laalsingh Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Guru Saheban are talking about higher truth here. There could be different religious rituals, but higher truth is always same. Same truth was found by Sheikh Farid while living in shariat, same truth was realized by Bhagat Dhanna while worshipping a stone, same truth was sung by Bhagat Namdev while worshipping Hindu god Krishna. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is not about rituals, it is above rituals. Here is full shabad from fifth Master. Nothing is more important than name of Lord and singing His praises. This is the prime directive. ਸਾਰਗ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਚਿਤਵਉ ਵਾ ਅਉਸਰ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਹੋਇ ਇਕਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਲਹੁ ਸੰਤ ਸਾਜਨ ਗੁਣ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਿਤ ਗਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਜਨ ਜੇਤੇ ਕਾਮ ਕਰੀਅਹਿ ਤੇਤੇ ਬਿਰਥੇ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦ ਮਨਿ ਮੀਠੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੂਸਰ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਜਪ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਕਰਮ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਧਨ ਤੁਲਿ ਨ ਕਛੂਐ ਲਾਹਿ ॥ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਨਾਨਕ ਮਨੁ ਬੇਧਿਓ ਚਰਨਹ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਮਾਹਿ ॥੨॥੭੨॥੯੫॥ || 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 It is possible as some shabads in Gurbani are meant to be read metaphoricly instead of literaly. The problem however is, how do you that you dont take it to far? I read a shabad once that said something like "the best of deeds is to praise the Lord".. does that mean that whenever Gurbani talks of doing good deeds, it talks about simran? should we just give up doing good deeds and concentrate on meditation alone? no. i cant find that shabad right now but here is another Chanting, deep meditation, austere self-discipline, good deeds and other techniques to being peace - they are not equal to even a tiny bit of the Lord's Name. Guru Arjan Dev Here it says that good deeds are worth nothing, so does it mean we should just give up doing good deeds and meditate instead? The same way that you have answered no, the same way it can be said that this "mosque" that Baba Fareed ji is talking about,- is'nt compassion. The good deeds are good deeds, and the mosque is a mosque You see the problem with that is that alot of translations like the one you have quoted are done by Sahib Singh Khalsa who uses the same vocabulary for many of the same words. Punjabi translation are more accurate and more in context to Gurbani, and I'm sure if you use a translation of that same shabad in Punjabi, it's meaning will apear to be more in context to the Guru's message. One should rarely rely on the English translations. They can be very misleading. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 ਜਪ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਕਰਮ English Translation by Dr Sant Singh: Chanting, deep meditation, austere self-discipline, good deeds Punjabi Translation by Prof Sahib Singh: ਜਪ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਆਦਿਕ ਹਠ-ਕਰਮ (deeds like chanting, deep meditation, austere self-discipline). ਕਰਮ here means deeds not good deeds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyhp32 Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 After Baba Farid states that the head that does not bow towards the Lord should be cut off. Guru Arjan then responds that when the Creator is in his creation and creation is in the Creator then who can we call bad. Is it response, correction or explaining the shabad? Are you implying here that hymns in Guru Granth Sahib are claims by muslims and then responses by our Masters (just like being done a lot lately through websites by fanatics of different faiths) ? Reading through the sloks and the responses of the three Gurus to them there is a case for considering the Gurus correcting Baba Farid. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Tony, please tell us according to whom or which tradition, does Guru Arjun Dev Ji respond to Baba Farid Ji's sloka? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 There is a similiar shabad by Guru Angad followed by Guru Arjan dev ji Maharaj.. Is Maharaj also correcting Guru Angad here ? ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੨ ॥ सलोक मः २ ॥ Salok mėhlā 2. Shalok, Second Mehl: ਜੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਸਾਂਈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਡਾਰਿ ॥ जो सिरु सांई ना निवै सो सिरु दीजै डारि ॥ Jo sir sāʼn▫ī nā nivai so sir ḏījai dār. Chop off that head which does not bow to the Lord. ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਪਿੰਜਰ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਰਹਾ ਨਹੀ ਸੋ ਪਿੰਜਰੁ ਲੈ ਜਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ नानक जिसु पिंजर महि बिरहा नही सो पिंजरु लै जारि ॥१॥ Nānak jis pinjar mėh birhā nahī so pinjar lai jār. ||1|| O Nanak, that human body, in which there is no pain of separation from the Lord-take that body and burn it. ||1|| -ang 89 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 There is a similiar shabad by Guru Angad followed by Guru Arjan dev ji Maharaj.. Is Maharaj also correcting Guru Angad here ? ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੨ ॥ सलोक मः २ ॥ Salok mėhlā 2. Shalok, Second Mehl: ਜੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਸਾਂਈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਡਾਰਿ ॥ जो सिरु सांई ना निवै सो सिरु दीजै डारि ॥ Jo sir sāʼn▫ī nā nivai so sir ḏījai dār. Chop off that head which does not bow to the Lord. ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਪਿੰਜਰ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਰਹਾ ਨਹੀ ਸੋ ਪਿੰਜਰੁ ਲੈ ਜਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ नानक जिसु पिंजर महि बिरहा नही सो पिंजरु लै जारि ॥१॥ Nānak jis pinjar mėh birhā nahī so pinjar lai jār. ||1|| O Nanak, that human body, in which there is no pain of separation from the Lord-take that body and burn it. ||1|| -ang 89 Another misleading Sahib Singh Khalsa translation. Prof Sahib Singh translated this more into context right here: http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0089.html Some things just cannot be translated into English properly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 thanks bro, i'll look into it... I can't see the gurmukhi text.. where can i download a gurmukhi font.. i have no problem eeing the panjabi text on srigranth.org though 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 you have option on srigranth.org to view prof sahib singh teeka as well. go on right top corner and change teeka option. and i dont think you would need punjabi fonts on srigranth.org. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 cool. no i dont need panjabi font on srigranth.org . it works on all computers.. thanks for the info on teekas. i can see that faridkot teeka is there as well for comparison between the two,...awesome sewa 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SURYADEV Posted February 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 No doubt you are also aware of the corrective Slok that Guru Nanak also composed in response to Baba Farid's sloks. I think a friend was talking about this. his saanthia teacher saying that bhagat/sant bani is all followed up by the banis of the gurus in SGGS, and the gurbani is actually 'correcting' the bhagat/sant bani! That was the first time I heard about bhagatbani being imperfect and requiring the gurus to put it straight. I always believed - and still do, that all the sants and bhagats within the SGGS are on par with the Gurus. Just as there is no difference between the first and third Guru , there is no difference with Bhagats and the Gurus. All are the same! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Well in any case lets look at the shabad with the five prayers at the mosque: Mėhlā 3. Third Mehl: .......... ........... ............. ............ ਫਰੀਦਾ ਬੇ ਨਿਵਾਜਾ ਕੁਤਿਆ ਏਹ ਨ ਭਲੀ ਰੀਤਿ ॥ फरीदा बे निवाजा कुतिआ एह न भली रीति ॥ Farīḏā be nivājā kuṯi▫ā eh na bẖalī rīṯ. Fareed: O faithless dog, this is not a good way of life. ਕਬਹੀ ਚਲਿ ਨ ਆਇਆ ਪੰਜੇ ਵਖਤ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥੭੦॥ कबही चलि न आइआ पंजे वखत मसीति ॥७०॥ Kabhī cẖal na ā▫i▫ā panje vakẖaṯ masīṯ. ||70|| You never come to the mosque for your five daily prayers. ||70|| they are listed under Mahalla 3, and not Fareed ke bani.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 amardeep, these saloks are not listed under third mehl. Third Master's salok is only salok#52. That salok ends with tuk with 'Nanak' in it. Saloks after that also belong to Sheikh Farid. Regarding Salok#52, this salok is not a response or correction of previous salok by Sheikh Faird, but Guru Sahib is making it more clear. I will post full shabad. ਫਰੀਦਾ ਰਤੀ ਰਤੁ ਨ ਨਿਕਲੈ ਜੇ ਤਨੁ ਚੀਰੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ Fareed, not even a drop of blood would issue forth, if someone cut my body. ਜੋ ਤਨ ਰਤੇ ਰਬ ਸਿਉ ਤਿਨ ਤਨਿ ਰਤੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੫੧॥ Those bodies which are imbued with the Lord - those bodies contain no blood. ||51|| ਮਃ ੩ ॥ Third Mehl: ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਸਭੋ ਰਤੁ ਹੈ ਰਤੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਤੰਨੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ This body is all blood; without blood, this body could not exist. ਜੋ ਸਹ ਰਤੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਤਿਤੁ ਤਨਿ ਲੋਭੁ ਰਤੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ Those who are imbued with their Lord, do not have the blood of greed in their bodies. ਭੈ ਪਇਐ ਤਨੁ ਖੀਣੁ ਹੋਇ ਲੋਭੁ ਰਤੁ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਜਾਇ ॥ When the Fear of God fills the body, it becomes thin; the blood of greed departs from within. ਜਿਉ ਬੈਸੰਤਰਿ ਧਾਤੁ ਸੁਧੁ ਹੋਇ ਤਿਉ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਭਉ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਗਵਾਇ ॥ Just as metal is purified by fire, the Fear of God removes the filthy residues of evil-mindedness. ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਜਨ ਸੋਹਣੇ ਜਿ ਰਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਲਾਇ ॥੫੨॥ O Nanak, those humble beings are beautiful, who are imbued with the Lord's Love. ||52|| It happens again, ਫਰੀਦਾ ਪਾੜਿ ਪਟੋਲਾ ਧਜ ਕਰੀ ਕੰਬਲੜੀ ਪਹਿਰੇਉ ॥ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਵੇਸੀ ਸਹੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੇਈ ਵੇਸ ਕਰੇਉ ॥੧੦੩॥ Fareed, I have torn my clothes to tatters; now I wear only a rough blanket. I wear only those clothes which will lead me to meet my Lord. ||103|| ਮਃ ੩ ॥ ਕਾਇ ਪਟੋਲਾ ਪਾੜਤੀ ਕੰਬਲੜੀ ਪਹਿਰੇਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਘਰ ਹੀ ਬੈਠਿਆ ਸਹੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਜੇ ਨੀਅਤਿ ਰਾਸਿ ਕਰੇਇ ॥੧੦੪॥ Third Mehl: Why do you tear apart your fine clothes, and take to wearing a rough blanket? O Nanak, even sitting in your own home, you can meet the Lord, if your mind is in the right place. ||104|| Here is another shabad from Guru Arjun Dav Ji on Panna 487 which comes right after Bhagat Bani. I don't see it as correction or response from Guru Sahib against Bhagat Bani ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸੰਗਿ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਮਨੁ ਲੀਣਾ ॥ ਆਢ ਦਾਮ ਕੋ ਛੀਪਰੋ ਹੋਇਓ ਲਾਖੀਣਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Fifth Mehl: Naam Dayv's mind was absorbed into God, Gobind, Gobind, Gobind. The calico-printer, worth half a shell, became worth millions. ||1||Pause|| ਬੁਨਨਾ ਤਨਨਾ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਕੈ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਚਰਨ ਕਬੀਰਾ ॥ ਨੀਚ ਕੁਲਾ ਜੋਲਾਹਰਾ ਭਇਓ ਗੁਨੀਯ ਗਹੀਰਾ ॥੧॥ Abandoning weaving and stretching thread, Kabeer enshrined love for the Lord's lotus feet. A weaver from a lowly family, he became an ocean of excellence. ||1|| ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਢੁਵੰਤਾ ਢੋਰ ਨੀਤਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਤਿਆਗੀ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਆ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ Ravi Daas, who used to carry dead cows every day, renounced the world of Maya. He became famous in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, and obtained the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan. ||2|| ਸੈਨੁ ਨਾਈ ਬੁਤਕਾਰੀਆ ਓਹੁ ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਸੁਨਿਆ ॥ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਸਿਆ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਭਗਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਗਨਿਆ ॥੩॥ Sain, the barber, the village drudge, became famous in each and every house. The Supreme Lord God dwelled in his heart, and he was counted among the devotees. ||3|| ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਸੁਨਿ ਕੈ ਜਾਟਰੋ ਉਠਿ ਭਗਤੀ ਲਾਗਾ ॥ ਮਿਲੇ ਪ੍ਰਤਖਿ ਗੁਸਾਈਆ ਧੰਨਾ ਵਡਭਾਗਾ ॥੪॥੨॥ Hearing this, Dhanna the Jaat applied himself to devotional worship. The Lord of the Universe met him personally; Dhanna was so very blessed. ||4||2|| There are numerous other examples. But nowhere Guru Saheban are trying to reject or correct Bhagat bani. Some people argue that if all the Bani is same why Bani is listed under Gurus' name or Bhagat's name. Reason for that is simple to make us able to look at context. Central idea remains the same. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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