sex

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

You and me seem to be viewing the subject matter, from two irreconcilable standpoints. Sikhi is a mystical path, the thought constructs you are imposing on Sikhi are not compatible. If a Sikh has not a certain level of morality he cannot access the Guru. To be able to read bani a certain amount of purity and inherent sensibilty of certain immutable laws, has to be present. Men may call themselves Sikhs, but a Sikh is only an individual who has a connection with his Guru.

I have tried to explain that Gurbani does explain the rules about married life. But these rules are not in an exoteric or manifest form. They are unmanifest in an archetypal form. The Guru provides a means to access these divine truths. I am not saying everyone can have access to these truths, similiarly not all will follow marriage rulings or certain rules may have been imbued with a persons own intellect instead of from the divine intellect. Gurbani cuts out the middle man and goes direct to Akaal.

[Mithr]

Mechane'ch Jannat Ji, I learn a lot from your posts. Thank you.

[Eternal Sunset]

You and me seem to be viewing the subject matter, from two irreconcilable standpoints. Sikhi is a mystical path, the thought constructs you are imposing on Sikhi are not compatible. If a Sikh has not a certain level of morality he cannot access the Guru. To be able to read bani a certain amount of purity and inherent sensibilty of certain immutable laws, has to be present. Men may call themselves Sikhs, but a Sikh is only an individual who has a connection with his Guru.

I have tried to explain that Gurbani does explain the rules about married life. But these rules are not in an exoteric or manifest form. They are unmanifest in an archetypal form. The Guru provides a means to access these divine truths. I am not saying everyone can have access to these truths, similiarly not all will follow marriage rulings or certain rules may have been imbued with a persons own intellect instead of from the divine intellect. Gurbani cuts out the middle man and goes direct to Akaal.

You say: "Sikhi is a mystical path, the thought constructs you are imposing on Sikhi are not compatible. "

Sorry Sikhi isn't just a mystical path. It is the union of miri and piri. It has a mystical and socio-political aspect. If Sikhi was just a mystical path then Tyag Mal would have remained Tyag Mal instead of becoming Guru Tegh Bahadur.

Then you say "If a Sikh has not a certain level of morality he cannot access the Guru. " Who defines that morality? You by accessing some hidden knowledge? or is it defined by the Guru?

"To be able to read bani a certain amount of purity and inherent sensibilty of certain immutable laws, has to be present."

I thought to read gurbani you had to learn the gurmukhi language first to get access to teachings and then work on your inner purity.

"But these rules are not in an exoteric or manifest form. They are unmanifest in an archetypal form"

So the Gurus came into Kaljug and that knowledge remained hidden? The Gurus came into this kaljug to enlighten the world like the sun so that divine knowledge should be manifest.

If basic rules about married life are hidden somewhere then where is the guidance? Are married couples supposed to meditate about wether or not they should have anal sex?

"I am not saying everyone can have access to these truths"

So the Gurus died as martyrs so that a lucky fey can have mystical access to the secret laws of anal sex?

"Gurbani cuts out the middle man and goes direct to Akaal"

If you can acess Akal directly what need is there for a Guru?What need is there for the shahidi of Guru Tegh Bahadur?

I am sorry but I am just one of those people who admit that they make mistakes and need guidance for everyday matters to be sure I am on the right path so that I can use the rest of my time meditating on God rather than "accessing the esoteric laws of anal sex"

[Matheen]

I don't see what the fuss is about.

It's clearly fordidden.

[Xylitol]

It's plain to see.

Javanmard, even Much of Sharia came about long after the prophet's passing.

[Eternal Sunset]

It's plain to see.

Javanmard, even Much of Sharia came about long after the prophet's passing.

Excuse me Veerjee but who is Jawanmard? Also we were discussing Sikhi I don't what this shairia has got to do with the matter at hand.

Muslims, Jews, Christians and Hindus all have laws and so does Sikhi.

Matheen you say that anal sex "is clearly forbidden" but is this your opinion or do you have a tuk from gurbani or the rahit to prove your point? If it is "clearly forbidden" as you say that means you have had clear instructions about this matter from gurbani, could you kindly provide the passage so as to inform us. A Gursikh takes his instruction from gubani and gurbani is the reference in both spiritual and temporal matters.Thank you.

[Matheen]

I asked Guru Ji and they told me.

Not everything has to in black and white, does it?

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

I am sorry but I am just one of those people who admit that they make mistakes and need guidance for everyday matters to be sure I am on the right path so that I can use the rest of my time meditating on God rather than "accessing the esoteric laws of anal sex"

Where do you wish to get guidance from? How are you guided to the correct source of guidance? How do you know you are making mistakes if you do not follow currently any guidance?

The answer to the last question is obviously an intrinsic morality inherent in humankind. It is this, the Guru's wished to blossom in men. This intrinsic morality is individual. This is why the miri and piri are essentially one or they are unified, mystical knowledge is the seed of socio-political rule. The light of mystical knowledge, ignites the fire of intrinsic morality. What I am saying to clarify for you is : a community based around a teaching of the source of all teaching, is sustained morally by a core of divine effulgence, which radiates outwards, sparking inherent morality in men as individuals. Now I in no way criticize a legalistic religious system such as the Sharia. First of all I have no knowledge of it, and secondly I believe it spreads good in normal peoples life, very much good in fact. But each to their own, If, and I think you would, prefer to be told when to p1ss sh1t and eat, and what hand to hold your thothi in, then follow a religious legalistic law, and be happy my dear brother, do not become despondent because you cannot find a rule my brother do not concern yourself with altruism it is a disease. Nobody wants the truth, keep your truth in a box, and when you feel sad open your box, and titillate yourself, knowing that you know the truth, you know the truth my brother.

[Mithr]

If, and I think you would, prefer to be told when to p1ss sh1t and eat, and what hand to hold your thothi in.

[Eternal Sunset]

Mekhanech Jannat wrote:

Where do you wish to get guidance from? How are you guided to the correct source of guidance? How do you know you are making mistakes if you do not follow currently any guidance?

The answer to the last question is obviously an intrinsic morality inherent in humankind. It is this, the Guru's wished to blossom in men. This intrinsic morality is individual. This is why the miri and piri are essentially one or they are unified, mystical knowledge is the seed of socio-political rule. The light of mystical knowledge, ignites the fire of intrinsic morality. What I am saying to clarify for you is : a community based around a teaching of the source of all teaching, is sustained morally by a core of divine effulgence, which radiates outwards, sparking inherent morality in men as individuals. Now I in no way criticize a legalistic religious system such as the Sharia. First of all I have no knowledge of it, and secondly I believe it spreads good in normal peoples life, very much good in fact. But each to their own, If, and I think you would, prefer to be told when to p1ss sh1t and eat, and what hand to hold your thothi in, then follow a religious legalistic law, and be happy my dear brother, do not become despondent because you cannot find a rule my brother do not concern yourself with altruism it is a disease. Nobody wants the truth, keep your truth in a box, and when you feel sad open your box, and titillate yourself, knowing that you know the truth, you know the truth my brother.

"Where do you wish to get guidance from? How are you guided to the correct source of guidance? How do you know you are making mistakes if you do not follow currently any guidance?"

- A Sikh receives guidance from his/her Guru. It is him that instructs him on all matters both spiritual and temporal, be through gurbani or his other writings

"The answer to the last question is obviously an intrinsic morality inherent in humankind. It is this, the Guru's wished to blossom in men. This intrinsic morality is individual. This is why the miri and piri are essentially one or they are unified, mystical knowledge is the seed of socio-political rule. The light of mystical knowledge, ignites the fire of intrinsic morality. "

- There is no instrinsic morality to humans. All great civilizations have received their moral codes from godly men who received them from God. Without that divine knowledge humans make up their own "morality" and as humans differ in culture, race and environmant that morality changes constantly and it is hence neither the same everywhere nor intrinsic.

- Mystical experiences can be of all kind and are individualistic and subjective in nature. Each person receives a different experience. A society is based on a COMMON LAW based NOT on subjective experience but in divine revelation. Your argument makes the Guru absolutely obsolete and unecessary.

"But each to their own, If, and I think you would, prefer to be told when to p1ss sh1t and eat, and what hand to hold your thothi in, then follow a religious legalistic law, and be happy my dear brother, do not become despondent because you cannot find a rule my brother do not concern yourself with altruism it is a disease."

- Mind your language! The language you use is extremely rude and undignified.

- Actually several rahitname do give clear instructions about personal hygiene. The Guru teaches ALL aspects of life. So yes you belong to a religion with a set of laws common to all Sikhs called rahit. Even Guru Gobind Singh obeyed this law when he paid a fine for showin reverence to the shrine of Dadu Sahib. If Guru Gobind Singh himself followed Sikh law who are you to think you don't need any?

- Altruism is a form of daya and daya is the mother of all virtues and is the basis of the Khalsa. You call it disease...strange

"Nobody wants the truth, keep your truth in a box, and when you feel sad open your box, and titillate yourself, knowing that you know the truth, you know the truth my brother."

- If you don't want the truth why follow the Guru Sahiban?

- I actually do want the Truth but if you are happy with lies...

"keep your truth in a box, and when you feel sad open your box, and titillate yourself, knowing that you know the truth, you know the truth "

Could you tell anything substantial that doesn't come from a Deepak Chopra book?

"you know the truth my brother"

- your brother? Excuse me!

Could anyone please post a passage from gurbani or the rahit concerning anal sex please or at least give me some direction on where I could that material? Thank you

[amardeep]

Gurbani and rehitnames talk about controlling your sexual urge and not giving into it in an extreme manner, so seen in the context of anal sex being a sexual luxury pleasure one could argue that it is not allowed. Some rehitnames only allow sex once a day because one should be able to control the sexual desires, instead of letting them control your behavior.

i dont know much about jewish and hindu law, but i know that anal sex is a controversial topic among islamic scholars, and some allow it whereas others forbid it... Seen in this case, the law is not divine as it contradicts itself since the scholars argue on this topic each having their own arguments for allowing/banning it

[Eternal Sunset]

Gurbani and rehitnames talk about controlling your sexual urge and not giving into it in an extreme manner, so seen in the context of anal sex being a sexual luxury pleasure one could argue that it is not allowed. Some rehitnames only allow sex once a day because one should be able to control the sexual desires, instead of letting them control your behavior.

Gurbani does indeed talk about controling kaam but this is an ethical injonction not a law. How does this get translated into law.

"Not giving into it in an extreée manner". Define extreme. Extreme could be anything depending on time, space and location, it is a matter of personal opinion and taste and is not objective and God given.

Hence your argument of defining anal sex as a "luxury" falls. Anal sex is not a luxury it is one sexual practise among many others. It is up to the Guru to define if it is allowed or not.

Some rehitnames only allow sex once a day because one should be able to control the sexual desires, instead of letting them control your behavior.

Sex once a day could is too general as it doesn't define the sexual practises.

"i dont know much about jewish and hindu law, but i know that anal sex is a controversial topic among islamic scholars, and some allow it whereas others forbid it... Seen in this case, the law is not divine as it contradicts itself since the scholars argue on this topic each having their own arguments for allowing/banning it"

I don't know about Jewish and Islamic law too much. But still I don't see how scholars contradicting each other make a religious law not divine. Look at the meat issue in Sikhi so many Panthik vidvaans say different things does that mean gurbani is false? I think that we should be very careful to make a difference between scripture and interpretation of scripture.

I have done some personal research and Guru Granth Sahib doesn't talk about anal sex. Maybe the writing of Guru Gobind Singh would have something about it. Anyone got any advise?

[amardeep]

Gurbani gives you generel and overall guidance whereas we have to implement these in our daily lives. Gurbani teaches me to be good, and I can use this goodness to help old ladies across the street.

It does not say anywhere that you are good if you A, B, C, D, E, F and G. It gives you some moral discipline and teaches you how to live,- so implement these moral codes and attributes in your life.

Gurbani over and over again warns us of falling into the pithell of kaam.

It does not say that sex is forbidden, but it tells you not to give into it. This gives you something to think about and work on . If i am a married man and i have sex with my wife, and i suddenly want to go a few steps further, then it becomes masala , it becomes add-ons and hereby its a luxury good. Anal sex is a luxury good as it is not the standard way of having sex, and the only reason for doing it must be for pleasure. Gurbani tells us not to give into pleasure,- and by doing anal sex you have given in as you were not satisfied with the standard way of having sex

[Matheen]

I have done some personal research and Guru Granth Sahib doesn't talk about anal sex. Maybe the writing of Guru Gobind Singh would have something about it. Anyone got any advise?

Hand on heart, you're saying you've read ALL of Guru Sahib?

Why the fixation on this issue?

[Xylitol]

Sikh dharm is about rising about the 3 ways of living in maya - Rajo, Tamo, Satvic.

Those who live satvic lives are living proper religious lives, living honestly, having daya, giving to charity etc. This is what most religions teach. The lack of focus on these issues (although they certainly are given due attention) is b/c Gurmat Marg is about rising above these 3 (ways of living) to the 4th state - Turiya Avastha.

It is a rising of the consciousness to a much higher level than is possible just from sattvic living.

[Eternal Sunset]

It does not say that sex is forbidden, but it tells you not to give into it. This gives you something to think about and work on . If i am a married man and i have sex with my wife, and i suddenly want to go a few steps further, then it becomes masala , it becomes add-ons and hereby its a luxury good. Anal sex is a luxury good as it is not the standard way of having sex, and the only reason for doing it must be for pleasure. Gurbani tells us not to give into pleasure,- and by doing anal sex you have given in as you were not satisfied with the standard way of having sex

- define standard way of having sex

- define luxury

This is just your subjective vision of sexuality. I am asking gurbani's opinion.

Anyways I am reading Dasam Granth and I think I am close to find an explanation.

Matheen I didn't start the topic. all I see is people giving THEIR opinion rather than giving explanations from gurbani.

[amardeep]

standard way = a normal intercourse with penetration in vagina.

luxury- everything masala, oral anal as these are "unnormal" ways of having sex and the reason for doing this is nothing but pleasure.

What does Dasam Granth say about this

[Malwe Da Sher]

Reluctantly posting, but here goes:

Theres a mention of anal in Chartropakhiyan, within which the context suggests its an act that demeans, lowers, imbarasses, shames etc the person its being performed on. And if I remember correctly regarding oral its said that it is performed by those who are otherwise unable to satisfy their parter.

Some people just like going round and round in circles pointlessly, and others enjoy putting shardaloos of another religion in dubhida.

As Matheen said, why the fixation with the issue?

[Mithr]

I agree with Malwe dha sher. Why the fixation on this issue?

[amardeep]

shaheediyan: i have the charitro pakhyan at home, could you tell me what the number of the sakhies are

[shaheediyan]

Amardeep, I think you mean Malwe da Shere.

[Eternal Sunset]

Amardeep wrote:

standard way = a normal intercourse with penetration in vagina.

luxury- everything masala, oral anal as these are "unnormal" ways of having sex and the reason for doing this is nothing but pleasure.

What does Dasam Granth say about this

This is your opinion. Definition of normal and standard would depend on culture and tradition. If you are going to go for standards of normality then refer to those that existed in the Guru's time not your own.

The sakhi referring to anal sex in the Charitropakhian is that of the philandring king who used to commit adultery with other women. His wife wants to teach him a lesson and tells another man that the king abused his wife. She dresses that man as a woman and presents him-her to her husband the king. The king is seduced and as he is about to have sex with him-her, that man anally rapes the king to teach him a lesson.

This sakhi does not concern us here because it is a homosexual act not a heterosexual act. We were discussing the heterosexual form of anal sex not the homosexual one, even though it would be interesting to later on explore what gurbani says about homosexuality. Singh Sahib Joginder Vedanti condemned homosexuality but I don't remember him giving the scriptural reason for it. We can keep this for later. Also that sakhi is literature and the narrator does not give a moral judgement whether that practise is allowed in Sikhi or not.

I am still reading Dasam bani for the issue of anal sex. I do think I am about to find a reference.

[Xylitol]

"I am still reading Dasam bani for the issue of anal sex. I do think I am about to find a reference."

Well, have fun.

[Eternal Sunset]

I found a reference about Kok shastar. Does anyone have info about what this is? thanks

[SURYADEV]

Koka Shastra is a granth based on the Kama Sutra. From my understanding, whereas the later is a treatise on the whole man/woman relationship in society the Koka Shastra has dispensed with the ethics and ideals and deals strictly with technical love-making and how both sexes can provide pleasure for each other.

All these books come under the heading of Kama Shastra, and include the Ananga Ranga and Ratirahasya as well.

Modern translations are available including western authored simplified versions that only deal with sex postions, kissing etc.

I Highly recommend people dispense with their shyness and inhibitions and read these books if only to enhance their relationships.

Happy Love-Making (whether by the front door back door!!!) LOL