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[Guru da Sikh]

Sit back and chew it.

http://www.panthic.org/news/125/ARTICLE/3852/2008-01-31.html

Ragi Fails to Show Up for Challenge at Takht Sahib; Banned from Panthic Stages

Thursday 31st of January 2008

Panthic Weekly News Bureau

View more pictures of Panthic Conclave

Massive Conclave by Panthic Organizations and Scholars

Ragi Darshan Singh Fails the Panthic Challenge, Banned by Sangat

Takht Sri Damdama Sahib, Sabo-ki-Talwandi (KP) - At a historic convention, attended by representatives and scholars from dozens of prominent Panthic organizations, unanimous resolutions were passed condemning the recent ramblings by the controversial ragi Darshan Singh in which he had outrightly rejected the Bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

The conclave was organized by Panthic organizations at Takht Sri Damdama Sahib, Sabo-ki-Talwandi on January 31st. The organizers had invited ragi Darshan Singh and his supporters to come to the venue to openly discuss the issues and concerns that they had over Dasam Granth with learned Sikh scholars in a civil manner. Past directives from Sri Akal Takht Sahib strictly forbid unnecessary criticism and debates on Dasam Granth, but allow the option for Panthic scholars to respond to those criticisms.

Ragi a No-Show

As expected, ragi Darshan Singh failed to show up for the discussion at the Takht Sahib convention. Instead, he took out a paid advertisement in a fringe newspaper further condemning the Dasam Granth and touting that even the validity of certain Nitem Banis (daily prayers) are in question.

These types of statements by the ragi have incensed Panthic organizations who attest that the Nitnem Banis written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji are a vital part of the Sikh Panth's Rahit Maryada and do not need any debating by such faithless cynics. They criticized Darshan Singh for not showing up for the Panthic challenge, and labeled him a mere ‘paper tiger’ and hollow puppet of anti-Sikh forces.

While the conference was open to everyone from all sides of the Dasam Granth debate, not a single representative from the ragi camp showed up for the challenge—proving that they could not discuss these issues with the Sangat face-to-face. Scholars present at the conclave brought more than 150 historical and contemporary references in support of Dasam Bani, just in case the cynics wanted to review the material themselves.

During this convention, the following resolutions were passed by the Panthic organizations under the aegis of the Takht Sri Damdama Sahib :

1) All Panthic Jathebandis and Sikh Scholars present at the convention held on January 31, 2008 at Sabo Ki Talwandi denounce the efforts of Prof. Darshan Singh Ragi to malign the status of Sri Dasam Granth.

2) The convention feels that by not attending the debate, Prof. Darshan Singh has accepted his defeat in the challenges posed by Panthic Jathebandis. His absence from the conference proves that he is promoting wrongful propaganda against Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. This further exposes the double standards of Prof. Darshan Singh as in past he has released various recordings of shabads from the Sri Dasam Granth. Such hypocrisy remains a mystery for everyone.

3) The convention held today appeals to the Sikh Sangat residing in Punjab and foreign countries to refrain from communicating with such selfish ‘preachers.’ It is also being pressed that the Delhi Sikh Gurdwara Management Committee refrains from allowing such charlatans to convey misinformation from Gurdwara Sahibs.

4) Sikh masses present at the convention are open to discuss the contents of Sri Dasam Granth with individuals ignorant on the topic at any time in future.

The Sikh organizations requested that the controversial ragi not be allowed to utilize Panthic stages at any Gurdwara Sahib worldwide and have also further requested that he be summoned by Sri Akal Takht Sahib for his blasphemous behavior.

Speakers and Scholars at the Convention

More than a dozen scholars from various Panthic organizations spoke on this occasion, in support of Guru Gobind Singh's Bani,. Universally, they condemned the ragi's recent comments on Dasam Bani, and requested action be taken by Sri Akal Takht Sahib according to Panthic norms and guidelines.

Jathedar Nandgarh addressing the Panthic Conclave

The speakers included :

Jathedar Giani Balwant Singh Nandgarh (Takht Sri Damdama Sahib) - Jathedar Balwant Singh was the first speaker to address the conclave at this historic Takht. He declared that ragi Darshan Singh’s use of derogatory language against Dasam Granth would not be tolerated by the Panth, and then gave permission for the scholars to address the Sangat.

Bhai Gopal Singh (Swami Brahdev) - In his speech, Bhai Sahib took exception to ragi Darshan Singh misquoting the Gurbani of Gur Ram Das Sahib Ji in a recent advertisement where he refers to those who believe in Dasam Patshah’s Bani as lost manmukhs. Darshan Singh had paid the ex-communicated Spokesman newspaper editor Joginder Sahney to print an advertisement in which certain Gurbani panktis were misquoted. Bhai Gopal Singh then shared the real interpretation of those panktis with the Sangat and stated that it was individuals such as Darshan Singh who are misguided and not the Sangat.

He then shared verses from Bachittar Natak and Chritropakyan with complementary verses from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that have the same central theme and message. He concluded his lecture, by listing the names of scholars and intellectuals with university degrees in connection to Dasam Granth from various universities.

Does anybody need to prove the CONFUSED MENTALITY of these Pro Dasam Granth boys? How confused is your side that a person has two names: Swami Brahm Dev and to avoid embarrassment on Panthic Stages your side stoops and gives him the name Gopal ‘SINGH’. And you call this dude a scholar. Why a person who has not taken Khande di Pahul becomes some sort of a representative for YOU DASAM GRANTH BOYS? I KNOW, BECAUSE YOU CAN NOT GET ANYBODY WHO ACTUALLY READS, UNDERSTANDS & FOLLOWS GURBANI FROM Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji?

Moreover, WHO IS BETTER THAN THE ORIGINAL WRITERS OF THIS DASAM GRANTH, Nirmalays TO EXPLAIN IT TOO?

Here is a link to a video on youtube

where this so called scholar and Amritdhari Sikh of Dasam Patshah of Dasam Granth is FULLY DECORATED IN FULL KAKAARS.

I am sorry I thought that Mala or Janeu around his neck was a Gatra for the Karpan!

And what about the Taksali Meryada that Khalsa should stick to only four colors for his or her attire. Is this Bhagvaan (pink) color, another one Taksal added to accommodate these Banarasi Sikhs.

How convenient for these so called ‘scholars’ to send a challenge to 70 year old Prof. Darshan Singh sitting in Canada to get him to APPEAR before them at THEIR OWN CONVENIENCE.

Note : Bhai Gopal Singh’s is often referred to as Swami Brahdev, which was his original name. He took Amrit at Sri Akal Takht Sahib during the 1980’s on behest of Baba Avtar Singh of Badhni-kalan when Darshan Singh was the acting Jathedar.

Dr. Anokh Singh - Spoke on the correlation of the concept of Miri-Piri between Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the Dasam Granth with regards to the correlation between Sri Harmandir Sahib and Sri Akal Takht Sahib. He stated that saroops of Dasam Granth have historically existed at the Sikh Takhts and are both symbols of Khalsa ‘s Miri.

Note : Dr. Anokh Singh is also a close realtive of Baba Gurbachan Singh Khalsa Bhinderanwale.

Giani Sher Singh Ambala Ji Nihang – Giani Ji presented to the Sangat copies of commercial cassettes released by Prof. Darshan Singh containing Bani from Dasam Granth. Giani queried the Sangat, "why did ragi Darshan Singh profit from selling the Bani of Dasam Granth?" He asked, if the Sangat is now being called misguided RSS agents for reciting Dasam Patshah’s Bani, was Prof. Darshan Singh also an RSS agent when he was profiteering personally from the same verses of Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s Bani ? Was Prof. Darshan Singh also being paid by the RSS as he is now accusing us of doing? He further challenged to debate the ragi anywhere he wanted in the future.

Giani Sher Singh Ambala also made a startling allegation that during the 1980’s ragi Darshan Singh used to recite Kirtan in a style that would appeal to the youth so they would join the Kharkoo Singhs (freedom fighters) of that time, and then used to report information about those youths to the intelligence agencies and the police.

Bhai Ratinder Singh Indore (GURSIKH Organization) – Bhai Sahib presented Hukmanas from Dr. Ganda Singh’s famous book “HukamNamas” which refer to Bhai Gurdas Ji II in at least three HukamNamas. Ragi Darshan Singh has repeatedly stated that Bhai Gurdas Ji II has never historically existed. Bhai Sahib also stated that the notion of labeling Dasam Granth as an RSS granth is truly irrational. Bhai Sahib stated that Krishan in Krishana Avtar is referred to as a keet (insect) and shown as a characterless drug addict. In Rama Avtar, Ram is shown in a similar manner along with being a ruthless and merciless king who eliminated his rivals by any means possible. Why would the RSS promote a Granth that is so critical of these demigods, Bhai Sahib questioned.

Bhai Sahib further stated that it is the RSS who truly wants the Sikhs to reject Dasam Granth, since it is harmful to them not to us. It is the critics who are the ones that are pleasing to the RSS. He noted an example of the ex-communicated writer Bhag Singh Ambala who also wrote against Dasam Granth. Bhag Singh Ambala was a known admirer of Krishan, and after reading Krishana Avtar, Bhag Singh complained that Guru Gobind Singh Ji would never write anything against Krishan, so this could not be His Bani.

Bhai Gurbakhsh Singh Mohali - Spoke on the technical aspects of Dasam Granth, the numbering of verses, and many missing portions. Bhai Sahib queried that if the Dasam Granth was the work of ‘Brahmins’ then why did not those clever Brahmins give us complete scriptures? It is an historic fact that Bhai Mani Singh Ji compiled the works of Guru Gobind Singh Ji into a single volume, and noted that some portions were not available or missing, due to the loss the Panth incurred during the evacuation of Anandpur Sahib.

Dr. Anurag Singh - Noted that some of the stories mentioned in the charittars have also been mentioned in Islamic and Sanatan scriptures, and therefore have a historic basis. They have been presented in Charitropakhiyan for guidance purposes. In a dare to test his actual knowledge on Gurmat, Dr. Anurag Singh challenged that if ragi Darshan Singh is a true scholar then I request him to accurately identify 11 differences within Yoga and Sikhism as referenced in the 27,28,29,30 pauris of Japji Sahib.

Baba Baljit Singh Damdami Taksal (Dadu Sahib Wale) – Bhai Sahib also spoke on the glory of Dasam Granth and chastised those who are challenging it’s authenticity. He requested that strict action be action against those individuals.

Bhai Mohkam Singh Ludhiana (Akhand Kirtani Jatha) - Bhai Sahib stated that it is shameful for ragi Darshan Singh to allege that if we believe in Dasam Bani, then we do not respect Guru Granth Sahib Ji. He countered, that in 1978 Singhs from the Akhand Kirtani Jatha and the Damdami Taksal sacrificed their lives for the sanctity of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and they were ready to do that again if the need arises. He asked ragi Darshan Singh and his missionaries if they could show a single sacrifice they had made for the sanctity of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Note: Bhai Mohkam Singh's brother Bhai Gurcharan Singh became Shaheed in 1978 during the Nirankari Vaisakhi Massacre.

Other speakers include :

Bhai Amrik Singh Singh Damdami Taksal, and Bhai Gurdev Singh Damdami Taksal, and Bhai Nagar Singh represented the various Nihang Singh Dals who all spoke on the significance of Dasam Granth and recommended strict action against those who criticize it.

Videos of all speakers will be uploaded in next week’s issue.

[singh2]

Look mate, it's a fair point he has made, why not answer it instead of finger waving and making accusations.

He did answer the point and that answer proved him a liar of the first order. You need to follow all the posts in proper otherwise you are blindly supporting a liar.

[randip singh]

He did answer the point and that answer proved him a liar of the first order. You need to follow all the posts in proper otherwise you are blindly supporting a liar.

all I see is avoidance and nindya from you.

[singh2]

all I see is avoidance and nindya from you.

When you cann't face the facts you attack the person. This is to hide your weakness of being upto the knowledge. It is not nindya. It is a fact and i am willing to puit my money on this. Are you willing to do that ?

[singh2]

Again, I think this comment:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-s...n-redux-10.html

Is appropriate here.

Randip

Instead of pasting up the posts of kala afghana chela, please put your view point.

[Kam1825]

Randip Singh what do you want me to answer, ask it is will answer, it. i have shown "Guru Ghar Da Manmukh" to be a liar from his accusations stating that Sant Hari SIngh Ji ran away from a debate. The video shows otherwise. He called me a liar due as i said the debate was stopped due to a adherance to akal takhat hukum. Again the video proves he was lying.

I am not bothered about the dates of the Naastack Roadshow as being int he UK i will not need to attend or cause any trouble. However if Jeonwala has given an open invite for debates then the dates should be known for the people who wish to take up this opportunity.

[Guru da Sikh]

When you cann't face the facts you attack the person. This is to hide your weakness of being upto the knowledge.

You boys are experts at this quality of personal attacks, if you read your own posts, and that does prove your point i.e. your weakness and your lack of Gurmat Gyan.

It is not nindya. It is a fact and i am willing to puit my money on this. Are you willing to do that ?

You guys can NOT even put up the money for your own scholar to buy him a ticket to get on the plane and debate in Toronto. You need to grow up and see that difference between the Real Canadian dollars and the fake Monopoly money you probably are still playing with!

[Guru da Sikh]

Randip Singh what do you want me to answer, ask it is will answer, it. i have shown "Guru Ghar Da Manmukh" to be a liar from his accusations stating that Sant Hari SIngh Ji ran away from a debate. The video shows otherwise. He called me a liar due as i said the debate was stopped due to a adherance to akal takhat hukum. Again the video proves he was lying.

What you talking about. Your so called Baba, Sant disappeared from the stage in seconds when given the chance. Was he that eager to leave the stage?

I have watched all 6 parts of the video on youtube, NOT JUST THE ONE THAT YOU WANTED EVERYONE TO SEE. But again this is in line with your habits and mindset since you boys have no shame of even taking a single line of Gurbani and twisting its meaning in sinister ways to fit your own motives.

I have posted a complete reply to your questions on this topic already.

I am not bothered about the dates of the Naastack Roadshow as being int he UK i will not need to attend or cause any trouble. However if Jeonwala has given an open invite for debates then the dates should be known for the people who wish to take up this opportunity.

Why don’t you post a list of all of your so called scholar locations as he will be covering all of California, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. I will personally make sure that he includes those few LITTLE houses also, you probably call them MAJOR towns that support Dasam Granth.

[randip singh]

When you cann't face the facts you attack the person. This is to hide your weakness of being upto the knowledge. It is not nindya. It is a fact and i am willing to puit my money on this. Are you willing to do that ?

you said before

He did answer the point and that answer proved him a liar of the first order. You need to follow all the posts in proper otherwise you are blindly supporting a liar.

Who is attacking who again?

[randip singh]

Randip

Instead of pasting up the posts of kala afghana chela, please put your view point.

I ahev no view point and shame on you for calling Gyani ji names.

[randip singh]

Randip Singh what do you want me to answer, ask it is will answer, it. i have shown "Guru Ghar Da Manmukh" to be a liar from his accusations stating that Sant Hari SIngh Ji ran away from a debate. The video shows otherwise. He called me a liar due as i said the debate was stopped due to a adherance to akal takhat hukum. Again the video proves he was lying.

I am not bothered about the dates of the Naastack Roadshow as being int he UK i will not need to attend or cause any trouble. However if Jeonwala has given an open invite for debates then the dates should be known for the people who wish to take up this opportunity.

Please tell me how it helps a civilised debate calling them "Naastack Roadshow"?

They could call you names too, how would you like that?

[shaheediyan]

Randip Singh, with all due respect sir, you seem to be viewing these debates with tunnel vision.

No one has been more rude and insulting here than the alleged Guru da Sikh, especially towards:

1: Respected Mahapurkh;

2: All facets of the Panth;

3: Individual members here and

4: Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj

In my books, there is not much else left in terms of defining a naastik, the word is not used as an insult, but as a fact.

[Kam1825]

Randip do you have selctive reading as well, have you not seen the insults from Guru Da Sikh to Sant Hari Singh Ji, Sampardai Taksals, Nirmalas, Udasis and myself for a start. If he has no respect for my viewpoint i will treat him with the same.

I alwasy say expect to be treated as you treat others. For that reason i have treated him with the level of respect he has treated members on htis forum.

Randip i do understand why you support him as your viewpoints on the Sri Dasam Granth and Sants is similar to his.

[shaheediyan]

"Moreover, WHO IS BETTER THAN THE ORIGINAL WRITERS OF THIS DASAM GRANTH, Nirmalays ( Sikhi Attire) from Banaris TO EXPLAIN IT TOO?"

I have already covered this point, which you conviently ignored, names of the 5 Singhs were also provided. Show us one piece of historical evidence to back up your claim.

[singh2]

I ahev no view point and shame on you for calling Gyani ji names.

Shame on you for supporting a person who is a die hard chela of kala afghana. I did not call him names. I commented on what he writes and preaches.

[Guru da Sikh]

Randip Singh, with all due respect sir, you seem to be viewing these debates with tunnel vision.

Again, you don’t even have a tunnel vision yours is solid & shut from all sides. Here is how;

No one has been more rude and insulting here than the alleged Guru da Sikh, especially towards:

1: Respected Mahapurkh;

2: All facets of the Panth;

3: Individual members here and

4: Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj

In my books, there is not much else left in terms of defining a naastik, the word is not used as an insult, but as a fact.

1. A CONVICTED RAPIST, WHO SPENT THREE YEARS IN JAIL OUT OF 10 YEAR SENTENCE along with Rs 10,1000 FINE, ‘Sant’ Dhanwant Singh Gurdaspuria is sitting on the stage in Nanak Parkash Gurudwara these days in Fresno, California controlled by Dadami Taksal (Harnam Dhuma Faction), the staunch supporters of Dasam Granth. Do you claim him to be a Mahapurkh, because Taksal obviously does? What about ‘Sant’ Maan Singh Pehove Wala, who forced and paid for an underage girl to have an abortion in Amritsar? By the way, that girl’s Chacha who is an Amritdhari Singh and lives in Alberta has stated this on Live Radio? What about the ‘Sant’ Niranjan Singh Grewal from Toronto, who has literally has in his possession one of his Chelas’ wife? I can go on, and give you more examples, if you like!

2. I am the one who is calling for the reinforcement of One Panth & One Granth concept from 10 patshaheean ji’s life times. And that is some sort of disrespect? You boys telling everybody that all of ‘Dasam Granth’ including Charitro Pakhyan (which you boys claim to have come from Kok Shastar’s ( NOT be read to Bibiyan) and penned by Dasam Patshah is showing respect to Guru ji?

3. Your boys calling me ‘Gorai da Sick’, ‘Gorai di Pooch’, ‘Nastik’, ‘Manmukh’, ‘Ignoramous’, ‘Kala Afganist’, ……. is what you call RESPECT to Forum Members?

4. What Dasam Granth Sahib ji Maharaj? Who called it Maharaj? When majority of the Gursikh Intelligentsia is questioning the authenticity of the booklet, how can you say that I am the one who is insulting it? I have every right to question ANYTHING that is OUTSIDE of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

[Guru da Sikh]

"Moreover, WHO IS BETTER THAN THE ORIGINAL WRITERS OF THIS DASAM GRANTH, Nirmalays ( Sikhi Attire) from Banaris TO EXPLAIN IT TOO?"

I have already covered this point, which you conviently ignored, names of the 5 Singhs were also provided. Show us one piece of historical evidence to back up your claim.

Here is an article by Bhai Baldev Singh ji. Give it a good Read. I have made a couple of minor edits.

I would like the author or any other Sikh scholar to shed light on the following questions this story raises.

First of all it is abundantly clear from Aad Guru Granth Sahib (AGGS) and the Banis attributed to Guru Gobind Singh that Gurus Nanak Dev, Arjan Dev and Gobind Singh had sound knowledge of Sanskrit and Hindu mythology. It is also known that they did not go to Varanasi or any other Hindu center to learn Sanskrit and mythology, they learnt it where they grew up in Punjab. This means that Sanskrit teachers were available in Punjab. So what was the particular need for Guru Gobind Singh to send five Sikhs to Varanasi?

Second, there were scholars in Guru Gobind Singh’s court, who translated Sanskrit texts into Braj Bhasa. Were they not competent enough to teach Sanskrit to Sikhs? The Guru Had 52 scholars and poets in his court, couldn’t he hire few Sanskrit teachers for the Sikhs?

Third, if the Guru did send the Sikhs to Varanasi then what were their names and where did they come from? (names are easy to make up, do we have bio data and background information like the original Panj Pyaras?)

Is there any biographical information available about them?

What did those Sikhs do with their knowledge of Sanskrit? Did they teach Sanskrit to Sikhs or translated Gurbani into Sanskrit? Did they translate Sanskrit texts into Braj Bhasa or Punjabi? If so where is the original bani?

Claim, "The battles of Bhangani and Nadaun are described briefly by Guru Gobind Singh Ji in beautiful Braj Bhasa."

Had the author used the same logic which he used in the analysis of "Ub Main Apni Katha Bakhano (Now I Relate My Own Tory)," he would have arrived at a similar conclusion that in no way Guru Gobind Singh is the author of the "Battles of Bhangani and Nandaun."

There are many statements in the "Battles of Bhangani and Nadaun," which are not consistent with the teachings of AGGS. For the sake of briefness, let us examine few statements from the "Battle of Bhangani." In this composition the writer narrates the heroic exploits of Guru Gobind Singh’s cousins, his maternal uncle and others. The writer is caste-conscious and lineage-conscious as he extols the honor of Sodhi clan, and the bravery and the chivalry of Khatris. The writer also says that-- witches, ghosts, evil spirits, bir baitaal (agents of god Shiv Ji) and sidhs (people with supernatural powers)— came to the battle arena to enjoy the scene.

qutI qyg iqRwKI kZy jwmdwZM ] hTI rfKIXM lwj bMsM snwZM ] hiTXo sfihbM cMd KyqM KiqRXfxM ] hny Kfn KunI Kurfsfn BfnM ] zkI zfkxI BUq pRyqM bkfry ] hsy bIr bYqfl aO suwD iswDM ]

(These verses and their meanings are from "Bachittar Natak Steek" by J. P. Singh).

Now compare these verses to Guru Gobind Singh’s Nash Doctrine, he issued as an edict to the Khalsa:

"From now on you are free from varan-ashrarm dharam (caste based religion), karm kand (Hindu rituals and ceremonies), bharam (superstition), kul (family lineage) and krit (caste based occupation restriction."

Can any Sikh believe that Guru Gobind Singh did not believe in what he preached?

Then there are other verses in this composition, which repudiate the essence of Sikh ethics, humility, forgiveness and compassion.

jy jy nr qwh n iBry dIny ngr inkfr ] jy iqh TAur Bly iBry iqnY krI pRiqpfr ]

"Those who did not participate in the battle (to help us) were forced to leave the town, whereas those who did were rewarded."

Sikhs know that Guru Har Gobind Sahib forgave Emperor Jahangir, who was responsible for the death of his father, Guru Arjan Dev. Sikhs also know that Guru Gobind Singh forgave Emperor Aurangjeb, who was responsible for the death of his father, mother, four sons and hundreds of Sikhs. Sikh Gurus were the embodiment of humility, compassion and forgiveness. How could any Sikh in his right mind believe that Guru Gobind Singh forced people to leave the town simply because they did not help him in the battle?

tFg tFg kir hny indfnf ] kUkr ijim iqn qjy pRfnf ]

"(The wicked) ones were tortured and they died like dogs."

Now compare these verses with the story of Bhai Kanhyia. When Sikh complained to Guru Gobind Singh that Bahi Kanhyia was helping the wounded enemies, he hugged Bhai Kanhyia and honored him by calling him a true Sikh. How could any Sikh believe that Guru Gobind Singh degraded his enemies to the level of dogs and tortured them to death?

Moreover, according to historians, a Muslim divine, Pir Budhu Shah lost two sons and many followers in the battle of Bhangani. The Pir was following in the footsteps of Guru Teg Bahadur who sacrificed his life to uphold the "Truth" and the "freedom of conscience". He sacrificed his life to protect the right of Hindus to practice their religion without coercion from the government. Pir Budhu Shah stood shoulder to shoulder with Guru Gobind Singh in his fight against the oppression and bigotry of Mughal rulers and the tyranny of caste system. Can any Sikh believe that while lauding the heroic exploits of his cousins, uncle and other Sikhs in the battle of Bhangani, Guru Gobind Singh would not have made any mention of the sacrifice of Pir Budhu Shah? Was Guru Gobind Singh that ungrateful?

For anyone to suggest that Guru Gobind Singh is the author of the "battles of Bhangani and Nadaun" or "Bachittar Natak" amounts to heaping insults on Guru Gobind Singh and the repudiation of Sikh philosophy.

Claim "No pervious Nanak had written any personal anecdotes in the Guru Granth Sahib and hence this was a good reason that Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not include any of his personal writings in the Guru Granth Sahib."

Here the author is confusing "personal Bani" with "Bani about personal life." The Banis composed by the Gurus were their personal Banis, however, in the Banis of Gurus included in the AGGS, there is scant reference to their personal lives. Similarly, some of the Banis attributed to Guru Gobind Singh, cited by the author in the article, which are consistent with Add Guru Granth Sahib, do not contain any reference to Guru Gobind Singh’s personal life. However, there is one major difference between the Banis attributed to Guru Gobind Singh and the Banis of other Gurus. All the six Gurus, the first five and the ninth, whose Banis are included in the AGGS, wrote their Banis under the name of "Nanak" whereas the Banis attributed to Guru Gobind Singh are under his name. Three Gurus, Hargobind Sahib, Har Rai and Harkrishan Ji did not write any Bani.

When Guru Gobind Singh prepared the Damdami Bir by incorporating Guru Teg Bahadur’s Bani in the text of Pothi Sahib*), he did not add his own Bani. I am not going to speculate why Guru Gobind Singh did not add his Bani, but the fact is that he didn’t. This should not cause any confusion and misunderstanding among the Sikhs. Before his death, Guru Gobind Singh in his infinite wisdom invested Guruship jointly on the teachings enshrined in the Damdami Bir and the collective will of the Sikh community. The present Bir (AGGS) is a copy of Damdami Bir. Thus, AGGS is the "eternal spiritual Guru" and the Sikh Panth is the "temporal Guru."

A Sikh should never loose sight of Guru Gobind Singh’s edict that "spiritual Guru" is the Bani enshrined in AGGS. Any extraneous Bani or writing should be respected as literature and must be tested on the touchstone of AGGS before it is accepted as Sikh literature. Anyone, who equates extraneous Bani with the Bani enshrined in the AGGS, violates Guru Gobind Singh’s edict.

The statement "He only added the Bani of Guru Teg Bahadur in the Pothi Sahib, which had been compiled by Guru Arjan Dev" is not correct.

Pothi Sahib was compiled by Guru Arjan Dev and installed in Harimandiar Sahib in 1604. After the death of Guru Hargobind Sahib, it came into the possession of Dhirmal, older brother of Guru Har Rai. Dhirmal refused to give it to Guru Gobind Singh. It is still in the possession of the descendents of Dhirmal at Kartarpur. Therefore, Guru Gobind Singh most likely used a copy of Pothi Sahib when he prepared the Damdami Bir.

With Thanks to Bhai Baldev Singh ji

[shaheediyan]

You could have taken a respectful approach to raise your disagreements/concerns, but you didn't, so don't be surprised that you have been exposed as a Gorai di Poosh.

As for the crap article you have posted which seems to have been written by an Indian Forest Gump, try reading it, then read my question again, and tell me if you have answered my question, if so, please spoon feed me.

Here is the question again for your convenience:

"Moreover, WHO IS BETTER THAN THE ORIGINAL WRITERS OF THIS DASAM GRANTH, Nirmalays ( Sikhi Attire) from Banaris TO EXPLAIN IT TOO?"

I have already covered this point, which you conviently ignored, names of the 5 Singhs were also provided. Show us one piece of historical evidence to back up your claim.

[randip singh]

Randip do you have selctive reading as well, have you not seen the insults from Guru Da Sikh to Sant Hari Singh Ji, Sampardai Taksals, Nirmalas, Udasis and myself for a start. If he has no respect for my viewpoint i will treat him with the same.

I alwasy say expect to be treated as you treat others. For that reason i have treated him with the level of respect he has treated members on htis forum.

Randip i do understand why you support him as your viewpoints on the Sri Dasam Granth and Sants is similar to his.

I have read both sides and things seem to be loaded against this fellow. It does not seem fair and is very un-Sikh like.

My opinion on Dasam Granth was formulated some 10 years ago when I studied it. Do a search on my writings on this, here is an example:

COMPOSITION OF THE DASAM GRANTH

It is unclear where all the compositions of the Dasam Granth come from. Some may have been commisioned by Guruji from his court poets, while other parts may have been penned by Guruji himself..

Note Dasam Granth is not one work like Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, but a compilation of of writings recovered after the sacking of Anandpur Sahib. Many were lost.

Guruji specifically never included Dasam Granth literature in the Guru Granth Sahib ji, so one can conclude it was for another purpose.

Most of Dasam Granth is written in Braj, Punjabi and Persian.

BELIEF IN HINDU GODS

A common misconception is that Dasam Granth praises Hindu Gods. This is not true. So why are they mentioned? For the following reasons:

1) Illustrative purposes : People must remember the Khalsa had just been formed or was in the process of being formed when this was penned. The Sikhs of that time still understood things in terms of Hinduism and Hindu lore. So to describe concepts of God and complex Sikh concepts Guruji had to use concepts that were familiar to the populace hence (hence tales of Hindu mythology).

An example of this is travelling to an island where there is no electricity......how would you describe it in concepts they understand....fire, water ?

2) The is Only one God: Guruji from the start spends pages upon pages (Japu) describing the form of God "Kaal and Akaal" ..."Salutation to the one Indestructible, Salutation to the indivisible" etc etc.

3) The Hindu Gods Are Not Gods: I Akal Ustati Guruji states "He creates as well as destroys both Brahma and Shiva".......now is not a God immortal and Omnipitent? If Brahma and Shiva can be destroyed then they are not Gods. It futher says "Shiva and Vishnu fail to comprehend him"....surely a God knows everything....if Shiva and Vishnu do not know the nature of God, they cannot be Gods.

It further states under Tomar Chand "He created hundreds of Kings like Indra, many Brahmas and Vishnus, many Ramas, Krishnas and other prophets, but none is acceptable to Him without devotion". Guruji views these "Gods" as prophets and not Gods.

Under Kabitt it states "Many Shivas came to the world and went; Many are incarnation like Krishna and Rama; innumerable are Brahmas and Vishnus, Vedas and Puranas; Many have been authors of Smirtis; They all came and went off; There have been numerous Madrarachal, innumerable Aswini Kumars and equally many progeny of incarnations, but they all have been prey to death." How can a God die? Unless it is ofcourse not a God and a human. and mortal.

From http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&...=t&id=64483

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਮਹੇਸਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਸਚੀਪਿਤ ਅੰਤ ਫਸੇ ਜਮ ਫਾਸਿ ਪਰੈਂਗੇ ॥

ब्रहम महेसर बिसन सचीपित अंत फसे जम फासि परैंगे ॥

Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu and Consort of Sachi (Indra) would ultimately fall in the noose of death.

There are many other examples but one gets the picture that Guruji thought these so called Hindu "Gods" were just mortal, and therefore not Gods.

4) Specific Audience - The Dasam Granth (and Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji) has a specific audience in mind. For most parts it is Hindu`s in Dasam Granth. In Chandi Di Var, Guruji is trying to inspire the low caste Hindu`s, from which Sikh`s are made up of (Jats, Tarkhans, Kalal`s, Julaha`s, Chamar`s etc), to fight by telling them a story of Indian Lore that they will understand.

Epistle of Victory (or Zafarnama), is addressed to Aurengzeb and tell him of his treachery. What is remarkable about it is the Persian it is written in....apparently poetically and grammatically it is perfect.....something Persian`s for the most part cannot get right because it is such a subtle language....for example one could easily describe a cup a instead of an ocean with one misssed stroke.

WHY IS THE DASAM GRANTH IMPORTANT?

It is important because it describes some key events that occurred, for example the Battle of Bhanghani and Chamkaur. It also names specific Sikhs and who was involved where.

It give`s us an insight into the infant Sikh Nation.

It shows us what an accomplished intellectual Guruji was. In it he writes about the French, the Africans etc:

http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&...=t&id=66496

ਫਰਾ ਕੇ ਫਿਰੰਗੀ ਮਾਨੈਂ ਕੰਧਾਰੀ ਕੁਰੈਸੀ ਜਾਨੈਂ ਪਛਮ ਕੇ ਪੱਛਮੀ ਪਛਾਨੈਂ ਨਿਜ ਕਾਮ ਹੈਂ ॥

फरा के फिरंगी मानैं कंधारी कुरैसी जानैं पछम के प्छमी पछानैं निज काम हैं ॥

The people of France and England revere Thee, the inhabitants of Kandhaar and Quraishis know Thee; the people of western side recognize their duty towards Thee.

Tells us about the behaviour of Sikhs and Guruji:

ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਬਨਿ ਖੇਲ ਸਿਕਾਰਾ ॥ ਮਾਰੇ ਰੀਛ ਰੋਝ ਝੰਖਾਰਾ ॥੧॥

भांति भांति बनि खेल सिकारा ॥ मारे रीछ रोझ झंखारा ॥१॥

I went hunting various kinds of animals in the forest and killed bears, nilgais (blue bulls) and elks.1.

ਦੇਸ ਚਾਲ ਹਮ ਤੇ ਪੁਨਿ ਭਈ ॥ ਸਹਰ ਪਾਂਵਟਾ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ ਲਈ ॥

देस चाल हम ते पुनि भई ॥ सहर पांवटा की सुधि लई ॥

Then I left my home and went to place named Paonta.

ਕਾਲਿੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਤਟਿ ਕਰੇ ਬਿਲਾਸਾ ॥ ਅਨਿਕ ਭਾਂਤ ਕੇ ਪੇਖਿ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥੨॥

कालिंद्री तटि करे बिलासा ॥ अनिक भांत के पेखि तमासा ॥२॥

I enjoyed my stay on the banks of Kalindri (Yamuna) and saw amusement of various kind.

ਤਹ ਕੇ ਸਿੰਘ ਘਨੇ ਚੁਨਿ ਮਾਰੇ ॥ ਰੋਝ ਰੀਛ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਬਿਦਾਰੇ ॥

तह के सिंघ घने चुनि मारे ॥ रोझ रीछ बहु भांति बिदारे ॥

There I killed may lions, nilgais and bears.

READ WITH AN OPEN MIND AND UNDERSTANDING

Sikh writings must be understood in their specific, historical, sociological, and economical context. One then gets an image of what is going on:

For example:

1) Kabir writes at the time of the Invasion of Timur and the sacking of Delhi and Benares (which he witnessed), and the slaughter of many innocent Hindu`s.

2) Guru Nanak writes at the time of the invasion of Babur. He witnessed many atrocities.

3) Guruji writes at a time of much strife caused by Aurengzeb

[singh2]

1. A CONVICTED RAPIST, WHO SPENT THREE YEARS IN JAIL OUT OF 10 YEAR SENTENCE along with Rs 10,1000 FINE, ‘Sant’ Dhanwant Singh Gurdaspuria is sitting on the stage in Nanak Parkash Gurudwara these days in Fresno, California controlled by Dadami Taksal (Harnam Dhuma Faction), the staunch supporters of Dasam Granth. Do you claim him to be a Mahapurkh, because Taksal obviously does? What about ‘Sant’ Maan Singh Pehove Wala, who forced and paid for an underage girl to have an abortion in Amritsar? By the way, that girl’s Chacha who is an Amritdhari Singh and lives in Alberta has stated this on Live Radio? What about the ‘Sant’ Niranjan Singh Grewal from Toronto, who has literally has in his possession one of his Chelas’ wife? I can go on, and give you more examples, if you like!

The above is a piece of trash and is irrelevant to the topic. Dhanwant singh news is cooked one and far from truth. He was kicked out of Gurudwara as soon as it was known that he was Dhanwant singh. The gurdwara had nothing to do with Damdami taksal.

Regarding Grewal it is equally untrue. grewal was a masand who had started his own sect. SGGS ji was taken from his dera and that Dera was shuit.

2. I am the one who is calling for the reinforcement of One Panth & One Granth concept from 10 patshaheean ji’s life times. And that is some sort of disrespect? You boys telling everybody that all of ‘Dasam Granth’ including Charitro Pakhyan (which you boys claim to have come from Kok Shastar’s ( NOT be read to Bibiyan) and penned by Dasam Patshah is showing respect to Guru ji?

Our history shows that dasam granth is embedded in sikh psyche from the time of our Gurus. Those who do not agree need to provide refrences form sikh history. You have nothing to show us. Your language for this scripture of sikhs shows that you only have a goonda character.

May we ask the moderator to put this man under moderation and ban him as his aim is not to discuss but use a rogue's language for our scriptures.

3. Your boys calling me ‘Gorai da Sick’, ‘Gorai di Pooch’, ‘Nastik’, ‘Manmukh’, ‘Ignoramous’, ‘Kala Afganist’, ……. is what you call RESPECT to Forum Members?

You deserve much more than that.

4. What Dasam Granth Sahib ji Maharaj? Who called it Maharaj? When majority of the Gursikh Intelligentsia is questioning the authenticity of the booklet, how can you say that I am the one who is insulting it? I have every right to question ANYTHING that is OUTSIDE of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Who are those intelligenstia. Can you post the names of such sold characters. Such greedy characters are not loyal to their parents also. Do not tell us Darshan ragi, Inder Ghagha put professor in front of their name they became professors. Can you tell us how they became professors when they are 10 class only.

[singh2]

This so called baldev singh does not know how a text is evaluated for autheticity. Normally the parameters are available of manuscripts, internal evidence, mention in contemporary literature, acceptance and respect in traditions, evaluation of neutral writers etc. he has not taken any of such reasearch and from top of his head he writes he writes that this cann't be written by guru sahib. Utter nonsense.

What did those Sikhs do with their knowledge of Sanskrit? Did they teach Sanskrit to Sikhs or translated Gurbani into Sanskrit? Did they translate Sanskrit texts into Braj Bhasa or Punjabi? If so where is the original bani?

Claim, "The battles of Bhangani and Nadaun are described briefly by Guru Gobind Singh Ji in beautiful Braj Bhasa."

Had the author used the same logic which he used in the analysis of "Ub Main Apni Katha Bakhano (Now I Relate My Own Tory)," he would have arrived at a similar conclusion that in no way Guru Gobind Singh is the author of the "Battles of Bhangani and Nandaun.

Bachitra natak details battle of Bhangani where guru ji had fight with Raja hari chand. hari Chand shoots an arrow and it is embedded in the belt of Guru sahib. Then guru ji strikes down Hari Chand. It is where Guru ji writes

Jabe ban lagayo

Tabe ros jagio

( When one is struck with an arrow

Then one gets into striking back mood)

Tell this heretic Baldev singh that the subject belt of Guru sahib with inscription of Dasam bani is in the treasure of royal house of Maharaja of patiala. Point here is that these uneducated missionaries have not attended any college and with their undeveolped psyche are making tall claims far from truth.

Their crusade against sanskrit is that they do not know this language. Nirmalas were trained in sanskrit as they were prepared to debate with Hindus otehrwise sikhs would be caught on wrong foot if they did not know the language of Hindu scriptures. It was obvious that Hindus will not take this new religion lightly and will do their best to derail sikhs. That is when the language and knowledge of Hindu scriptures come in he picture. Example is debate of Giani ditt singh with arya samaj founder Swami daya nand.

[singh2]

Therefore, Guru Gobind Singh most likely used a copy of Pothi Sahib when he prepared the Damdami Bir.

With Thanks to Bhai Baldev Singh ji

We all know Guru gobind singh ji was not given bir by dhirmalias and he dictated SGGS ji from memory at damdama sahib.

The above is another theory by gurnindak missionaries. This shows that these missionaries have no respect for our gurus and Sri Guru Granth sahib ji as their aim is to distort sikh history and traditions.

[Matheen]

If they are so anti - Sanskrit, how do they read the Sanskrit bani in Guru Granth Sahib Ji? That would explain some of their (mis) translations though.

[singh2]

This is how Guru sahib describes the battle with hari Chand

ਹਰੀਚੰਦ ਕੋਪੇ ਕਮਾਣੰ ਸੰਭਾਰੰ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਬਾਜੀਯੰ ਤਾਣ ਬਾਣੰ ਪ੍ਰਹਾਰੰ ॥

हरीचंद कोपे कमाणं स्मभारं ॥ प्रथम बाजीयं ताण बाणं प्रहारं ॥

Hari Chand, filled with rage, drew out his bow, he aimed and shot his arrow, which struck my horse.

ਦੁਤੀਯ ਤਾਕ ਕੈ ਤੀਰ ਮੋ ਕੌ ਚਲਾਯੰ ॥ ਰਖਿਓ ਦਈਵ ਮੈ ਕਾਨ ਛ੍ਵੈ ਕੈ ਸਿਧਾਯੰ ॥੨੯॥

दुतीय ताक कै तीर मो कौ चलायं ॥ रखिओ दईव मै कान छ्वै कै सिधायं ॥२९॥

He aimed and shot the second arrow towards me, the Lord protected me, his arrow only grazed my ear. 29.

ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਯ ਬਾਣ ਮਾਰਿਯੋ ਸੁ ਪੇਟੀ ਮਝਾਰੰ ॥ ਬਿਧਿਅੰ ਚਿਲਕਤੰ ਦੁਆਲ ਪਾਰੰ ਪਧਾਰੰ ॥

त्रितीय बाण मारियो सु पेटी मझारं ॥ बिधिअं चिलकतं दुआल पारं पधारं ॥

His third arrow penetrated deep into the buckle of my waist-belt.

ਚੁਭੀ ਚਿੰਚ ਚਰਮੰ ਕਛੂ ਘਾਇ ਨ ਆਯੰ ॥ ਕਲੰ ਕੇਵਲੰ ਜਾਨ ਦਾਸੰ ਬਚਾਯੰ ॥੩੦॥

चुभी चिंच चरमं कछू घाइ न आयं ॥ कलं केवलं जान दासं बचायं ॥३०॥

Its edge touched the body, but did not caused a wound, the Lord saved his servent.30.

ਰਸਾਵਲ ਛੰਦ ॥

रसावल छंद ॥

RASAAVAL STANZA

ਜਬੈ ਬਾਣ ਲਾਗਯੋ ॥ ਤਬੈ ਰੋਸ ਜਾਗਯੋ ॥

जबै बाण लागयो ॥ तबै रोस जागयो ॥

When the edge of the arrow touched my body, it kindled my resentment.

ਕਰੰ ਲੈ ਕਮਾਣੰ ॥ ਹਨੰ ਬਾਣ ਤਾਣੰ ॥੩੧॥

करं लै कमाणं ॥ हनं बाण ताणं ॥३१॥

I took the bow in my hand and aimed and shot the arrow.31.

ਸਬੈ ਬੀਰ ਧਾਏ ਸਰੋਘੰ ਚਲਾਏ ॥

सबै बीर धाए सरोघं चलाए ॥

All the warriors fled, when a volley of arrow was showered.

ਤਬੈ ਤਾਕਿ ਬਾਣੰ ॥ ਹਨਯੋ ਏਕ ਜੁਆਣੰ ॥੩੨॥

तबै ताकि बाणं ॥ हनयो एक जुआणं ॥३२॥

Then I aimed the arrow on a warrior and killed him.32.

ਹਰੀਚੰਦ ਮਾਰੇ ॥ ਸੁ ਜੋਧਾ ਲਤਾਰੇ ॥

हरीचंद मारे ॥ सु जोधा लतारे ॥

Hari Chand was killed and his brave soldiers were trampled.

ਸੁ ਕਾਰੋੜ ਰਾਯੰ ॥ ਵਹੈ ਕਾਲ ਘਾਯੰ ॥੩੩॥

सु कारोड़ रायं ॥ वहै काल घायं ॥३३॥

The chief of Kot Lehar was seized by death.33.

Bachitra natak, Dasam granth

[singh2]

For attention of sangat

The language of Dasam Granth is so powerful and moving that no person other than Guru sahib can write such composition.

Dr Balbir singh was elder brother of Bhai Vir singh ji. He wrote that in Dasam granth sparks are concealed and when they are released there will be a great fire that will take sikh kaum to charhdi kala.

The above means that we sikhs have not been able to raed this granth so far because of its difficult language. We need a department in Punjabi university that should teach our children Braj bhasha so that we find the treasures of Dasam granth ji.