic' difference between say a Jatt and Tarkaan, one pair who live in UK Punjabi ravaaj and one pair who are both living amritdhari jeevans.

Ta.

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[ipledgeblue]

well yes i am, its not totally important, but if they live in such a way, then nothing wrong with it.

What I don#t understand why its wrong to say one belongs to or comes from a group. Seems like political red tape to me.

I mean its not like sikhs don't describe people as belonging to a group, inclduing themselves, so i don't see why it should only be applied to certain groups that people want to, eg certain types of castes? To be honest, I see it as political correctness gone mad.

What if we didn't describe the mughals as mughals, or the khalsa fauj as the khalsa, or the afgahn invaders as afghans, i could just go and on?

What kinda history would that be, would be describe A just as a set of people, and B as also just a set of people?

Should society not promote us to become individuals, all different, instead of all this stuff where everyone is exactly the same like some kind of zombie? So whats wrong with grouping together a set of individuals?

If we wanted to follow Guru Ji then why don;t we follow this then?

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕੋਊ ਰਾਫਜੀ ਇਮਾਮ ਸਾਫੀ ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਬੋ ॥

हिंदू तुरक कोऊ राफजी इमाम साफी मानस की जाति सबै एकै पहिचानबो ॥

Someone is Hindu and someone a Muslim, then someone is Shia, and someone a Sunni, but all the human beings, as a species, are recognized as one and the same.

But then how many of us call people hindu and muslim, but then get in a big fuss cos someone used a "caste" lol

I also see a lot of people taking this bani out of context and just taking the ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਬੋ ॥ "maanas kee jaat sabai eko pahecchanbo" part out of the line so they can just use it against what they consider caste instead of the context Guru Ji used it for.

[ipledgeblue]

LDJ,

Please describe the 'ethnic' difference between say a Jatt and Tarkaan, one pair who live in UK Punjabi ravaaj and one pair who are both living amritdhari jeevans.

Ta.

well there will definetly be differences in what clans they belong to. Theres also genetic differences created from jatts marrying into jatt clans and tarkhans marrying into tarkhan clans and so on...

I especially see differences to kenyan tarkhans, but then agin kenyan jatts are also different to india jatts. Habits, culture, traditions, maryada and rules will still be carried over fomr back home. For example, how often will you see a jatt follow Vishwakarma compared to a tarkhan? Then you also see the pugh differences, and I have even noticed beard differences.

Well about amritdhari jeevans, regardless of being amritdhari, if one is living in jatt family and relatives then one will have to follow jatt maryada and culture in their environment and similarly for tarkhan environment will follow tarkhan things, when you live in family and civilised environment you have to follow the laws of the family and of the land and government, its not like they have gone to the dal and living with nihang singhs, which of course is different.

[shaheediyan]

"Genetic differences"

Please describe these.

"Jatt Maryada"

Please describe this.

[ipledgeblue]

genetics, you know, if you keep marryin within certain people. for example, gora marryin gora stays gora. english marryin englosh remains english.

So jatt marrying jatti is gonnahave children that are more jatt like in behaviour etc

maryada, rules and regulations of families, parents etc. Best way to check this to actually go and live ina cultural/traditional family, or at least chat to someone. Best way is thorugh experience

[shaheediyan]

I understand what the term Genetic means. I am asking yuo state the genetic differences of Jatts as opposed to other 'castes'. Please enlighten us.

Re the Jatt Maryada, could you please give examples of this also, you seem an expert on the subject, so I am sure this won't pose a problem for you.

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[ipledgeblue]

I understand what the term Genetic means. I am asking yuo state the genetic differences of Jatts as opposed to other 'castes'. Please enlighten us.

Re the Jatt Maryada, could you please give examples of this also, you seem an expert on the subject, so I am sure this won't pose a problem for you.

Well about genectis, I am sure if you keep marryin people with similar traits you offsrping also gain genes from the parents.

For example have you ever seen a child have similar features to his/her parents/grandparents or even other relatives? Don;t need to experiment on this cos its pretty obvious.

well about jatt maryada, i am not enough of an expert as say someone from the pind would be. Best way to know how jatt behaves is to actually go and see a traditional jatt, especially in the pind. All I can say is we take great pride in maintaining annakh and izzat. We are also open hearted. But theres differences in punjabis even from location, nevermind caste; such as doaba, malwa and majha.

[ipledgeblue]

How often will you see a Tarkhan follow Shiva or a Devi i.e. kali maa compared to a Jatt?......

People who follow idols and blind, people who divide God are fools.

I like this...

"Regardless of being amritdhari, if one is living in a jatt family and relatives, then one will have to follow Jatt maryada".

What about Khalsa Maryada? Where does this fit in?

What is the point in being "amritdhari" when you don't change your lifestyle to suit your Guru rather than your family and relatives?

Family is different to that of the land and government. You cannot put the two together. Your logic defies belief. Please use better examples.

well khalsa rehit, well if someone wants to follow this full time they of course go live in the dals.

But if you want to live in family and civiliastion, then you have to follow the rules of the family and government, you have to go to work and school. If I wanted to just follow khalsa rehit and disregard otehr rules of course I would just go live in the dal, you know become a true ascetic khalsa fauji, why live with family then?

[ipledgeblue]

I am sorry, but this "logic" is illogical. lol.

I am surprised that you are even attempting answering the question in this way.

Genetical behavioural pattern, this theory has been refuted many times, by numerous studies.

Maryada, rules, regulations are not the same as Genetics.

You can say, "if a tall man marrys a tall woman, it is possible that their children will be tall aswell". This you can say is genetics.

But to put forward a theory that being a Jatt is in your genetic makeup, well we better watch out for Bill Gates' kids.

Remember MahaRaja Ranjit Singh, what happened to his kids? Where did genetics go?

lol. you are a funny man, please leave Science and stick to your potatoes. (boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew..potatoes...lol, sorry, couldn't resist)

Let me give you some advice. Best way to experiance Sikhi is though experiance.

hence the reason why I fully support and promote intercaste marriages, once everybody is mixed up, its one less problem to sort out in this world.

I hope that God blesses you with wisdom Mr Jatt.

......"white people who hate black people usually see their daughters marrying back men"..

well people are always going to make themselves into groups. Pretty sure sikhs have grouped themselves. Then people have group themselves into countries as well. So no matted how mixed people get people are always gonna group themselves for whatever reason, hey even football teams are groups, I see it illogical for groups not to exist. Andon top of that, I think humans should be diferent and expand as individuals, with their own strengths and advantages.

Well if not as jatts, you would at least be able to recognise Ranjit Singh's offsprings as apneh if nothing else, because I am pretty sure no-one is going to go and mistake them for africans or goray are they?

I am not against intercaste marriages, I think if people want to they should. But as far as I am concerned my Gurus only married into their caste or even varna, into kshatriyas only, so I do not see what is wrong with me marrying jattis? This is not going against my Guru, so its all good. I will tolerate intercaste marriage if you'll tolerate same-caste marrriage in return. Also I tolerate people not following caste but I wouldn't mind if they tolerated another person's views who happens to believe inb caste as well? Is this not a good sikh, one who respects another person's views, or do some people follow a different sort of sikhi where everyone else is wrong ?

[shaheediyan]

"Well about genectis, I am sure if you keep marryin people with similar traits you offsrping also gain genes from the parents.

For example have you ever seen a child have similar features to his/her parents/grandparents or even other relatives? Don;t need to experiment on this cos its pretty obvious.

well about jatt maryada, i am not enough of an expert as say someone from the pind would be. Best way to know how jatt behaves is to actually go and see a traditional jatt, especially in the pind. All I can say is we take great pride in maintaining annakh and izzat. We are also open hearted. But theres differences in punjabis even from location, nevermind caste; such as doaba, malwa and majha."

Tut tut... avoiding my simple and clear questions, what a shame, we could have had some fun and reeled out the Nazi in you.

Probably for the best Mantri Sahib.

"Well if not as jatts, you would at least be able to recognise Ranjit Singh's offsprings as apneh if nothing else, because I am pretty sure no-one is going to go and mistake them for africans or goray are they?"

Thats quite funny, I know Jatts who could easily be mistaken for Africans and Gorai! Regarding Dalip Singh, what a perfect example of the fairytale genetic theory - whatever happened to his Jatt maryada and Jatt genetics when he was living it up as thoroughbred genteel in Norfolk as Maharani Victorias favourite!! LOL.

[ipledgeblue]

"Tut tut... avoiding my simple and clear questions, what a shame, we could have had some fun and reeled out the Nazi in you. "

lol you wanna bring out a nazi in me eh, well keep on trying eh? because believe me, I don't believe in a one pure race theory, and instead in mulitculuralism hence being able to call myself jatt without worrying about not belonging to some politically correct "pure" race.

"Thats quite funny, I know Jatts who could easily be mistaken for Africans and Gorai! Regarding Dalip Singh, what a perfect example of the fairytale genetic theory - whatever happened to his Jatt maryada and Jatt genetics when he was living it up as thoroughbred genteel in Norfolk as Maharani Victorias favourite!! LOL." well you tell me what happened to it? And whats this about genteels, because i didn;t get the joke .

well u tell me when a jatt in the pind is gettin annoyed and gets his gandasa/kirpan/bandook out or tries to run a tractor over whether he is jatt or not lol. better stil i'd love some1 to go to the pind and say that to their face "u can't call yourself jatt cos blah blah and so and so..."

[Xylitol]

singh, there is no such thing as jatt maryada. Maryada refers to a code of conduct. The social norms that exist among jatts overlap to a huge extent with other caste groups, and are also different in some ways. These norms are taught socially (referred to as learning through 'nature') and not passed down genetically (nature).

Although some personality characteristics are passed genetically, research has proven that not only does nurture influence these characteristics, but that nurture provides the lions share of influence.

I have also read somewhere that Guru Gobind Singh ji gave a hukam to Sikhs to not even ask the caste of another Sikh. I do not recall the source of this hukam / rahit.

For a sikh, the only maryada that matters is the Guru's. If as a Sikh you wish to engage in following cultural practices there is nothing wrong with that, so long as it does not contradict Gurmat. But please do not refer to prevailing cultural practices as maryada, as it makes it almost impossible to have a reasonable discussion.

[Mithr]

I've said this before and saying it again. Without Sikhi, Punjabi Jats are NOTHING.

The Jatts in Pakistan whose ancestors were forced to accept Islam speak for themselves. The Hindu Jatts although have a proud history, but they get victimised by the Rajputs in Rajasthan.

Why is the Sikh Jatt so different? it's only because of Sikhi. Without Sikhi, we would have been nothing. Long ago before Sikhi, the Pathans would invade India and carry away our women and Jatt Anakh and Izzat didn't mean $hit to the Pathans. But Guru Gobind Singh Jee changed all that. We didn't get victimised by Pathans like the ancestors of Muslim Jatts, nor do we get victimised by the Rajputs like Hindu Jatts do. Now we have Annakh and Izzat, not because of our Jattness but because of our King, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee.

It really makes me laugh seeing Jatts feeling so proud of being Jatt. Being a Jatt doesn't stop a Pathan from victimising you. But being a Sikh of Guru Gobind Singh does.

We need to be proud firstly of being Sikhs of Dasam Patshah. All other things are secondary and worldly, and in the bigger picture of things seems very small.

[shaheediyan]

Nice post Mithr Ji.

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