Niddar Singh Gone International

[tonyhp32]

I would have agreed with you if other traditional arts such as Raag were not near extinction either. Before the recent boom in learning Raag Vidiya how many Sikhs would you say new the full vidiya and played pure tanti saaj? Of those how many know Drupad? How many people in the world have knowledge of playing intstruments such as the Rabab and Saranda? 1? 2? a handful?

It is easy to lose arts within a short period of time, all it takes is a bit of complaicancy which Sikhs are experts at! Times of peace, laziness and lack of kadar has been the reason for many traditional arts to die away.

Your comparison between Raag Kirtan and SV is incorrect. Whereas it was not a case that all Sikhs would have known Kirtan, all Sikhs by virtue of being Amritdhari Khalsa would have had to learn some martial skills and that could only have been SV.

Tonyhp – Shastarvidya is mentioned in puratan granths and associated sakhis, in fact, there is even a sakhi which mentions by Bhai Mardana discussing a pehlvani yudh move with Guru Nanak Dev Ji (who was said to be wearing a kara) upon encountering a Shastardari Sadhu in the Jungle...

It also mentioned in other sources such as the pavanja hukum of Dasmesh Pita, the term only became obsolete upon the advent of gatka propogation (last century).

Re your basic analysis of where SV disappeared, read Nidar Singhs book, if not his analysis, read the footnotes and sources he has used, you will not be left wanting for clarity. Akalis were targeted and wiped out, as was there vidya, as was the other big threats to the british i.e. Baba Maharaj Singh, Baba Ram Singh Ji Namdhari etc. Also, you forget that M Ranjit Singh modernised his army – his efforts were concentrated on western weaponry and drills, later the British continued this western military education. Par the few remaining Akalis, SV would have been removed – AS WAS PURATAN KIRTAN.

SV was not developed over a few generations, if you bother to check it out and compare it against other ancient art forms, you find your answers. As a clue, look up Vajra Mushti – Sikhs have their version of this ancient thousands of year old art – which was even used by Sri Krishan Ji – Loh Mushti. Gatka gang have no idea how to use a kara.

Maharaja Ranjit Singh may very well have disregarded SV for his modernised army, but that does not mean that with a few decades none of the soldiers in the Lahore army would have had no knowledge of SV. What the promoters of SV are claiming is that SV was the KHALSA MARTIAL ART. It cannot be that if throughout its history only a few Nihangs were privy to SV. Let's accept that Maharaja Ranjit Singh totally erased SV out of the Lahore army something which is well nigh impossible but for the sake of argument let's accept that happended. In fact the modernised was never wholesale, the Jagirdari fauj which were mostly Khalsas were not modernised so thay should have still be aware of the SV. An interesting point is that the commander of the Sikh army in 1845 is shown in an old drawing is shown wearing near full body armour!

The Phulkian Rajas did not modernise their armies so what happened to SV there? In fact all assume that all the Sikhs states just overnight forgot about SV. What of the groups of Sikhs outside Punjab? Was SV ever known in Patna? What of the Sikhs in Kashmir or even the Bandai Sikhs in Jammu? SV myths make for a good story but are no more real that Narnia or lord of the rings.

[shaheediyan]

Tony, Grihishti Singhs would not have been 'experts' in any art form per se, although they would have been familiar with most forms at a basic level, as kirtan, yudh, ithihaas, paath would have formed a basic premise of every Singhs life. But there always have been, and always will be 'experts' Gurdevs/Vidyagurus of these specific areas - Akalis were without a doubt the Gurdevs of Yudh Vidya. Again, due to your lack of knowledge regarding Khalsa battlefield tactics, you have no idea of te structure and levels of soldiers in the original Khalsa armies, hence you don't know what role your average Nihang, and at a lower level, Grihisht Singhs would have played in the Khalsa Fauj, so there is no point going further. Read the sakhis of

At the end of the day, after winning the 2nd Anglo Sikh war, the British banned shastar in Punjab, all Sikhs were forced to hand in generations of Shastar. The next 90 years (3 to 4 generations worth...) alongside the immediate recruitement of Sikhs into British forces following Lucknow, the adoption of British soldiery and the clearance of Akalis from Punjab (as I said, read Nihang Nidar Singhs resources) what chance was their of SV surviving? The reality of the situation is that in Patna and Nanded, Sikhs have suffered much poverty (if you have been there you will know this) - SV is the last thing on their mind (although they have kept a manly persona), bread on the table has been their concern... Kashmiri Sikhs (talking from experience of knowing one), have not retained many puratan traditions - at most, there are few dera which are said to date back 300 years.

I am not saying, nor have I said there is no one else with Vidya, in fact some other Babai have been mentioned above, maybe more will be find, I sincerely hope so... but as anyone who has studied kirtan knows that a whole world of puratan kirtan died with the passing of Bhai Sahib Avtar Singh Ji, its not that difficult to believe the same as per this scenario.

Tony, what ever you say, the proof is in the pudding. I really think you should take that 5 min drive and go and speak to Nidar Singh, he really is a great guy to have a discussion with - even if you totally disagree with all that he says.

Thanks for sharing the beautiful print.

[shaheediyan]

Tony, Grihishti Singhs would not have been 'experts' in any art form per se, although they would have been familiar with most forms at a basic level, as kirtan, yudh, ithihaas, paath would have formed a basic premise of every Singhs life. But there always have been, and always will be 'experts' Gurdevs/Vidyagurus of these specific areas - Akalis were without a doubt the Gurdevs of Yudh Vidya. Again, due to your lack of knowledge regarding Khalsa battlefield tactics, you have no idea of te structure and levels of soldiers in the original Khalsa armies, hence you don't know what role your average Nihang, and at a lower level, Grihisht Singhs would have played in the Khalsa Fauj, so there is no point going further. Read the sakhis of

At the end of the day, after winning the 2nd Anglo Sikh war, the British banned shastar in Punjab, all Sikhs were forced to hand in generations of Shastar. The next 90 years (3 to 4 generations worth...) alongside the immediate recruitement of Sikhs into British forces following Lucknow, the adoption of British soldiery and the clearance of Akalis from Punjab (as I said, read Nihang Nidar Singhs resources) what chance was their of SV surviving? The reality of the situation is that in Patna and Nanded, Sikhs have suffered much poverty (if you have been there you will know this) - SV is the last thing on their mind (although they have kept a manly persona), bread on the table has been their concern... Kashmiri Sikhs (talking from experience of knowing one), have not retained many puratan traditions - at most, there are few dera which are said to date back 300 years.

I am not saying, nor have I said there is no one else with Vidya, in fact some other Babai have been mentioned above, maybe more will be find, I sincerely hope so... but as anyone who has studied kirtan knows that a whole world of puratan kirtan died with the passing of Bhai Sahib Avtar Singh Ji, its not that difficult to believe the same as per this scenario.

Tony, what ever you say, the proof is in the pudding. I really think you should take that 5 min drive and go and speak to Nidar Singh, he really is a great guy to have a discussion with - even if you totally disagree with all that he says.

Thanks for sharing the beautiful print.

[dalsingh101]

Tony

I think that image is one of Lal Singh, a Dogra, who is commonly believed to have sold out the Sikhs to the WASPS during the Anglo-Sikh yudhs.

I don't think he grew up as a Sikh or even in the Panjab. He came later was was promoted by M. Ranjit Singh and converted to Sikhism. He is not a good exempler of what Sikh soldiers wore then. Although this guy is wearing European style armour, I don't think it was common. It may well be another piece of evidence of how close he was to goray that he managed to get some armour off them. Probably as a gift. This guy is meant to have deserted Singhs in a middle of a battle, even though he was a commander.

There are also rumours that he was an "ashiq" of Rani Jindan.

Just for the info guys.

Edited August 15, 2009 by dalsingh101

[HSD1]

hold on a minute.

yes, maharaja ranjit singh modernised the army, but it is almost common knowledge that during the anglo-sikh wars, most sikh regiments would close the gap on the english, fire one last round, then ditch their matchlocks and charge the british with swords, shields and other short range weapons. surely they must have known some SV, otherwise charging a redcoat wall of bayonets would have been suicidal and incredibly stupid.

as for the picture, the guy is obviously a gorcharra. they were feudal noblemen who were expected to produce cavalry units to join the khalsa if the crown needed them to boost the punjabi army's smaller cavalry forces. they were next to useless, and nothing compared to the full time dragoons, lancers and cuiraisers that the khalsa used. our lack of decent cavalry hindered us and forced us to use gorcharras in large numbers, even though the british were fielding full-time, highly trained cavalry units. many of these gorcharra wore armour and carried an often random assortment of equipment (they wore not inspected often). therefore, i'm not sure if SV incorporates cavalry tactics or how to fight when on a horse. akhalis on the other hand usually always fought on foot even though most of them had horses (similar to dragoons).

[shaheediyan]

HSD, Ghor Svaar is a specialist vidya in its own right. In the puratan (prior to M Ranjit Singh) Akaalis did fight on horseback - with swords, arrows and chakkars. Nihang Nidar Singh has not studied this Vidya, although he knows a little about it.

[dalsingh101]

I know it is not related to Niddar but I do think that is a picture of this Lal Singh.

http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/1800/lal-singh-raja.html

Apparently he was in charge of 50,000 strong, entrenched Sikh force which lost to an army of 16,000 invading Anglo-Indian troops...............

The British Troops resuming the attack on the Sikh Entrenched Camp. Battle fought during the First Sikh War, by a force of 16,000 Anglo-Indian troops under the command of General Sir Hugh Gough. On the evening of 21st December the British Force unsuccessfully attempted to take the Sikh entrenched position commanded by Lal Singh with an army of 50,000 Sikh troops. When nightfall came the British retired overnight. At dawn they attacked again, this time the Sikh line eventually collapsed and fled the field leaving behind 7,000 casualties. British and Indian losses were 694 killed with 1,721 wounded. This was one of the bloodiest battles in the east during the 19th century.

http://www.military-art.com/mall/more.php?ProdID=6875

Sorry for the digressing.

[dalsingh101]

I find the notion that there was some fixed ancient vidya system universally taught to all Sikhs soldiers of the past unrealistic. The use of muskets, has been mentioned more than anything by contemporaries. This indicates that this must have been central in Sikh martial training. Those descriptions of dhai phat techniques (hit and run, then turn and hit again) used in the 1700s describe the use of the toopak (muskets) more than hathiars (hand held weapons). Sikhs seem conspicuous for their horseback shooting in accounts I have read.

I think there was much more fluidity in training than implied by Niddar. At best, he may have inherited one strain of martial training from puratan times. To imply that this may be the standard techniques taught to Sikhs en masse is dodgy because Sikhs do not generally organise like that. Jathas, misls etc. had high levels of independence - presumably different training methods evolved across such groups. Close hand to hand fighting was the last line of defence and other long range techniques were used first.

It's late and I may be rambling.

[HSD1]

I know it is not related to Niddar but I do think that is a picture of this Lal Singh.

http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/1800/lal-singh-raja.html

Apparently he was in charge of 50,000 strong, entrenched Sikh force which lost to an army of 16,000 invading Anglo-Indian troops...............

Sorry for the digressing.

when it comes to the size of the khalsa, the british usually enlarged our number for more dramatism. before the first war, one of their commanders said we had well over 80 regiments! we actually had 36-40. as for Feroshezah, there were two seperate sikh divisions. the first one was forced out by the british and was 10000-15000 strong. the second division turned up at the end of the battle after the first division withdrew/was routed. the second division then turned around and marched off without fighting as their commander was one of the traitors.

also, the picture is of laal singh, and i think his battle dress is very similar to the gorcharra.

shaheediyan: i was on about the ranjit singh period as before 1800 virtually every sikh tried to own a horse if they wanted to fight.

i think dalsingh just hit this topic on the head. regardless of what niddar says, or how good SV is taught, we can never be sure if its 100% accurate. it would be very naive to think that what he knows is as good or complete as what was known before the defeat of the khalsa at gujerat.

[dalsingh101]

Sorry but I had to ask.

Did Sikhs really actually use some version of that weapon which currently resembles a web made of ropes that you twist around repeatedly, presumaby to turn your self into a "deadly human circular saw" type thing?

What is that thing called?

Dasam Granth mentions lots of weapons, is this one mentioned?

It just looks dodgy for:

A ) Carrying about

B ) Defending yourself from an abrupt attack whilst using it

C ) Defending yourself from musket/pistol or arrow fire

Anyone know anything about it? I can see how it could be used for physical training but was it used in battles?

Edited August 15, 2009 by dalsingh101

[HSD1]

to protect you from horsemen's swords?! i honestly dont know. where's niddar singh when we need him?

[drawrof]

Hey,

I read one account (I'll come back with the source) that said that the sikhs were forgetting the art of shooting the bow and arrow by the late 1780's....so, by nearly all accounts, it would be difficult for that to have remained in tact.

Shaheediyan, the baba at anandpur sahib is also named gyan/gyana singh...he is the one that knew some pentray but he wasn't conversant in the battle formations although he claimed to have heard of them when Niddar Singh spoke to him in 2007-2008.

And to speak to dalsingh's question....how would that ropey thing have worked and would it not backfire if 3-4 jumped into it...I would assume the person who is wielding it would look akin to someone who has been caught in peter parker's web! (try that for mythological!).

[dalsingh101]

They claim the ropey thing was originally made of more solid material with knives attached to it. Still looks dodgy to me.

also, the picture is of laal singh, and i think his battle dress is very similar to the gorcharra.

I have to disagree. If you look at Sikh art from that period, the armour that you usually see is the "four mirrors" Persian style one like below. Plus I swear I recall reading a contemporary description of the Gorrachura and they were described as wearing bright fanciful clothes, not armour. However this might have applied to everyday manouevers, not during war. Even then, I do not think they wore that Eurostyle armour, that image is quite exceptional of those from that period.

[dalsingh101]

They probably looked like this.

This next one is actually a portrait of a ghorrachura apparently(!!), shame the artist is tutti...he seems to be wearing the four mirrors style armour.

This another contemporary ghorrachara image. I think they drew them like this on purpose (the horse looks knackered). But it seems like nihungs were not uncommon in the ghorrchura?

Edited August 15, 2009 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

Was SV used in the 1st AngloSikh war? This is an image of Sobroan drawn from the white perspective (i.e. is highly likely to involve large amounts of bullsh1t).

[amardeep]

Does'nt panth parkash say that most sikhs have lost the art of SV ?

[Mithar]

There are also rumours that he was an "ashiq" of Rani Jindan.

Just for the info guys.

These rumours were started by the British. With their typical orientalist mindset they love to portray Indian royalty in a perverted manner since that is how European royalty was. Rani Jindan was a pure Indian woman not like the slutty portrayal the orientalists have made her out to be. These Eurocentric orientalists have linked Rani Jindan's name with so many men like the Dogras, Maharaja Sher Singh to name a few. It is not just Rani Jindan whose name they have maligned, if you read their books from the 19th century about Indian history that is how these perverted minded orientalists have portrayed other Indian royalty. For example, these perverts try to also say that emperor Shah Jahan had sexual relations with his daughter!! Since that is how perverted European royalty was. These perverts throw these dirty accusations without any proof or reference which is what really annoys the heck out of me. This is pure orientalism in it's sickest and lowest form.

[HSD1]

They claim the ropey thing was originally made of more solid material with knives attached to it. Still looks dodgy to me.

I have to disagree. If you look at Sikh art from that period, the armour that you usually see is the "four mirrors" Persian style one like below. Plus I swear I recall reading a contemporary description of the Gorrachura and they were described as wearing bright fanciful clothes, not armour. However this might have applied to everyday manouevers, not during war. Even then, I do not think they wore that Eurostyle armour, that image is quite exceptional of those from that period.

hmm, good point. it just occured to me that if laal singh was commanding the entire army, he would have worn something to distinguish him from the gorcharra, even though some gorcharra wore full armour chestplates aswell.

[HSD1]

to dalsingh, post 64,

i think the 1st pic may be of a ghorchurra, but as they had no real uniform and were irregulars, they could have worn a number of things. the other 2 pics are of akhalis, and they never served in the ghorchara. the khalsa had 4 akhali regiments (one of the more notorious ones being 'The Hot Coals').akhalis rode horse but fought on foot in these battles. are all 3 pics off of britishbattles.com? they're not very good with the accuracy of their pictures or the details of the battles.

post 65:

well many british accounts did speak of vicious hand to hand combat. in the warrior saints book (if i remember correctly), there is an account by an english officer of one sikh fending off 4 horsemen before he got killed by the officer. sobraon was not a good place for SV. thousands of troops in a small section of land with the river at their backs. as you can see from the picture, the ramparts were not very effective against the english attack. also in the middle of the pic is a 12 pounder being wheeled in by the brits. they would do this and use grape/canister at short range to decimate our ranks. i dont think there was a SV tactic to deal with this as the goreh used this tactic throughout both wars, and it was usually successful. for some reason we didnt come up with something to counter it.

Edited August 16, 2009 by HSD

[dalsingh101]

These rumours were started by the British. With their typical orientalist mindset they love to portray Indian royalty in a perverted manner since that is how European royalty was. Rani Jindan was a pure Indian woman not like the slutty portrayal the orientalists have made her out to be. These Eurocentric orientalists have linked Rani Jindan's name with so many men like the Dogras, Maharaja Sher Singh to name a few. It is not just Rani Jindan whose name they have maligned, if you read their books from the 19th century about Indian history that is how these perverted minded orientalists have portrayed other Indian royalty. For example, these perverts try to also say that emperor Shah Jahan had sexual relations with his daughter!! Since that is how perverted European royalty was. These perverts throw these dirty accusations without any proof or reference which is what really annoys the heck out of me. This is pure orientalism in it's sickest and lowest form.

Fair point. They were also likely to be pretty shocked to find women in much more powerful positions than they would generally be allowed in their own so-called conservative Victorian society, with their repressed "roses".

You know I am seriously beginning to suspect that Bute Shah may have been writing with a Euro bias when he wrote his poem about the AngloSikh war. Was he the same guy that is mentioned by Rattan Bhangu as helping the British write a Moghul version of Sikh history? Hmmmm.....

He mentions that Jindan swore revenege on the Khalsa for killing her brother. So she led them to battle against the British with traitors for generals. Maybe we need another thread for this topic?

[dalsingh101]

to dalsingh, post 64,

i think the 1st pic may be of a ghorchurra, but as they had no real uniform and were irregulars, they could have worn a number of things. the other 2 pics are of akhalis, and they never served in the ghorchara. the khalsa had 4 akhali regiments (one of the more notorious ones being 'The Hot Coals').akhalis rode horse but fought on foot in these battles. are all 3 pics off of britishbattles.com? they're not very good with the accuracy of their pictures or the details of the battles.

post 65:

well many british accounts did speak of vicious hand to hand combat. in the warrior saints book (if i remember correctly), there is an account by an english officer of one sikh fending off 4 horsemen before he got killed by the officer. sobraon was not a good place for SV. thousands of troops in a small section of land with the river at their backs. as you can see from the picture, the ramparts were not very effective against the english attack. also in the middle of the pic is a 12 pounder being wheeled in by the brits. they would do this and use grape/canister at short range to decimate our ranks. i dont think there was a SV tactic to deal with this as the goreh used this tactic throughout both wars, and it was usually successful. for some reason we didnt come up with something to counter it.

I've come across those images before. They are all significant in some way. Shame I haven't got my reference books around anymore. When I find out more about their backgrounds I will post it. I have seen an image of SIkh horse men who I think were ghorrachurras in the V&A years ago. They wore red dress with facy patterns and carried muskets. I wish I could find the image now. Has no one got the Susan Strong book from the V&A? I think it may be in there?

[dalsingh101]

This is a modern reineterpretation but the contemporary image I saw showed the ghorrachuras like the guy on the horse:

Edited August 16, 2009 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

This contemporary (I think) image shows Singhs facing down a charge with bayonetted rifles? Any SV there?

[dalsingh101]

SV here?

[tonyhp32]

Tony, Grihishti Singhs would not have been 'experts' in any art form per se, although they would have been familiar with most forms at a basic level, as kirtan, yudh, ithihaas, paath would have formed a basic premise of every Singhs life. But there always have been, and always will be 'experts' Gurdevs/Vidyagurus of these specific areas - Akalis were without a doubt the Gurdevs of Yudh Vidya. Again, due to your lack of knowledge regarding Khalsa battlefield tactics, you have no idea of te structure and levels of soldiers in the original Khalsa armies, hence you don't know what role your average Nihang, and at a lower level, Grihisht Singhs would have played in the Khalsa Fauj, so there is no point going further. Read the sakhis of

At the end of the day, after winning the 2nd Anglo Sikh war, the British banned shastar in Punjab, all Sikhs were forced to hand in generations of Shastar. The next 90 years (3 to 4 generations worth...) alongside the immediate recruitement of Sikhs into British forces following Lucknow, the adoption of British soldiery and the clearance of Akalis from Punjab (as I said, read Nihang Nidar Singhs resources) what chance was their of SV surviving? The reality of the situation is that in Patna and Nanded, Sikhs have suffered much poverty (if you have been there you will know this) - SV is the last thing on their mind (although they have kept a manly persona), bread on the table has been their concern... Kashmiri Sikhs (talking from experience of knowing one), have not retained many puratan traditions - at most, there are few dera which are said to date back 300 years.

I am not saying, nor have I said there is no one else with Vidya, in fact some other Babai have been mentioned above, maybe more will be find, I sincerely hope so... but as anyone who has studied kirtan knows that a whole world of puratan kirtan died with the passing of Bhai Sahib Avtar Singh Ji, its not that difficult to believe the same as per this scenario.

Tony, what ever you say, the proof is in the pudding. I really think you should take that 5 min drive and go and speak to Nidar Singh, he really is a great guy to have a discussion with - even if you totally disagree with all that he says.

Thanks for sharing the beautiful print.

Shaheediyan,

What are grehisti Singhs? Are they now another sampardha seperate from the Nihangs, Sewapanthi, Udasis and Nirmalas? So I suppose that you accept that apart from the Nihangs there were a more numerous class of Khalsa Sikhs who did not live the sedimentary life of the Nihangs and yet were Amritdhari? I accept your point that apart from the Gurdevs, ordinary Sikhs would have had a basic knowledge of Kirtan but this cannot then be equated that apart from Nihangs, Sikhs would have had basic knowledge of SV. The point that I have been making which you seem to ignore is that SV is presented as the Khalsa Martial Art with an illustrious history taking it all the way to Guru Nanak. If we accept this then SV would have been a central part of the training of a Sikh at least during the Guru Hargobind period and with the creation of the Khalsa it would have become more ingrained. I am sure you would agree that Khalsa would have been a majority of Sikhs throughout the period 1699-1849. During the period of the Mughal and Afghan oppression SV would have been central to the life of a Khalsa Sikh. According to the contemporary travellers during the 18th century when they enquired of the numbers that Sikhs can bring to the field, the response from Sikhs was always in the lakhs as they counted all able bodied men as soldiers. This is in marked contrast to other peoples also struggling for sovereignity at that time, ie the Hindu Jats, Mahratas and Rajputs.

Again, due to your lack of knowledge regarding Khalsa battlefield tactics, you have no idea of te structure and levels of soldiers in the original Khalsa armies, hence you don't know what role your average Nihang, and at a lower level, Grihisht Singhs would have played in the Khalsa Fauj, so there is no point going further. Read the sakhis of

Pray elighten us about the battlefield tactics. During the times of the Misls the soldiers would have had to all have reached a good level of knowledge of SV. The SV story like the story of Nihangs being the original Khalsa is very much a myth.

As for your contention about the Sikhs of Nanded being to poor to retain SV, you might wish to refer to books other than the fairy stories of Niddar in order to get authentic information. Dakhani Sikhs in the Hyderabad state would have had ample opportunity as well as the motivation due to their employ in the army of Nawab to retain SV should that art have been with them when they moved from Punjab to Hyderabad. Dakhani Sikhs have been strict in their adherence to Khalsa Rehat more so than the Sikhs of Punjab after 1849. As far as I am aware not many of the Dakhani Sikhs dress as Nihangs nor do they go around in Jathas. Apart from their strict adherence to Rehat not much distinguishes them from the Amritdhari Sikhs of Punjab. This point is all the more relevant as these Dakhani Sikhs owe their origin in Hyderbad to their relocation from Punjab during the time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Your point about the need for a living getting in the way of retaining SV may be relevant to other Sikhs outside Punjab such as the Assamese Sikhs who also have a tradition of a military relocation from Punjab to their present location. The Assamese Sikhs took to farming and service unlike the Dakhani Sikhs who remained in the local military until at least the annexation of Hyderabad by India in 1948.

Edited August 16, 2009 by tonyhp32