Sikh Art Work

[BhagatSingh]

Puratan Singhs and Singhnian did not worry if their kachera was red or blue, and yes, you can put my post up there as well.

[Malwe Da Sher]

I beg to differ, the Bhai Daya Singh rehatnama says the Kasherra of an Akali should be white. If someone bothered to write it, it obviously mattered.

[BhagatSingh]

Bhagat Singh,

Once upon a time the Sikhs were great musicians, they played the most elequent instruments in a skilled manner all in par with the traditions established by their Gurus. One day a creative musician experimented with a new instrument, as it is was something new he felt it would appeal to people and at the same time and they would listen to more gurbani. He was successful, more and more people began listening to kirtan. More and more artists began expressing their abilities with these new instruments that they would singh the Gurus shabads on. After all the method was not important it was the result that mattered - getting people to listen to kirtan. So successful were they in the objective that people stopped learning the traditional instruments, infact most people forget that there ever was such a thing as instruments made by the Guru. Even those who knew of them didnt seem to enjoy traditional instruments as much as the new musicians. No one ever understood that the use of new instruments was for the sole purpose of preaching to the uneducated villagers. And on the greatest stages where the best performers and the greatest musicians would present their art, that what was meant to preach to villagers replaced a tradition established by the Gurus and a tradition which existed in India for hundreds if not thousands of years. Infact, the tunes on these new instruments became more important than the divine hymns themselves.

That is simply human nature. And the story sounds made up. But it has to be a balanced Singh saab. You need good music and you need to good hymns to match. One either one is lacking than overall their is no significant effect on those who listen.

Similarly, there has to be a balance between fantasy and reality. In fact, the line between fantasy and reality has always been very thin. They just have to be in check.

I am up for doing Sikh history projects. Like I've mentioned, I have Bhai Sukha and Mehta's graphic novel planned. I am already working on Sarbloh Warriors.

Those who talk big words about history should step forth and help.

This is one of the many possible dangers of what you are doing. Children will become more concerned with these fantasy charcters than actual history.

Now this is a big assumption. Firstly, children are already into fantasy, they don't care about history. The youth that knows history will exclaim how proud they are proud of their history but sit on their ass all day.

Our great history books are gathering dusts in Gurdwara librarys all over the world, these texts were often written by those who had direct lineages to the Sikh Gurus.

Yes, that is happening already, without the introduction of superheroes or any other fantasy type.

Would it not make sense to try and bring alive the characters within those real history texts rather than make up characters?

yes it would! Did I not say I am up for that?? I want to do BOTH! Balance remember?

Even the making of characters is ok I feel, as Bhai Vir Singh made a success of it. But what you appearing to be doing is making up characters, traditions, history, practices and a whole new religion in itself?

Do you really think I am creating a religion? Oh please! I have had enough of "religion" already.

With Miri Piri (the one with Nihang necromancers) I am creating a world! You haven't even had a glimpse of that world yet. Even then you come to conclusions. On what basis?

Sikh Mutants was loved by every Singh and Singhni I showed the sketches to here in Toronto and Brampton. They totally loved it! Are they still Singhs and Singhnia? Yes. Do they think Mutants exist? No!

Veerji your comics may be a great success and people may love them, but what will have been achieved?

An good image/representation of Sikhs in the media, and of course personal satisfaction.

And so that this does not happen: "Q. What's with all the Sikh supporting characters, but no Sikh super-heroes?

So you noticed this, too? You tell me. It's the strangest thing. Sikhism is one of twelve classical world religions. More people practice Sikhism than Judaism. Perhaps best of all (for comics), Sikhs are easy to draw and they're very visual. Sikhs have their own visually distinctive ethnicity (although non-ethnic Sikhs can convert), their style, religiously significant apparel such as bracelets and, most of all, the turban. Now, many people who aren't Sikhs wear turbans (including Muslims, Hindus, etc.) But when you couple the turban with a surname such as "Singh" or "Kaur", and there you go, instant Sikh. How difficult is that?

Apparently not too difficult, because there are scores of Sikh comic book characters. Hadji Singh (from "Johnny Quest"), Punjab (from "Little Orphan Annie"), Randu Singh (ally of Jason Blood/Demon) and Tabu Jaswinder Singh (best friend of Thunderbolt/Peter Cannon) are some of the better known Sikhs from comics. Newer Sikhs include Omar, the Escapist's assistant (from Michael Chabon's The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay and the comics that came after it), Ajeet Patel (from Stormwatch: Team Achilles, and Lauren Singh (the girlfriend of new Marvel superhero Gravity).

But these Sikhs are always the buddy or friend or helper. They're supporting characters. They don't get the super powers, they don't get to dress up in colorful spandex costumes. They're not superheroes themselves. Why is that?

I even thought I found a Sikh superhero: Non-Stop wears a turban and runs a convenience store in the superhero parody "Minoriteam" on Cartoon Network. But then I found out that Non-Stop worships Krishna. He's a Hindu, not a Sikh.

So even teams that go out of their way to include ethnically diverse, racially diverse and regionally diverse stereotype characters> - teams like Minoriteam, Global Guardians, Cadre of the Immortal, Young Gods... even the "Super Best Friends" from South Park... none of these have a Sikh member on the team.

You know what it is? Partially, the problem is that Sikhs don't have their own state. Their homeland is Punjab, which is a province in India. So while every "international" superhero team anywhere has a Japanese superhero who can eventually be identified as a Buddhist or Shintoist or something, nobody has a Sikh superhero because once they added the Hindu superhero from India, they figured they were done.

So Sikhs are the world's largest religion that doesn't have it's own superhero. But at least they've got all these loyal supporting characters. That's better than Baha'is or Jains have, isn't it?

Still, whenever I see the list of comic book Sikhs I always think, "Always a bridesmaid, never a bride." Sorry, Sikhs."

People will become engufled in these fantasy characters and puratan sakhis will gather more dust.

I plan on doing both and have already started. This point is no longer valid.

People will become more obsessed with make beleive exciting stories and ignore real history.

This is why you do comics, games and stuff for both.

One thing I am afraid of is using actual characters and placing them in a fantasy environment. People won't appreciate the real character. That I would agree with, if that was the case. I feel I would do this if the situation was EXTREME, that is, if noone cared about Sikhi anymore, it was being disrespected, and was about to come to an end, etc, in that case you would revive old stories using sci-fi settings, new planets. Banda Singh would now span the galaxy taking of Mughal planets, and so forth.

Anyway, its normal fantasy with a Sikh twist like Dyanmic Singh ji stated. That is what I think of it as and thats why I made the Sikh X-men and Sikh World of Warcraft.

Yet how were they to know that magical stories had been written already centuries before?

Our history has no magic. If you think so then thats purely your opinion. There is no evidence of the sugared up history everyone talks about as magical. I am actually trying to preserve that history by not creating sugared up graphic novels on it like 300.

The fantasy and the history will become mixed and people will not care to differentiate between the two and it will soon be assumed that it was all just fantasy.

BIG assumption. No onee knows about the future. We will have to experiment and see. If the whole fantasy graphic novel doesn't work then obviously, the series will be stopped.

Also, I am trying to appeal to other audiences besides Sikhs.

Making a game a Sikh history will only appeal to Sikhs whereas as Sikh Mutants's video game will appeal to a wider range of audience.

When seeking to do something revolutionary rather than thinking what benefits it will have in 2 years time you must also consider the consequences in 10 years time. .

Yes I must.

The image, symbology and concepts sorrounding the Akali is considered sacred.

Explain.

If a Sikh cannot respect that then how are those who innocently adopt characters from your work expected to?

Because they are presented in a certain way, sir! Its all about presentation!

Could someone else make a comic based on the idea of a Nihang, could the be used in a novel, a film (Im sure extradanory league of gentleman had a character loosely based on a nihangs).

That character is hardly based on Sikhs. But now because of that character, people know what a Sikh is.

"Look a dude with a turban, he must be a ter...wait he's not a terrorist? "

This has just challenged that person's past belief. and happened because of some loose representation of Sikhs. Imagine What will happen if it was a solid representation of a Sikh. Now imagine a whole line of Sikhs. Now imagine a that line being superheroes.

What respect would these projects have for the sacredness of such ideas?

Define sacredness. Your post is getting confusing now.

Just look at how cheaply samurais have been used in media the media, half the world probably believes the samurai traditions were saved by a white man thanks to Tom Cruises last samurai. People make cartoons about a dog thats a samurai. Has any of this successfully revived samurai teachings, traditions or philosophy?

Because they have not been presented correctly. One, samurai's kept long hair and didn't let anyone cut it. I haven't seen that in any fantasy anime show. Therefore, no one cares. BUT on ther otehr hand, EVERYONE knows what a Samurai is, and alot of white folks are learning Japanese.

There are many things in the world which have both a negative and a positive consequence.

Afterall, someone might say that putting Sikh history in comics has reduced its value and has made it pop art.

You are clearly very telented, with any ability comes great responsability. You have various options in which you can use your talent, your choice is the same as someone in the following situation: imagine somewhen with great musical ability who can play so many instruments. With such a talent this person could make great efforts to popularise and restore the great raag vidiya and musical heritage of the Sikhs. But this particuarly Sikh has a really fond interest in heavy rock music, so instead of doing kirtan with classical instrments which they had the choice to do they form a heavy rock kirtan jatha.

What if they do both? Or rather combine them?

we have now created somthing that appeals to teh Sikhs youth and non-Sikhs.

Again, I intend to experiment with everything. I am not limiting myself to jsut fantasy or history.

They know a lot of young people will listen to their kirtan because a people like heavy rock and indeed many peoplle buy their heavy rock kirtan cds and the travel the world performing their heavy rock kirtan. However, what would all this mean of the sancity of traditionso of the Gurus kirtan, what would it mean for the centuries old vidiya, what will be the consequence 50 years later for how gurbani is percieved and how its performed?

So? I mean there is no harm in that. In fact, traditional kirtan will become more rare and will be of more value. Since all kirtan is rock in your scenario. There must be a balance. If I would be around I would then create competitions where Sikhs are awarded for raag kirtan, since rock has taken over.

If kirtan has not yet been fused with rock then someone like me might create the fusion.

This is society SIngh ji, it changes. Once people like something, then next they like something else, then they come back to the orignal, then later something else and on and on. Just look at the turban styles...

Sorry for the long analogy, I just feel really strongly that stuff like the Akali snake charmer is really dangerous and offensive.

have you read the comments underneath? If not then do so, and then post how you feel. This will give me more accurate feedback.

As much as I love some of your art work I those that picture is a perversion of something highly sacred. I particuarly fail to understand this when there are ample references to Singhs with super human abilities in historic granths.

What historic granths? What superhuman abilities?

If you are referring to our history. No one had a superhuman ability. They are all normal people just like you and me. THe only thing they had which we didn't was that they felt the misery of people around them and wanted to do something. They had passion in their hearts. They did not care what anyone thought of them. They did whatever they thought was right for the whole of mankind and not just their own race. They took action and didn't sit on their lazy ass, eating and drinking.

Although those of a western education may choose to believe stories in such granths are fabricated and make belives stuff, at least they are ground in traditions, history and culture of the Sikhs.

What are these Granths I have never heard of...

I only know of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

I have spoken to 5 or 6 other people who were also disheartened by the consequences of the Akali Snake picture whos ages are from between 18-27.

Please, ask them to read the comments for both the sketch and the painted work in progress. Let's see if they still feel the same way.

Wow, that's the longest post I've ever written. I THINK that's everything.

Phew... I hope there are no errors, that would suck...

Good stuff! I appreciate your concern!

Fateh!

Bhagat Singh

[Guest]

sorry i shouldn't have made a joke here, looks like this topic is going off tangent, please stick to the topic. If you wish to discuss kachera color, kindly make a another topic under formal debate discussion.

[BhagatSingh]

I beg to differ, the Bhai Daya Singh rehatnama says the Kasherra of an Akali should be white. If someone bothered to write it, it obviously mattered.

Not always the case, my friend.

Differ all you want. There is no evidence that kachere of puratan Singh were white, in fact no such rule was proposed by the Guru himself.

Man, they had MORE IMPORTANT things to worry about than white kachere.

[Guest]

Not always the case, my friend.

Differ all you want. There is no evidence that kachere of puratan Singh were white, in fact no such rule was proposed by the Guru himself.

Man, they had MORE IMPORTANT things to worry about than white kachere.

sorry i shouldn't have made a joke here, looks like this topic is going off tangent, please stick to the topic. If you wish to discuss kachera color, kindly make a another topic under formal debate discussion.

[BhagatSingh]

sorry i shouldn't have made a joke here, looks like this topic is going off tangent, please stick to the topic. If you wish to discuss kachera color, kindly make a another topic under formal debate discussion.

Sorry...

[Guest]

Sorry...

No worries. Please do create another topic regarding kachera color under formal debate section if you are curious or like to express your views on this matter.

[BhagatSingh]

My Art is my religion and my aim in it is to give a form to the formless. Sobha Singh

[Matheen]

The Akali is the image of Guru Gobind Singh Ji!!! In actions, looks and thoughts.

An Akali snake charmer or similar IS offensive and degrading.

I know N30 said to start another topic, but Bhagat singh, there is a reason behind the colors worn by the Khalsa. As stated, Bhai Daya Singh, Guru Ji's closest friend wrote the white Kachherey should be worn. Why show anything else?

On a personal note: when younger, I would rather read comics based on real events (like the Amar Charitar series about Sikhi) than anything else.

You admit you haven't read (or heard of) our Historical Granths - trust me, there's more supernatural stuff than you can imagine. Haven't you heard of Baba Deep Singh Ji? or the fact that the ratio of Sikhs to Mughals at the battle of Chamkaur was higher than 1:125000? What about the true stories in the Janam Sakhis?

You have your heart in the right place, if you are going to do something, make it worthwhile.

[Malwe Da Sher]

My concerns are with regards primarily to the Akali snake charmer image (I have read the comments), You are correct people can realise that Sikh mutants are not real, so will not necesarrily lead to the same problems as the likes of the akali snake charmer image.

The analogy refers to the demise of Sikh musical tradition as a resusult of mixing kirtan with with music in popular culture. Explicity referring to the introduction of the harmonium sorry for not making that clear. I dont really buy your justification for the mixture between reality and fantasy based on the mixture of good music with good hymns. When all necessary resources are there - musical instruments, traditions etc, or in this case historical stories with magical elements, then it doesnt seem justified to mix the hymns or stories with something that is neither part of sikh tradition or heritage.

With regards to the fusion of music, Im sure people would see harm in heavy rock kritan. Also, why change it when the Gurus gave us a tradition and even invented instruments for us, its pretty clear they gave us all this for a reason. Likewise why make up fantasy characters and traditions when their are ample stories in sikh history which contain the necessary magic to fulfill your criteria.

Thanks for the advise. Im actually involved in a few different historical projects and was involved in the history side of things with Sarbloh Warriors which appears to have quietened down a bit this past year.

Bhagat Singh what history are trying to preserve when you write:

"Our history has no magic. If you think so then thats purely your opinion. There is no evidence of the sugared up history everyone talks about as magical. I am actually trying to preserve that history by not creating sugared up graphic novels on it like 300."

I am a little concerned that you appear not to be familiar with Sikh historical texts despite being on and endavour to promote history? Our history texts are full of tales where magic was used, including magic spells etc in warfare. You say you are working on the history of Bhai Mehtab Singh and Sukha Singh, how could you not have come across Pracheen Panth Parkash which was written by the same Bhai Mehtab Singhs grandson - Shahid Rattan Singh Bhangu. The text is indeed full of magical tales and is regarded with a sense of sacredness particuarly by Nihang Singhs who view it as the most accurate historical granth. Other granths include Tvarikh Guru Khalsa, Sooraj Parkash Granth, the many janam sakhis, the Gur Bilas literature etc. You really should survey some of these texts if you wish to work on anything related to Sikh history. You will soon find that all the characters, events and magic you need are already there and rather than creating something new you can bring alive history rather than fantasy.Shahid Rattan Singh Bhangu is written extensively on the magical powers of the Singhs and Banda Singh Bahadur, Baba Santa Singh has done extensive katha on this available on www.gurmatchanan.com

Im glad you recognise that Samurais have not been represented correctly. By creating an Akali snake charmer are you not also guilty of misrepresentation? What if someone decided they wished to create an Akali dog like the samurai one, once you start a trend of misrepresentation it keeps going. With regards to sacredness, the form of Akali is considered the form of divine. Using that form as fantasy characters such as akali snake charmer is pretty turning something sacred into something pretty cheap. I did not mean creating a new religion in the liertal sense, rather some stuff like akali snake charmer uses existing religious ideals and changes them so rapidly.

The Bhai Sukha Singh and Mehtab Singh story book sounds like a really good idea. I would advise browsing through history books before doing so. Dont forget to include the pit stop they made in order to make Shaheedi Degh - theres a Gurdwara in Rajastan marking the spot they did this.

Like Matheen I also used to love the Sikh history comic boos and stuff as a kid, I must say I was never really into fantasy stuff after the age of like 6 or 7. Yet carried on reading Sikh history comics for a lot longer. So im not too sure when you say kids are more concerned with fantasy than history.

[shaheediyan]

"My Art is my religion and my aim in it is to give a form to the formless. Sobha Singh"

Yes, thanks to him, the hardy image of Guru Nanak Dev Ji (as per our puratan ithihaas) who travelled though the most dangerous places and difficult terrains on Earth, was transformed into Santa Claus.

[Malwe Da Sher]

Yo shaheediyan chill yo, relax n dat. Its called fusion boi. Manz didnt appreciate da Guroo Nanak n dat but was a heavy into like santa cloz and shiz so ma boi sobha singh mix da 2 into one init. U manz need to relax and do some nap jap yo, get me? lolz peace out

[shaheediyan]

There have been failed attempts to fuse music like dijirido raagi Daya Singh and his daughter (who loves to singbani to Michael Jackson music).

This group of people, to which I will include you, are only filling temporary gaps and are even very successful in that short space of time it takes some one with courage, education and commitment to fill the knowledge and lanuage gap (the problem).

Popularity of raag kirtan and taanti saaj is growing beyond measure day by day, purely, because youth are learning of its existence, origin and purpose. Kids say to their parents " I want to play the instrument my Guru gave to us, and want to sing kirtan as Guru commanded".

The power of Guru will always be higher than the fullfillment of your influenced creative desires.

The same is true of many other Sikh traditions. Trends are being replaced by tradition, tradition that was lost due to the policy of British cultural destruction and later, Sikh reformist self destruction.

You will be pleased to know, I know people who also have some projects planned for the future - based on the oldest and original ithihaas. I foresee the kids who know nothing about Sikhi due to their coconut parents, lapping up your fantasy, and knowing even less about Sikhi, and the kids who want to learn about Sikhi, treating you the same way they treat Daya Singh today, someone who has some talent, but has no satkaar for Guru's traditions.

Talking of preserving Sikh traditions, here is another tip for your Bhai Mehtab/Sukha Singh Ji project - they also set up a Kirtan/Sangeet Taksaal in Rajastan called Budda Jor - in order to PRESERVE their Guru's sacred traditions...! This taksal still exists today.

[Malwe Da Sher]

Yo manz shud translate da guru granth sahib in2 msn language so homies like me can undastand da message of da guruz init. In da hood we need gianis dat can rap dem shabads so we can get da shabads init. Bare manz will come of the streetz to hear, trust me bredrin. Yo u backwardz folkz not know da power of fusion. Sikhz used to be sikk manz. get me?

Brap

Brap

[shaheediyan]

"U manz need to relax and do some nap jap yo, get me? "

Now there is an idea - Atomic Naam Singh

The most lethal of all the 'Akali, Nihang, Sikh, Singh, Khalistani' superheroes... who can be only summoned through an ancient ritual performed by 'Machine Jhatkari Singh'. The ritual requires the Jhatka of 108 goats in 1 minute, only Machine Jhatkari Singh has the power and skill given through 100 generations of Suryavanshi, to perform this task.

Once Atomic Naam Singh appears through the flames created by the river of blood, he draws on the essence of universe - the naam - to destroy everything within 108 miles of him into oblivion - the destruction is caused by nothing other than the pure power of desire for the creators vision.

Sincere apologies to all for the above nonsense, but I am just trying to conceptualise what I think could come of Bhagat Singhs fantasies for the sangats benefit. Bhagat Singh, don't get any ideas!

[BhagatSingh]

The Akali is the image of Guru Gobind Singh Ji!!! In actions, looks and thoughts.

An Akali snake charmer or similar IS offensive and degrading.

I know N30 said to start another topic, but Bhagat singh, there is a reason behind the colors worn by the Khalsa. As stated, Bhai Daya Singh, Guru Ji's closest friend wrote the white Kachherey should be worn. Why show anything else?

On a personal note: when younger, I would rather read comics based on real events (like the Amar Charitar series about Sikhi) than anything else.

You admit you haven't read (or heard of) our Historical Granths - trust me, there's more supernatural stuff than you can imagine. Haven't you heard of Baba Deep Singh Ji? or the fact that the ratio of Sikhs to Mughals at the battle of Chamkaur was higher than 1:125000? What about the true stories in the Janam Sakhis?

You have your heart in the right place, if you are going to do something, make it worthwhile.

Singh Saab those are either legends or heresay. Baba Deep Singh's head was not completely separated. His sotry was combined with a Jatt legend where this headless dude fights with his head in his hand.

You think janamsakhis are an accurate source of history? ok, but I would take those with a pinch of salt.

Can we get over that Akali Snake Charmer bibi. I have heard enough now. Read the comments underneath the sketch and the incomplete painting, before you post (about that particular piece). I honestly would like feedback on other things e.g. Mutants.

BTW What about a Nihang Dragon Rider?

[BhagatSingh]

"My Art is my religion and my aim in it is to give a form to the formless. Sobha Singh"

Yes, thanks to him, the hardy image of Guru Nanak Dev Ji (as per our puratan ithihaas) who travelled though the most dangerous places and difficult terrains on Earth, was transformed into Santa Claus.

If you cannot appreciate what Sobha Singh had done, you obviously won't appreciate my work or any other artist's work. I think Ill leave you guys to your issues... I have more important things to do than trying to reason with unreasonable people.

[BhagatSingh]

Yo manz shud translate da guru granth sahib in2 msn language so homies like me can undastand da message of da guruz init. In da hood we need gianis dat can rap dem shabads so we can get da shabads init. Bare manz will come of the streetz to hear, trust me bredrin. Yo u backwardz folkz not know da power of fusion. Sikhz used to be sikk manz. get me?

Brap

Brap

hahaha, quite amusing.

[BhagatSingh]

Anyways guys, thanks for the feedback, it was a pleasure meeting a new group of people!

Keep an eye out for that Baba Deep Singh painting, its almost done.

Fateh!

Bhagat Singh

[Only five]

Shaheediya, you are completely right here. This bhagat singh fellow is trying to dilute Sikh history. By him creating fake characters and adding his fake story's in then the next generation will not be able to tell from what is true and what was made up so a couple of people could make money off Sikh history.

This sounds like someone just trying to make a quick buck with no regard to keeping the Sikh history the way it is.

[dalsingh101]

Bhagat Singh!

I am up for doing Sikh history projects. Like I've mentioned, I have Bhai Sukha and Mehta's graphic novel planned.

Oye mundeya! Don't let the billi out of the thala! sssshhhhh..........

lol

[dalsingh101]

Guys,

I fully understand the fear of someone exploiting the faith for money. But Bhagat is young and just experimenting. Get over it.

Trust me, you'll like some of his work, just give him time. Bhagat stay off these sites if you don't like criticism or get used to it.

[randip singh]

Shaheediya, you are completely right here. This bhagat singh fellow is trying to dilute Sikh history. By him creating fake characters and adding his fake story's in then the next generation will not be able to tell from what is true and what was made up so a couple of people could make money off Sikh history.

This sounds like someone just trying to make a quick buck with no regard to keeping the Sikh history the way it is.

Come on man, it is no secret you don't like Bhagat Singh and chased him all around SPN and other forums.

Bhaghat Singh,

Keep up the good work. If anyone has studied Sikh Art, and I can recommend a good few books, you will note how much Sikh art has changed.

I mean, I saw an illustration of Guru Gobind Singh wearing a Patiala style pugh? If anyone knows about pughs they will know that probably never even existed around that time, but in the artisits mind, that is how he saw Guruji........and that is fine. Everyone image of the Guru's is different.

[dalsingh101]

The Bhai Sukha Singh and Mehtab Singh story book sounds like a really good idea. I would advise browsing through history books before doing so. Dont forget to include the pit stop they made in order to make Shaheedi Degh - theres a Gurdwara in Rajastan marking the spot they did this.

I was looking for details on this Gurdwara but couldn't find it. Can you help Malwe da sher?