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Chatka Video at Hazoor Sahib , not for the faint of heart !!


Ragmaala

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The Amarnama (Nanded. 1708 - Dhadi Nath Mal) clearly mentions the incident where Guru's Singhs killed all Vaishnav Bairagi Madho Das's goats with 'one clean stroke' of their swords....

Also, don't ignore the past and present rehitnamas which clearly forbid animal killed in the Muslim manner - meaning that another correct method of slaughter must have existed....

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I do not wish to divert the topic in a different direction but shaheedya what is your view on meat in regards to what is written in Gurbani and what is written in rehitnamas? (ie Gurbani saying its wrong to eat meat and rehitnamas saying its ok as long as its not halal) ? You can answer me on pm if you wish

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Also, see Guru Kiyan Sakhiyan - 1790 - Sarup Singh Kaushish... regarding Vasiakhi events. 5 tents, 5 goats, 5 pyare, 5 jatke....

The biggest indirect link into this whole subject is Bhai Gurdas Ji's observation of 6th Master changing the image of Guru from Bhagti to Shakti (not to say one replaced the other, just added to it). Bhai Gurdas Ji clearly makes mention of 2 new innovations - 1 raising the sword i.e. creating a fighting army and 2 the Guru starts hunting. Many people look at these in isolation, but in my eyes that is wrong. They are both mentioned side by side, so are and must be connected and relevant. Many Khalsa traditions have been taken form Rajput/Kshatriya i.e. shastar pooja/namaskara, hunting, shastar vidya, the name Singh and jhatka.

Thats my opinion anyway.

Amardeep, history clearly tells us (both Sikh and 3rd party i.e. European) that Sikhs (at least Nihang Singh Khalsa) hunted and ate meat.

History also tells us that they didn't i.e. Bhagti Marg Sevapanthis, Nirmalai etc.

History also gives us examples of crossovers between the 2.

If one is to be a true warrior (not just a name sake like most Singhs today) then I do really believe as per all warrior traditions, there is nothing wrong with them being acquainted with death and Rajoguna (inc diet). If they don't want to, then thats fine to - as per Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhinderan. But I don't recall Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji ever slating Nihang traditions and diets either.

Lastly, I believe Gurbani is quiet on the subject of meat (see the article on meat I posted a while back). It's not a dietary manual - it is wisdom on how to find and elevate ones soul to the point that the soul is no longer seperate from its source.

Ultimately, I believe one should follow what their Guru (Panj Pyare) tell them. It's all about belief and subservience, in whatever form the object of veneration appears to us. If you haven't taken amrit, follow what your heart tells you, after you have researched the matter!

But one thing I believe is, if one wants to eat meat, then either kill the pasu yourself or eat of a pasu which you have seen killed with your own eyes. Its the only way to ensure the animal was killed humanely (as possible) and that it wasn't killed in the Muslim manner. This rule would automatically cut out 90% of Sikh meat consumption and benefit the environment in doing so!!

Thats my pennys worth!

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Shaheediyan, we all agree that Madho Das was a fanatical vegatarian. Then that begs the question of why would Madho Das have Bakre in his Dera? What purpose could Bakre serve in Madho Das's dera? could it be that the whole "Bakras being Chakta'ed at Madho Das's dera" is simply made up story by our historians long ago?

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Shaheediyan, we all agree that Madho Das was a fanatical vegatarian. Then that begs the question of why would Madho Das have Bakre in his Dera? What purpose could Bakre serve in Madho Das's dera? could it be that the whole "Bakras being Chakta'ed at Madho Das's dera" is simply made up story by our historians long ago?

Thats a good question.

Unless he had Bakris to drink milk and he needed bakras for reproductive purposes.

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Firstly, I am NOT pointing at someone in particular. But its really hard to digest that some persons having such a great knowledge could think this way.

- Guru Ji might have killed goats or any other animal, but HE never ordered us to follow them regularly. Wherever Guru Ji killed any animal during hunting or otherwise, it was meant to free that animal from that juni. Guru Ji was able to provide mukti because HE HIMESELF is mukt.

- If saying that jatka and meat consumption is fine for Nihang or so called Warrior people, then those warrior people should fulfill their duties also. e.g where were those warriors during 1984 in India, 11/2001 in USA, or recently in Mumbai or in any other place where humanity is being buried..........in Sikhism warrior do NOT only defend iteself, their duty is to save humanity from bad forces.......but to be frank I have NOT seen your warrior class in any situation.

Wake up, it is NOT the right of warrior people to have meat and jatka............I can agree to some extent that if someone is fighting for other people for long time and there is nothing to eat, then one could think of having meat as last optoin.......but in normal life justing saying we are Nihangs or warrior class and having meat does NOT make sense.

Lastly, the people who gives examples of Gurus killing animals during hunting and other examples to prove that eating meat and doing jhatka is ok, I have a question for them............why do NOT they copy other things of Guru Ji (in reality we should NEVER copy Guru's act).....but if someone wants then copy fully.......by requesting his/her Father to serve the humanity by giving his head......prepare and send their children to fight with the enemy and achieve martyrdom......and also lay down their own life for others........................it is just hypocrite who want to approve their own conduct by giving mis-interpreted examples of GuruJi.

das

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It wasn't just Guru Sahiban but Singhs that hunted/chatkad. see my references.

Actually, many people keep goats in India without wanting to eat them. They serve as natural grass cutters, they produce fertilizer, and their milk has more vitamins and minerals than a buffalo or cow, that is why mothers who can't give milk in India, give goats milk for the first 6 months and then move on to cow/buffalo milk. Outside of that, people keep goats as pets believe it or not!

I am not advocating meat eating for the general populace, my moderation and responsibility points have been conveniently ignored. I have not even touched on meat consumption today and factors concerning humane treatment, animal diet, anmal life quality, envitonmental impact etc, you would be very surprised with my views and what I preach to those around me in my personal life.

But this subject is matter of history and tradition, which needs to be understood in the correct context without biased views. we try and understand based on our modern day views and education.

In any case, there are other references, but theres no point continuining because most here more interested in proving their personal theories rather than discussing using proper referenced sources.

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It is evident from the history that there were some instances where GuruJi ordered their Singhs to kill some animals (if I remember correctly snake, titar etc.), but that was the ORDER of Guru and after killing that animal Guru Ji explained why that animal was killed and what it did in its previous birth. At the same time I am NOT able to find ANY reference where GuruJi ordered their Singhs to do that reguarly (every year or on every occasion).......I've repeatedly requested senior members number of times to let the public know the instances where 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th GuruJi ordered their Singhs to do jhatka EVERY year or regularly on every occasion, but nothing has come up yet.

I do NOT know how to write it, but let's say in 2 lines: Killing of animals by GuruJi or by their Singhs (on Guru's order) is quite different from today's regular jhatka. Killing of animals by Guru and their Singhs (on Guru's order) is being mis-interpreted and giving these references, it does NOT approve the jhatka.

Now, please senior members provide the reference where Guru Ji has ordered their Sikhs to kill animals REGULARLY or for Jhatka every year.....and please do NOT provide the reference where GuruJi killed or HIS Singhs (on Guru's order) killed animals on some occasions........I am requesting for proper reference "Where GuruJi instructed us to do jhatka reguarly".......do NOT interpret the Sakhi by saying Guru or Guru's Singh did this, so it is approved.........let us present all sakhis (without interpretation) which you think that it leads to approval of jhatka.

Let me share with you a sakhi of karams as follows:

Once there was a Rajkumar who was married to a Rajkumari. One day Rajkumar bought a new sword, when he was sleeping his wife wanted to see the new sword and she got the sword from its Meaan and by chance (by mistake) the sword fell on her husband's neck and the Rajkumar's head got seperated from his body. His wife feared that she would face the punishment now, so fearing from the punishment she put the blaim on another person who was a bhagat of Shiva. AND due to that that bhagat was given punishment by cutting his one hand. Now, that Shiv bhagat goes to another Jootshi and asked why he got the punishment for the things that he did NOT go. Then that Jootshi told him that: it's result of his last janam's karam. He told hime that in his last janam, on the shores of Ganga you were doing taap and nearby there was a butcher/meat wala and one day his gao ran and that that meat wala asked you "Have you seen gaoo" and as you were doing your taap, so just pointed your finger towards that direction. That meat wala goes in that direction and then killed the gao there and then a lion came and ate that killed gao and meatwala also. Then comes great rain and the bones of that meatwala and gao came to Ganga. And due to the Ganga's importance (Ganga de mahatam): Meatwala born into one Raja's house as Rajkumar, and gao also become Rajkumari. Due to this Rajkumari(gao in previous birth) killed Rajkumar(meatwala in previous birth) and the pandat got the punishment for the share of giving the directions to meatwala which led the death of gao.

Now, how could jhatka (by normal persons) and eating meat be allowed to anyone (either by Nihangs or Warrior class).

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pracheen panth prakhash

'doee vele outh bandyoo dastare

pahir aat rakhyoo shastar sambhaare

peeoo sudha aoo kheloo shikaar

shastar vidiya jim hoee sambhaar ||17||

kar jhatkai bakran koo khayoo

murdai kuthe nikat n jayoo'

(page 110 in pracheen panth prakhash steek by Baba Santha singh Ji)

this is part of the bachans guru sahib is givin his khalsa panth after the first amrit sancahar. this is clear instruction to hunt and eat jhatka.

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Thanks jsingh96 for the reference. But I have few questions as follows: I'm NOT sticking to my point, but trying to get the core:

- "this is part of the bachans guru sahib is givin his khalsa panth after the first amrit sancahar. this is clear instruction to hunt and eat jhatka." - Is there any other reference when Guru Gobind Singh Ji said this apart from "pracheen panth prakhash"??

- How is "pracheen panth prakhash" taken by Sants/Mahapurashs. I think Neo and Kam1825 have the opportunity to meet with great Sants if they can shed some light on it.

das

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