Muslim Argument, please help :S

[Guest]

Ok, I have a question which is really confusing me, I hope someone can help!

If we believe that God is ALL-JUST towards His creation, and shows no injustice towards any of His creation, and also believe in reincarnation, then how do we explain the beginning? If the human form is desired and the highest reward and oppurtunity to gain liberation from the cycle of birth and death, then if God is ALL Just towards all his creatures, were they all created and given human form when creation began? If not, and some were in animal forms, isn't this injustice towards those souls?

It is an argument a Muslim is using to prove reincarnation wrong, I'm completely stumped!

[Mr §ingh]

on

faithfreedom.org

i Found a SIikh brother posting this.

->

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sikhism supports evolution, something which every major religion opposes, especially the Semitic ones! Here are the quotes from the SGGS which support evolution!

"The Lord Himself directs the evolution of the world" - SGGS p. 721

"Shattering and breaking apart, He creates and re-creates; creating, He shatters again. He builds up what He has demolished, and demolishes what He has built." - SGGS, p. 936

"Nights, days, weeks and seasons; wind, water, fire and the nether regions—in the midst of these, He established the earth as a home for Dharma. Upon it, He placed the various species of beings. Their names are uncounted and endless." - SGGS p. 8

"There are beings and creatures in the water and on the land, in the worlds and universes, form upon form." - SGGS, p. 467

There are plenty more quotes, please download the SGGS at: http://www.geocities.com/sikhismnow and see for yourself. Thanks.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

and hey-..

also check out :

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=1085

read Mr "NogroupSingh"'s post

very usful

//bhulla chukka maaf

[Guest]

ask the muslim guy - there are muslims who are born without legs and are highly disabled, they are born into muslim familys - isnt this unjust for them too??.. if they believe that in incarnation, what have these people done to deserve this disability?? :twisted:

n one more thing - muslims believe in judgement day - that one day (no one knows when :twisted: ) mohammed will raise up all dead muslims buried in the ground and make them fight against the kafirs (infidel unbelievers) isnt this a form of reincarnation???? :roll:

[girlUK]

hmmm very trueat steele bangle.

1 thing i dont understand is how people can believe that the world started thru adam and eve...whom grew outta a tree???? (well something along those lines)

[Guest]

hmmm very trueat steele bangle.

1 thing i dont understand is how people can believe that the world started thru adam and eve...whom grew outta a tree???? (well something along those lines)

See there i truly beleive the mythology of hinduism on creation of the world-

----------------

Source: http://www.angelfire.com/in/sidhu/juga.html

4 JUG

SATJUG SAB SANTOKH SRERAH PAG CHAREH DHARAM DHIAN JEO…..

TEATEH JUG AEAH ANTAR JHOR PAEAH JATH SANJAM KARM KEMAEAH JEO…..

JUG DUAPAR AEAH BHARAM BHARMAEAH HAR GHOPI KAAN UPAEAH JEO….

KALJUG HAR KEAH PAG TREAH KHISKEAH PAG CHOUTHA TIKHA TEAKAEAH JHIO….

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SATJUG MEAH CHARO CHARAN TREATEH THIN RHAEAH DUAPAR MEAH DHOU REAH KAAL IKH CHARAN TEKEAH

(suraj parkash)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SATJUG SAT TREATEH JAGHI DWAPUR PUJA CHAR

THINO JUG THINO DHIRREH KAAL KIWAL NAAM ADARH

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SATJUG TEAH MANEOH SHALIO BAAL BHAVAN BHEAEOH

TRETAY TEAH MANEOAN RAAM RAGHUWANS KEHAEOH

DWAPUR KRISHAN MURARH KANS KIRDHARATH KHEOH

UGARSEANH KAU RAAJ ABEAH BHAGTAH JAAN DEOH

KALJUG PARMANH NANAK GURH ANGAD AMAR KEHAEOH

SRI GURU RAAJ ABEAHCHUL ATTAL ADAH PURKH FARMAEOH.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SATJUG RATH SANTOKH KAH…..

TRETEH RATH JATI KAH…..

DWAPAR RATH…..

KALJUG RATH AGAN KAH KURH AGAI RATHWAI.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SATJUG SATGUR VAYASDEV VAUVAH VISHNA NAAM JAPAVAI

TRETEH SATGUR RAAM JI…..

DWAPAR SATGUR HARI KRISHAN …..

KALJUG NANAK GUR GOVIND…..CHAREH AKSHAR IKH KAAR WAHEGURU GURMANTAR JAPAVEH.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji many a times guru ji mentions about the satjug treatehjug ,dwapurjug,and kaljug.Bani of Bhai Gurdass ji also mentiones about the four jugas.Direct translation into english it means golden age ,silver age, bronze age, iron or dark age.These present age is the age of darkness .Which accoding to some historians started on February 18, 3102 B.C according to the Gregorian calendar.

The ancient scriptures view history as cyclical in character, with vast repeating series of ages. Each age has its own particular qualities. The ancient scriptures describe a number of cycles within cycles. Discussions of these cycles can become confusing because different cycles are measured in different types of units. For example, the cycles are often described in units of deva(demigods) years, each of which equals 360 human years.

The following description starts with the smaller cycles and works up to the larger ones. The length of each cycle is given in ordinary human (earth) years, as well other units where appropriate. Large numbers are described using the conventions of American English: thus, a million is a thousand thousand, a billion is a thousand million, a trillion is a thousand billion.

This is based on numerous sources, which are given in the "References" section at the end of this document.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maha Yuga

The smallest cycle is called a maha yuga. A maha yuga is 4,320,000 human years. Each maha yuga is subdivided into the following four ages, whose lengths follow a ratio of 4:3:2:1:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Satya Yuga

This first age is 1,728,000 human years. Also known as the Golden Age or age of Truth. The qualities of this age are: virtue reigns supreme; human stature is 21 cubits; lifespan is a lakh of years, and death occurs only when willed.Dharma in this age had four legs. Gurbani :”Satjug teah maneaho chaleoh balbavan beahioh.” In the satjug the supreme Lord appeared as Balbavan(dwarf incarnate) .Bhagat dhru ji Bhagat pharlad ji appeared in the satjug.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Treta Yuga

This second age is 1,296,000 human years. Also known as the Silver Age. The qualities of this age are: the climate is three quarters virtue and one quarter sin; human stature is 14 cubits; lifespan is 10,000 years.Dharma in this age had three legs. Gurbani:” Treath teah maneaho raam raghuwans khehaeo” In the treathjug the supreme lord appeared as Sri Raamchand in the Raghu (Sun)Dynasty. note: the ten gurus are from the dynasty of Sri Raamchand ji maharaj, as stated by Guru Gobind Singh ji in the Vichatar Natak in Dasam Granth Sahib ji.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dvapara Yuga

This third age is 864,000 human years. Also known as the Bronze Age. The qualities of this age are: the climate is one half virtue and one half sin; lifespan is 1,000 years.Dharma in this age had 2 legs left. Gurbani:”Dawapar krishan murar kansh kirtharath kio,ugarseanh koa raaj abeah bhagtah janh deoh” In the Dvapur yug the supreme appeared as Krishan murar(Sri krishan bhagvan).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kali Yuga

The fourth and last age is 432,000 human years. Of which 5100 years have past. Also known as the Iron Age. This is the age in which we are presently living. The qualities of this age are: the climate is one quarter virtue and three quarters sin; human stature is 3.5 cubits; lifespan is 100 or 120 years.(this would continue continue to decrees) Gurbani:”Kaljug paarmanh nanak gorh angad amar kehaeo.sri guru raaj abeychal attal adah purkh farmaeoh”The supreme lord appeared as Guru nanak along with the ten gurus.note:guru nanak dev ji is predicted as the saviour of this age in the hindu scriptures at different places eg.bhavichat puran , simiritis etc. Dharma had one leg left in this age.”Dharm pankh kar udreaia”That also had flown away .”Sharm dharm deoeh pakh khloeah kurh fereah pardan veah lalo.”Sence of shame and religion is gone from this age.People have become shameless and irreligious.The only way to save oneself is to chant Harinaam.”Kalau meah raamnam hai saar”(more will be discussed in the topic on kaljug later) The creation disappears at the end of a maha juga and remains in seed form inside brahma.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brahma Days (Kalpas)note: this is refering to the brahma of this universe only.There are uncountable universes” Koth brahmand jah keah dharmsaleh” (in which there are uncountable planets and planatery systems”Patalah patal lakh agasah agas”) and uncountable Brahmas.”koth brahmeah jagh sajan laeah.”

A kalpa is a single daytime period in the life of Brahma, Japji:Ik sansari ik bhandri ik lai deban”the creator demigod. Two kalpas are a day and a night of Brahma.Each kalpa is composed of 1,000 maha yugas. A kalpa is thus equal to 4.32 billion human years.

At the end of Brahma's daytime period, the Three Planetary systems (Bhuloka, Bhuvarloka, Swarloka) and the seven underworlds (of the nagas) are temporarily dissolved (pralaya); that is, the same folks can be reincarnated when the next day of Brahma begins.Brahma creates the world again after his night.Just like one person starts his daily work after every night.Pralaya dissolves the planets until Brahma loka only.

At the end of the daytime period of Brahma, a dreadful drought occurs that lasts 100 years, (brahma’s 100 year) and all the waters are dried up. The sun changes into seven suns, and the three planetary systems (Bhurloka or solar system ,middle planetary system , Bhuvarloka or the lower planetary system , and Svarloka or higher planetary system) and the underworlds are burned bare of life. The inhabitants of Bhuvarloka and Svarkloka flee to the next higher planetary system , Maharloka, to escape the heat; and then to the next higher planetary system, Janaloka .Inhabitants of these planets or planetary systems are more advanced spiritually and materially than the middle and lower planetary systems thus with their special powers or sidhis they are able to transfer thenselfs to the higher planetary systems.Then mighty clouds form and the three planetary systems are completely flooded with water. The lord Vishnu”Ik sansari ikh bhandari” reposes on the waters in meditative rest for another whole kalpa (4.32 billion years) before renewing the creation.

The destruction that takes place at the end of a daytime of Brahma is referred to as naimittika, or occasional. The characteristic of this destruction is that the three worlds continue to exist but are made uninhabitable. The souls of individuals also continue to exist to be reincarnated in the next daytime of Brahma.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brahma Years

A year of Brahma is composed of 360 day/night cycles of Brahma, or 720 kalpas, or 8.64 billion human years.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brahma Life

The lifespan of Brahma is 100 Brahma years, or 72,000 kalpas, or 311.04 trillion human years.

At the end of the life of Brahma, all worlds are completely dissolved (mahaparloh). This is referring to only this brahmand or universe.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note :This is the life of the 4 ages which accepted by all major Sampardas of Sikh Dharma,like the Nirmalas from which Nanaksar sampardah,Rarehweleh sampardah,Mastuanehwaleh sampardah of Baba Attar Singh ji and many such shakhans of Nirmala Sampardah, Uadsis sampardah,Baba Deep Singh Sampardah of Dhamdami thaksal,Bhai Mani Singh Sampardah

REFERENCE:

- Talks of Baba Sadhu Singh ji Maharaj Nanaksar waleh(at katong temple singapore)

- Tikah of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji by Baba Kirpal Singh ji satoh wali gali

- Faridkotiah tikah.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BELOW IS SOME OF THE TERMS USED TO MEASURE IN ANCIENT INDIA,SOME OF WHICH ARE USED FREQUENTLY IN THE GURBANI.

6 an.uh. (atoms) = 1 trasaren.u

3 trasaren.u = 1 trut.i (1687.5 trut.is = 1 second)

100 trut.i = 1 vedha

3 vedha = 1 lava

3 lava = 1 nimes.a

3 nimes.as = 1 ks.an.a

5 ks.an.a = 1 kaas.t.haa

15 kaas.t.h.aa = 1 laghu(2 minutes = 1 laghu)

15 laghu = 1 naad.ikaa or 1 dan.d.a

2 dan.d.a = 1 muhuurta (48 min?)(1 ghat.ikaa = 24 minutes)

6 or 7 dan.d.a = 1/4 of a day or night

4 yaamah. or prahara = 1 day or 1 night

15 days and nights = 1 paks.ah. (fortnight)

2 paks.ah. (white and black) = 1 month (1 day and night for Pitaa planets)

2 maasah. (months) = 1 r.tuh. (season)

6 maasah. (months) = 1 solar movement (south<->north)

2 solar movements = 1 day and night for the demigods = 1 year for humans

12000 years of demigods (YOD) = 1 catuh. yuga = 4,320,000 years

4800 YOD = Satya yuga = 1,728,000 years

3600 YOD = Tretaa yuga = 1,296,000 years

2400 YOD = Dvaapara yuga = 864,000 years

1200 YOD = Kali yuga = 432,000 years

1000 catuh. yuga = 1 kalpa = 1 day of Brahmaa = 1 night of Brahmaa

14 Manus = 1 day of Brahmaa

50 Brahmaa years = 1 paraardha (currently in 2nd paraardha)

2 paraardha = lifespan of Brahmaa = 1 nimes.a of Mahaa-Visnu

There are 13 months in the Indian(vedic)calendar. The 13th month is called adhi-maasa or mala-maasa and is added ever 3rd year. (SB 3.21.18)

6*3*100*3*3*3*5*15*15*(6,7)*4*2*15*2*6*2*4320000*1000*2*15*2*6*2*100 = 293,865,615,360,000,000,000,000,000 atoms (2^26*3^14*5^16*6) to 342,843,217,920,000,000,000,000,000 atoms (2^26*3^14*5^16*7)

Assuming there are 365.25 days per year, it would mean that 5.25 days are unaccounted for per year using 6 dan.daa = 1/4 of a day. 252 dand.aa is equal to 5.25 days and in 360 days there are 360*24*2 (17,280) dand.aa.There should be 17532 dand.aa if 365.25 is an accurate term for a solar year.

Thus, multiply the first term of number of atoms by 1.0145833 or 487/480. This gives approximately 3.0*10^26 atoms. It seems that 1/2 hour should be added to the day every 10/7 of a day to keep in sync with the sun. Notes: Planets, stars, atoms, etc. all rotate in their respective orbits.

[nogroup singh]

Page 76 & 77

SIREE RAAG, FOURTH MEHL: In the first watch of the night, O my merchant friend, the Lord places you in the womb. You meditate on the Lord, and chant the Lord's Name, O my merchant friend. You contemplate the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. Chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, and meditating on it within the fire of the womb, your life is sustained by dwelling on the Naam. You are born and you come out, and your mother and father are delighted to see your face. Remember the One, O mortal, to whom the child belongs. As Gurmukh, reflect upon Him within your heart. Says Nanak, O mortal, in the first watch of the night, dwell upon the Lord, who shall shower you with His Grace. || 1 || In the second watch of the night, O my merchant friend, the mind is attached to the love of duality. Mother and father hug you close in their embrace, claiming, He is mine, he is mine; so is the child brought up, O my merchant friend. Your mother and father constantly hug you close in their embrace; in their minds, they believe that you will provide for them and support them. The fool does not know the One who gives; instead, he clings to the gift. Rare is the Gurmukh who reflects upon, meditates upon, and within his mind, is lovingly attached to the Lord. Says Nanak, in the second watch of the night, O mortal, death never devours you. || 2 || In the third watch of the night, O my merchant friend, your mind is entangled in worldly and household affairs. You think of wealth, and gather wealth, O my merchant friend, but you do not contemplate the Lord or the Lord's Name.You never dwell upon the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, who will be your only Helper and Support in the end. This wealth, property and Maya are false. In the end, you must leave these, and depart in sorrow. Those whom the Lord, in His Mercy, unites with the Guru, reflect upon the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. Says Nanak, in the third watch of the night, O mortal, they go, and are united with the Lord. || 3 || In the fourth watch of the night, O my merchant friend, the Lord announces the time of departure. Serve the Perfect True Guru, O my merchant friend; your entire life-night is passing away. Serve the Lord each and every instantódo not delay! You shall become eternal throughout the ages. Enjoy ecstasy forever with the Lord, and do away with the pains of birth and death. Know that there is no difference between the Guru, the True Guru, and your Lord and Master. Meeting with Him, take pleasure in the Lordís devotional service. Says Nanak, O mortal, in the fourth watch of the night, the life-night of the devotee is fruitful. || 4 || 1 || 3 ||

[Mugermach Singh]

this may now answer all the questions you asked, but it does prove reincarnation exists.

Ask him is god immortal?

he, being a muslim will say Yes.

Then ask him, do you belive that the soul will go somewhere in some form. (i think muslims belive that after they are buried something happens to their soul. will someelse clear this up as i have little knowledge on this.)

He should say Yes. otherwise whats the point of being buried!!

Ok, since the soul does not die, then it can be called Immortal?

he will have to agree, because he too belives that the soul does not die.

Then ask him, If the sould does not die, then tell me where you came from????

He being a muslim, will say Allah.

Ok, wahegure, allah did send the all souls.

Here is the cruch and the main proof.

Now we have two possible theories. Either Allah is making new souls and sending them to the earth, in this case, he is making a new moons ne stars new sun, new earth etc.

(If he has any sort of a brain, he will disagree with this)

Then the other possible theory is that god recycles the moons stars and earth. And therefore recycles the Soul, and another word for recycle is.....

yep, you guessed it. Reincarnation.

This proves that reincarnation exists.

I am working on the other problems. pls give me a little time.

[girlUK]

good stuff@ the above posts.

there was once a muslim guy who argued that those who cremate dead bodies are 'stupid' and that bodies should be buried. In response to this a friend of mine pointed out a verse in the GGS mentioning that bodies that are buried, eventually turn to clay (decompose).hence eventually are burned (use of clay making)..so at some point, their bodies will be burnt too (cremated). (pls accept my apologies for not quoting the verse, i shall try to find it later :? )

and i agree wih N30, that sikhism and hinduism are more realistic (truth- and common sense) and relate a lot more to science compared to many other thoughts. Sikhism is of course its own religion, and it basically carries people through time of Kalyug, hence a modern religion, but then again..its a religion that existed from the beginning....

[Guest]

Wicked theory Mugermach Singh

You are pure pappi arent you??

jokes

[Mugermach Singh]

me!!!! pappi!!!!,

i dont know what you mean. im a chugha mundha (when i want to be).

[Mugermach Singh]

If the human form is desired and the highest reward and oppurtunity to gain liberation from the cycle of birth and death, then if God is ALL Just towards all his creatures, were they all created and given human form when creation began? If not, and some were in animal forms, isn't this injustice towards those souls?

doesnt prove that reincarnation doesnt exist because of my explanation above.

However it does prove that God Likes some better than others. :twisted: . Now most of you should disagree with this (if not, got your local hospital and say you birth was an accident, i want to be put down (that is a joke, don't do it really)). You should agree that god likes everybody equally. But we all dont love god in the same (s)he loves us. Some of us move closer to god, others away. (Salok in JapJi.)

This doesnt really answer the question. :roll:

were they all created and given human form when creation began? If not, and some were in animal forms, isn't this injustice towards those souls?

but it does prove that God has a sense of humour.

[girlUK]

me!!!! pappi!!!!,

i dont know what you mean. im a chugha mundha (when i want to be).

haha remember that song 'papa dont preach' by madonna.....

well now it will be

'PAPPI dont preach'....

ahh ok..i thought it was funny

[Gupt Singh]

i see no "injustice" in everyone starting out as animals.

every soul has gone thru huge amounts of pain as animal forms. if some have gone thru more because htey started as a lower life form waheguru can reincarnate them as a human again to "balance" it out. its not exactly hard. this muslim is making out that god is some kind of fool who cant think of a way to balance out his own system.

the only injustice is an infinite hellfire and punishment for finite bad actions.

[Guest]

Waheguru Jee Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Jee Kee Fateh

Thanks guys, all your posts helped. Mr Singh - some good quotes. Steel Bangle - I agree, the raising thing is a form of reincarnation in itself, never thought of it like that before? In fact this is what some of their so called 'scholars' were saying on a Islamic channel in Leeds.

N30 Singh Ji - Heavy post Although the maths went beyond me, I get you when you say Hinduism has a pretty good description about reincarnation, although I have heard the concept is different in Sikhism, in that their system is about attaining higher caste status in their next life, whereas Sikhism places emphasis on the 'human' birth as being essential for attaining enlightment.

No Group Singh - Yeah, I heard that Shabad being used by Giani Sant Singh Maskeen Ji just today in relation to reincarnation, pretty interesting, but then that's exactly what you expect from him!

Mugermach Bhaji - What can I say, lol. You cracked me up, and then the post made sense and I thought, why couldnt I have thought of that?? You got reincarnation sorted, but the animals versus humans ratio still makes no sense!

PS. Dont tell me that's your real name

GirlUK- Yeah I heard that too, and I can't remember the exact quote either, hehe.

Khalsa Soulja Ji - I get what you mean, but what I'm asking is this; If the human form is given the most importance, as the ONLY form in which you can become self-realised, meaning the best one is the 'human' form, and if we believe this and also that God is ALL-Just towards ALL of His creation, then why did some souls get the raw deal? As in why did some get a lower life form, in terms of consciousnessessss (spell check plz!)?

Gurpreet Kaur

Gurfateh

[Guest]

Gurpreet Kaur ji,

Yes i agree. Sikhism does not say only bhramins can attain salvation. Thats why bhagat ravi(low caste) das had to leave hinduism because in the hindu temple he wasnt allowed but he attained enlightment at the feet of the gurooo.

There is no doubt, sikhism has uniquness in its own. Sikhism even say that "atheist can gain salvation" by rebirths/suffering. Eventually atheist will become saint.

There are quotes in gurbani where a prositute(ganka papan) to bhramgyana(saint).

jih simuruth gunukaa see oudhhuree thaa ko jus our dhhaaro ||1|| rehaao ||

Meditating on Him in remembrance, Ganika the prostitute was saved; enshrine His Praises within your heart. ||1||Pause||

Guru Tegh Bahaadur Ji

Raag Sorath

632

gunukaa paapun hoeikai paapaa(n) dhaa gul haar purothaa||

Gankaa was a sinful prostitute who wore the necklace of misdeeds around her neck.

Bhai Gurdaas Ji

Vaars Bhai Gurdaas

10

[Guest]

forget this whole reincarnation thing - just ask the muslim "is the world flat or not?".... he will be stuck between reality n his religion

if he says the world is not flat - then ask him "so ur quran is false cos it claims that the world is flat" :twisted:

if he says "the world is flat" tell him to read a science book

[Mr §ingh]

forget this whole reincarnation thing - just ask the muslim "is the world flat or not?".... he will be stuck between reality n his religion

if he says the world is not flat - then ask him "so ur quran is false cos it claims that the world is flat" :twisted:

if he says "the world is flat" tell him to read a science book

hehe

did u read that out of the other site -link i gave ?

lol

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/avijitroy/flatearth.htm

hehe

yuea

ask him weather the SUn orbits the earth

or da opposite

and there u got another argument to follow after MR Steel Bangle's!

[Mugermach Singh]

Mugermach Bhaji - What can I say, lol. You cracked me up, and then the post made sense and I thought, why couldnt I have thought of that?? You got reincarnation sorted, but the animals versus humans ratio still makes no sense!

PS. Dont tell me that's your real name

ok, i wont.

[harsharan000]

There are ways and ways to view things....

And in short I will not speak about the muslims or others and their views,

but that much I will surely say, we are lucky and blessed to be born in sikhee, and so we can proudly chant:

Sabh Gobind hae, sabh Gobind hae, bin Gobind nahee koee .....

Sat Sree Akal .

[CdnSikhGirl]

We are the act of the Creator experiencing itself through its own creation. Everything within that creation which has evolved over time, contains the divine light. Creation has evolved from mineral ==> plant ==> animal ==> human kingdoms. Only in the human form, does creation posses high enough consciousness in order to ask the very questions "Who am I?" and "Why am I here?" Hence, human form is our chance to realize the truth about who we are.

ਸੋਹੰ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਪਤੀਆਇ ॥

Sohaʼn āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai sabaḏ bẖeḏ paṯī▫ā▫e.

One who recognizes within himself that, "He is me", and who is pierced through by the Shabad, is satisfied.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ਅਵਰ ਕਿ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਇ ॥੯॥

Gurmukẖ āp pacẖẖāṇī▫ai avar kė kare karā▫e. ||9||

When one becomes Gurmukh and realizes his own self, what more is there left to do or have done? ||9||

Basically as far as reincarnation goes... in the traditional sense, as in one separate soul playing a kind of hop scotch between physical bodies, is not how I have come to see it. Yes we have been here before, and yes we are all here now.... but is there not just ONE actor who plays all these parts, in all these different costumes? Is this ONE actor, not also the director of this play we call reality? (see SGGSJ P 736.)

We need to stop thinking in terms of 'I' vs 'You'. At the base of reality there is only awareness... and there is only ONE awareness. That awareness is you / me / everyone. 'I' am not 'Satkirin' - I am the consciousness who is aware of Satkirin.

Every animal, and every human are animated by the same divine light... the same 'doer' is behind all. It's one big dream of the Creator (just like when you dream at night, you are ALL of the characters even though they seem to be separate entities) Therefore, there is no issue with numbers of animals or humans... it becomes irrelevent.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Singh123456777]

There is no I or me or you or anybody. We have to throw out the concept of us having a free will cause there is none. Akaal Purkh is the one who controls everything from the good to the bad and everything in between. This world is a game for Akaal Purkh to play and we are just pawns in his game. It's a game for Akaal Purkh to cleanse itself of kaam,krodh,lobh,moh and hankaar. We are the parts of Akaal Purkh and through bhagti and following Akaal Purkh will we be cleansed and be able to join the part of Akaal Purkh that is clean and Sucha.

Hope I haven't confused anybody.

[ragnarok]

Your problem is that you're thinking about the problem from an Islamic context and accepting their assumption that there is a God sitting in the sky apart from us and has nothing better to do than punish people.

The Sikh position is that there is only One. All creation is illusion. Pleasure and pain are illusion. How can there be just and unjust when there is only One? The concept of just and unjust is presupposed on the existence of an individual separate from a judgemental 'god'. Ask him why his religion is called 'Islam' when it sanctifies violence.

Ok, I have a question which is really confusing me, I hope someone can help!
If we believe that God is ALL-JUST towards His creation, and shows no injustice towards any of His creation, and also believe in reincarnation, then how do we explain the beginning? If the human form is desired and the highest reward and oppurtunity to gain liberation from the cycle of birth and death, then if God is ALL Just towards all his creatures, were they all created and given human form when creation began? If not, and some were in animal forms, isn't this injustice towards those souls?
It is an argument a Muslim is using to prove reincarnation wrong, I'm completely stumped!

[CdnSikhGirl]

realized I already answered this lol

Edited December 11, 2014 by Satkirin_Kaur