India set to launch its first Moon probe

[Mithar]

Unbreakable if you think that the Bhagti movement is a reaction to the Muslims converting the indigenous peoples of India, then you are sadly mistaken. This is the reason that you may find given in Hindutva websites which would have us believe that these great Saints were a nationalistic bunch who opposed anything that was not Indian. The Bhagti movement Saints were God conscious Saints, that included Guru Nanak Dev Jee, the Bhagats whose Bani is in SGGSJ and even other Bhagats like Chaitanya Mahaprabhu of Gaudiya Mat, Mira Bai and even Sufi Saints. Of course only Guru Nanak Dev Jee for us is Satguru.

You need to read the individual stories of the Bhagats to realise how and why they did Prachar and you yourself will come to the conclusion that these Saints were full of compassion for the suffering of the people, they certainly did not preach because they opposed the Muslims. INFACT many times Muslims of Afghan and Mughal origin were the greatest Shardhaloos of these Bhagti movement Saints.

Guru Tegh Bahadur Jee did not give his life for the Pandits because they were Hindus. Guru Jee would have done that regardless of which faith they belonged to, in fact they would have done it even if Muslims had taken asylum of Guru Jee.

When did I say Sikhi is a missionary faith? Sikhi is NOT a missionary faith in the sense that Abrahamic religions are. We are a faith following the traditions of the Bhagti movement, in the traditions of the 10 Gurus, the Bhagats.

[Mithar]

NOTHING in return. So why become a preacher when you should be a sevadhar. They themselves will know that it was a Sikh who helped me and the rest God will take care of.

Our Duty is to do seva where it is required and nothing more.

I’m in total agreement. I don’t like preachers of other faiths trying to preach to me either. Only those with great Karmas have the good fortune of becoming servants of the house of Satguru Nanak Dev Jee. When Sant Attar Singh jee MastuanayWalay would do Prachar village to village doing kirtan only those lucky souls whose good Karma had blossomed connected to Gurmat the rest of the people just missed out on it.

If a person does not have the Good fortune or Karma of connecting to the house of Guru Nanak Dev, then no matter how much you do prachar to them they will not follow Gurmat.

[Ragmaala]

Regardless if a poor person can change his Karma or not, but as Sikhs we should do good karma by helping the poor and unfortunate in anyway we can. We need to have compassion, this will destroy ALOT of bad karma we have.

We should also have compassion on them and introduce people to Gurmat i think, that would be the ultimate compassion.

makes sense

[Ragmaala]

wow i invoked some interesting responses lol

[Morghe Sahar]

Unbreakable wrote:

"NOTHING in return. So why become a preacher when you should be a sevadhar. They themselves will know that it was a Sikh who helped me and the rest God will take care of.

Our Duty is to do seva where it is required and nothing more."

Yes nothing in return. If you actually took time to inform yourself about non Sikh charities that don't "preach" to the people they help you'd realize how foolish these statements are.

So far I haven't seen Sikhs distributing food to homeless people in the streets of the major capitals of Europe but I have seen MANY Catholic, Jewish, Muslim and even Vaishnava charities doing that without asking the people whom they help to listen to some sermon. In fact in one of his latest writing H.H. Pope Benedict XVIth has urged Catholic to serve without second thoughts of trying to convert the helped. Jewish organisations don't convert and Vaishnavas are just satisfied with people eating Hari's prasad and as for Muslim charities such as the Secours Islamique de France I have never seen them distribute anything but couscous and mint tea.

Then again any stranger entering a Sikh langar hall will be given a lecture on Sikh generosity and how it's unique to Sikhs....forgetting to mention of course that langar was a Persian Islamic institution to start with but that is another discussion...

You see people who receive help from Catholic, Jewish or Islamic charities rarely get to have to listen to sermons about how charitable religion xyz is whereas the visitor of a Sikh langar hall is bound a lecture in bad english about how great Sikhs are.

So much for "nothing in return"

[Matheen]

So far I haven't seen Sikhs distributing food to homeless people in the streets of the major capitals of Europe....

You didn't look hard enough - there is a group of Singhs who distribute hot food and drink every week to London's homeless people.

Throughout Africa, wherever there are Sikhs, they regularly distribute food, medicines and clothing.

You don't hear about them because they don't make a fuss about it.

Now, back to India's moon mission.........

[chatanga1]

bahadur, why make a good point, and then make an arse of yourself contradicting the same point?

you say very rightly, that there are charities who will help without looking to convert, and in the same breath say any starnger entering a langar will be given a lecture on sikh generosity.

Just as some haev generalised good charites into having ulterior motives, you have generalised about sikhs and langar. at my local gurdwara , We have non-sikhs who come very regualalry to eat langar. They dont ever come into darbar or anything, or know what langar -/sikhi is about. I have never seenheard of anyone approach them to "save them".

I wish you would quit with your genealissations about the sikhs, cos i bet that as a muslim, you must get a lot yourslef and you will (hopefully) agree it just comes down to ignorance, or stupidity.

Anyways, i dont know you was morghe sahar, so a belated Eid Mubarak, to yourslef and the Ummah.

[amardeep]

One thing i found amazing was how sikhs had made langar places in the himalaya mountains where hindu and sikh pilgrims would come to have a meal on their way towards their respective pilgrimage centers. In Hazur Sahib, they serve food especially for homeless people 3 times a day. Thats amazing..

i think our generation in europe will start to distribute food to homeless people in europe within the next 20 years when our generation are controlling the Gurdwaras etc.... Then we will see the true light of Sikhism,

[Morghe Sahar]

Matheen wrote:

"You didn't look hard enough - there is a group of Singhs who distribute hot food and drink every week to London's homeless people."

Good to see Sikhs imitating Catholic charities.

Chatanga wrote:

"you say very rightly, that there are charities who will help without looking to convert, and in the same breath say any starnger entering a langar will be given a lecture on sikh generosity.

Just as some haev generalised good charites into having ulterior motives, you have generalised about sikhs and langar. at my local gurdwara , We have non-sikhs who come very regualalry to eat langar. They dont ever come into darbar or anything, or know what langar -/sikhi is about. I have never seenheard of anyone approach them to "save them". "

These are things I have seen with my own eyes in many many gurdware. I am happy you frequent a gurdwara that upholds some manners but that is not the case of many other gurdware.

"Anyways, i dont know you was morghe sahar, so a belated Eid Mubarak, to yourslef and the Ummah."

wa alaik

[jsingh96]

Good to see Sikhs imitating Catholic charities.

catholics did not invent the idea of nishkaam seva.

[Morghe Sahar]

jsingh96 wrote:

"catholics did not invent the idea of nishkaam seva."

Given the fact that Catholicism predates Sikhism by several centuries and that other religions predating Sikhism have also different forms of selfless service charities it goes without saying that Sikhism did not invent the concept of selfless service.

As to the form that seva takes it has no original forms in Sikhism either. The langar is an institution borrowed from the Safavi Persia and the idea of serving food for the homeless in the street as has been mentionned earlier by a poster is borrowed from Christian charities.

In fact when reading the writings of several Indian reformists, be it Singh Sabha, Neo Hindus or Aligarh Muslims, it is very clear that they admit to draw inspiration from Catholic and specifically Jesuit institutions for the creation of orphanages and free schools. This is not to say that charities did not exist in India before. In fact we have clear evidence of free hospital having been created all over Ashoka's empire due to the influence of Mahayana Buddhism that holds karuna (compassion) as one of its core teachings. But the way these charities are being managed now in India by the movements I just mentioned is in its entirely Catholic in inspiration.

In any case I am sure the poor people who get help from institutions like Pingalwara are not interested about who invented this or the other concept but there is always necessity to correct those who falsely claim for themselves things they never invented...

As for the space programm and billions being used for that space programm, the idea of spending all that money on the poor is sheer idiotic populism. The economic problems of India are structural and injecting billions into a sick structure is totally counter productive. Rather economic growth and well distributed wealth are likely to solve the poverty problems that many Indians still face. Economic growth implies an endeavour to give one's country the skills and means to achieve this. The space programm is an excellent path in that direction showing the whole world India's maturity in the world of technology, a maturity that will help India progress economically.

[unbreakable]

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[chatanga1]

Bahadur, probably everything in Sikhi has be pre-dated by another religion. I dont really think any1 has an issue with it. i certainly dont.

[Matheen]

No need to start swearing, what happened to 'mitha bolna, nivke chalna'?

[Morghe Sahar]

unbreakable wrote:

"Which other Faiths apart from Sikhism that hold a 24hr langar (depends on how much help they have at hand, i.e. man power), that have a langar type "department" part of the faith, where the founder or one of the prophets have made it part of the faith and the duty of the followers to carry it on?"

Langar is a Persian Shi'a institution that was widespread under the Safavids with its roots in the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (as). Langar houses or langar khaneh were a popular feature in Safavid and Qajar Iran and that's where Indian Sufis and Sikhs took the idea from. The economic and sociological situation in Iran having changed the langar as a regular institution is found mostly in Sufi khaneghahs and major shrines such as Imam Reza's shrine in Mashhad for example that has a 24 hour kitchen. Masjids and Hosseiniehs and organisations such as the charity sections of the Basijis and the Revolutionary guards very often tour poorer areas providing people with free food, clothing and medicine. In Sufi khaneghahs the langar is served exactly like in gurdware except that self service is not allowed so that those dervishes in the khaneghah have the maximum opportunity to serve the guests. Also on major religious holidays, marriages and funerals free food is distributed in the street to everyone not just inside the masjids or hosseiniehs. Giving out free food and being hospitable is an act that is beautiful in the eyes of Allah (swt).

[amardeep]

There are some singhs in uk working to create a langar hall for the poor in kabul.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=40522

this is just beatiful.

morghe sahar: As shaheeiyan once said, The Gurus celebrated and continued what is beautiful, and did not try to create new things.

[Mithar]

Bahadur says that Langar is copied from Shais or Sufis, but i know of many if any Shia or Sufi mosques that has a 24hr langar like Sikh Gurdwaras, in the west or in India. This is just one of his many bogus theories Bahadur comes up with.

Another thing is, Sikhs do NOT copy their humanitarian traditions from the Catholics. As politically incorrect as it may sound, but where as the Catholics will try to convert the people they are helping, Sikhs do NOT expect conversion nor do they try to convert people they help. Sikhs help people WITHOUT any ulterior motive. I don't see how Sikhs or Catholics are anywhere near the same or similar.

I know that many Sikh brothers here do not like saying anything politically incorrect about the Catholics, but it's the TRUTH. Do you actually think the Catholics or Christians would be doing this seva if they were not allowed to try to convert people to Christianity? Look at it all over the world, Christians(including Catholics) do humanitarian work with an ulterior motive. You may accept the truth or decide to cover your eyes mouth and ears but the truth is the truth about the Catholics.

I'm not criticising the Catholics. I praise them for their work even if it means they are converting people in return. At least they are doing some work for humanity in this cold dark world.

[Morghe Sahar]

Mithar wrote:

"Bahadur says that Langar is copied from Shais or Sufis, but i know of many if any Shia or Sufi mosques that has a 24hr langar like Sikh Gurdwaras, in the west or in India. This is just one of his many bogus theories Bahadur comes up with."

The Persian Shia origin of the langar is well documented in serious historiographic and anthropological works on Iran and Sufism.Fact is that the langar as an institution existed in Persia already.

As for you not finding any langar in Shia mosques or Sufi shrines please let me laugh, that's assuming you ever entered any of these. Many such institutions have langar in India probably not most.But then again what I discussed was the Persian origin of the langar not if IndoPak Muslims practise it. Then again not all gurdware have langar either and many gurdware don't serve langar when they are closed...so the 24 hour thing is a bit of a myth.

As for your ignorant statement about Catholicism...go and ask the Muslim kids of Cairo if Sister Emmanuelle forced them to become Christians...

It so happens that my own brother works on Catholic charities and it is very clear that many of them do not force their beliefs upon those they serve. Catholic charity workers are meant to see Christ's suffering face in the needy they help and serve as an act of love to Christ. There is a clear distinction in Catholic canon law between missioning orders and charity orders and most of the time the two are separate. Some orders like the Jesuits did indeed provide charity as well as insentives to conversion but has now become a rare thing.The age of forced conversions by Catholics is definetly over.

As for Sikhs helping others without ulterior motive...I would take that with a few pinches of salt. Sikhism has had and still has missionary orders such as the ancient masands before they went corrupt and the four sampradayas and it is needless to say that the help provided to poor people will be very much an insentive for them to adopt Sikhism.If Sikhism were not a missionising religious movement it would never have left Panjab to start with, which thinking of it now...

[chatanga1]

Good God Bahadur, so duz the muslims and cristians as well. But if we wre to look at percentages and compare between Sikhs and MUslims/christians , then we wud see a different story.

i dont know why you keep banging on about things in Sikhi that have been pre-ordained in other religions. No-one says that Sikhi is 100 % new. Next you will say that cos we belive in 1 God, that we have borrowed that from another religion as well. Cos there are many religions before Sikhi that worshipped only 1 God.

[Morghe Sahar]

Chatanga1 wrote:

"Good God Bahadur, so duz the muslims and cristians as well. But if we wre to look at percentages and compare between Sikhs and MUslims/christians , then we wud see a different story."

What percentage? Any reasonable chart you can indicate measuring intent behind charity?

"i dont know why you keep banging on about things in Sikhi that have been pre-ordained in other religions. No-one says that Sikhi is 100 % new. Next you will say that cos we belive in 1 God, that we have borrowed that from another religion as well. Cos there are many religions before Sikhi that worshipped only 1 God."

What I have an issue about is people claiming certain institutions and traditions to be theirs when in fact they have been borrowed from somewhere else.

[Malwe Da Sher]

What I have an issue about is people claiming certain institutions and traditions to be theirs when in fact they have been borrowed from somewhere else.

Ohhhh. Hope you dont loose any sleep over your issue. Did anyone ever tell you theres more to the world than sikhawareness.com?

[Morghe Sahar]

Malve da Sher wrote:

"Ohhhh. Hope you dont loose any sleep over your issue. Did anyone ever tell you theres more to the world than sikhawareness.com?"

A guy posts two little posts and you get all upset...ay baba