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That was a different topic and host never gave Jeonwala enough time to talk.

That debate was similar to the one here. I am trying to have a fair discussion on this Forum where the Moderator himself is biased and is holding my responses for quite some time before posting with Edits, and sometimes even without any hint of it to the readers.

Admin Note: Please check your pm for the third time. All sevadars have social life and families and work to do. I have already set out the approval time for moderated messages.

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The setting for that debate was alright but no one said anything bad about each other in the debate. I wasn't there so I can't comment on what went on before the debate. I also linked Jeonwala debate with Jathedar Iqbal Singh of Takht Patnaa Sahib. That debate was also alright. Jeonwala and Hari Singh debate went on properly until the end. Regarding the Ghagga and Kulbir Singh debate, that isn't the whole debate. I am not sure how long the katha guy will take to prepare but our side is always ready to have sambaad.

Like we have seen here, many people don't understand the core philosophies of Gurmat such as description of God and things like that. Some guys just keep copy pasting from other places which makes it easy for the copy paster but takes the whole time out of the responder. I haven't been able to sit with my family because of answering people's questions here. I also made a thread for Pro Dasam Granth side to decide on who Poet Shyam, Raam and Kaal are. That is also something the pro Dasam Granth side needs to decide. Another thing to decide is, is whole Dasam Granth work of one writer or several? This is important because if there is only 1 writer, then anything that is again Gurmat will reject the whole granth because Guru Gobind SIngh Ji wouldn't write anything which would prove to be anti-Gurmat or anti-history. Once we have this information, we can create a setting for debate in the Toronto if the Pro Dasam Granth side wants to debate with me. If they want to debate with Jeonwala or Prof. Darshan SIngh or someone else, then they can decide with the respective party. However, option outside of GTA seems invalid because of what Hari Singh Randhwara did. Jeonwala left his work to go debate and didn't work for almost a whole week. He drives truck so imagine the money he lost. He also paid for flight to New York. Prof. Darshan SIngh was in same situation because he also paid for flight but Hari Singh Randhawa did moke maar. Prof. Darshan Singh had also just gotten out of hospital after ear surgeries. He left his rest to have discussion so at least some conclusion could be reached but what Hari Singh Randhawa did was very disgraceful and unacceptable.

Hari Singh Radhawe Wala didn’t even bother answering a phone call from Radio Awaz in Seattle to answer questions about debacle on his proposed Dasam Granth debate in New York. You folks can call Ajay Singh the operator of the Radio station to verify. Hari Singh avoided the live interview for the whole week he stayed in Seattle.Yet he is still the SANT !

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I had posted a question to the Pro Dasam Granth lobby to explain why the Dasam Granth ranges in various versions from 500 pages to over 1,400 pages today

Any reference for that?

Read below to know your other answers

Authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib - Prof Piara Singh Padam

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Authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib

Prof. Piara Singh Padam

Guru Gobind Singh Ji, the tenth heir of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, possessed great qualities of a warrior and a poet. He used the might of sword and pen equally to bring a revolution in lives of common people. Without a match, he was the ideal Guru, poet and a warrior. The 'Khande-Dhaar' Bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is so powerful that it possesses powers to turn water into Amrit and make volcanoes erupt from lifeless soil to give birth to revolutions. This is not merely an example of a fantasy; life sketch of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is full of such examples.

An example of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's warrior spirit comes from the creation of the Khalsa Panth and the bani in 'Dasam Granth Sahib' details his influential ability as a high-class poet very precisely. The Dasam Granth Sahib is a collection of various writings of the Dasam Guru which was compiled after his 'jyoti-jot' with the motivation and instructions of Mata Sundar Kaur Ji. This effort was undertaken by Bhai Mani Singh Ji's attendant scholars, including Bhai Sheea Singh Ji. The following are the prominent writings of the Dasam Granth Sahib:

Jaap Sahib, Akaal Ustat, Gyaan Parbodh, Shastar Naam-Mala, Chandi Charitrokti Bilas, Vaar Durga Ki, Bachitar Natak, Charitro Pakhyaan, Hakayat and Zafarnaama. In addition, there are 'Shabad Ragaa Ke' (shabads written in various ragas), 32 Sawaeay, Khalsa Mehima, Khyaal, Sadd and the Asfotak Chands.

The Bachitar Natak and the Charitro Pakhyaan are two most extensive banis of Dasam Granth Sahib. The Bachitar Natak narrates the tail of various ancient gods and goddesses in a modern and enthusiastic way. Terminology and wording full of bir-russ is used to help people learn appropriate lessons from lives of their idols. The banis focus chiefly on the common people so they could be influenced to take part in the revolution started by Guru Sahib. Maintaining traditions isn't very difficult, but to use these traditions to scheme for contemporary development is certainly an art. This was the main purpose of mentioning stories and tales of various gods and goddesses. Guru Gobind Singh Ji made sure that he isn't mistaken as a worshipper of demigods and he clearly denounced such worship in many places in Dasam Granth Sahib. He states that his main notion behind writing accounts of Sri Ram, Sri Krishna and

Durga is only to uplift the spirit of war in the people:

ਦਸਮ ਕਥਾ ਭਾਗੌਤ ਕੀ, ਭਾਖਾ ਕਰੀ ਬਨਾਇ,

ਅਵਰਿ ਬਾਸਨਾ ਨਾਂਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ, ਧਰਮਜੁੱਧ ਕੇ ਚਾਇ॥2491॥ (ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਅਵਤਾਰ)

I have composed the discourse of the tenth part (Skandh) of Bhagavat in the vernacular; O Lord! I have no other desire and have only the zeal for the war fought on the basis of righteousness.2491.

Another clear note from the Krishna Avtar:

ਮੈਂ ਨਾ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਉਂ। ਕਿਸਨ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹਿ ਧਿਆਊਂ।

ਕਾਨਿ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋ। ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋ॥434॥ (ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਅਵਤਾਰ)

I do not adore Ganesha as being the highest and also do not meditate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Akal Purakh).434.

A similar note is found in the katha of Rama Avtar:

ਪਾਂਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ

ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋਊ ਆਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਨਯੋ।

ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ

ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ॥863॥

O God ! the day when I caught hold of your feet, I do not bring anyone else under my sight; none other is liked by me now; the Puranas and the Quran try to know Thee by the names of Ram and Rahim and talk about you through several stories, but I do not accept any of their opinions.

The four hundred and five chapters long Charitro Pakhyaan states prevalent tails of misconduct of men and women. These were penned for the purpose of ensuring that the newly initiated 'Sant Sipahis' (Saintly Warriors) do not become victim of such wrongdoing. In those days, brothels were rather popular and existed freely without interference of law or common norms. The soul purpose of writing such stories was to keep the Sikhs on the right path. For Example:

ਰੀਤਿ ਨ ਜਾਨਤ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕੀ, ਪੈਸਨ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤਿ।

ਬਿਛੂ ਬਿਸੀਅਰ ਬੇਸਵਾ, ਕਹਹੁ ਕਵਨ ਕੇ ਮੀਤ। (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 16)

(She) is not acquainted with love; her attachment remains limited to money. Has a scorpion, snake or a prostitute ever been friends with anyone?

Same teaching is again repeated in the following sentences:

ਸੁਧ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਹਮ ਧਰੀ, ਬਚਨ ਗੁਰ ਦਏ ਹਮਾਰੇ

ਪੂਤ! ਯਹੈ ਪ੍ਰਣ ਤੋਹਿ, ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਜਬ ਲਗ ਘਟਿ ਥਾਰੇ,

ਨਿਜ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਸੰਗ ਨੇਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਨੀਤ ਬਢਈਅਹੁ

ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੀ ਸੇਜ ਭੂਲਿ ਸੁਪਨੇ ਹੂੰ ਨ ਜਈਅਹੂ॥51॥

Ever since growing up, my Guru gave me the following instructions: "Son! As long as there is breath in your body, continually increase the affection with your wife and do not go into the bed of another woman even in dreams."

ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਭਜੇ ਸਹਸ ਬਾਸਵ ਭਗ ਪਾਏ

ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਭਜੇ ਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਕਾਲੰਕ ਲਗਾਏ

ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਹੇਤੁ, ਸੀਸ 'ਦਸ ਸੀਸ ਗਵਾਯੋ

ਹੋ ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੈਹਤੁ, ਕਟਕ ਕਵਰਨ ਕੋ ਘਾਯੋ॥42॥ (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 21)

Because Indra mated with another's woman, he came to bear thousands of marks of female organs. The same reason caused denigration to the moon. For sake of another's women, the Ravan also had to loose his ten heads and the same also caused devastation to the Kauravs.

ਜਨਨਿ ਜਠਰ ਮਹਿਂ ਆਇ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਹੁਤੇ ਦੁਖ ਪਾਵਹਿ

ਮੂਤ੍ਰ ਧਾਮ ਕੋ ਪਾਇ, ਕਹਹਿ ਹਮ ਭੋਮ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ

ਥੂਕ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਾ ਕੋ ਚਾਟਿ, ਕਹਿਤ ਅਧਰਾਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪਾਯੋ

ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਗਤ ਮੈਂ ਜਨਮ, ਬਿਨਾ ਜਸਦੀਸ਼ ਗਵਾਯੋ। (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 81)

One faces many pains while in the womb of his mother. By mating with a woman and licking her saliva, he claims to receive pleasures. But at the end his life is wasted in the world without meditation of God.

These teachings are asserted by almost all lecturers during Anand Karajs and never does anyone in the Sikh Sangat demonstrate any rejection upon them. It is true that some graphical words exist in these stories but they have only been used to save the Sikhs from such misconduct. Sikhs do not perform Akhand Path of these stories and neither are they read during the daily nitnem. The Bani 'Kabio Bach Benti Chaupae' which appears at the end of this Granth is however read by Sikhs for Amrit Sanchars and also during the daily nitnem. No one has ever raised questions about its authenticity. These are not merely 'stories or tails'; these are banis which entail Gurmat principals but don't need to be dissertated. There have been many who have also raised doubts on other parts of this Granth. Some state that the Dasam Granth Sahib was penned by the Darbari poets but reality is totally opposite to this. By becoming victims of such doubts, people became unsuccessful in understanding the main purpose of Guru Sahib and the 'self-acclaimed' scholars kept on uttering nonsense. Those who had not even read Dasam Granth Sahib started presenting baseless arguments against it. To realize the authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib, all readers must bring their attention to the following straight-forward points:

The Hazoori Sikhs of Guru Gobind Singh Ji who were accustomed with all aspects of his life compiled the 'Granth of the Tenth Guru' after his physical departure from this world. The letter of Bhai Mani Singh Ji also supports this fact.

All the copies (around a dozen) of Dasam Granth Sahib that were compiled during the eighteenth century contain all the above mentioned banis. There is no difference in their content.

The internal content of this Granth also proves that its author is Guru Gobind Singh Ji. In his own composition, Guru Sahib states:

ਅਬ ਮੈਂ ਆਪਨੀ ਕਥਾ ਬਖਾਨੋ। ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਜਿਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਆਨੋ। (ਬਿਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਟਕ)

Now I relate my own story of how God sent me in the world while I was absorbed in meditation.

and

ਸੇਵਕ ਸਿੱਖ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਤਾਰੀਅਹਿ। ਚੁਨਿ ਚੁਨਿ ਸ਼ਤ੍ਰ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਮਾਰੀਅਹਿ। (ਚੌਪਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ)

Cross over the world-ocean these devotees and Sikhs that belong to You. Pick up my foes and destroy them.

The language used in the Dasam Granth Sahib also explains that its author is none other than the Mahaakavi Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Guru Sahib used words such as Bhagauti, Kharag, Khag, Tegh, As, Asthuj, Khargait, Kirpan, Kaal, Mahakaal, Sarbkaal, Sarbloh, Mahaloh, etc. to refer to Akal Purakh. None of these words have been used by any of the Darbari poets. These and other similar ones appear throughout the writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

It was customary for the Darbari Kavis to start their writings by praising Guru Gobind Singh Ji but at no instance a manglacharan exists in Dasam Granth Sahib that praises a certain individual, rather Guru Gobind Singh Ji has addressed the might of Almighty God in all of his writings.

There are some Chands that appear concurrently in the Bachitar Natak and the Charitro Pakhyan. These include: "ਮੇਰੁ ਕੀਯੋ ਤਿਣ ਤੇ and ਯਾ ਕਾਗਦ ਦੀਪ ਸਬੈ ਕਰਕੈ" etc.

It was prevalent amongst the previous generation of Sikhs to revere all contents of Dasam Granth Sahib as writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This is the reason the following Panthic instruction was passed:

ਦੁਹੂੰ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਮੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋਈ। ਚੁਨ ਚੁਨ ਕੰਠ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਸੋਈ'। (ਰਹਿਤਨਾਮਾ, ਭਾਈ ਦੇਸਾ ਸਿੰਘ)

Everyday, pick and memorize the banis of the two Granths. (Rehitnama, Bhai Desa Singh)

It was according to this notion that different Chands of Dasam Granth Sahib have been popularized over time by Guru Ji's Sikhs. But the status of being the Guru rested solely with Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Just like in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, names such as Madho, Kamlapat, Gopal (Vishnu), Keshav, Syaam (Krishna), Raam, Raghunaath (Ramchandar), etc. are used; Guru Gobind Singh Ji used old and prevalent names to bring all castes and creeds together. To censure something without reading, listening or understanding is very foolish. By walking on this path, many have suffered, and at the end they have had to apologize.

The simple answer to those who question the necessity of writing about Avtars is that the Avtar Katha was written solely to awaken the spirit of the Hindus. If their idols such as Raam, Krishna, Bheem and Arjun could dare to destroy dreadful demons, they too can take part in Dharam Yudhs. And as stated earlier, the only reason behind writing stories of adulterous misconduct was to raise awareness within the newly initiated Sikhs. Furthermore, one needs to realize that if authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib was indeed questionable; its contents would have never been included in nitnem that is prescribed by the sixty year old 'Sikh Rehit Maryada'.

Another doubt that is raised upon the authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib includes the question whether Guru Gobind Singh Ji really had the time to pen down such a great amount of bani. According to historical facts that exist, Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote this Granth between 1675 and 1700, which is a period of twenty five years. It was after this time that attention of Guru Sahib remained focused towards wars and battles. Period of twenty five years is enough to work on a complication as lengthy as the Dasam Granth Sahib. Guru Sahib was the Guru; even his Sikhs such as Bhai Santokh Singh, Giani Gian Singh, and Bhai Veer Singh penned thousands of pages in a period of few years.

We also need to consider that the Avtar Katha in Dasam Granth Sahib provides priceless information on many of the ancient stories that have been included in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Dasam Granth Sahib has long been used significantly by the learnt scholars and historians. The information provided in this Granth is important to understand several aspects of Guru Granth Sahib Ji's bani. Without the guidance of this Granth, Sikhs would be misguided with the misinformation that exists about various avtars and historical epics and tails.

(Translated from ‘ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੀ ਪਰਮਾਣਿਕਤਾ’ Courtesy www.panthic.org)

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Any reference for that?

Read below to know your other answers

Authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib - Prof Piara Singh Padam

E-mail Print PDF

Authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib

Prof. Piara Singh Padam

Guru Gobind Singh Ji, the tenth heir of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, possessed great qualities of a warrior and a poet. He used the might of sword and pen equally to bring a revolution in lives of common people. Without a match, he was the ideal Guru, poet and a warrior. The 'Khande-Dhaar' Bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is so powerful that it possesses powers to turn water into Amrit and make volcanoes erupt from lifeless soil to give birth to revolutions. This is not merely an example of a fantasy; life sketch of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is full of such examples.

An example of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's warrior spirit comes from the creation of the Khalsa Panth and the bani in 'Dasam Granth Sahib' details his influential ability as a high-class poet very precisely. The Dasam Granth Sahib is a collection of various writings of the Dasam Guru which was compiled after his 'jyoti-jot' with the motivation and instructions of Mata Sundar Kaur Ji. This effort was undertaken by Bhai Mani Singh Ji's attendant scholars, including Bhai Sheea Singh Ji. The following are the prominent writings of the Dasam Granth Sahib:

Jaap Sahib, Akaal Ustat, Gyaan Parbodh, Shastar Naam-Mala, Chandi Charitrokti Bilas, Vaar Durga Ki, Bachitar Natak, Charitro Pakhyaan, Hakayat and Zafarnaama. In addition, there are 'Shabad Ragaa Ke' (shabads written in various ragas), 32 Sawaeay, Khalsa Mehima, Khyaal, Sadd and the Asfotak Chands.

The Bachitar Natak and the Charitro Pakhyaan are two most extensive banis of Dasam Granth Sahib. The Bachitar Natak narrates the tail of various ancient gods and goddesses in a modern and enthusiastic way. Terminology and wording full of bir-russ is used to help people learn appropriate lessons from lives of their idols. The banis focus chiefly on the common people so they could be influenced to take part in the revolution started by Guru Sahib. Maintaining traditions isn't very difficult, but to use these traditions to scheme for contemporary development is certainly an art. This was the main purpose of mentioning stories and tales of various gods and goddesses. Guru Gobind Singh Ji made sure that he isn't mistaken as a worshipper of demigods and he clearly denounced such worship in many places in Dasam Granth Sahib. He states that his main notion behind writing accounts of Sri Ram, Sri Krishna and

Durga is only to uplift the spirit of war in the people:

ਦਸਮ ਕਥਾ ਭਾਗੌਤ ਕੀ, ਭਾਖਾ ਕਰੀ ਬਨਾਇ,

ਅਵਰਿ ਬਾਸਨਾ ਨਾਂਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ, ਧਰਮਜੁੱਧ ਕੇ ਚਾਇ॥2491॥ (ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਅਵਤਾਰ)

I have composed the discourse of the tenth part (Skandh) of Bhagavat in the vernacular; O Lord! I have no other desire and have only the zeal for the war fought on the basis of righteousness.2491.

Another clear note from the Krishna Avtar:

ਮੈਂ ਨਾ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਉਂ। ਕਿਸਨ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹਿ ਧਿਆਊਂ।

ਕਾਨਿ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋ। ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋ॥434॥ (ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਅਵਤਾਰ)

I do not adore Ganesha as being the highest and also do not meditate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Akal Purakh).434.

A similar note is found in the katha of Rama Avtar:

ਪਾਂਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ

ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋਊ ਆਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਨਯੋ।

ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ

ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ॥863॥

O God ! the day when I caught hold of your feet, I do not bring anyone else under my sight; none other is liked by me now; the Puranas and the Quran try to know Thee by the names of Ram and Rahim and talk about you through several stories, but I do not accept any of their opinions.

The four hundred and five chapters long Charitro Pakhyaan states prevalent tails of misconduct of men and women. These were penned for the purpose of ensuring that the newly initiated 'Sant Sipahis' (Saintly Warriors) do not become victim of such wrongdoing. In those days, brothels were rather popular and existed freely without interference of law or common norms. The soul purpose of writing such stories was to keep the Sikhs on the right path. For Example:

ਰੀਤਿ ਨ ਜਾਨਤ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕੀ, ਪੈਸਨ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤਿ।

ਬਿਛੂ ਬਿਸੀਅਰ ਬੇਸਵਾ, ਕਹਹੁ ਕਵਨ ਕੇ ਮੀਤ। (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 16)

(She) is not acquainted with love; her attachment remains limited to money. Has a scorpion, snake or a prostitute ever been friends with anyone?

Same teaching is again repeated in the following sentences:

ਸੁਧ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਹਮ ਧਰੀ, ਬਚਨ ਗੁਰ ਦਏ ਹਮਾਰੇ

ਪੂਤ! ਯਹੈ ਪ੍ਰਣ ਤੋਹਿ, ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਜਬ ਲਗ ਘਟਿ ਥਾਰੇ,

ਨਿਜ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਸੰਗ ਨੇਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਨੀਤ ਬਢਈਅਹੁ

ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੀ ਸੇਜ ਭੂਲਿ ਸੁਪਨੇ ਹੂੰ ਨ ਜਈਅਹੂ॥51॥

Ever since growing up, my Guru gave me the following instructions: "Son! As long as there is breath in your body, continually increase the affection with your wife and do not go into the bed of another woman even in dreams."

ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਭਜੇ ਸਹਸ ਬਾਸਵ ਭਗ ਪਾਏ

ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਭਜੇ ਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਕਾਲੰਕ ਲਗਾਏ

ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਹੇਤੁ, ਸੀਸ 'ਦਸ ਸੀਸ ਗਵਾਯੋ

ਹੋ ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੈਹਤੁ, ਕਟਕ ਕਵਰਨ ਕੋ ਘਾਯੋ॥42॥ (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 21)

Because Indra mated with another's woman, he came to bear thousands of marks of female organs. The same reason caused denigration to the moon. For sake of another's women, the Ravan also had to loose his ten heads and the same also caused devastation to the Kauravs.

ਜਨਨਿ ਜਠਰ ਮਹਿਂ ਆਇ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਹੁਤੇ ਦੁਖ ਪਾਵਹਿ

ਮੂਤ੍ਰ ਧਾਮ ਕੋ ਪਾਇ, ਕਹਹਿ ਹਮ ਭੋਮ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ

ਥੂਕ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਾ ਕੋ ਚਾਟਿ, ਕਹਿਤ ਅਧਰਾਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪਾਯੋ

ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਗਤ ਮੈਂ ਜਨਮ, ਬਿਨਾ ਜਸਦੀਸ਼ ਗਵਾਯੋ। (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 81)

One faces many pains while in the womb of his mother. By mating with a woman and licking her saliva, he claims to receive pleasures. But at the end his life is wasted in the world without meditation of God.

These teachings are asserted by almost all lecturers during Anand Karajs and never does anyone in the Sikh Sangat demonstrate any rejection upon them. It is true that some graphical words exist in these stories but they have only been used to save the Sikhs from such misconduct. Sikhs do not perform Akhand Path of these stories and neither are they read during the daily nitnem. The Bani 'Kabio Bach Benti Chaupae' which appears at the end of this Granth is however read by Sikhs for Amrit Sanchars and also during the daily nitnem. No one has ever raised questions about its authenticity. These are not merely 'stories or tails'; these are banis which entail Gurmat principals but don't need to be dissertated. There have been many who have also raised doubts on other parts of this Granth. Some state that the Dasam Granth Sahib was penned by the Darbari poets but reality is totally opposite to this. By becoming victims of such doubts, people became unsuccessful in understanding the main purpose of Guru Sahib and the 'self-acclaimed' scholars kept on uttering nonsense. Those who had not even read Dasam Granth Sahib started presenting baseless arguments against it. To realize the authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib, all readers must bring their attention to the following straight-forward points:

The Hazoori Sikhs of Guru Gobind Singh Ji who were accustomed with all aspects of his life compiled the 'Granth of the Tenth Guru' after his physical departure from this world. The letter of Bhai Mani Singh Ji also supports this fact.

All the copies (around a dozen) of Dasam Granth Sahib that were compiled during the eighteenth century contain all the above mentioned banis. There is no difference in their content.

The internal content of this Granth also proves that its author is Guru Gobind Singh Ji. In his own composition, Guru Sahib states:

ਅਬ ਮੈਂ ਆਪਨੀ ਕਥਾ ਬਖਾਨੋ। ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਜਿਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਆਨੋ। (ਬਿਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਟਕ)

Now I relate my own story of how God sent me in the world while I was absorbed in meditation.

and

ਸੇਵਕ ਸਿੱਖ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਤਾਰੀਅਹਿ। ਚੁਨਿ ਚੁਨਿ ਸ਼ਤ੍ਰ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਮਾਰੀਅਹਿ। (ਚੌਪਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ)

Cross over the world-ocean these devotees and Sikhs that belong to You. Pick up my foes and destroy them.

The language used in the Dasam Granth Sahib also explains that its author is none other than the Mahaakavi Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Guru Sahib used words such as Bhagauti, Kharag, Khag, Tegh, As, Asthuj, Khargait, Kirpan, Kaal, Mahakaal, Sarbkaal, Sarbloh, Mahaloh, etc. to refer to Akal Purakh. None of these words have been used by any of the Darbari poets. These and other similar ones appear throughout the writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

It was customary for the Darbari Kavis to start their writings by praising Guru Gobind Singh Ji but at no instance a manglacharan exists in Dasam Granth Sahib that praises a certain individual, rather Guru Gobind Singh Ji has addressed the might of Almighty God in all of his writings.

There are some Chands that appear concurrently in the Bachitar Natak and the Charitro Pakhyan. These include: "ਮੇਰੁ ਕੀਯੋ ਤਿਣ ਤੇ and ਯਾ ਕਾਗਦ ਦੀਪ ਸਬੈ ਕਰਕੈ" etc.

It was prevalent amongst the previous generation of Sikhs to revere all contents of Dasam Granth Sahib as writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This is the reason the following Panthic instruction was passed:

ਦੁਹੂੰ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਮੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋਈ। ਚੁਨ ਚੁਨ ਕੰਠ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਸੋਈ'। (ਰਹਿਤਨਾਮਾ, ਭਾਈ ਦੇਸਾ ਸਿੰਘ)

Everyday, pick and memorize the banis of the two Granths. (Rehitnama, Bhai Desa Singh)

It was according to this notion that different Chands of Dasam Granth Sahib have been popularized over time by Guru Ji's Sikhs. But the status of being the Guru rested solely with Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Just like in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, names such as Madho, Kamlapat, Gopal (Vishnu), Keshav, Syaam (Krishna), Raam, Raghunaath (Ramchandar), etc. are used; Guru Gobind Singh Ji used old and prevalent names to bring all castes and creeds together. To censure something without reading, listening or understanding is very foolish. By walking on this path, many have suffered, and at the end they have had to apologize.

The simple answer to those who question the necessity of writing about Avtars is that the Avtar Katha was written solely to awaken the spirit of the Hindus. If their idols such as Raam, Krishna, Bheem and Arjun could dare to destroy dreadful demons, they too can take part in Dharam Yudhs. And as stated earlier, the only reason behind writing stories of adulterous misconduct was to raise awareness within the newly initiated Sikhs. Furthermore, one needs to realize that if authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib was indeed questionable; its contents would have never been included in nitnem that is prescribed by the sixty year old 'Sikh Rehit Maryada'.

Another doubt that is raised upon the authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib includes the question whether Guru Gobind Singh Ji really had the time to pen down such a great amount of bani. According to historical facts that exist, Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote this Granth between 1675 and 1700, which is a period of twenty five years. It was after this time that attention of Guru Sahib remained focused towards wars and battles. Period of twenty five years is enough to work on a complication as lengthy as the Dasam Granth Sahib. Guru Sahib was the Guru; even his Sikhs such as Bhai Santokh Singh, Giani Gian Singh, and Bhai Veer Singh penned thousands of pages in a period of few years.

We also need to consider that the Avtar Katha in Dasam Granth Sahib provides priceless information on many of the ancient stories that have been included in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Dasam Granth Sahib has long been used significantly by the learnt scholars and historians. The information provided in this Granth is important to understand several aspects of Guru Granth Sahib Ji's bani. Without the guidance of this Granth, Sikhs would be misguided with the misinformation that exists about various avtars and historical epics and tails.

(Translated from ‘ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੀ ਪਰਮਾਣਿਕਤਾ’ Courtesy www.panthic.org)

First, in one of your Pro Dasam Granth lobby postings you boys indicate that Piara Singh Padam has admitted that he made mistakes. Now you are going to use as guide his same writings that according to your lobby were admitted to be wrong by the writer himself.

Second, I have proved beyond any shadow of doubt that the Avtars that you boys refer to are attributed Guru Gobind Gobind Singh ji as his Auto Biography. Read Paira Singh’s views and see for yourself !

Click on the link below and go to Page 44 read the Chaupai for yourself

http://www.dasamgranth.org/institute/dasam/pdf/v1_3.pdf

Please read the translations of stanzas 3, 4, 6 & especially 7. Your claim that these Avtars are TRANSLATIONS not AUTO-BIOGRAPHICAL writings is TOTALLY annihilated here.

You can clearly read that it is attributed to Dasam Patshah Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji as his previous life experiences, which is anti Gurmat anyway.

Let me translate Stanza 7 for all readers;

Then the omnipresent Kal (Death) became kind to me, and considering me as His servant became drenched in love and helped me REMEMBER ALL OF MY RE-INCARNATIONS.

While you are at it, read Stanza 5 to see its anti Gurmat inference. Let me translate for all readers;

Kal (Death) is our Father, Devi Kalika is our Mother, my Mind is my Guru and my Desires are my Wife.

Compare this against Gurmat from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji (page 167);

thoo(n) gur pithaa thoo(n)hai gur maathaa thoo(n) gur ba(n)dhhap maeraa sakhaa sakhaae ||3||

O Guru, You are my father. O Guru, You are my mother. O Guru, You are my relative, companion and friend. ||3||

(page 94);

maeraa maath pithaa gur sathigur pooraa gur jal mil kamal vigasai jeeo ||3||

The Guru, the Perfect True Guru, is my Mother and Father. Obtaining the Water of the Guru, the lotus of my heart blossoms forth. ||3||

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" At least Jeonwala had sack to debate about topic suggested by Hari Singh."

i believe these were questions written by Kala Afgana in the Rozana paper which Baba Hari SIngh answere and not the other way around

Are you aware of why the debate on the Dasam Granth never took place, have you spoke to Prof Darshan Singh or Baba Hari SIngh Ji about it? I have, both state they did not take part in the debate due to Vedanti's Hukamnama not to debate on thsi topic.

I might not accept the Hukam of Akaal Takhat being the manmukh i am but both of these did, which says alot about Jeonwala.

Neo - go through the thread and take out what is not relevant to the topic initially started, please!

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Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all!

Participants on this forum seem to be learned people.

I hope I get my curiosity satisfied here.

Some feel they cannot read Dasam Granth because it uses words like 'Ling', 'Bhag' etc.

The same people are but convinced and dedicated readers of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. The above words are also written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

My curiosity is to know how they manage it. Please explain.

Balbir Singh

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" At least Jeonwala had sack to debate about topic suggested by Hari Singh."

i believe these were questions written by Kala Afgana in the Rozana paper which Baba Hari SIngh answere and not the other way around

Are you aware of why the debate on the Dasam Granth never took place, have you spoke to Prof Darshan Singh or Baba Hari SIngh Ji about it? I have, both state they did not take part in the debate due to Vedanti's Hukamnama not to debate on thsi topic.

Why are you making up stories anyway? Why not phone up Bhai Tehal Singh, President of the Gurdwara where this discussion / debate was going to be held, and he will tell you the TRUTH. He was the one who arranged for this to happen and was going to monitor it. He was the one who got up and asked Hari Singh to come back and join the discussion. He was the one who got up on the stage and denounced Hari Singh for stating the Jeonwala was not up to his level.

I might not accept the Hukam of Akaal Takhat being the manmukh i am but both of these did, which says alot about Jeonwala.

Neo - go through the thread and take out what is not relevant to the topic initially started, please!

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Someone accused me on jumping and not replying to everything. How can I be in 10 threads at once and answer to people just doing copy paste from all over the internet? I haven't even had time to sit with family over the past few days since I have been replying contantly. Like I said before, to eliminate this issue, live debate is the best. It won't as time consuming and no one can dodge questions. Many of my questions haven't been answered either. Guys just keep posting quotes from GUru Granth Sahib Ji without understanding them. Gurbani takes days to translate. Don't expect me to given answers here. Especially when I have to reply to all sorts of posts. This is like a parade going on here. I answer 1 thread, there are 10 posts in another to answer. Like I siad, it is very easy to copy paste quotes from Guru Granth Sahib Ji but very very hard to translate and understand properly. My final post in this thread, bring proper live debate.

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The Khalsa Fauji,

It seems like you are fatigued, need a break from all this discussion ? Understandable. Just let us know whenever you are ready. However, i just wanted to remind, it was your friend- Guru Da Sikh who came on this forum start challenging core beliefs of gurmat sidhant- Sri Dasam Granth sahib, Bhai Gurdas Ji Varan and you came along with this joined the party after clarifying that you were not Guru Da Sikh to Mithar. All of this seems some what fishy, seemed like well planned orchestrated mission to come on the forum start engaging in guerrilla debate.

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The Khalsa Fauji,

It seems like you are fatigued, need a break from all this discussion ? Understandable. Just let us know whenever you are ready. However, i just wanted to remind, it was your friend- Guru Da Sikh who came on this forum start challenging core beliefs of gurmat sidhant- Sri Dasam Granth sahib, Bhai Gurdas Ji Varan and you came along with this joined the party after clarifying that you were not Guru Da Sikh to Mithar. All of this seems some what fishy, seemed like well planned orchestrated mission to come on the forum start engaging in guerrilla debate.People don’t get fatigued when there is an intelligent debate or discussion and both sides have open mind. I can understand Khalsa Fauji’s frustration for this only one way flow of knowledge (from him to forum). I only came to know about this GURSIKH when somebody on this forum accused me & him being same individual under a different user name. Your association of him with me as a friend is absolutely true, when you view in light of Gurbani Gyan. We both respect Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, we both spend time to seek Guru`s Gyan. SO we are Sikhs of the same Complete Guru, hence Bhai too!

His intention has been to present complete explanations backed by Shabads from Gurbani. On the other hand your Pro Dasam Granth lobby (PDGL) has simply questions, no answers, no intention to learn, and a BIASED administrator who still has not posted all my responses, and whatever has been posted majority of that only with MOD EDITS and a few without any mention of these MOD EDITS too!

MOD NOTE: I have looked at your posts, all were allowed save one so far, and edits were for going off topic or other forum rule violations. If you have problems with moderation, take it over PM.

I will continue to present Guru’s shabad Gyan on this website without necessarily having to answer questions from some of you with unwillingness to learn at all.

Again Khalsa Fauji ji, keep up the seva to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It doesn’t have to be necessarily on this anti-Gurmat website. There are lots of people with open minds willing to listen and follow Guru ji’s Bani.

When I see the so called debate on this website, only one scene comes to mind. And that is, a Grand Father (Khalsa Fauji) in a candy store (this website) holding on to his LITTLE grandkids (PDGL) by a finger and walking them through the store. The little kids have lots of questions and temptations for everything followed by ONE LINER questions. The wise grandfather answers in detail every question and eventually realizing after spending majority of the day in the store, that these kids are only interested in ‘luscious’ candies and NOT the knowledge from his answers so he decides to........

SO I don’t know if you can classify this debate as Guerrilla Debate, I think it most fitting from our side to classify this as Debate with Guerrillas!

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When I see the so called debate on this website, only one scene comes to mind. And that is, a Grand Father (Khalsa Fauji) in a candy store (this website) holding on to his LITTLE grandkids (PDGL) by a finger and walking them through the store. The little kids have lots of questions and temptations for everything followed by ONE LINER questions. The wise grandfather answers in detail every question and eventually realizing after spending majority of the day in the store, that these kids are only interested in ‘luscious’ candies and NOT the knowledge from his answers so he decides to........

Fouji is grandpa and all other members are kids. :LOL:

Even Lord or Gurus are addressed as parent at maximum, but Foujee is grandpa!!

And who are you? Great grandpa?

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Guru Da Sikh worte "Again Khalsa Fauji ji, keep up the seva to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji."

What do you mean seva to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, he does not even believe Raagmala to be gurbani which he has shown on the thread about mahadin and ramanand bairagee. He is a total naastic. No wonder he cannot comprehend the literary works of Guru Gobind Singh Ji when he has shankaa in his Guru.

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Guru Da Sikh worte "Again Khalsa Fauji ji, keep up the seva to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji."

What do you mean seva to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, he does not even believe Raagmala to be gurbani which he has shown on the thread about mahadin and ramanand bairagee. He is a total naastic. No wonder he cannot comprehend the literary works of Guru Gobind Singh Ji when he has shankaa in his Guru.

I call GurSikhs like him as very awakened & learned Sikhs. If you would have read on the following link (http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/1430.html) all notes written by Prof. Sahib Singh ji, you would have learned that even the person who spent his entire life analyzing Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to extract the Gurmat Gyan for uneducated folks like all of us, then you wouldn’t post your personal views as accusations against Khalsa Fauji.

Being an alert Sikh doesn’t always mean being suspicious (shankawadi Sikh). On the other hand, you have seen every one of Khalsa Fauji’s posts backed up by Gurbani Gyan as suspicious. To me it seems, that you are the one with Shanka about the Sampooran Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji because you are having to go outside of it to get the ‘complete knwoledge’.

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Fouji is grandpa and all other members are kids. :LOL:

Even Lord or Gurus are addressed as parent at maximum, but Foujee is grandpa!!

And who are you? Great grandpa?

Tera tan akl da bhanda hi tutia paya?

Posting replies to your questions is a waste of time. You are nothing but a confused individual.

Read the response CAREFULLY, it refers to a SCENE to portray what is happening on this website.

However, I am old enough to be a great grandpa for most of you, intellectually speaking. Do you respect grandpas?

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Any reference for that?

Read below to know your other answers

Authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib - Prof Piara Singh Padam

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Authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib

Prof. Piara Singh Padam

Guru Gobind Singh Ji, the tenth heir of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, possessed great qualities of a warrior and a poet. He used the might of sword and pen equally to bring a revolution in lives of common people. Without a match, he was the ideal Guru, poet and a warrior. The 'Khande-Dhaar' Bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is so powerful that it possesses powers to turn water into Amrit and make volcanoes erupt from lifeless soil to give birth to revolutions. This is not merely an example of a fantasy; life sketch of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is full of such examples.

An example of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's warrior spirit comes from the creation of the Khalsa Panth and the bani in 'Dasam Granth Sahib' details his influential ability as a high-class poet very precisely. The Dasam Granth Sahib is a collection of various writings of the Dasam Guru which was compiled after his 'jyoti-jot' with the motivation and instructions of Mata Sundar Kaur Ji. This effort was undertaken by Bhai Mani Singh Ji's attendant scholars, including Bhai Sheea Singh Ji. The following are the prominent writings of the Dasam Granth Sahib:

Jaap Sahib, Akaal Ustat, Gyaan Parbodh, Shastar Naam-Mala, Chandi Charitrokti Bilas, Vaar Durga Ki, Bachitar Natak, Charitro Pakhyaan, Hakayat and Zafarnaama. In addition, there are 'Shabad Ragaa Ke' (shabads written in various ragas), 32 Sawaeay, Khalsa Mehima, Khyaal, Sadd and the Asfotak Chands.

The Bachitar Natak and the Charitro Pakhyaan are two most extensive banis of Dasam Granth Sahib. The Bachitar Natak narrates the tail of various ancient gods and goddesses in a modern and enthusiastic way. Terminology and wording full of bir-russ is used to help people learn appropriate lessons from lives of their idols. The banis focus chiefly on the common people so they could be influenced to take part in the revolution started by Guru Sahib. Maintaining traditions isn't very difficult, but to use these traditions to scheme for contemporary development is certainly an art. This was the main purpose of mentioning stories and tales of various gods and goddesses. Guru Gobind Singh Ji made sure that he isn't mistaken as a worshipper of demigods and he clearly denounced such worship in many places in Dasam Granth Sahib. He states that his main notion behind writing accounts of Sri Ram, Sri Krishna and

Durga is only to uplift the spirit of war in the people:

ਦਸਮ ਕਥਾ ਭਾਗੌਤ ਕੀ, ਭਾਖਾ ਕਰੀ ਬਨਾਇ,

ਅਵਰਿ ਬਾਸਨਾ ਨਾਂਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ, ਧਰਮਜੁੱਧ ਕੇ ਚਾਇ॥2491॥ (ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਅਵਤਾਰ)

I have composed the discourse of the tenth part (Skandh) of Bhagavat in the vernacular; O Lord! I have no other desire and have only the zeal for the war fought on the basis of righteousness.2491.

Another clear note from the Krishna Avtar:

ਮੈਂ ਨਾ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਉਂ। ਕਿਸਨ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹਿ ਧਿਆਊਂ।

ਕਾਨਿ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋ। ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋ॥434॥ (ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਅਵਤਾਰ)

I do not adore Ganesha as being the highest and also do not meditate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Akal Purakh).434.

A similar note is found in the katha of Rama Avtar:

ਪਾਂਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ

ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋਊ ਆਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਨਯੋ।

ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ

ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ॥863॥

O God ! the day when I caught hold of your feet, I do not bring anyone else under my sight; none other is liked by me now; the Puranas and the Quran try to know Thee by the names of Ram and Rahim and talk about you through several stories, but I do not accept any of their opinions.

The four hundred and five chapters long Charitro Pakhyaan states prevalent tails of misconduct of men and women. These were penned for the purpose of ensuring that the newly initiated 'Sant Sipahis' (Saintly Warriors) do not become victim of such wrongdoing. In those days, brothels were rather popular and existed freely without interference of law or common norms. The soul purpose of writing such stories was to keep the Sikhs on the right path. For Example:

ਰੀਤਿ ਨ ਜਾਨਤ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕੀ, ਪੈਸਨ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤਿ।

ਬਿਛੂ ਬਿਸੀਅਰ ਬੇਸਵਾ, ਕਹਹੁ ਕਵਨ ਕੇ ਮੀਤ। (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 16)

(She) is not acquainted with love; her attachment remains limited to money. Has a scorpion, snake or a prostitute ever been friends with anyone?

Same teaching is again repeated in the following sentences:

ਸੁਧ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਹਮ ਧਰੀ, ਬਚਨ ਗੁਰ ਦਏ ਹਮਾਰੇ

ਪੂਤ! ਯਹੈ ਪ੍ਰਣ ਤੋਹਿ, ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਜਬ ਲਗ ਘਟਿ ਥਾਰੇ,

ਨਿਜ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਸੰਗ ਨੇਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਨੀਤ ਬਢਈਅਹੁ

ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੀ ਸੇਜ ਭੂਲਿ ਸੁਪਨੇ ਹੂੰ ਨ ਜਈਅਹੂ॥51॥

Ever since growing up, my Guru gave me the following instructions: "Son! As long as there is breath in your body, continually increase the affection with your wife and do not go into the bed of another woman even in dreams."

ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਭਜੇ ਸਹਸ ਬਾਸਵ ਭਗ ਪਾਏ

ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਭਜੇ ਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਕਾਲੰਕ ਲਗਾਏ

ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਹੇਤੁ, ਸੀਸ 'ਦਸ ਸੀਸ ਗਵਾਯੋ

ਹੋ ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੈਹਤੁ, ਕਟਕ ਕਵਰਨ ਕੋ ਘਾਯੋ॥42॥ (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 21)

Because Indra mated with another's woman, he came to bear thousands of marks of female organs. The same reason caused denigration to the moon. For sake of another's women, the Ravan also had to loose his ten heads and the same also caused devastation to the Kauravs.

ਜਨਨਿ ਜਠਰ ਮਹਿਂ ਆਇ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਹੁਤੇ ਦੁਖ ਪਾਵਹਿ

ਮੂਤ੍ਰ ਧਾਮ ਕੋ ਪਾਇ, ਕਹਹਿ ਹਮ ਭੋਮ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ

ਥੂਕ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਾ ਕੋ ਚਾਟਿ, ਕਹਿਤ ਅਧਰਾਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪਾਯੋ

ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਗਤ ਮੈਂ ਜਨਮ, ਬਿਨਾ ਜਸਦੀਸ਼ ਗਵਾਯੋ। (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 81)

One faces many pains while in the womb of his mother. By mating with a woman and licking her saliva, he claims to receive pleasures. But at the end his life is wasted in the world without meditation of God.

These teachings are asserted by almost all lecturers during Anand Karajs and never does anyone in the Sikh Sangat demonstrate any rejection upon them. It is true that some graphical words exist in these stories but they have only been used to save the Sikhs from such misconduct. Sikhs do not perform Akhand Path of these stories and neither are they read during the daily nitnem. The Bani 'Kabio Bach Benti Chaupae' which appears at the end of this Granth is however read by Sikhs for Amrit Sanchars and also during the daily nitnem. No one has ever raised questions about its authenticity. These are not merely 'stories or tails'; these are banis which entail Gurmat principals but don't need to be dissertated. There have been many who have also raised doubts on other parts of this Granth. Some state that the Dasam Granth Sahib was penned by the Darbari poets but reality is totally opposite to this. By becoming victims of such doubts, people became unsuccessful in understanding the main purpose of Guru Sahib and the 'self-acclaimed' scholars kept on uttering nonsense. Those who had not even read Dasam Granth Sahib started presenting baseless arguments against it. To realize the authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib, all readers must bring their attention to the following straight-forward points:

The Hazoori Sikhs of Guru Gobind Singh Ji who were accustomed with all aspects of his life compiled the 'Granth of the Tenth Guru' after his physical departure from this world. The letter of Bhai Mani Singh Ji also supports this fact.

All the copies (around a dozen) of Dasam Granth Sahib that were compiled during the eighteenth century contain all the above mentioned banis. There is no difference in their content.

The internal content of this Granth also proves that its author is Guru Gobind Singh Ji. In his own composition, Guru Sahib states:

ਅਬ ਮੈਂ ਆਪਨੀ ਕਥਾ ਬਖਾਨੋ। ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਜਿਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਆਨੋ। (ਬਿਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਟਕ)

Now I relate my own story of how God sent me in the world while I was absorbed in meditation.

and

ਸੇਵਕ ਸਿੱਖ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਤਾਰੀਅਹਿ। ਚੁਨਿ ਚੁਨਿ ਸ਼ਤ੍ਰ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਮਾਰੀਅਹਿ। (ਚੌਪਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ)

Cross over the world-ocean these devotees and Sikhs that belong to You. Pick up my foes and destroy them.

The language used in the Dasam Granth Sahib also explains that its author is none other than the Mahaakavi Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Guru Sahib used words such as Bhagauti, Kharag, Khag, Tegh, As, Asthuj, Khargait, Kirpan, Kaal, Mahakaal, Sarbkaal, Sarbloh, Mahaloh, etc. to refer to Akal Purakh. None of these words have been used by any of the Darbari poets. These and other similar ones appear throughout the writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

It was customary for the Darbari Kavis to start their writings by praising Guru Gobind Singh Ji but at no instance a manglacharan exists in Dasam Granth Sahib that praises a certain individual, rather Guru Gobind Singh Ji has addressed the might of Almighty God in all of his writings.

There are some Chands that appear concurrently in the Bachitar Natak and the Charitro Pakhyan. These include: "ਮੇਰੁ ਕੀਯੋ ਤਿਣ ਤੇ and ਯਾ ਕਾਗਦ ਦੀਪ ਸਬੈ ਕਰਕੈ" etc.

It was prevalent amongst the previous generation of Sikhs to revere all contents of Dasam Granth Sahib as writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This is the reason the following Panthic instruction was passed:

ਦੁਹੂੰ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਮੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋਈ। ਚੁਨ ਚੁਨ ਕੰਠ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਸੋਈ'। (ਰਹਿਤਨਾਮਾ, ਭਾਈ ਦੇਸਾ ਸਿੰਘ)

Everyday, pick and memorize the banis of the two Granths. (Rehitnama, Bhai Desa Singh)

It was according to this notion that different Chands of Dasam Granth Sahib have been popularized over time by Guru Ji's Sikhs. But the status of being the Guru rested solely with Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Just like in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, names such as Madho, Kamlapat, Gopal (Vishnu), Keshav, Syaam (Krishna), Raam, Raghunaath (Ramchandar), etc. are used; Guru Gobind Singh Ji used old and prevalent names to bring all castes and creeds together. To censure something without reading, listening or understanding is very foolish. By walking on this path, many have suffered, and at the end they have had to apologize.

The simple answer to those who question the necessity of writing about Avtars is that the Avtar Katha was written solely to awaken the spirit of the Hindus. If their idols such as Raam, Krishna, Bheem and Arjun could dare to destroy dreadful demons, they too can take part in Dharam Yudhs. And as stated earlier, the only reason behind writing stories of adulterous misconduct was to raise awareness within the newly initiated Sikhs. Furthermore, one needs to realize that if authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib was indeed questionable; its contents would have never been included in nitnem that is prescribed by the sixty year old 'Sikh Rehit Maryada'.

Another doubt that is raised upon the authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib includes the question whether Guru Gobind Singh Ji really had the time to pen down such a great amount of bani. According to historical facts that exist, Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote this Granth between 1675 and 1700, which is a period of twenty five years. It was after this time that attention of Guru Sahib remained focused towards wars and battles. Period of twenty five years is enough to work on a complication as lengthy as the Dasam Granth Sahib. Guru Sahib was the Guru; even his Sikhs such as Bhai Santokh Singh, Giani Gian Singh, and Bhai Veer Singh penned thousands of pages in a period of few years.

We also need to consider that the Avtar Katha in Dasam Granth Sahib provides priceless information on many of the ancient stories that have been included in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Dasam Granth Sahib has long been used significantly by the learnt scholars and historians. The information provided in this Granth is important to understand several aspects of Guru Granth Sahib Ji's bani. Without the guidance of this Granth, Sikhs would be misguided with the misinformation that exists about various avtars and historical epics and tails.

(Translated from ‘ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੀ ਪਰਮਾਣਿਕਤਾ’ Courtesy www.panthic.org)

Jesus Christ, how can you trust such a trashy site like Panthic.org. The News of The World of the Sikh world. They spew so much bile and garbage there, it is difficult to separate truth from fact. :huh:

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Guru da sikh:

im looking for katha on those stanzas you mentioned.. your interpretation is a bit suspecious thought as none of the stanzas yoou mention says "Main, hum" etc whereas the others do say main etc.. this means there must be a distinction to what is Maharaj and what is generel speech. they way i read it is that Maharaj says he will narrate everything he witnessed in the past... and then it makes sense that he talks about the avatars in the third person... Apni Katha is in first person..

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They have only translated it, the article is by Piara Singh Padam.

I wouldn't trust those fellas at panthic.org to boil water for me, in case the burn it! Forget posting Dr Padam's translation. Sorry, it is just the way I feel.

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Guru Da Sikh you wrote

"I call GurSikhs like him as very awakened & learned Sikhs. If you would have read on the following link (http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/1430.html) all notes written by Prof. Sahib Singh ji, you would have learned that even the person who spent his entire life analyzing Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to extract the Gurmat Gyan for uneducated folks like all of us, then you wouldn’t post your personal views as accusations against Khalsa Fauji.

Being an alert Sikh doesn’t always mean being suspicious (shankawadi Sikh). On the other hand, you have seen every one of Khalsa Fauji’s posts backed up by Gurbani Gyan as suspicious. To me it seems, that you are the one with Shanka about the Sampooran Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji because you are having to go outside of it to get the ‘complete knwoledge’."

Khalsa Fauji has stated that Sahib Singhs Teeka even though you live and die by it is with faults. The fact that Sahib Singh did not understand the Raagmal and did not post any of the 60 antreev arths shows his 35 years of scholarship on Sri Guru GRanth Sahib Ji.

If you believe in the Sri Guru Granth Shaib Ji do you not believe in all the vaaks from Ik Oankar to Athar Das Bees or do you also pick and choose there also?

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Guru Da Sikh you wrote

"I call GurSikhs like him as very awakened & learned Sikhs. If you would have read on the following link (http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/1430.html) all notes written by Prof. Sahib Singh ji, you would have learned that even the person who spent his entire life analyzing Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to extract the Gurmat Gyan for uneducated folks like all of us, then you wouldn’t post your personal views as accusations against Khalsa Fauji.

Being an alert Sikh doesn’t always mean being suspicious (shankawadi Sikh). On the other hand, you have seen every one of Khalsa Fauji’s posts backed up by Gurbani Gyan as suspicious. To me it seems, that you are the one with Shanka about the Sampooran Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji because you are having to go outside of it to get the ‘complete knwoledge’."

Khalsa Fauji has stated that Sahib Singhs Teeka even though you live and die by it is with faults. The fact that Sahib Singh did not understand the Raagmal and did not post any of the 60 antreev arths shows his 35 years of scholarship on Sri Guru GRanth Sahib Ji.

If you believe in the Sri Guru Granth Shaib Ji do you not believe in all the vaaks from Ik Oankar to Athar Das Bees or do you also pick and choose there also? I wouldn’t want Convicted Rapists ‘Sants’ like Dhanwant Singh, Maan Singh Pehove Wala, telling me what those Anthreev Bahv Arth are? They will probably combine ‘Gurbani’ and make a ‘cocktail’ with Kok Shatsar from Dasam Granth (as per you boys previous postings) and present to young females in Sangat. I can only imagine how many of the female attendees in the ‘sangat’ will get ‘bache di daat’!

Here is the setting starting in early 1800s to 1960s: Gurudwaras have just been liberated from Mahant Naranu gangs and continued attacks on Sikhs from Nirmlaye & Udassyea. Sikhs just starting to learn about Gurmat Gyan since the only thing that has been preached in Gurdwaras is Bipran ki Reet. Anybody who makes a stand on Gurmat Sidhant and opposes ‘Dasam Granth’ style Mahants gets thrown out of the Panth with a politically motivated Hukamnama. Just like today, the political strength was in the grasp of these Derawadis, Taksalis, ‘Sants’, Mahants, ‘BrahmGyanis’ etc. You really think the ‘Panth’ contaminated with these leeches would have the stomach to digest Anthreev Bhav Arth at that time. If he had done so, he along with his work would have been burned by these Derawadis. So what Prof. Sahib Singh ji did was to do viakraan with key concepts presented with Bhav Arth. Remember, if you read the foreword, he never claimed to be perfect, like you boys do today.

It’s not perfect but it’s the best analysis we got today. I wouldn’t want Rapists ‘Sants’ like Dhanwant Singh, Maan Singh Pehove Wala, telling me what those Anthreev Bahv Arth are? They will probably combine ‘Gurbani’ and make a ‘cocktail’ with Kok Shatsar from Dasam Granth (as per you boys previous postings) and present to young females in Sangat. I can only imagine how many of the female attendees in the ‘sangat’ will get ‘bache di daat’!

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Tera tan akl da bhanda hi tutia paya?

Posting replies to your questions is a waste of time. You are nothing but a confused individual.

Read the response CAREFULLY, it refers to a SCENE to portray what is happening on this website.

However, I am old enough to be a great grandpa for most of you, intellectually speaking. Do you respect grandpas?

ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਅਖੌਤੀ ਸਿੱਖਾ,

ਕਿਹੜੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਸਿੱਖ ਹੈਂ ਤੂੰ?

ਮੇਰੇ ਸਤਗੁਰੂ ਨੇ ਤਾਂ ਬਾਣੀ ਉਚਾਰ ਕੇ ਵੀ ਨਿਮਰਤਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਛੱਡੀ, ਤੂੰ ਦੋ ਸਟੀਕਾਂ ਪੜ ਕੇ ਹੀ ਹੰਕਾਰ ਗਿਆ ਤੇ ਆਪਦੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਦਾ ਪੜਦਾਦਾ ਦੱਸਣ ਲੱਗ ਪਿਆ।

ਗਿਆਨ ਦਾ ਤਾਂ ਪਤਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਤੂੰ ਕੀ ਲਿਆ, ਹੰਕਾਰ ਬਥੇਰਾ ਖੱਟ ਲਿਆ। ਇਹੀ ਤੇਰੀ ਬੇੜੀ ਡੋਬੂ।

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They have some (mod edit) people on sikh philosophy net who are die hard chelas of kaal afghana. Those people will never let you have a good debate.

Have a debate at Sikh philosophy. You gotta be kidding me. The mod's there like Randip will delete anything that doesn't go with their twisted way of thinking. The Vaheguruseekr guy then there latest vgrewal guy are completely anti-Gurmat.

Plus they have anti-gurmat ads on that place. I talked to the Admin about it and they don't do anything about it. They act like it's not there. Bunch of hypocrites there.

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