Jump to content

Niddar Singh Gone International


amardeep

Recommended Posts

tony, you say that you have no opinion on the utility of the art taught by Niddar Singh, is this because you have never seen it in person, or you believe it to be effective?

If you feel that it is effective and your only quam is the history that is taught alongside it, then im guessing you feel that it is the genuine fighting arts of the Khalsa? If not, how do you come to this conclusion?

Those people who have been practising it for a number of years and have had exposure to the higher penthras, rank breaking, formations and skirmishes will no doubt accept that it is genuine and effective, however those who doubt the vidiya should allow their doubts to be cleared. At the end of the day, the Akhara is an open environment with open doors for anyone to come in and begin training and ask questions. There is no hush hush secret society and from day one everyone is taught the same thing. There is no restrictions on jaat paat gender race and colour, if your dedicated to put the time and effort in to train then you are more than welcome. No one is forced to become a Nihang, keep their kesh or become a Sikh, the Akharas sole aim is to revive the Vidiya amongst the masses, even though only a handful of students will ever get to Bhujangi level, at least people will know this Vidiya exists and can continue to keep it alive for generations ahead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Baba Budda Ji ithihaas is as per Nihang tradition, not a Nidar Singh fantasy.

Take up your insults with Akali Nihangs next time you grace a chhawnee in India.

Mithar, don't you live in CA, its amazing the solid conclusions you can reach by listening to nindiya on the net. I hope you will come to an akaara in the UK when you next visit, maybe try out your new age krav maga against a junior SV student, proof is in the pudding. Your buddy Tonyhp is not all that, if he was serious about his accusations, he would go to the akaara and ask Nidar Singh himself, generally people don't need to defend him or the vidya, because most of those who insult are spineless internet warriors/experts/historians, who like your mate Tonyhp, can't take time out to make 5 min car journey from his home to the Satruday akaara and ask the man about his doubts directly - AND THEN, share his views with us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is the new history?

post no. 21 above: "the Vidiya can be traced to ancient Shamans, Pashupatis, Kapilkas all attributed their fighting arts to the influence of Shiva. As time went by this vidiya was picked up by the Sikhs...."

Whereas before he believed it was revealed by Guru Nanak Ji to Baba Buddha Ji? or am I missing something....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apologies as I missed out the history inbetween. It is believed that Guru Nanak passed the Vidiya onto Baba Budha Ji as you state, however the art itself was around prior to the Gurus, unless you believe that the first person to ever pick up a sword was Guru Hargobind? As I mentioned earlier, there will be a series of books which will cover the history of Shastarvidiya and how the Sikhs became the custodians of the art.

Edited by Maha Singh
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Is there any written proof of history of Niddar's martial arts? or is this one of those things that only Niddar knows?"

I have already stated that the Baba Budda Ji ithihaas that you people ridicule is as per Nihang tradition, and may even be sourced from one of the puratan ithihaasik granths (I have not checked). Regarding the wider Shaman/Pashupati theories etc, anyone who has studied martial arts history to even a basic level knows that the origins of all puratan art forms are derived from older animalistic societies - hence there being many arts which are based on animal styles etc.. one doesn't even have to leave India to verify this, study South Indian martial arts and their numerous froms/basis/akaara mythological akaara lineages etc. Many still claim link to suryavanshi traditions - which is why the common Surya namaskar (similar to dhaand exercise) is practiced. Other than that, warrior traditions have always been maintained and practiced by wandering/preaching monks of various sects and dharmas, in Sikh/Indian tradition, Udasis have known/and still exist with some form of Shastar Vidya.

So where is the big surprise?

Is there any written tradition of Kirtan (outside of Sirlek)? No (apart from a few bits i.e. Baba Sham Singh Aden Shahi, which is why it has become a multi-coloured gum tree. But anyone with any basic knowledge of wider Indian Music - knows how kirtan should sound/be performed as per the may clues given in Gurbani, and the usage/purpose of saaj Gurus gifted - i.e. Dhrupadi style - a style which 99% of Sikhs have mostl likely not even heard of, let alone heard.

Same way, SV can be tested/verified against detailed historical battle paintings, many references to SV in ithihaasik granths (describing pentras/moves used), the plethora of shastar used in Gurus times - their indivual purpose/vidya/affectiveness (compared to the embarrasing gatka camps interpretations i.e. swinging khanda around in circles - they had to use modern replicas with 80% weight removed in order to achieve this circus act).

Lastly, if one compares SV against REAL killing forms i.e. Ninjitsu, puratan (non-sport) versions of Kali etc, one can see the striking similarities/yet important subtle and structural differences i.e. footwork etc.

I doubt very much Nidar Singh had time to become a master of all these arts and study Sri Dasam Granth, Sri Sarbloh Granth, ithihaasik granths, Nihang traditions, battlefield strategies/techniques, Warrior pyschology etc etc - and then merge them altogether.

If he did, then he is an absolute genius!

Having met with various Nihangs from different Dals in Indian myself, it is no surprise that the SV tradition is nearlt dead - one only has to see the obsession and reliance with 'guns', nealry all Nihangs have, for some one to ask them about some empty hand form is literally absurd in many of their eyes. Shastar are mostly symbolic, no different to the rest of the Panth wearing them - although many Nihnags still know what is a valuable shastar and can recongnise good quality as opposed to the symbolic kirpans worn by non-nihangs.

Other than that, gatka is practiced as a colourful demonstration, which basically earns them some money from on-looking awe inspired crowds, no different to the flowery acrobatic displays the Shaolin guys are now making money off (which people think is amazing - and it is, in its own choreographed/dance/drama based essence).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Same way, SV can be tested/verified against detailed historical battle paintings, many references to SV in ithihaasik granths (describing pentras/moves used), the plethora of shastar used in Gurus times - their indivual purpose/vidya/affectiveness (compared to the embarrasing gatka camps interpretations i.e. swinging khanda around in circles - they had to use modern replicas with 80% weight removed in order to achieve this circus act).

LOL

I always wondered why there seemed to be no difference between the way a straight-bladed khanda and a curved tulwar was used in gatka. As far as I am aware, Rajput Indians traditionally used the khanda as a weapon of last resort when they were unhorsed in battle, and it was used with chopping blows rather than slices.

Do you know how it is used in Niddar's Shastar Vidya? Maha Singh, do you know what kind of blows are practised with the khanda in Niddar SIngh's akhara?

Lastly, if one compares SV against REAL killing forms i.e. Ninjitsu, puratan (non-sport) versions of Kali etc, one can see the striking similarities/yet important subtle and structural differences i.e. footwork etc.

Yeah, I see similarities between SV and Kali's technique also, and the idea of penthras is similar to the langkah (drilling of footwork patterns) in Silat. (Though that's not a surprise since Silat's origins are probably Indian.)

K.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Same way, SV can be tested/verified against detailed historical battle paintings, many references to SV in ithihaasik granths (describing pentras/moves used), the plethora of shastar used in Gurus times - their indivual purpose/vidya/affectiveness (compared to the embarrasing gatka camps interpretations i.e. swinging khanda around in circles - they had to use modern replicas with 80% weight removed in order to achieve this circus act).

The Baba Budda Ji ithihaas is as per Nihang tradition, not a Nidar Singh fantasy.

Now this is something we can agree on. But then you also have to accept that the absence of any mention to SV in the Janamsakhis makes it highly unlikely that the Nihang tradition is correct. I have already given my view about Nihangs and their history, such stories which are without any basis just makes me more convinced that Nihang tradition may have some truth to it but nothing on the scale of the fantasy stories espoused by Niddar or the Sarbloh website. You seem to have a problem with a Sikh not buying into the Nihang myths wholesale.

Having met with various Nihangs from different Dals in Indian myself, it is no surprise that the SV tradition is nearlt dead - one only has to see the obsession and reliance with 'guns', nealry all Nihangs have, for some one to ask them about some empty hand form is literally absurd in many of their eyes. Shastar are mostly symbolic, no different to the rest of the Panth wearing them - although many Nihnags still know what is a valuable shastar and can recongnise good quality as opposed to the symbolic kirpans worn by non-nihangs.

This is where the SV myth is at odds with reality. For arguments sake let us accept that SV was introduced by Guru Nanak and later through Baba Budha became a Sikh martial art and one which the Khalsa used so successfully to liberate the Punjab from both the Mughals and the Afghans. So after the Khalsa had so successfully used this MA, what happened then. Surely SV would have been the training art of the Dals of the Misls as well as those of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. What of the Phulkian Rajas? Surely their armies would also have been trained in SV. So then we come to 1849 and suddenly SV becomes an art known only to a few Nihangs who keep the art alive so that as the news articles say, they can pass it on to a brummie factory worker! So what happened to SV in the Khalsa armies of the Phulkian Rajas. Wouldn't SV also have been known to all the disbanded Khalsa soldiers of the Lahore Durbar army? There would have been literally tens of thousands of them as well as tens of thousands of retired soldiers who after service with the Durbar would have returned to their villages before the Anglo-Sikh wars. Did these retirees just twiddle their thumbs or would they have tried to pass on SV to the youths of their villages? Soldiers being what they are a few decades later the retired Sikh soldiers of the British Indian army were instrumental in the spread of Singh Sabha revivalism in the villages of Punjab. So did their predecessors from the Lahore Durbar not pass SV on in their villages. The reason that none of the above occurred is that SV is a myth developed by Niddar. In order to make the art seem lost awaiting his contribution he has to make up stories such as nearly all the Nihangs were killed by the British and that the British had shoot on sight orders on Nihangs! The only way the SV myth would make sense is if the British systematically massacred the Sikh males from the generation immediately after the 1849 annexation. They would also have had to do the same to the veterans of the armies of the Phulkian Rajas. Now if the Khalsa could survive a genocidal campaign for 70 years and still hold on to SV then why did they suddenly lose all knowledge of it after annexation of Punjab?

I doubt very much Nidar Singh had time to become a master of all these arts and study Sri Dasam Granth, Sri Sarbloh Granth, ithihaasik granths, Nihang traditions, battlefield strategies/techniques, Warrior pyschology etc etc - and then merge them altogether.

If he did, then he is an absolute genius!

No one is saying he invented SV. It might have been developed over a few generations in an Akhara and then passed on the Niddar. That much may be likely but the trying to pass it off as a Khalsa MA from the times of Guru Nanak is very much a myth.

Edited by tonyhp32
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wait, are we talking about what Nihangs in India practice or Niddar's martial arts? Because it is not the same. When I was in India I showed Nihangs videos from Niddar's martial arts, and at first they were confused and then they burst into laughter. Nihangs in India jokingly nicknamed Niddar as "Karatay wala Baba". If you want to believe that Niddar's martial arts is authentic Nihang martial arts, then go ahead, but don't expect everyone to swallow this lie. Niddar’s SV history It is an amusing fairytale to tell westerners and Goray, I don’t know how else to burst the bubble to you but the story is just not real.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There were Nihangs such as Baba Raam Singh and Baba Ranjit Singh whos audio interviews I have, and they confirm that what Niddar Singh learnt from Baba Mohinder Singh is the same vidiya of Baba Gyan Singh. The same principles, strategies and were confirmed to be the traditional Vidiya.

If you want to believe that Gatka practised by the Nihangs is the real deal martial art of the Khalsa then go ahead, but those who know Shastarvidiya will quickly tell you which penthra Gatka grew out of. What Gatka represents is a poor skilled facet of the complete vidiya, nowadays most practitioners have become devoid of any neeti, mental and physical and have resorted to pure stick swinging.

Nihang martial arts of today is completely different to what Nihang martial arts of the past would have been, puratan singhs would have battle tested their vidiya, they would have trained day in day out and spent hours contemplating their art of warfare. Many people have claimed that there are Nihangs who know Shastarvidiya but no proof has ever been shown, If there are any Nihangs nowadays who know the full vidiya then let me know their name and where they are based and I would be happy to go learn from them as I will be visiting India soon.

Edited by Maha Singh
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There were Nihangs such as Baba Raam Singh and Baba Ranjit Singh whos audio interviews I have, and they confirm that what Niddar Singh learnt from Baba Mohinder Singh is the same vidiya of Baba Gyan Singh. The same principles, strategies and were confirmed to be the traditional Vidiya.

If you want to believe that Gatka practised by the Nihangs is the real deal martial art of the Khalsa then go ahead, but those who know Shastarvidiya will quickly tell you which penthra Gatka grew out of. What Gatka represents is a poor skilled facet of the complete vidiya, nowadays most practitioners have become devoid of any neeti, mental and physical and have resorted to pure stick swinging.

Nihang martial arts of today is completely different to what Nihang martial arts of the past would have been, puratan singhs would have battle tested their vidiya, they would have trained day in day out and spent hours contemplating their art of warfare. Many people have claimed that there are Nihangs who know Shastarvidiya but no proof has ever been shown, If there are any Nihangs nowadays who know the full vidiya then let me know their name and where they are based and I would be happy to go learn from them as I will be visiting India soon.

Ok, so while all the Nihangs in India are completely ignorant of this secretive martial arts only one person (Niddar Singh) in the whole wide world has knowledge of authentic Sikh martial arts? Are you serious?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, so while all the Nihangs in India are completely ignorant of this secretive martial arts only one person (Niddar Singh) in the whole wide world has knowledge of authentic Sikh martial arts? Are you serious?

I would have agreed with you if other traditional arts such as Raag were not near extinction either. Before the recent boom in learning Raag Vidiya how many Sikhs would you say new the full vidiya and played pure tanti saaj? Of those how many know Drupad? How many people in the world have knowledge of playing intstruments such as the Rabab and Saranda? 1? 2? a handful?

It is easy to lose arts within a short period of time, all it takes is a bit of complaicancy which Sikhs are experts at! Times of peace, laziness and lack of kadar has been the reason for many traditional arts to die away.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There were Nihangs such as Baba Raam Singh and Baba Ranjit Singh whos audio interviews I have, and they confirm that what Niddar Singh learnt from Baba Mohinder Singh is the same vidiya of Baba Gyan Singh.

There's a bazurg Singh who teaches at Raqba who was a student of Akaali Baba Gyana Singh Ji (who taught Niddar's teacher). Pay them a visit if you can, they have many stories to tell.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

re Baba Budha being the gatka ustad of 6th Guru. I wish to present it from this angle. The Gurus from Guru Nanak had complete of the 14 vidya's. No-one could teachthem anything. However if we look at the time of Guru Hargoind's birth who gave the vardhan for 6th Guru's birth? Baba Budha Ji? Baba ji knew that Guru Arjan Dev ji had already given vardhan , but was exemplifying his Sikh, by asking Mata Ji to ask Baba Budha Ji for vardhan. Same way 6th Guru already had vidya but still exemplifed his Sikh by asked Baba Ji to teach it to him.

But further to this , i dont beleive that this is where the name Budha Dal came from as some nihangs like to make out. The real vidya came from the Guru. But the army took its name from a Sikh? Think in kirtan, the real vidya came from Guru Nanak, but we dont say that the knowledge came from Bhai Mardana do we?

anyways the stick-waving gatka that we see, whatever your opinion on it should still be seen as A type of shastarvidya. If it wasnt for Niddar Singh, and some of his "puratan" thoughts, i think shastarvidya would be more widespread than it is now.

amritworld did excellent research on the issues of shastarvidya.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a bazurg Singh who teaches at Raqba who was a student of Akaali Baba Gyana Singh Ji (who taught Niddar's teacher). Pay them a visit if you can, they have many stories to tell.....

If that is Baba Gian Singh they have confirmed themselves to Niddar Singh that they have basic knowledge of the vidiya, althought he knows of the Mahakaal Kalika and Sarabkaal pethreh he cannot do them. I will viist Raqba to confirm this and see how much the Baba knows :D

Is there anyone else?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tonyhp – Shastarvidya is mentioned in puratan granths and associated sakhis, in fact, there is even a sakhi which mentions by Bhai Mardana discussing a pehlvani yudh move with Guru Nanak Dev Ji (who was said to be wearing a kara) upon encountering a Shastardari Sadhu in the Jungle...

It also mentioned in other sources such as the pavanja hukum of Dasmesh Pita, the term only became obsolete upon the advent of gatka propogation (last century).

Re your basic analysis of where SV disappeared, read Nidar Singhs book, if not his analysis, read the footnotes and sources he has used, you will not be left wanting for clarity. Akalis were targeted and wiped out, as was there vidya, as was the other big threats to the british i.e. Baba Maharaj Singh, Baba Ram Singh Ji Namdhari etc. Also, you forget that M Ranjit Singh modernised his army – his efforts were concentrated on western weaponry and drills, later the British continued this western military education. Par the few remaining Akalis, SV would have been removed – AS WAS PURATAN KIRTAN.

SV was not developed over a few generations, if you bother to check it out and compare it against other ancient art forms, you find your answers. As a clue, look up Vajra Mushti – Sikhs have their version of this ancient thousands of year old art – which was even used by Sri Krishan Ji – Loh Mushti. Gatka gang have no idea how to use a kara.

Kalyug – Puratan method of utilising the Khande is similar to a heavy spear. The clue is in the metal guard which usually covers 1/3rd of the base side of the blade. This is used to control the blade with the left hand whilst the khanda is rooted in the right hand. The Khanda is a rank breaking shastar (for those who have some knowledge of battlefield tactics).

You are right re Silat etc being rooted in SV, as are most SE Asian fighting arts. Even Ninjitsu doesn’t hide the fact that it contains drills based on ‘Kshatriya’ roots – via its Buddist journey.

Mithar, have you studied gatka of these Nihangs you mention? I know many ‘traditional’ Sikhs who think the Gurus used the harmonium... Your comments are completely baseless, learn to do real research.

Mahakaal, they are talking about Baba Giaan Singh. I know some unrelated hardcore martial artists, who live in Indian and have being studying various styles from around the country for over 20 years. They have confirmed they learned some puratan vidya from Patilala around 10 years ago, although they didn’t give me names. But just out of interest, Akali Ranjit Singh, who has SV, is also from Patiala, so there is a chance that some Nihangs from there may still hold vidya.

Lastly, most people who have studied any sort of traditional art from India understand the etiquette of the Gur-Shishya system. Most arts be them Yudh, Sangeet or Dharmic, still follow this schooling system. Youngsters and modernists here need to understand this basic concept. SV is not a secret per se, but it has only ever traditionally been taught under a Gurdev, whom the student served over a number of years. You can’t just go to India once ever 3 years, spend half a day with a random Nihang, and think you have learnt about something. Shortcut culture has poisoned our Panth.

Edited by shaheediyan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"If that is Baba Gian Singh they have confirmed themselves to Niddar Singh that they have basic knowledge of the vidiya, althought he knows of the Mahakaal Kalika and Sarabkaal pethreh he cannot do them. I will viist Raqba to confirm this and see how much the Baba knows biggrin.gif

Is there anyone else? "

There was a 90 year old Akali Baba in Anandpur Sahib too, I forget his name now...

Edited by shaheediyan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a bazurg Singh who teaches at Raqba who was a student of Akaali Baba Gyana Singh Ji (who taught Niddar's teacher). Pay them a visit if you can, they have many stories to tell.....

If your promoting a Shagird of Baba Gyana Singh, the Dhada Gurdev of Niddar Singh, then something must have gone wrong in the transfer of the vidiya between Baba Mohinder Singh to Niddar Singh. If your OK with the vidiya of Baba Gian Singh, you must be ok with the vidiya of Niddar Singh, with the bone of contention being with his Sanatan ideology only? Correct me if im wrong.

Niddar Singh learnt his philosophical ideology, traditions and maryada from Baba Mohinder Singh, so either Baba Mohinder Singh was a rouge who taught "dodgy" maryada or Niddar Singh (who started learning from young age as a mona with little knowledge of Sikhi) warped the teachings of Baba Mohinder Singh and added the Sanatan idology himself. Or, both Niddar Singh and Baba Mohinder Singh teach the ideology which has been passed down from Gurdev to Gurdev. Please tell me what you believe to be right. BTW Lets not confuse ideology with rumours which spread over the net.

Do you know how long Baba Gian Singh learnt from Baba Gyana Singh?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...