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The Fools Argue Shouting Over Flesh


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Randip Singh ji,

I am not a sheep that follows others with a blind fold. You claim yourself to be a historian but you know not anything about History. As I responded to your private message, you have spewed dirty on our Gurus, be it intentional or unintentional, but I will not stand for this insolence.

I do and shall refute all your claims in your essay. I have already shown in my post above what Guru Nanak Dev ji was telling the Pandits in Kurukshetar. The line of thought and your misrepresentations stands out wide. There is a big difference in what Guru ji said and others understood. Those pandits now exists in the guise of a Sikh. When you have calmed down a little, read my post again and again and you too may come to understand Gurus message.

PS we have over 8000 members at SPN, I don't check every post.

No doubt you have over 8000 members but the first 8000 are all silent watching the stupidity of the number over. As VSGrewal pointed out you do not have more than 15 members participating so what is the joy in numbers. Most of the regular contributors are your moderators who are equally uninformed. You 8000 or so members are mere spectators and not contributors. "Oochi Dukaan Pheeka Pakwaan"

Anyone can call himself a Sikh with a minuscule understanding of Gurus Updesh. This will not get anyone anywhere.

We have all read your essay, please do not keep posting extracts from it again and again. Now wait for my response. You are a small fish that is taking credit of someone else's work but I will be responding to the main culprits head on.

Try learning some other words like Daya, Santokh, Sabbar.(Dhaul Dharam Daya ka poot - One that has no Daya for other living beings is adharmic - his life is no better than an animal who does not have that Sense) Sabhna jiyaan ka ik data so main visar na jayee - All creatures belong to the same lord, let me not forget that - Japji sahib. Reading Bani, understanding and practicing are all related but follow in a sequence. Read Bani so that you can listen with your ears, Understand what you have listened and put it in practice. When you have done that, have some fear and love for the lord. It takes time but one day you will get there.

ekmusafir_ajnabi

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I think the point is one does not read Bani without understanding the context. One needs to understand the "crowd" the Guru's were talking too. If one looks into the history of where this idea o Quabani, Halal, Bismil comes from then you must understand the Abrahamic faiths like the Guru's and thair audience did, how else could the Guru's make the following assertion:

There is no relevance to Abrahamic faiths here. The audience was not exposed to these missionaries yet. This is your personal angle to mis direct the audience.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...id=18290#l18290

Page 397, Line 7

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਹਭਾ ਹੂੰ ਬਾਹਰਾ ॥

बेद कतेब संसार हभा हूं बाहरा ॥

Beḏ kaṯeb sansār habẖā hūʼn bāhrā.

He is beyond the world of the Vedas, the Koran and the Bible.

Walk in the foot steps of the Guru's. Be physically and mentally fit. If they had not had been of a divine persuation, they would have been formiddable scholars.

ਬੇਦ = Vedas, ਕਤੇਬ = Koran

Where does the bible come into all this. These are small examples of your lack of knowledge especially in view of the essay belonging to someone else.

I agree that Gurus were formidable scholars and were divine but you are showing a formidable lack of knowledge on Gurus Message.

ekmusafir_ajnabi

PS I shall not waste any further time to respond to your comments.

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There is no relevance to Abrahamic faiths here. The audience was not exposed to these missionaries yet. This is your personal angle to mis direct the audience.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...id=18290#l18290

Page 397, Line 7

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਹਭਾ ਹੂੰ ਬਾਹਰਾ ॥

बेद कतेब संसार हभा हूं बाहरा ॥

Beḏ kaṯeb sansār habẖā hūʼn bāhrā.

He is beyond the world of the Vedas, the Koran and the Bible.

Walk in the foot steps of the Guru's. Be physically and mentally fit. If they had not had been of a divine persuation, they would have been formiddable scholars.

ਬੇਦ = Vedas, ਕਤੇਬ = Koran

Where does the bible come into all this. These are small examples of your lack of knowledge especially in view of the essay belonging to someone else.

I agree that Gurus were formidable scholars and were divine but you are showing a formidable lack of knowledge on Gurus Message.

ekmusafir_ajnabi

PS I shall not waste any further time to respond to your comments.

What on earth are you talking about? Were their no Muslims there? Was there no Mardana? Do you not know what happened when Guru Nanak died and people squabbled over his body? You lack basics in Sikh History so how can you be taught?

As per usual you have not debunked anything.

You have skirted round the issues. I have carefully evidenced and researched everything. I have added writings of notable scholars, and even people like Gyani Sher Singh (phd) from the SGPC. They ALL debunk your claims. You are in a minority. You are a Vaishnavite. Admit it and move on. What you are advocating is the principles of Ahimsa, which are Vaishnavite and do not sit with Sikhi.

PS I look forward to your rebuttal which I have been waiting for for 3 years now. :rolleyes:

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Randip Singh ji,

I am not a sheep that follows others with a blind fold. You claim yourself to be a historian but you know not anything about History.

No you are not a sheep but you certainly are blind. Blinded by your ego, you arrogance.

Please do not lecture me on history, I have exposed your knowledge on sikh history a million times. You cannot even acknowledge the Guru's had Muslim followers. If you cannot acknowledge this you have no hope.

As I responded to your private message, you have spewed dirty on our Gurus, be it intentional or unintentional, but I will not stand for this insolence.

Just who the hell do you think you are?

You claim to have personal meetings with the Guru's and think you are a Guru yourself?

On the contrary, it was the team at SPN who exposed you. For your information, Amanji who runs the site is a strict Vegetarian, so you cannot claim that was the reason he booted you out.

I do and shall refute all your claims in your essay. I have already shown in my post above what Guru Nanak Dev ji was telling the Pandits in Kurukshetar. The line of thought and your misrepresentations stands out wide. There is a big difference in what Guru ji said and others understood. Those pandits now exists in the guise of a Sikh. When you have calmed down a little, read my post again and again and you too may come to understand Gurus message.

You are in no position to refute anything. You promised to refute this essay 3 years ago. You didn't. You failed. You were exposed as a Vaishnavite. Accept it, move on!

No doubt you have over 8000 members but the first 8000 are all silent watching the stupidity of the number over. As VSGrewal pointed out you do not have more than 15 members participating so what is the joy in numbers. Most of the regular contributors are your moderators who are equally uninformed. You 8000 or so members are mere spectators and not contributors. "Oochi Dukaan Pheeka Pakwaan"

Anyone can call himself a Sikh with a minuscule understanding of Gurus Updesh. This will not get anyone anywhere.

We have all read your essay, please do not keep posting extracts from it again and again. Now wait for my response. You are a small fish that is taking credit of someone else's work but I will be responding to the main culprits head on.

Try learning some other words like Daya, Santokh, Sabbar.(Dhaul Dharam Daya ka poot - One that has no Daya for other living beings is adharmic - his life is no better than an animal who does not have that Sense) Sabhna jiyaan ka ik data so main visar na jayee - All creatures belong to the same lord, let me not forget that - Japji sahib. Reading Bani, understanding and practicing are all related but follow in a sequence. Read Bani so that you can listen with your ears, Understand what you have listened and put it in practice. When you have done that, have some fear and love for the lord. It takes time but one day you will get there.

ekmusafir_ajnabi

VS Grewal Ji disgrees with you on this issue TOO!

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-s....html#post97926

MEAT IN SIKHISM

ABSTRACT

Whether to consume any kind of meat should be a matter of personal preference on the basis of taste etc. It is foolhardy to bring religion into this issue. Guru Nanak has explained it very well: Only God knows what is good and what is bad. Meat has been eaten in all the four ages and has been referred in all religious books. Guru Angad in Raag Ramkali ponders on the life in ocean;

ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਆਹਾਰੁ ਜੀਅ ਖਾਣਾ ਏਹੁ ਕਰੇਇ ॥

Jī▫ā kā āhār jī▫a kẖāṇā ehu kare▫i.

Animals eat other animals; this is what the Akal Purkh has given them as food. -----Guru Angad, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 955-11

-- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Water is the source of every thing in creation whether vegetation or meat. It quenches thirst and cleanses the body but not consciousness says Guru Nanak in Raag Sarang;

ਪਾਣੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਨ ਧੋਪਈ ਮੁਖਿ ਪੀਤੈ ਤਿਖ ਜਾਇ ॥ਪਾਣੀ ਪਿਤਾ ਜਗਤ ਕਾ ਫਿਰਿ ਪਾਣੀ ਸਭੁ ਖਾਇ ॥

paanee chit na Dhop-ee mukh peetai tikh jaa-ay, Paanee Pitaa Jagat Kaa Fir Paanee Sabh Khaa-ay.

The consciousness is not washed with water. You drink it to quench your thirst. Water is the father of the world. In the end water destroys it all.-----Guru Nanak Dev, Raag Sarang, AGGS, Page, 1240-9

The goodness of food or clothes depends on the purity of heart, as explained by Guru Nanak in Raag Majh and Siri Raag;

ਕਿਆ ਖਾਧੈ ਕਿਆ ਪੈਧੈ ਹੋਇ ॥ਜਾ ਮਨਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥ਕਿਆ ਮੇਵਾ ਕਿਆ ਘਿਉ ਗੁੜੁ ਮਿਠਾ ਕਿਆ ਮੈਦਾ ਕਿਆ ਮਾਸੁ ॥

Ki-aa KhaaDhai Ki-aa PaiDhai Ho-ay, Jaa Man Naahee Sachaa So-ay,Kiaa Mayvaa Kiaa Gheo Gurh Mithaa Kiaa Maidaa Kiaa Maas.

What good is consuming delicacies and wearing fine clothes, if the True Akal Purkh does not abide within the mind? What good are fruits, butter, sugar, sweets, flour and meat? -----Guru Nanak, Vaar Raag Majh, AGGS, Page, 142-12

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਹਲਾਲ ਦੁਇ ਤੀਜਾ ਖੈਰ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥

Pahilā sacẖ halāl ḏu¬ė ṯījā kẖair kẖuḏā¬ė.

Let the first be truthfulness, the second honest living, and the third charity in the Name of God. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Majh, AGGS, Page, 141- 4

Sabd Guru categorically forbids mind altering substances that have immoral consequences as indicated by Guru Nanak in Siri Raag;

ਬਾਬਾ ਹੋਰੁ ਖਾਣਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਖਾਧੈ ਤਨੁ ਪੀੜੀਐ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥

Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828 (Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh)

Baabaa Hor Khaanaa Khusee Khu-aar, Jit Khadhai Tan Peerhai Man Meh Chaleh Vikaar.

O Baba, the pleasures of other foods are false. Eating them, the body is ruined, and wickedness and corruption enter into the mind.-----Guru Nanak, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 16-14

Sikh thought is more concerned with the ethical side of the life rather than physical or material things or Maya. Food of any type makes little difference. What is important is the spiritual part of remembering God, since it enhances spiritual growth. Those not remembering God are heading toward delusion, as described by Guru Nanak in Raag Majh:

ਇਕਿ ਮਾਸਹਾਰੀ ਇਕਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਣੁ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ਇਕਨਾ ਛਤੀਹ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ਇਕਿ ਮਿਟੀਆ ਮਹਿ ਮਿਟੀਆ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਮੁਠੇ ਜਾਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਇ ॥ Ik Masaharee Ik TriN Khaaeh, Ikna Chateeh Amnrit Paaeh, Ik MiTee-aa Meh MiTee-aa Khaaeh, Nanak Muthay Jaahi Naahee Man So-ay.

Some eat meat, while others eat grass. Some have all the thirty-six varieties of delicacies, while others live in the dirt and eat mud. O Nanak, those who do not enshrine the Akal Purkh within their minds is deluded. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Majh, AGGS, Page, 144

Here is another Sloke of Mardana in Raag Bihaagrha stressing the spiritual side of life:

ਗੁਣ ਮੰਡੇ ਕਰਿ ਸੀਲੁ ਘਿਉ ਸਰਮੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਆਹਾਰੁ ॥ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੁੜੁ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਮੰਡੇ ਭਉ ਮਾਸੁ ਆਹਾਰੁ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹੁ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਸਚੁ ਹੈ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥

GouN ManDay Kar Seel Gheo Saram Maas Aahaar, Giaan Gourh Salaah ManDay Bhou Maas Aahaar, Nanak Ih Bhojan Sach Hai Sach Naam AaDhaar.

Make virtue your bread, good conduct the ghee, and modesty the meat to eat. So make spiritual wisdom your molasses, the Praise of God your bread, and the Fear of God the meat you eat. O Nanak, this is the true food; let the True Name be your only Support. -----Mardana, Raag Bihaagrha, AGGS, Page, 553-6

Kabir originally was idolater and follower of Ramanand and later became monotheistic and believed in contemplation of Naam. He being under the influence of Vedanta states about 3 things to refrain from including fish;

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥

Kabir Bhaang Maachulee Sura Paan Jo Jo Praanee Khaaneh, Teerath Barat Naym Keeay Tay Sabhay Rasaatal Jaaneh.

Kabir, the mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, will all go to hell.-----Bhagat Kabir Slokes # 233, AGGS, Page, 1377-2 & 3

There have been references to the Hukamnama of Guru Har Gobind from the book of Hukamnamas by Dr. Ganda Singh to the effect that the Gurus forbid the eating of meat. This Hukamnama have been annulled by the above references and he him self being a good hunter makes the document erroneous.

Guru Nanak’s Raag Malar is devoted to meat eating. He recited it at Kurkchetar at the festival of solar eclipse while cooking the deer meat, to remove doubts and superstitions about its eating;

ਮਾਸਹੁ ਨਿੰਮੇ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਜੰਮੇ ਹਮ ਮਾਸੈ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ॥ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕਛੁ ਸੂਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਤੁਰੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਪਾਂਡੇ ॥

Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828 (Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh)

Maasahu Nimmay Maasahu Janmay Ham Maasai Kay Bhaanday, Gi-aan Dhi-aan Kachh Soojhai Naahee Chatur Kahaavai PaaNday.

In the flesh we are conceived and in the flesh we are born -- we are vessels of the flesh. You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.

ਮਾਸੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਤੇਬਂ*ੀ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਿ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਮਾਣਾ ॥ ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੂ ਜਾਣੈ ਹੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਥਹੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਉਪੰਨਾ ॥ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਕਮਾਦੁ ਕਪਾਹਾਂ ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਗੰਨਾ ॥ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤੁ ਨਿਪੰਨੇ ਮਛੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਨ ਖਾਂਹੀ ॥ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਪੁਰਖੈ ਜਾਂ ਨਿਸਿ ਮੇਲਾ ਓਥੈ ਮੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਹੀ ॥

Maas PuraaNee Maas Kataybeen Chaoh Jug Maas KamaaNaa, PaanDay Too JaaNai Hee Naahee Kithoh Maas Upunnaa, To-i-ahu Ann Kamaad KapaahaaN To-i-ahu Taribhavan Gannaa, Maat Pitaa Kee Rakat Nipannay Machhee Maas Na KhaaNhee, Istaree Purkhai JaaN Nis Maylaa Othai ManDh Kamaahee.

Meat is allowed in the Puraanas and in other Holy books. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used. O Pundit, you do not know where meat originated. Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water. They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers who do not eat fish or meat. But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Malaar, AGGS, Page, 1290

The complete Sabd translated;

First, the mortal is conceived in the flesh, and then he dwells in the flesh. When he comes alive, his mouth takes flesh; his bones, skin and body are flesh. He comes out of the womb of flesh, and takes a mouthful of flesh at the breast. His mouth is flesh, his tongue is flesh; his breath is in the flesh. He grows up and is married, and brings his wife of flesh into his home. Flesh is produced from flesh; all relatives are made of flesh. When the mortal meets the True Guru, and realizes the Akal Purkh's Command, then he comes to be reformed. Releasing himself, the mortal does not find release; O, Nanak through empty words, one is ruined.

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom. What is called meat, and what is called a green vegetable? What leads to sin? It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering. Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night. They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom. O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people?

They cannot answer, or even understand what is said. They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts. They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat. But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh. In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh. You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar. O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.

All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh. They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind. In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh. You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar. Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in other religious scriptures and the Quran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used. It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.

Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat. If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them. The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven -- look at this injustice. You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pundit, you are very wise indeed. O Pundit, you do not know where meat originated. Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water. Water says, "I am good in many ways." But water takes many forms. Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks.

Conclusion:

Every material thing develops from water whether meat or vegetable. It is the remembering of God which is important rather than debating unnecessarily the merits of vegetables or of meat. Personal considerations must determine what is good or bad for a person. In AGGS there is no prohibition about eating or cooking meat. Guru Nanak cooked deer meat at the festival of the solar eclipse at Kurchetar to remove doubt and superstition. According to Vedanta philosophy called ahimsa, it is advised to refrain from injuring - physically, mentally or emotionally - anyone or any living creature, which has creped in to Sikh Faith. Guru Arjan in Raag Maru ponders;

ਹਕੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਬਖੋਰਹੁ ਖਾਣਾ ॥

Hak halāl bakẖorahu kẖāṇā.

Let what is earned righteously be your blessed food.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1084-7

I listen but I don't listen to Vaishnavites.

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I think the point is one does not read Bani without understanding the context. One needs to understand the "crowd" the Guru's were talking too. If one looks into the history of where this idea o Quabani, Halal, Bismil comes from then you must understand the Abrahamic faiths like the Guru's and thair audience did, how else could the Guru's make the following assertion:

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...id=18290#l18290

Page 397, Line 7

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਹਭਾ ਹੂੰ ਬਾਹਰਾ ॥

बेद कतेब संसार हभा हूं बाहरा ॥

Beḏ kaṯeb sansār habẖā hūʼn bāhrā.

He is beyond the world of the Vedas, the Koran and the Bible.

Walk in the foot steps of the Guru's. Be physically and mentally fit. If they had not had been of a divine persuation, they would have been formiddable scholars.

But the person who translated that shabad and mentioned Abraham especially since there was no mention of Abraham makes the translation seem agenda based. Okay if we take your argument that we should see it in context of Qurbani that Muslims perform during Bakra Eid to comemorate the sacrifice of Abraham even then it seems to be the wrong context to put that Shabad into. For starters, if the Shabad were talking about the Qurbani that is performed during Bakra Eid then surely it would mention the Qurbani of a Bakra instead of Chicken which is not the traditional animal to be sacrificed during Bakra Eid. We need to make sure that we do not translate Gurbani in accordance to our personal agenda and give it an angle to prove a point.

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i have been told by a muslim that bakra is the first choice, but if one couldnt afford a bakra then a chicken or cheaper animal would suffice.

I think, maybe I could be wrong , but the mention of "kateb" or the followers of the book would automatically refer to the Abrahamic faiths, withou haing to name all the 4 books and their followers.

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But the person who translated that shabad and mentioned Abraham especially since there was no mention of Abraham makes the translation seem agenda based. Okay if we take your argument that we should see it in context of Qurbani that Muslims perform during Bakra Eid to comemorate the sacrifice of Abraham even then it seems to be the wrong context to put that Shabad into. For starters, if the Shabad were talking about the Qurbani that is performed during Bakra Eid then surely it would mention the Qurbani of a Bakra instead of Chicken which is not the traditional animal to be sacrificed during Bakra Eid. We need to make sure that we do not translate Gurbani in accordance to our personal agenda and give it an angle to prove a point.

Why Agenda based?

One author was a vegetarian and the other a meat eater, so why agenda based?

The mention of Abraham is just explaining what Bismil and Halal is about. Where is the problem?

Who is talking about Bakra eid when any animal can be sacrificed according to affordability?

Where is the connection with Bakra's? Why have you assumed Qurbani/Halal/Bismil is only done at Bakra Eid?

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Randip Singh Ji, even though the Shabad did not mention Abraham or hint towards anyone known as Abraham but you or the person who translated the Shabad specifically mentioned Abraham and his sacrifice, which is why Muslims celebrate Bakra Eid. So surely if the angle you are putting that Shabad into is about Abraham's story then logically the Shabad would specifically mention a Bakra and not a chicken. As for why Muslims sacrifice animals using their specific method has alot to do with how pre Islamic Pagan Arabs also performed the same sacrifice of a Bakra to their Pagan Gods in Mecca. Mohammad simply continued this Pagan Arab tradition. So far, I've read teekas done by Giani Harbanse Singh, Prof Sahib Singh, Faridkoti Teeta and none of them mention Abraham or anything remotely of what you have translated in that article mentioning Abraham.

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Randip Singh Ji, even though the Shabad did not mention Abraham or hint towards anyone known as Abraham but you or the person who translated the Shabad specifically mentioned Abraham and his sacrifice, which is why Muslims celebrate Bakra Eid. So surely if the angle you are putting that Shabad into is about Abraham's story then logically the Shabad would specifically mention a Bakra and not a chicken.

Wrong on all accounts:

1) I did not write the essay (although I edited it)

2) The Abrahamic ritual is generic, it is only you putting it into the context of Bakra Eid.

3) The Abrahamic ritual explains what sacrifice in the name of God is about.

4) Whether you have a Bakra, Chicken, or elephant is irrelevant, what is relevant is the sacrifice in the name of God.

As for why Muslims sacrifice animals using their specific method has alot to do with how pre Islamic Pagan Arabs also performed the same sacrifice of a Bakra to their Pagan Gods in Mecca. Mohammad simply continued this Pagan Arab tradition. So far, I've read teekas done by Giani Harbanse Singh, Prof Sahib Singh, Faridkoti Teeta and none of them mention Abraham or anything remotely of what you have translated in that article mentioning Abraham.

You maybe right, but it makes no difference.

Abraham is pre-Islamic and is seen in the Koran as one of the teachers/prophets like Jesus.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Con.../sacrifice.html

Either way if you are right it still is relevant, because Muhammed is carrying on the sacrifice tradition. The key word is sacrifice.

See here according to Dr HS Singha:

We must give the rationale behind prescribing jhatka meat as the approved food for the Sikhs. According to the ancient Aryan Hindu tradition, only such meat as is obtained from an animal which is killed with one stroke of the weapon causing instantaneous death is fit for human consumption. However, with the coming of Islam into India and the Muslim political hegemony, it became a state policy not to permit slaughter of animals for food, in any other manner, except as laid down in the Quran - the kosher meat prepared by slowly severing the main blood artery of the throat of the animal while reciting verses from the Quran. It is done to make slaughter a sacrifice to God and to expiate the sins of the slaughter. Guru Gobind Singh took a rather serious view of this aspect of the whole matter. He, therefore, while permitting flesh to be taken as food repudiated the whole theory of this expiatory sacrifice and the right of ruling Muslims to impose iton the non-Muslims. Accordingly, he made jhatka meat obligatory for those Sikhs who may be interested in taking meat as a part of their food.

Sikhism, A Complete Introduction, Dr. H.S.Singha & Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press

Thanks for your searching questions.

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Wrong on all accounts:

1) I did not write the essay (although I edited it)

2) The Abrahamic ritual is generic, it is only you putting it into the context of Bakra Eid.

3) The Abrahamic ritual explains what sacrifice in the name of God is about.

4) Whether you have a Bakra, Chicken, or elephant is irrelevant, what is relevant is the sacrifice in the name of God.

You maybe right, but it makes no difference.

Abraham is pre-Islamic and is seen in the Koran as one of the teachers/prophets like Jesus.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Con.../sacrifice.html

Either way if you are right it still is relevant, because Muhammed is carrying on the sacrifice tradition. The key word is sacrifice.

See here according to Dr HS Singha:

We must give the rationale behind prescribing jhatka meat as the approved food for the Sikhs. According to the ancient Aryan Hindu tradition, only such meat as is obtained from an animal which is killed with one stroke of the weapon causing instantaneous death is fit for human consumption. However, with the coming of Islam into India and the Muslim political hegemony, it became a state policy not to permit slaughter of animals for food, in any other manner, except as laid down in the Quran - the kosher meat prepared by slowly severing the main blood artery of the throat of the animal while reciting verses from the Quran. It is done to make slaughter a sacrifice to God and to expiate the sins of the slaughter. Guru Gobind Singh took a rather serious view of this aspect of the whole matter. He, therefore, while permitting flesh to be taken as food repudiated the whole theory of this expiatory sacrifice and the right of ruling Muslims to impose iton the non-Muslims. Accordingly, he made jhatka meat obligatory for those Sikhs who may be interested in taking meat as a part of their food.

Sikhism, A Complete Introduction, Dr. H.S.Singha & Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press

Thanks for your searching questions.

Has any of the great translators of Guru Granth Sahib ever translated that Shabad to mean what you or the person who wrote that translation? So far I've not found a single referance to Abraham as the person who made that English translation did. The reason Bakra is significant is because this is THE TRADITIONAL animal of Qurbani during Bakra Eid. It makes no sense that if BHagat Kabir Jee was trying writing in context to Abraham's story which in the Islamic tradition hint towards Bakra Eid then logically it would mention a Bakra and not a chicken.

I don't have a problem with people eating meat or not eating meat. The problem I have is when people translate Gurbani to furthur their agenda.

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It is ridiculous to call those who believe that all Sikhs are meant to be vegetarian Vaishnavites. Mahan warriors such as Baba Bir Singh ji Naurangabad, Baba Maharaj Singh ji, and Sant Jarnail Singh ji all advocated strict vegetarianism, yet can hardly be considered vaishnavite pacifists.

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Hi there,

This is another fool.

So, let me start.........

I don't know why we always start arguing over meat and non-meat. I really find it strange that some learned scholars who are vegetarians themselves, but agree that Sikhs can eat meat.

Let try to simple down the things:

Question: Why we are in this world?

Answer: Given a chance to reach/meet/merge Waheguru/GOD through the use of physical body. We are NOT born to fight. But while walking on the path of GOD one needs to be a warrior against injustice. And not that we have to leave the pursit of Waheguru and be only warrior. We are NOT Karaks or Avatars who are here for a specific purpose to kill the evil or to preach others.

Question: Why we eat anything?

Answer: To retain the physical body. One needs to maintain his/her body in order to do bhagti/naam simran.

Question: If other products are available for consumption, then why somebody eats meat?

Answer: Because his/her tongue likes it. Period. In other terms, it's Free Will wants it. At the same time Free Will is restricted by his/her own karmas.

Question: Common quote is that history proves that warrior needs meat. Is that correct?

Answer: Decide yourself. If you say yes, then it means that all Guru Gobind Singh Ji's army does consume meat all the time because they were all the time in wars. If they eat meat all the time, then all the Gurdwaras since that time should distribute meat in langar but that is NOT the case. So, decide yourself.

Question: Another common quote is that warriors and family man needs tamo-guna diet because of their respective duties. Is that correct?

Answer: Decide yourself. From nutrients point of view, soya has more proteins as compated to any meat. From Tamo-Gun point of view, why alchohol and tobacco are not allowed...they also have high tamo-gun factor? Also, tamo gun could be taken from Onion and Garlic without the need of meat. What my personal thinking is that GOD has created everything in HIS creation: All kinds of food: Sato, Rajo, and Tamo.......then why we ignore the high tamo foods like Onion, Garlic etc. and always look for meat as tamo gun food??

Question: What is the defination of warrior?

Answer: Who fights against the injustice towards any person/country and NOT those who are born in warrior class (Nihang or Rajput etc.). If this is the case, how could a warrior fight for injustice with impure mind?? Decide yourself.

Question: Is it ok to have meat under any condition?

Answer: I think it might be ok if there is such situation. But I personally been never in such a situation till now.

Question: Has the green signal giver of meat tried it practically?

Answer: Probably not. Let's try: Have meat for one full month and also do the Naam Simran after consuming meat. Then another month have vegatebles and juice and also do the Naam Simran after consuming vegetables. You should feel the difference because Pure food leads to pure mind.

Now, the warrior class also needs concentration while in the battle-field because without concentration warriors cannot win battles. Concentration reduces with Meat.

Question: Is it possible that any 10 Sikh Gurus eat meat at any point of time?

Answer: May or may not possible. The bottom line is: They were Karaks and therefore did NOT have any good/bad karmas associated with any of their deed/karma. But I knew one thing for sure that: All the Guru does have the capacity to give life to dead. Many Sakhis are available proving that They did bring back the dead animals. If we (non-vegetarians) say that Guru Ji also eat meat or did hunting, then why we never tried to bring back the dead animal?? If we have the power to bring back the dead animal to life then yes we can kill and eat meat. Never try to mirror the Guru.

Question: Has anyone heard from Puran Sant/Mahapurash that a Amritdhari Singh (either a Bhagat or Warrior) has eatten meat?

Answer: At least I have NOT heard from: Sant Baba Karam Singh Ji Hotimardan Wale, Sant Baba Attar Singh Ji Reru Sahib Wale, Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji Rara Sahib wale. In-fact I have read that eating meat is prohibited by Panj Payars during Amrit Sanchar since yesteryears.

Question: Is it ok to always quarrel about meat and be vegetarian?

Answer: NO. Arguing over meat and don't doing Naam Simran and achieving Brahmgyan is hopocrisy. Gurbani states that arguing is nothing. We should NOT spend our life in deciding whether meat is allowed or not.....or in history who consumed etc..... after-all the real thing does NOT lie in technicality.

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Topic closed- We believe everyone had their points across and enough has been said on this topic. Let the readers decide the rest. Author of the topic, please don't create another meat topic on this forum, there are already enough topics on the forum regarding meat both had pro meat and anti-meat views balanced. We discourage forum topics revolving around one issue which goes in circles for extended period of time. Lets focus on gurbani and other issues in the panth. Any new threads of meat- pro or anti will be removed from the forum at this point. We are not totally banning topic of discussing meat both- pro or anti views, because we don't believe in censorship. However, we believe in cool off period so that members of the forum can focus on other topics than idolizing one topic which goes around in circles.

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