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Mr Sardar

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Although the promotion of these khanjarkhanai to Sikh youth is bad, the Gurbani you are talking about clearly does not relate to physical dancing - it is talking about the the power of the panj chor and their affect on our actions - which chase around after material objects and in doing so forget the ultimate reality. Bhangra and Gidda until recent times was performed in isolation by men and women during weddings etc - not like the shameful mixed disco environments we see today - these dances used to be a respectful part of Punjabi folk traditions, much of which have been used for the common Punjabi man by our Gurus in many shabds kirtan sirlek.

We need to learn to separate the wheat from the chaff instead of making ill thought presentations.

naanak bhoudhiaa ganath n a(n)th ||

ba(n)dhhan ba(n)dhh bhavaaeae soe ||

paeiai kirath nachai sabh koe ||

nach nach hasehi chalehi sae roe ||

oudd n jaahee sidhh n hohi ||

nachan kudhan man kaa chaao ||

naanak jinh man bho thinhaa man bhaao ||2||

O Nanak, the tumblers are countless and endless.

The Lord binds us in bondage - so do we spin around.

According to their actions, so do all people dance.

Those who dance and dance and laugh, shall weep on their ultimate departure.

They do not fly to the heavens, nor do they become Siddhas.

They dance and jump around on the urgings of their minds.

O Nanak, those whose minds are filled with the Fear of God, have the love of God in their minds as well. ||2||

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ANG 465

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"If you really enjoy putting on giddha in mela were we have Singhni nachnaa tapna infront of people then go for that, but throughout history making women dance was a show of kanjarikhana also known as mujras etc."

Try reading what I said more slowly instead of throwing sissy fits. I didn't mention men and women dancing together, quite the opposite.

For your information - dancing - first and foremost - has been a form of worship for over 2,000 years in India, and is still so in South India where old traditions have remained. Same goes for singing - just because the art form is used to promote kanjerkana today, doesn't mean it always was.

Gurmat Sangeet and its many folk traditions show that this artform served a divine and social purpose also. Try doing some research before turning green.

As an example:

1 - What do you think 9 of the 22 vaars in Gurbani are set too?

2 - What are Ghorhiaan?

3 - What are Alahaniyan?

A clue - they are rooted in Punjabi culture!

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Dancing (doing Bhangra) amongst Jats is a trend no older than 50-60 years. Long ago a Jat doing Bhangra was considered a very low standard Jat. In wedding, Jats would actually pay professionals (both men and women) to perform Bhangra and Jats would look on watching them dance. These professionals belonged to so called "low castes" of Punjab who were mostly Muslims. But with modernisation of Punjabi culture, things which were considered degrading to Jats became popular amongst the new generation of Jats after the independence of India.

Now Bhagra is so part of Jat that a Jat who does not know how to do Bhangra is not considered a 'real Jat' by fellow Jats not realising that Bhangra itself was considered something very low by old school Jats a few generations ago. Atleast this is how things were considered in the Majjah region. Not sure about how Bhangra was considered in other parts of Punjab a few generations ago.

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Yes it is true Bhangra is derived from 'bhang' when people used to imbibe bhang they became mast and began to dance. Ra is the bija mantra for fire hence the Bhang caused the fire of intoxication to be lit =bhangra. This fire then passed into people who began to feel the masti of these 'Bhangraee's' when they saw them. This caused normal unintoxicated people to feel the fire of intoxication and dance, they began to do bhangra.

This proceeded fine as there were no 'police' around at this time and people used to do what was natural to them as they did not have anyone to tell them it was wrong. But gradually the supply of Bhang became low and the original Bhangaree's died out leaving only the unintoxicated ones. And therefore the flame of intoxication began to die out. But now something strange happened as the internal fire died out some wise spark hit upon the idea of dancing around a fire and in some way to gain this fire of intoxication back. So they all began doing 'bhangra' around a fire around this time the police appeared. These police also had been doing bhangra before but when the internal fire died out due to the absence of Bhang they became very upset and angry at the King who restricted the supply of Bhang. Out of this anger they began to serve the King as they had no choice but they began venting their anger on the depraved Bhangra addicts dancing around fires. This comedic situation began to degenerate, the police began to stamp out fires and beat up the bhangra addicts and the bhangra addicts began creating new underground fires away from the police it all became a big joke. Now the bhangra addicts have very advanced fires called raves and the police try to stamp these raves God knows where it will all end. I pray the King increases the supply of BHang again so we can have some orignal Bhangarees.

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sarbatdapala I didn't say Bhangra is only 50-60 yrs old. I said that prior to a few generations ago (50-60 yrs), Bhangra was not common amongst Jats. Jats would pay professional dancers who mostly belonged to the Muslim community to perform Bhangra. Dancing amongst Jatt man during olden times was considered a very degrading thing to do. But as time goes on, old ways vanish and new thoughts emerge. Now Bhangra is very much a part of Jat culture Punjabi culture. It is similar to how acting as a professional career was something very degrading amongst Jats just 30 years ago. Now Jats have no problem sending their daughters to become actresses and entertainers. All the professions which at one time were considered Kanjarpuna by Jats is now considered very respectful and are now part of contemporary Jat culture. Times change and social values also change.

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There is no clear cut answer to this. I think lot of youths been to camps where one simply is taught this is gurmat, this is manmat without looking at the depth of important issues such as dancing. Its quite fine for begineers because pot of mind is not fully developed here, amrit may not stay there in other words mind may wanders around here and there.

Gurbani itself does not decide nitty gritty acts of person as Gurmat or Manmat in this case- dancing because gurbani supports meta reality based on individual surti. As gurbani says: jehri surat tahi rahe jai ||

Main question should not be if bhangra or dancing is manmat but if lyrics one dancing into is manmat??

Dancing on dirty lyrics or anti gurmat lyrics has no place in sikhi like for eg- jatt bakaraie bulandaie brauhhhhhhhh its pure manmat there is no justification in that. However, it all depends on the lyrics, one may think the person who is dancing to lyrics which is dedicated towards other person mostly hindi songs lyrics are romantic meant for dedicated to opposite sex is committing manmat. However person who is dancing to that lyrics may be dancing to express his/her love towards guru maharaj. I cannot even begin to give examples from indian movie lyrics where one can easily interpret, dedicated the song lyrics to their spiritual teacher/guru maharaj ji instead of one's mashoka.

Similarly if you listen or read bulleh shah peotry or rumi sahib poetry or even bhai nand lal poetry for sri guru gobind singh ji, one may doubt they may be referring to lady they fall in love but in fact its dedicated towards allah beautiful creation, In jaap sahib, sri guru gobind singh ji talks about - husan jamal hai. One arrogrant of persian peotry may easily twist it and claim guru maharaj ji may be talking about specific woman but guru maharaj is talking about beauty of akaal purkh transcedent into its creation. I am in no way comparing gurbani with hindi lyrics before someone accuses me of that. I am just trying to prove a point that one's surti may perceives (what joe blow think as) manmat lyrics as Gurmat because of their higher surti and one arrogrance of beautiful poetry of sufi saints or gurbani poetry may perceives them as manmat because of their low surti or low avastha.

Going back to the topic of dancing, dancing in maharaj's darbar out of spiritual intoxication like sufi's do is highly discouraged but its not manmat. The reason its highly discouraged in darbar is because gurmukh supposed to hide his avastha or emotions and stay in sehaj avastha in darbar and stay in sehaj when dealing with normal sangat which may have many begineers. One surti may get soo much of ras on certain lyrics of artist one cannot stop it to express themselves in dancing. Now question one may ask if one has gurbani why others have to listen to other lyrics let alone dancing? again answer to that is not clear cut requires bit of deep vichar.

According to gurbani, no where it talks about do not listen to stuff which are dedicated towards vahiguroo or may be interperted as dedicated towards vahiguroo, if one develops their jevan, at one point they see goodness in everywhere, so individual surti based on avastha get naturally attuned to lyrics which are spiritually attuned or can be perceive spiritually especially sufi qwalis are much appreciated by many mahapursh some of them even include them in their vichars, some lyrics may even seem that its dedicated more towards female or vice versa whether one may understand them it depends on their surti.

In taksal along with samparda's such rara sahib, there were many mahapursh/bhramgyanis who were maryada purushtam which is quite fine so straight answer to begineer jaigaso that dancing is manmat is quite expected but as surti progress of that jaigaso into spiritual realm and goes back to maryada purshtam mahapursh they now might get different answer all together, it will have depth, not everything is black and white in sikhi especially in mysticism portion of sikhi. Many maryada purushtam mahapursh never engage in such practises but they had no problems interacting with other mahapursh who engage into mastane practices such as dancing, unexpectly clapping their hands, throw stones at people who came, gone naked start running around to prove a point, they had no problem with interacting with them, they have given the acts performed by these mastane fakirs as agami kautak, fakir di ramza. They have consider mastane fakirs in the panth who engaged into activities listed above quite high avastha.

Anyway going back to the topic, in layman terms, there is no question that dancing to dirty lyrics is manmat but if one is dancing to good lyrics which shows goodness in others or somehow remind us of god then no its not manmat.

Also argument of dancing on just pure music based on health reasons is quite good, there are sikhs who engage into sports activity, if one wishes to play maryada game card with people who dances for health reasons same can be argued people playing sports, in both activities there is a work out. However there is one major difference playing a sports requires concentration in that sport which is taking away us from vahiguroo but dancing on just pure music requires no additional concentration, one may go mast in music and concentrates on akaal purkh.. so if people want to play maryada game card too then it appears sports is more manmat than dancing on just pure music because one requires concentration in that act and other one does not...anyway its a long post now i have to go back to see how many times i have used manmat word ..lol

Nanak Satgur Bhetiya Poori Hovaie Jugat |

Hasandaie Khelendiya Pehendiya Kavandaiya Viche Hovaie Mukht ||

[Ang- 522]

In Sikhi, life is celebration. Sikhi Bairaagi marg aside for most part, one does not have to miserable watchdog all the time, try to enjoy life while you pursue bhagti. Generally speaking, there is a limit, the problem is either people follow one extreme of being miserable watchdog or follow another extreme do bhangra on anti-gurmat lyrics and try to justify it. Both are wrong.

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Sarbat -SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia. LOL. now all you need to do is understand the concepts of original thought and association.

Mekhane'ch Jannat, hilarious.

N30, some good points - you hit the nail on the head when you speak of content - I would add to this environment is also important i.e. shabds played in khanjerkhannai (nightclubs) are wasted.

Talking of songs, interesting that there a mentions of Heer in Gurbani and Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaaran (from memory) and that these traditions were passed on in folk music form..... obviously, Sikhs didn't pour molten lead in the ears if other songs were heard... also the 9 'dhunis' in gurbani were taken from popular folk tales sung at that time - which the sangatan would have been used too - hence there inclusion in Gurbani (popular tunes)... which also served the purpose of having presenting the exact 'vibe' Gurusahiban intended.

Dhadi vaaran are non-gurbani- but have served an important role in preserving history and giving hope/bravery. They were clearly a very important part of Gurus darbar, evidenced by the fact that Dhadis served Guru Darbar from Guru Hargobind Sahib onwards - its a damn shame that we do not promote or demand this seva in every single Guru ghar today.

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2pac is for the brain dead.

If you are going to listen to music, at least listen to something that can be appreciated at an intelligent level.

Our Gurus rvaaj were the epitome of art and culture, listening to this neanderthal trash doesn't do your bhagti any favours, nor does it do your social education any favours - in fact it encourages devolution.

But each to his own!

So 2pac is a no no ? :(
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This is my understanding. I believe Guru Ji is talking about the dancing of the mind, when your in prayer thinking of something else while praying, you mind isnt set on praying and your prayers are done half hearted. When the mind is still, then you can attain oneness. But Guru Ji also says that your mind should dance to God. I dont think Guru Ji was taking about Physical dancing but I think it depends on individuals understanding.

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