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Why Can't People Debate In A Rational Manner Here?


randip singh

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A general question, and something I picked up from the debate with Guru Da Sikh.

As a neutral and outsider, I observed Guru Da Sikh trying to debate in a rational manner, where everyone else just behaved like the "m o r o n i c" fools at sikhsangat and proceeded to attack the person rather than debate.

What is it with the mentality of some people here?

Some of the points on both sides made sense in between the diatribe. As a neutral, I have become even more intrigued to find out what Kala Afghana has written. So the Yaah booh crowd have actually done the complete opposite of what they wanted.

Some of the points made are no different to what I have read or believe.

1) What is wrong with a religion that concentrates on moral conduct rather than miracles and magic? I believe their were no miracles in Sikhi, am I heretic?

2) What if Afghana disagrees with some things? Bandha Bahdhur changed the Sikh salutation to "Fateh Darshan". Should we excommunicate him?

3) Groups like AKJ, GNNSJ, DDT, Raroanwalay changes definitions and practices in Sikhi as they see fit, shouldn't they be excommunicated? I really see no difference between Afghana people from tehse other groups.

4) Is Sikhi that intolerant that we cannot embrace diversity?

5) Are we in the process of creating an elite-Brahman type group in Sikhi that lays down the law, and everyone else is declared a heretic?

6) I don't believe all of Dasam Granth was penned by the 10th Master, but I consider it a valuable Sikh manuscript. Am I heretic too?

7) When people call for Afghanist's to be killed, what do outsiders think of us?

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Ah, SikhSangat

What a bunch of retards, srsly. You can't expect retards to be rational.

On a serious note though, they are blinded by their new ideology, dreamt up in student's unions in Canada and the UK, and labour under the delusion that only their ideas and no other interpretation that has come about in the last 500 years is valid. Dogma is anathema to rationality.

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Ah, SikhSangat

What a bunch of retards, srsly. You can't expect retards to be rational.

On a serious note though, they are blinded by their new ideology, dreamt up in student's unions in Canada and the UK, and labour under the delusion that only their ideas and no other interpretation that has come about in the last 500 years is valid. Dogma is anathema to rationality.

Thank you Randip Singh ji. It is exactly what I have been trying to tell this forum that Guru ji taught us to use the Sword of Spiritual Wisdom from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. But these fellows only believe in filthy, foul and threatening language. Prime example, look at the replying post by cul right here. They just can not come up with any rational & logical points from Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to prove or disapprove any concepts. That’s because majority of these have not read more than 10 pages of Gurbani and that probably too without any analysis at all. All they do is listen to anything somebody wearing a chola and round dastar will say. Somehow that attire is supposed to be some sort of a STAMP to prove that you are a Sikh, yet not even once in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji any of this dress code specified. When we read Gurbani with one focus, that being to gain Guru’s Gyan, then we start to learn that majority of the time Gurbani addresses our mind and not body. Hence, there is need to change our thoughts and eventually our actions. I am sure if everybody could understand this concept and implement in our lives, we will have so much respect for our Guru ji and Sikhs WORLDWIDE !

Just to let you know, and I am sure you have noticed it too, that my responses are being censored by the administration now. I posted answers to all questions posted by the Sheedyan nearly 10 hours ago and those are yet to be posted and I suspect that parts they feel that these fellows are either incapable or unable to answer will be deleted. Even though all of my answers are backed by actual shabads from Gurbani along with page numbers, I doubt it will be posted uncut.

Admin Note: Please check your pm- Guru Da Sikh

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What was rational about his approach? The exact points he raised have been debunked many times on this and other fora. A quick search would given him his answers, if he was genuinely interested. Everyone has slightly different views - that's ok. This lot are different though.

If a dog keeps biting your anklels again and again, the only way to stop him is to ise a stick. Those of us who have been here for some time have seen it all before. Criticise Sikhsangat all you want, but if you search through the posts, you will find correct answers for most of the questions raised - some of the old debates on there are pretty good. They have over 10000 registered users, I'm sure they aren't all the same.

As for your views - I wouldn't say you were heretic, just a bit ignorant or misinformed at the moment (said with pyaar, not mailice veera). You can't really group DDT and AKJ together, who are the other ones you mention?

Have you read what Guru sahib says to do to anyone who does nindya of your Guru? "Don let nindya of your Guru enter you ear - offer 'peht' your kirpan to such a person" (Gur Ki Nindy Suno Na Kahn......)

If someone has been shown how flawed his logic is, how wrong his argument is and how insulting his views are, again and again and he doesn't stop - actually increases his anti-Sikh preaching, releases videos that insult Mahapursh, calls sections of Gurbani that he doesn't comprehend names, there is only solution - to let dharmraja deal with him by getting him a ticket on the next flight out.

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Guru Da Sikh

Your inference that it is the Chola that makes the Bhrahmgiani is so resoundingly rational, with such little trace of ignorace that I am forced to bow to your 'wisdom'.

Of course, anyone that disagrees with you is irrational; I reiterate, dogma is anathema to rationality.

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I think that "Guru Da Sikh" is the same person on Sikh Sangat forum who goes by the name The Khalsa Fauj.

Nothing rational about Guru Da Sikh's approach. He starts off by trying to offend other members here. When ever he talks of Sants he add quotes around their name like this: Hari "Singh" Randawewalay. What is he trying to prove by doing this? It's obvious he wants to offend others here. Then when I didn't say anything to him offensively, he makes an attack on Nanaksar by saying they have alot of scandles in their Thaaths because they read Charitro Pakyaan. He again did this to offend us. When I replied similarly by pointing out that Kala Afghana charges of sexual misconduct, he had a history of pedophilia he conveniently chose ignored it. Such double standards. Such people cannot be debated with.

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Guru Da Sikh

Your inference that it is the Chola that makes the Bhrahmgiani is so resoundingly rational, with such little trace of ignorace that I am forced to bow to your 'wisdom'.

Of course, anyone that disagrees with you is irrational; I reiterate, dogma is anathema to rationality.

Can you supply some sort of documented proof from Gurbani or Panthic Rehat Meryada that requires a Sikh to be defined by his attire only, especially the Chola. Where does it says that sants can only be defined by Cholas? Guru ji actually rejected this concept of being “religious” based on your outer look and dress code. Read Gurbani (page 476) and Guru ji says:

aasaa ||

gaj saadtae thai thai dhhotheeaa thiharae paaein thag ||

galee jinhaa japamaaleeaa lottae hathh nibag ||

oue har kae sa(n)th n aakheeahi baanaaras kae t(h)ag ||1||

aisae sa(n)th n mo ko bhaavehi ||

ddaalaa sio paeddaa gattakaavehi ||1|| rehaao ||

baasan maa(n)j charaavehi oopar kaat(h)ee dhhoe jalaavehi ||

basudhhaa khodh karehi dhue choolaeh saarae maanas khaavehi ||2||

oue paapee sadhaa firehi aparaadhhee mukhahu aparas kehaavehi ||

sadhaa sadhaa firehi abhimaanee sagal kutta(n)b ddubaavehi ||3||

jith ko laaeiaa thith hee laagaa thaisae karam kamaavai ||

kahu kabeer jis sathigur bhaettai punarap janam n aavai ||4||2||

Aasaa:

They wear loin cloths, three and a half yards long, and triple-wound sacred threads.

They have rosaries around their necks, and they carry glittering jugs in their hands.

They are not called Saints of the Lord - they are thugs of Benares. ||1||

Such 'saints' are not pleasing to me;

they eat the trees along with the branches. ||1||Pause||

They wash their pots and pans before putting them on the stove, and they wash the wood before lighting it.

They dig up the earth and make two fireplaces, but they eat the whole person! ||2||

Those sinners continually wander in evil deeds, while they call themselves touch-nothing saints.

They wander around forever and ever in their self-conceit, and all their families are drowned. ||3||

He is attached to that, to which the Lord has attached him, and he acts accordingly.

Says Kabeer, one who meets the True Guru, is not reincarnated again. ||4||2||

Do all AmritDhari Sikhs wear Cholas to work in Europe or North America? If they don’t does that make them non-Sikhs even if they do their Nitnem and follow Sikhi Code of Conduct at all times?

You are so narrow minded in your views that you hone in on one single word and lose the actual concept being discussed. In order to accommodate more Gurmat Gyan, you will need to open up your mind.

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I think that "Guru Da Sikh" is the same person on Sikh Sangat forum who goes by the name The Khalsa Fauj.

Nothing rational about Guru Da Sikh's approach. He starts off by trying to offend other members here. When ever he talks of Sants he add quotes around their name like this: Hari "Singh" Randawewalay. What is he trying to prove by doing this? It's obvious he wants to offend others here. Then when I didn't say anything to him offensively, he makes an attack on Nanaksar by saying they have alot of scandles in their Thaaths because they read Charitro Pakyaan. He again did this to offend us. When I replied similarly by pointing out that Kala Afghana charges of sexual misconduct, he had a history of pedophilia he conveniently chose ignored it. Such double standards. Such people cannot be debated with.

Well according to Gurbani, making unfounded allegations against others is NINDYA. You just violated this Sikhi Code of Conduct.

Let me state that I am an individual Amritdhari Sikh who simply wants to make sure that people, especially Sikhs, follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji in entirety, without exception.

As for Khalsa Fauj, thanks for guiding me and others to that blog! Based on the fact that they may have irritated you in the same way I have (unwillingly) goes to show, may be they & I have some views in common ! I will check out their blogs too.

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Thank you Randip Singh ji. It is exactly what I have been trying to tell this forum that Guru ji taught us to use the Sword of Spiritual Wisdom from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. But these fellows only believe in filthy, foul and threatening language. Prime example, look at the replying post by cul right here. They just can not come up with any rational & logical points from Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to prove or disapprove any concepts. That’s because majority of these have not read more than 10 pages of Gurbani and that probably too without any analysis at all. All they do is listen to anything somebody wearing a chola and round dastar will say. Somehow that attire is supposed to be some sort of a STAMP to prove that you are a Sikh, yet not even once in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji any of this dress code specified. When we read Gurbani with one focus, that being to gain Guru’s Gyan, then we start to learn that majority of the time Gurbani addresses our mind and not body. Hence, there is need to change our thoughts and eventually our actions. I am sure if everybody could understand this concept and implement in our lives, we will have so much respect for our Guru ji and Sikhs WORLDWIDE !

Just to let you know, and I am sure you have noticed it too, that my responses are being censored by the administration now. I posted answers to all questions posted by the Sheedyan nearly 10 hours ago and those are yet to be posted and I suspect that parts they feel that these fellows are either incapable or unable to answer will be deleted. Even though all of my answers are backed by actual shabads from Gurbani along with page numbers, I doubt it will be posted uncut.

Admin Note: Please check your pm- Guru Da Sikh

All due respect I don't think Cul said anything bad to you.

I suggest maybe a time out and a cool head. Take each point of your critics and address in a cool manner with cited references. This will separate the Nindaks from genuine debaters.

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Can you supply some sort of documented proof from Gurbani or Panthic Rehat Meryada that requires a Sikh to be defined by his attire only, especially the Chola. Where does it says that sants can only be defined by Cholas? Guru ji actually rejected this concept of being “religious” based on your outer look and dress code.

If you read my reply (rationally of course) you will see that this is what I said; and if you read your post to which I was replying (also rationally, of course), you will see that it was you who implied that the chola makes the Bhramgiani, and not I. You also imply that a Bhramgiani can't wear a chola (you may want to look up false logic). Now, you're probably going to come on here and make all sorts of noise about how you said no such thing, to which I must point out that your lack of understanding of what it is you have written is not my responsibility (I have seen you attack people for having a better vocabulary than yourself, so I feel I must point this out; which leads us to another point - if you yourself don't know the meaning of what it is you say, how can anyone else? Assuming, of course, that I am right.)

You are so narrow minded in your views that you hone in on one single word and lose the actual concept being discussed. In order to accommodate more Gurmat Gyan, you will need to open up your mind.

You're telling me! haha I love irony (in a wholly rational manner of course).

You are so defensive, misconstruing every reply to your posts as an attack ('rationally' of course), that you don't realise you're behaving like the village madman throwing his crap at everyone that passes by. I thank you, wholeheartedly, for proving every single point I made in my first post on this thread.

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Guys, all I can read from you replies is, YOu said that, You said that. Why don't you analyse the points and answer those. If there are no points and they are verbal assaults, ignore them.

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Problem is, if he is trying to reply to my post and doesn't understand what I said in the first place, his whole reply is irrelevant. He's just proving your point, think of him (or her, we shan't have any sexism here!) as an in-house labrat, perfect for observing the behaviour of the aforementioned villagidioticus crapchuckitus, a species unfortunately not quite on the brink of extinction.

Funnily enough he is the most irrational person on this thread...and has magically shifted the focus from rational argument to Sants (again, typical SS behaviour; despite their hatred for Sants it's all they seem to talk about).

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I think that "Guru Da Sikh" is the same person on Sikh Sangat forum who goes by the name The Khalsa Fauj.

Nothing rational about Guru Da Sikh's approach. He starts off by trying to offend other members here. When ever he talks of Sants he add quotes around their name like this: Hari "Singh" Randawewalay. What is he trying to prove by doing this? It's obvious he wants to offend others here. Then when I didn't say anything to him offensively, he makes an attack on Nanaksar by saying they have alot of scandles in their Thaaths because they read Charitro Pakyaan. He again did this to offend us. When I replied similarly by pointing out that Kala Afghana charges of sexual misconduct, he had a history of pedophilia he conveniently chose ignored it. Such double standards. Such people cannot be debated with.

Mahakaal Kee Jai!

"Guru Da Sikh" person is not me. Please don't make things up. It is always best to verify before posting something. Thank you very much.

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A general question, and something I picked up from the debate with Guru Da Sikh.

As a neutral and outsider, I observed Guru Da Sikh trying to debate in a rational manner, where everyone else just behaved like the "m o r o n i c" fools at sikhsangat and proceeded to attack the person rather than debate.

What is it with the mentality of some people here?

Some of the points on both sides made sense in between the diatribe. As a neutral, I have become even more intrigued to find out what Kala Afghana has written. So the Yaah booh crowd have actually done the complete opposite of what they wanted.

Some of the points made are no different to what I have read or believe.

1) What is wrong with a religion that concentrates on moral conduct rather than miracles and magic? I believe their were no miracles in Sikhi, am I heretic?

2) What if Afghana disagrees with some things? Bandha Bahdhur changed the Sikh salutation to "Fateh Darshan". Should we excommunicate him?

3) Groups like AKJ, GNNSJ, DDT, Raroanwalay changes definitions and practices in Sikhi as they see fit, shouldn't they be excommunicated? I really see no difference between Afghana people from tehse other groups.

4) Is Sikhi that intolerant that we cannot embrace diversity?

5) Are we in the process of creating an elite-Brahman type group in Sikhi that lays down the law, and everyone else is declared a heretic?

6) I don't believe all of Dasam Granth was penned by the 10th Master, but I consider it a valuable Sikh manuscript. Am I heretic too?

7) When people call for Afghanist's to be killed, what do outsiders think of us?

Sikhism does lays a great emphasis on moral conduct. That is why a thief like kala afghana is condemned.

Do not compare Baba Banda singh with a rapist and thug kala afghana.

These are the organizations who have sacrificed immensely for sikh panth whenever there was a need for it. Can you expect a traitor like kala afghana or darshan Ragi to sacrifice for sikhi. these are paid agents of Brahmins.

Sikh religion is regulated by Akal takhat. Please ask them this question. Anything that ridicules our Gurus philosophy is condemnable.

heretics are heretics. they flout the rehat maryada.

Of course you are. What methodolgy you used to arrive at your decision about Dasam granth. Line out here. Have you read dasam Granth?

No one has said like that.

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Mahakaal Kee Jai!

"Guru Da Sikh" person is not me. Please don't make things up. It is always best to verify before posting something. Thank you very much.

He may not be you, but you both are just different sides of the same coin. It does not seem like a mere coincidence to me that you both appear here within two days starting your Kala Afghanist agenda here. Good luck to you and your brother "Guru da Sikh" in trying to convince us to become Naastiks like you.

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He may not be you, but you both are just different sides of the same coin. It does not seem like a mere coincidence to me that you both appear here within two days starting your Kala Afghanist agenda here. Good luck to you and your brother "Guru da Sikh" in trying to convince us to become Naastiks like you.

Ya right! You are my brother too but how can you say I am naastic? Please don't make false claims to defame Akaalis.

Brother, what is your definiton of naastic? Someone who preaches Gurmat? Was Bhai Kahan Singh Naba a naastic?

I just checked and saw that Guru Da Sikh has been posting since June 4. I just posted because you mentioned my name for no reason. You remember me and I show up. Haha! I don't know where Guru Da Sikh person is from. I am from Malton.

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Kala afghana gang is expert at lying. How does kahan singh nabha comes in the picture here?

Bhai Ji! Let me understand your chariter. Are you trying to label me as kala afgana gang? I don't belong to kala afgana gang. Kala Afgana doesn't know how to respect others. He talks in ego and uses foul language at times. I don't know how I fit into kala afgana gang then. I didn't quote kala afgana, I didn't tell you to read kala afgana, I didn't link you to a kala afgana article, why are you forcefully labelling me as a kala afgana agent? Please clarify. I am just asking if Kahan Singh Nabha was a naastic because I don't know who fits the bill for naastic and who doesn't.

Naastic Aastic Chakar is baad bebaad.

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Sikhism does lays a great emphasis on moral conduct. That is why a thief like kala afghana is condemned.

But someone argues that Afghana described Sikhi as just a set of moral conduct and that was wrong. Either Afgana is right on this point or he is wrong. You seem to be saying you agree with Afghana that Sikhi is a set of moral principles.

Do not compare Baba Banda singh with a rapist and thug kala afghana.

Actually it is a good comparison, because he too was labelled a thug, and disowned by many Sikhs at the time. He made changes such as "Fateh Darshan".....yet rather than excommunicate him people sought compromise.

These are the organizations who have sacrificed immensely for sikh panth whenever there was a need for it. Can you expect a traitor like kala afghana or darshan Ragi to sacrifice for sikhi. these are paid agents of Brahmins.

Where is your proof they are paid agents of Brahmins?

What great sacrifices have the groups I listed made for Sikhi? Please list them?

Sikh religion is regulated by Akal takhat. Please ask them this question. Anything that ridicules our Gurus philosophy is condemnable.

I cannot see anything here that ridicules the Guru's philosophy. Please cite examples.

heretics are heretics. they flout the rehat maryada.

So AKJ must be heretics , they have tried to redefine the word, changed the 5k's and numerous other quirks.

Of course you are. What methodolgy you used to arrive at your decision about Dasam granth. Line out here. Have you read dasam Granth?

Learn to debate like a human being. This is not about me.

For your information I have read Dasam Granth.

No one has said like that.

Somebody in another debate said Afghana's followers should be killed. Try and follow the debate.

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Bhai Ji! Let me understand your chariter. Are you trying to label me as kala afgana gang? I don't belong to kala afgana gang. Kala Afgana doesn't know how to respect others. He talks in ego and uses foul language at times. I don't know how I fit into kala afgana gang then. I didn't quote kala afgana, I didn't tell you to read kala afgana, I didn't link you to a kala afgana article, why are you forcefully labelling me as a kala afgana agent? Please clarify. I am just asking if Kahan Singh Nabha was a naastic because I don't know who fits the bill for naastic and who doesn't.

Naastic Aastic Chakar is baad bebaad.

Unfortunately it seems to be symptomatic of some people who have come over from sikhsangat to here. They do not debate the issue but instead point fingers at the person writing.

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