Hindu Sikh "unity"

[Matheen]

Show me where exactly with citation so that I can go look it up to read.

"Khalsa rehat", from Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, from a saroop found at Hazoor Sahib, well away from the influence of Singh Sabha.

[Matheen]

Matheen, just out of interestm could you give examples of which Nirmaley have said Sikhi is not Snaatn.

Ta.

Some mahapursh from Bhai Daya Singh Ji samparda, I think Sant Jagjit Singh Ji has said the same, but I'll have to check.

Even Sant Isher Singh Ji sometimes referred to 'sanatan' mat vs. Gurmat.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Matheen

[HarjasDevi]

"Calling Guru Ji 'a joke' is not an ideological difference!"

Every opinion of some person posting is not a reflection of the perspective of the Sikh-Hindu Unity efforts. People here on this thread were not bashing rude or silly comments but the ideal of Sikh-Hindu unity by insulting as cow piss drinkers, mo fos and turds? And I have heard plenty of disrespect of Hindu religion from Sikhs on many threads on many forums. But that is also not the point.

The point is not tit for tat, "he said, she said."

The point is Why is Sikh-Hindu Unity considered "anti-Sikh?" And why do Sikhs react to sanatan ideology as if it were something disgusting?

"Who do you consider to be 'sanatan Sikhs'? Jathedar Akali Surjit Singh Ji, Buddha Dal has said Sikhi is not Sanatan, many Nirmalas believe the same. Furthermore, where have you seen insults to any puratan Sikh sampardas?"

Nihang Jatha, Nanaksar, Nirankaris, Nirmalay, Seva-panthis, Ravidasis, Udasis, Radhasoamis, Namdharis, Ramgarias, Sikligers.

Buddha Dal is not sanatan? Well Hazoori Sahib Singhs do tilak of shastars following jhatka of a black goat. And they keep aarati. These are sanatan traditions originating from Kali puja. Insults? Yes, Dal Khalsa issued a statement in April of this year that Sikhs should have no tolerance for sanatan sects or sampradayas which had tradition of dedhari gurus or baba sants and threatened they should be dealt with by any force necessary. And shortly after this, the Ravidasi baba was gunned down.

Need I hunt down the many insulting and crude posts fanatic Sikhs have made about ANYONE and ANY SECT which does not conform to their narrow interpretation of "Sikh religion?" And what exactly would that prove? If you want to fight, you will deny the obvious. And I suppose you didn't see the incredible hate addressed to the Chamar community following the shooting of baba Ramanand due to Chamar-Jatt hostility either?

Why are different Sanatan sects being threatened with violence and treated to insults? Why are Hindus being called cow piss drinkers, turds and mo fos? And you and I both know how tame these comments are compared to the many outside this forum. Let's not be naive.

Nirmalay are not sanatan, and yet they are traditional Mahants who kept murthis in Gurdwaras and were the Vedic scholars of the Panth. Okay, reinvent reality if it suits you.

Edited October 23, 2009 by HarjasKaur

[HarjasDevi]

"Guru Ji themselves say that it is the third panth. How can his Sikhs say otherwise?

Show me where exactly with citation so that I can go look it up to read."

"Khalsa rehat", from Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, from a saroop found at Hazoor Sahib, well away from the influence of Singh Sabha.

That is not a citation I can independently verify. Is a copy of this separate swaroop of Shri Dasm Granth available which is preserved from Singh Sabha influence? Because it would be very interesting, many scholars would like to know.

Did you read this yourself? Take photos of the swaroop? Or is it just word of mouth no one can verify?

And we need to look at interpretation. A Panth is a path or way of religious practice and applies to separate sects and sampradayas, not a religion. Guru Nanak Panth has been a spiritual unity between the warring Hindustanis and Thuraks, which is why only these 2 conflicting paths to God are being mentioned. Outside of this context, a "Third Religion" is meaningless since there are hundreds of different religions. But I would be very interested to know about a volume of Shri Dasm Granth bani preserved from tat Khalsa corruption, absolutely. And especially to make side by side comparisons of any differences, distortions or deliberate omissions on part of the SGPC.

[Matheen]

Nihang Jatha, Nanaksar, Nirankaris, Nirmalay, Seva-panthis, Ravidasis, Udasis, Radhasoamis, Namdharis, Ramgarias, Sikligers.

Nihangs don't consider themselves Sanatan, neither do the oldest Sikh Taksals.

Nanaksar is a relatively new Samparda and don't consider themselves Sanatan.

Nirankaris are not Sikhs, so they can do what they like.

Nirmaley are divided as well, there are many branches and many don't consider themselves sanatan.

Ravidasi is a new term, created for political reasons.

Radhasoamis aren't Sikh.

Namdharis don't recognise Guru Granth Sahib Ji and you're probably right about them.

Ramgharia is not a jatha or samparda.

Buddha Dal is not sanatan?

I'm sure the Jathdar knows better than you whether they are sanatan or not.

Well Hazoori Sahib Singhs do tilak of shastars following jhatka of a black goat. And they keep aarati.

Any colour goat is ok, they don't discriminate on colour. Have you heard the words of the Aarti?

And I suppose you didn't see the incredible hate addressed to the Chamar community following the shooting of baba Ramanand due to Chamar-Jatt hostility either?

He was shot by people from the Ravidasia community! Check their names, the only thing is that they were Amritdhari. Have you heard some of the things Ramanand said about Guru Gobind Singh Ji?

Why are Hindus being called cow piss drinkers,

Because some of them drink cow-piss. There was an article on the BBC News site and another in the Times of London, detailing how some Hindus are going to commercially market cow urine.

and yet they are traditional Mahants who kept murthis in Gurdwaras....

Yes the do study Vedant, as do many other Sampardas. However, it wasn't Nirmaley who put murtis into Gurudwaras. Guru Sahib calls murtis 'useless stone' and says he is an idol-breaker, why would his Sikhs ignore him?

Guru Rakha.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Matheen

[Matheen]

That is not a citation I can independently verify. Is a copy of this separate swaroop of Shri Dasm Granth available which is preserved from Singh Sabha influence? Because it would be very interesting, many scholars would like to know.

Did you read this yourself? Take photos of the swaroop? Or is it just word of mouth no one can verify?

The 'theesra panth' reference is in all saroops of Dasam Bani, my point above refers to "Sikhi Rehat - Sri Mukhvaak Patshahi 10" which mentions all 5 Kakkars, bans tobacco and halal, etc etc, which is in some saroops and published in the Hazoori Das Granthi.

The main panths at the time were Hindu and Islam. The theesra, niyaara panth is Gursikhi.

Best to keep your feet in one boat, lest you drown.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Matheen

[chatanga1]

It is the teaching of the Singh Sabhia Tat Khalsas that Sikhism should be separated from association with Hindu ideologies. Modern Tat Khalsa Sikhs who adhere to the basic institutions of modern Sikhism, such as SGPC and Akal Takhat political pre-eminance, who reject as "Hindu ritualism" such sanatan practices as Nihang Jatha and Hazoori Jatha practice of jhatka, or aarati, or prakash of all 3 Granths, or placing blood tilak on shastars, etc. are in fact espousing Singh Sabhia ideology and beliefs. These are political beliefs interjected into the Sikh Panth within the last 100 years and have no purataan parallel.

but that does not answer my original statement. it does in the fashion of the website in question skip around it.

Moreover, if you hadn't noticed there has been an escalating conflict between Pakistan and India since the partition. China has been trying to claim Kashmir and arming the Pakistani intelligence agencies, who in turn arm the Islamic mujahideen. The fact remains that Pakistan and China have infiltrated the Punjab region in their efforts to break Indian National Unity. The Sikh militant organizations which sought refuge in Pakistan have long been working together with the Islamic Mujahideen and Pakistani National interests.

didnt the freedom loving indians forge an alliance with hitler?

didnt the same freedom loving indians forge an alliance with the japanese?

KATHMANDU: Besides issuing separate visas to Indian passport holders from Jammu and Kashmir,

China is also projecting the disputed territory as an independent country in other ways.

Visitors to Tibet, especially journalists invited by the Chinese government, are given handouts

where Kashmir is indicated as a country separate from India

didnt india see bangladesh as seperate from pakistan?

Pakistan’s rationale for fueling militancy and separatism in Jammu & Kashmir and terrorism in other parts of India is based on the premise that it is the sole custodian of Muslim interests everywhere, even more so in India. Having fought four wars with us and having been defeated in all of them, it is now fathering terrorist groups to wage jihad against India...

has the indian conduct with its minorities been any better than the pakistanis against india? one is terrorist group, the other a terrorist state.

Even an old clip of Operation Bluestar shows the weapons of the Sikh Militants were of Chinese manufacture

So when analyzing the real forces which are behind the Sikh-Hindu disunity efforts, it doesn't take very long to find the criminal hand of Pakistan and China.

dont the same muslim groups who fight against china also use chinese weapons? did they buy them from china or produce them themselves in dera ghazi khan?

India has sent 20,000 more troops to eastern states where a Maoist Naxalite insurgency is gaining strength.

Some analysts question whether India has the breadth and strength for an escalated campaign.

Naxal Insurgency

Most Hindu's and Sanatan Sikhs believe current political situation is a gross manipulation of holy Sikh religion by hostile forces.

really? most of the engish beleived that they had brought culture and progression to india by ruling it for centuries.

And as for the naive assertion that the "weapons were planted by the Indian government," yeah, right.

why not? they lied about torturing and killing people in false encounters.

For example Simranjit Singh Mann, former head of Shiromani Akali Dal Amritsar videotaped shouting "Pakistan Zindabad" and praising their propaganda to achieve alliance with Sikhs and recognition of Khalistan together with his arrest for treason paint the picture that some radical Sikhs groups are actively collaborating with Pakistan.

in the same way that india helped various factions of the mujahideen ?

So when Sikhs begin to post hate speech against Hindu's and Hinduism and justify the murder of Sanatan Sikh dera leaders and trash Sikh-Hindu Unity efforts while many times promoting aims of the Pakistani Intelligence forces, then yes, it is reasonable to assume some people will believe you are acting in the interests of Pakistan to further divide India as a sovereign country and to spread the kind of hate and disunity which leads to violence. Is there a spiritual purpose behind it? See, many Sanatan Sikhs believe these political manipulations and corruptions defile Sikhi and don't represent it at all.

what was the spiritual purpose behind the smearing of Sant Jarnaill Singh?

This is some of things they have posted under the guise of Hindu-Sikh unity :

calling the 5 ks useless.

sayng that Guru Arjan copied Bhagat Bani without their consent.

calling 8 of the Guru's a joke.

claiming that Guru Harkrishan was given gurgaddi cos Ram Rai was the son of a lowcaste maid of Guru Har Rai.

saying that Gurus beleeived in caste discrimination.

What you are talking about are a collection of individuals with a collection of opinions, not one of which represents Hindu Dharma or even a particular sanatan Sikh sect. If you have a problem with those opinions, write you're rebuttal. But analyzing some of the issues under debate, can you explain WHY someone would believe the panj kakkars are "useless" from a spiritual perspective?

there are way of asking questions in an enquiring manner and ways of insulting. sadly you harp on about my use of the words "turd and mofo" but overleook the deliberate insults of individuals. then bang on about how the singh sabhias are narrowminded.

Now, you are mixing apples with oranges in this phrase:

"saying that Gurus beleeived in caste discrimination."

no, im not mixing anything. that was a topic on the website.

There is a difference between caste "discrimination" and believing in the caste-varna-jati system. So here again, we're back to the issue of differing opinions and not "disrespect of teachings."

tell this to the fools who mock your Guru, in the guise of brotherhood.

Vaishnav sants initiated a caste based reform hundreds of years before Guru Nanak Dev Ji was even born. And these teachings of spiritual evolution and equality are what appear in Vaishnav bhagat bani. These teachings are based on the Srimad Bhagavatum which teaches that a persons gunas, his temperament, not his birth determine his true varna, and that everybody is intended to be a brahmana, servant and devotee of God. So in the original Vedic system, even the lowly Shudra can be a brahmin, and a born brahmin a shudra based on his mentality. And it is this Vaishnav reform philophy which is found in Sikh Gurbani.

ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥

raamadhaas sodtee thilak

dheeaa gur sabadh sach neesaan jeeo ||5||

The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark,

the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad. ||5||

~SGGS Ji ang 923

You do not find ANYWHERE in Gurbani, rejection of the caste-varna system. You do not find ANYWHERE promotion of caste discrimination. But the issue comes down to a matter of different opinions and different knowledge people bring to these discussions. Simply to read the Gurbani literally and believe the Vedic Vaishnav reform in the Varna system, together with the historical fact that not a single Guru Sahibaan ever married out of his caste and that Guru Granth Sahib records Guru caste surnames, or that historical pothis record what caste the panj piare were reflects that complete "rejection" of the caste-Varna system did NOT occur, although rejections of the CORRUPTIONS of it did.

ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥

khathree braahaman soodh vais oupadhaes chahu varanaa ko saajhaa ||

The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.

~SGGS Ji ang 747

ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਆਸ੍ਰਮ ਹਹਿ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵੈ ਸੋ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥

braahaman khathree soodh vais chaar varan chaar aasram hehi jo har dhhiaavai so paradhhaan ||

There are four castes: Brahmin, Kh'shaatriya, Soodra and Vaishya, and there are four stages of life. One who meditates on the Lord, is the most distinguished and renowned.

~SGGS Ji ang 861

ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜੋ ਬਿੰਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤਾ ॥

so braahaman breham jo bindhae har saethee rang raathaa ||

He alone is a Brahmin, who knows the Lord Brahma, and is attuned to the Love of the Lord.

~SGGS Ji ang 68

ਬਬਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜਾਨਤ ਤੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ॥

babaa breham jaanath thae brehamaa ||

BABBA: One who knows God is a Brahmin.

~SGGS Ji ang 258

ਅਧਮ ਚੰਡਾਲੀ ਭਈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣੀ ਸੂਦੀ ਤੇ ਸ੍ਰੇਸਟਾਈ ਰੇ ॥

adhham chanddaalee bhee brehamanee soodhee thae sraesattaaee rae ||

The lowly outcaste becomes a Brahmin, and the untouchable sweeper becomes pure and sublime.

~SGGS Ji ang 381

It sounds like a foolish opinion of someone who doesn't know any better. But I don't read anything "bad" into it. Not even every Sikh understands the passing of the Jyoth from one Guru to another, why would you expect eveyone to have the same undertsanding as you do? Instead of calling him names, why don't you share that gyaan which you gain from dhyaan with him instead? If you can't do Sikhi parchaar why drop to the level of insults in the name of defending Sikhi?

Vaishnav in Gurmat terms is not the same as Vaishanv in hindu dharma.

perhaps you could kindly make it clear what these holy devotees of Vishnu are trying to do?

You should know that not every Hindu is a Vaishnav. And the people who have different opinions about the meaning of Gurbani or the historical relationships and stories withing different Sikh sampradayas are not all going to agree on things. But your comment about "holy devotees of Vishnu" following calling as mo fo's and turds is "disrespectful" of Gurbani.

an you should know that that i did not call devotes of vishnu turds or mofos. i called a particular person for what garbage he had written. stop looking for drama.

ਬਬਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜਾਨਤ ਤੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ॥

babaa breham jaanath thae brehamaa ||

BABBA: One who knows God is a Brahmin.

ਬੈਸਨੋ ਤੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੁਚ ਧਰਮਾ ॥

baisano thae guramukh

such dhharamaa ||

A Vaishnaav is one who, as Gurmukh, lives the righteous life of Dharma.

ਬੀਰਾ ਆਪਨ ਬੁਰਾ ਮਿਟਾਵੈ ॥

beeraa aapan buraa mittaavai ||

One who eradicates his own evil is a brave warrior;

~SGGS Ji ang 258

Gurbani calls a Vaishnav as Gurmukh.

and hindus call vaishnav as one who worship vishnu. the difference is blatant.

ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਜਿਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥

baisano

so jis oopar suprasann ||

The true Vaishnaav, the devotee of Vishnu, is the one with whom God is thoroughly pleased.

ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥

bisan kee maaeiaa thae hoe bhinn ||

He dwells apart from Maya.

ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਿਹਕਰਮ ॥

karam karath hovai nihakaram ||

Performing good deeds, he does not seek rewards.

ਤਿਸੁ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਕਾ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਧਰਮ ॥

this

baisano

kaa niramal dhharam ||

Spotlessly pure is the religion of such a Vaishnaav;

ਕਾਹੂ ਫਲ ਕੀ ਇਛਾ ਨਹੀ ਬਾਛੈ ॥

kaahoo fal kee eishhaa nehee baashhai ||

he has no desire for the fruits of his labors.

ਕੇਵਲ ਭਗਤਿ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਚੈ ॥

kaeval

bhagath keerathan sang raachai ||

He is absorbed in devotional worship and the singing of Kirtan, the songs of the Lord's Glory.

ਮਨ ਤਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥

man than anthar simaran

gopaal

||

Within his mind and body, he meditates in remembrance on the Lord of the Universe.

ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਹੋਵਤ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ॥

sabh oopar hovath kirapaal ||

He is kind to all creatures.

ਆਪਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜੈ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ॥

aap dhrirrai avareh

naam japaavai

||

He holds fast to the Naam, and inspires others to chant it.

ਨਾਨਕ ਓਹੁ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੨॥

naanak ouhu

baisano

param gath paavai ||2||

O Nanak, such a Vaishnaav obtains the supreme status. ||2||

ਭਗਉਤੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਾ ਰੰਗੁ ॥

bhagouthee

bhagavanth bhagath kaa rang ||

The true Bhagaautee, the devotee of Adi Shakti, loves the devotional worship of God.

~SGGS Ji ang 274

Gurbani calls the Vaishnav who worships Gopaal, name of Har Krishna as attaining the liberation. Nothing anywhere in Gurbani rejects or disrespects Vaishnavism or Har Krishana. Neither should you.

Edited October 25, 2009 by chatanga1

[Silence]

Everyone have a read of Sri Uggardanti Bani!! WOO Gurmat FTW

[HarjasDevi]

"That is not the answer. I repeat, Hukam is first step in Sikh's journey. Living Guru and Chela relationship is not Hukam. First understand Hukam and then we can talk. Long posts do not mean anything."

The Sikhs were never "living Gurus?" Why would you think the concept of living Gurus so foreign to Sikhi when there were 10 physical bodies of Guru which were served in worship puja including pada puja also known as washing and drinking the foot wash of a Guru, a sanatan tradition.

Sikhi and hukam were never about Guruji's hukam?

Guru shishya relationship is not the first step of Sikhi, but hukam is, even before diksha/dheekya? Without acceptance of the Guru, how can there be a Guru ji's hukam?

ਦੀਖਿਆ ਆਖਿ ਬੁਝਾਇਆ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਸਚਿ ਸਮੇਉ ॥

dheekhiaa

aakh bujhaaeiaa sifathee sach samaeo ||

Those who have accepted the Guru's Teachings and who have found the path

remain absorbed in the Praises of the True Lord.

~SGGS Ji ang 150

ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਉਸ ਕੀ ਸਰਣੀ ਪਰੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਕੰਬਹਿ ਪਾਪੈ ॥

jo nar ous kee saranee parai this kanbehi paapai ||

Sins run away from that man, who seeks the Sanctuary of the Lord.

ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੀ ਮਲੁ ਉਤਰੈ ਗੁਰ ਧੂੜੀ ਨਾਪੈ ॥

janam janam kee mal outharai gur dhhoorree naapai ||

The filth of countless incarnations is washed away, bathing in the dust of the Guru's feet.

ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਣਾ ਮੰਨਿਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਸੋਗੁ ਨ ਸੰਤਾਪੈ ॥

jin har bhaanaa manniaa this sog n santhaapai ||

Whoever submits to the Lord's Will does not suffer in sorrow.

~SGGS Ji ang 1097

Dheekya and bathing in the dust of Guru's feet IS submission to the Guru's Will.

ਕਿਸੁ ਸੇਵਉ ਕਿਸੁ ਦੇਵਉ ਚੀਤੁ ॥

kis saevo kis dhaevo cheeth ||

Whom should I serve? Unto whom should I dedicate my consciousness?

ਕਿਸੁ ਪੂਛਉ ਕਿਸੁ ਲਾਗਉ ਪਾਇ ॥

kis pooshho kis laago paae ||

Whom should I ask? At whose feet should I fall?

ਕਿਸੁ ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥੫॥

kis oupadhaes rehaa liv laae ||5||

By whose teachings will I remain absorbed in His Love? ||5||

ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੀ ਗੁਰ ਲਾਗਉ ਪਾਇ ॥

gur saevee gur laago paae ||

I serve the Guru, and I fall at the Guru's Feet.

ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰੀ ਰਾਚਉ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਇ ॥

bhagath karee raacho har naae ||

I worship Him, and I am absorbed in the Lord's Name.

ਸਿਖਿਆ ਦੀਖਿਆ ਭੋਜਨ ਭਾਉ ॥

sikhiaa dheekhiaa

bhojan bhaao ||

The Lord's Love is my instruction, sermon and food.

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੀ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਉ ॥੬॥

hukam sanjogee nij ghar jaao ||6||

Enjoined to the Lord's Command, I have entered the home of my inner self. ||6||

~SGGS Ji ang 221

Clearly BEFORE Hukam, is "falling at the Guru's feet" (prapatti) and accepting Dheekya (initiation).

And what is dheekya intiation in Gurbani?

ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਹਉ ਜੀਵਾ ॥

simar simar thaa ko ho jeevaa ||

Meditating, meditating in remembrance on Him, I live.

ਚਰਣ ਕਮਲ ਤੇਰੇ ਧੋਇ ਧੋਇ ਪੀਵਾ ॥੧॥

charan kamal thaerae dhhoe dhhoe peevaa ||1||

I wash Your Lotus Feet, and drink in the wash water. ||1||

~SGGS Ji ang 740

"Living Guru and Chela relationship is not Hukam. First understand Hukam and then we can talk."

Do you have a concept of what Gurbani actually says? there is no COMMAND of DIVINE WILL to follow if there is no connection/initiation/dheekya which establishes you as a shishya in the first place.

It is the surrendering of the mind to a Guru which is the beginning of obedience. This and this alone is what it means to be a slave/das of a Satguru. And that obedience is established through prapatti (throwing oneself down) and Raja pada (at the feet of the Guru Master). This IS the essence of "Hukam Raja-ee chalna."

Without it you don't even have a Guru and you aren't even a Sikh, shishya, chaylaa.

ਪ੍ਰਣਵਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਅਗਮੁ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥

pranavath naanak agam sunaaeae ||

Prays Nanak, I share the mysterious secrets of God.

ਗੁਰ ਚੇਲੇ ਕੀ ਸੰਧਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥

gur chaelae kee sandhh milaaeae

||

The Guru and His disciple are joined together!

ਦੀਖਿਆ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਖਾਇ ॥

dheekhiaa

dhaaroo bhojan khaae ||

One who eats this food, this medicine of the Teachings,

~SGGS Ji ang 877

ਗੁਰ ਚੇਲੇ ਅਪਨਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥

gur chaelae apanaa man maaniaa ||

When the disciple's mind accepts the Guru,

ਨਾਨਕ ਦੂਜਾ ਮੇਟਿ ਸਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੮॥੩॥

naanak dhoojaa maett samaaniaa ||8||3||

O Nanak, duality is eradicated, and he merges in the Lord. ||8||3||

~SGGS Ji ang 904

"I repeat, Hukam is first step in Sikh's journey. Living Guru and Chela relationship is not Hukam."

Guru Chela relationship is the only boat of mukti. Dheekya and commitment is the first step, which charan pahul was replaced by Guru Gobind Singh Ji with Khande Ki Pahul. FIRST STEP OF A SIKH OR HE ISN'T EVEN A SIKH! Hukam proceeds from it and dictates the sadhana/discipline/rehit and sacrifice required of a chela. Without diksha, a chela has no obligation to fulfill rehit/sadhana of a Guru, because there is no bond/commitment.

"Diksa (Sanskrit: dīkṣā, "preparation or consecration for a religious ceremony") is the giving of mantra or initiation by the guru in Indian religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. Diksa is given in a one-to-one ceremony, and typically includes the taking on of a serious spiritual discipline. The word is derived from the Sanskrit root dā ("to give") plus kṣi ("to destroy") or alternately from the verb root dīkṣ ("to consecrate")." Diksha

[drawrof]

Nirmalay with murtian?.....that's a first

I've seen samadhs being created for older mahapurash but I do not know of any account of murtian.....please enlighten.

[Matheen]

Guru Chela relationship is the only boat of mukti. Dheekya and commitment is the first step, which charan pahul was replaced by Guru Gobind Singh Ji with Khande Ki Pahul. FIRST STEP OF A SIKH OR HE ISN'T EVEN A SIKH! Hukam proceeds from it and dictates the sadhana/discipline/rehit and sacrifice required of a chela. Without diksha, a chela has no obligation to fulfill rehit/sadhana of a Guru, because there is no bond/commitment.

I agree! and our Guru now is Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Bani Guru, Guru Hai Bani. There are Sants, Mahapurkhs etc, but the real ones only ever take you closer to Gurbani, not themselves. The Budha Dal Rehat Maryada is on-line if you search, and want to see what they say about engaging in Hindu/ Muslim worship or visiting Hindu mandirs.....

[HarjasDevi]

"He was shot by people from the Ravidasia community! Check their names, the only thing is that they were Amritdhari. Have you heard some of the things Ramanand said about Guru Gobind Singh Ji?"

So you are saying the shooting was justified? And Sikhs should go around killing people from other sampradayas for political reasons or because they get upset at different interpretations of Sikhism?

You think if someone could cut off Durga Ma's nose and Guru Ji wouldn't be upset about it because Durga Ma can take care of Herself, that Guru Ji is going to be so upset that someone says something about Him? That Singhs should play judge, jury and executioner and shoot someone to death over words?

What actions did the Tat Khalsa community take to publically educate the Ravidasi sangat or filmed meetings of Gyani Ji's to teach something before this outrageous act of thuggery?

And this is a justification for terrorizing a sangat and murdering an unarmed old man? Because of hearsay? Because someone said he said? And just like the rumors about Darshan Das that grow like Pinocchio's nose. Anyone can say anything.

Shooting unarmed people when they have no chance and don't expect it is the act of cowards. To shoot an unarmed old man and act like bullies enforcing the will of God and terrorizing a sangat is demonic. Why justify that?

[Matheen]

So you are saying the shooting was justified?

No. You said it was a jatt-chamar conflict, when in fact it was an internal issue.

How much nindiya can one keep hearing of his Guru before doing something about it. Guru Ji themselves say, " Gur Ki Nind Suneh Na Kan.....this ko peht karo kirpan".

Don't even bring Darshan das into it.

Guru Rakha.

[HarjasDevi]

"The Budha Dal Rehat Maryada is on-line if you search, and want to see what they say about engaging in Hindu/ Muslim worship or visiting Hindu mandirs."

The Sikh Rehit Maryada was first compiled in 1950. It is NOT purataan. You are talking about the SGPC Rehit Maryada. Budha Dal just copied those Singh Sabha parts to theirs. All the Sikh Jathas did that.

Means that the Singh Sabhia anti-Hindu, anti-Sanatan interpretation of "Gurmat" was a political imposition with the development of a new document SRM which didn't even exist before that. Means it's NOT Gurmat. It's Singh Sabha/SGPC Mat.

[Matheen]

You are talking about the SGPC Rehit Maryada. Budha Dal just copied those Singh Sabha parts to theirs. All the Sikh Jathas did that....

Why in the world would the Dal Panth copy SGPC Maryada? Do you know what they call the SGPC?

In fact, I think the SGPC one doesn't have those parts.

Here, from the Buddha Dal Gutka Sahib:

h. Devi - Devtey - Moorti pooja, Marhi - Masaani - Math - pooja, Shagan - apshagan, Tirath-Bart rakhney , Sootak - Patak, CChho - CChaat, Sraadh karney , Chhaiaa, puchheaa, Jantar-Mantar-Tantar aadh bharam karan to sada nirlep rehna, eh nahi mananney.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Matheen

[HarjasDevi]

Why in the world would the Dal Panth copy SGPC Maryada? Do you know what they call the SGPC?

In fact, I think the SGPC one doesn't have those parts.

Here, from the Buddha Dal Gutka Sahib:

h. Devi - Devtey - Moorti pooja, Marhi - Masaani - Math - pooja, Shagan - apshagan, Tirath-Bart rakhney , Sootak - Patak, CChho - CChaat, Sraadh karney , Chhaiaa, puchheaa, Jantar-Mantar-Tantar aadh bharam karan to sada nirlep rehna, eh nahi mananney.

Because the SRM didn't exist until the Singh Sabha Scholars of the SGPC complieled it and the Panth accepted it. It doesn't matter what they call it or what their attitude toward them is. There were huge political changes influencing modern Sikhism and one of them is the creation of the Sikh Rehit Maryada. And it does have the parts you mentioned. I quoted them all the time. It's additional Singh Sabha political commentary tucked in together with the rehits.

SRM isn't a Gurmat source.

[Matheen]

The Buddha Dal have had the same Rehat Maryada for long before the Singh Sabha was conceived.

[HarjasDevi]

The Buddha Dal have had the same Rehat Maryada for long before the Singh Sabha was conceived.

Just saying does not make it so. Such are empty argumentative statements with no truth or substance. If you want to prove a point, then do background check and provide citation reference so everyone can see some proof of it's reality. Anyone can fill up space with just opinion. If opinion is based on nothing, then it is already half a lie. Opinions can be wrong, but just talk is an eyesore.

Keeping in view that many Rehits in various Rehit Namae lacked logic and were contrary to Gurbani, a new Sikh Rehit Maryada, Code of Conduct, was drafted by the Rouh Reet Committee, appointed by the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC) during 1931. The draft prepared by this committee was further discussed by the Religious Advisory Committee of the SGPC. After 14 years the Religious Advisory Committee submitted the draft to the SGPC on January 7, 1945. Consequently the SGPC in its meeting of February 3, 1945 vide resolution # 97 has approved to do additions and deletions according to the recommendations of Religious Advisory Committee. It means that there were some additions and deletions, recommended by the Religious Advisory Committee, to be done. However, it is not clear from it and elsewhere in the text, whether the recommended additions and deletions were done or not. It is also not clear when and by whom it was declared as a statute. I have not come across any such edict (Hukm Nama), issued by the Akal Takht or SGPC, where the presently circulated Sikh Rehit Maryada (Sikh Code of Conduct) has been declared as a statute for the Sikhs. In spite of the above facts most Amritdhari Sikhs were unanimous in accepting it as an approved statute by the Akal Takht and the SGPC, when I discussed it with them.

Now the question arises: If it is a code then it should have been written like a code and should be interpreted as a code (Code = a systematic statement of a body of law; especially: one given statutory force). Thus, it ought to be free from redundancies and uncertainties, and must not be capable of being understood in two or more possible senses. Unfortunately, it is not so with the present Code of Conduct, published by the SGPC.

In spite of above facts Mr. Gurtej Singh (6) has indicated his concern to protect the Rehit Maryada: "Shall we not discourage those trying to raise controversies regarding the Rehit Maryada, and politely bring to their notice that their activity, being grounded in subjectivity is detrimental to basic panthic interest." Similarly, in the recent 'Declaration' (4), the SGPC has urged the Sikhs to be loyal to Hukm Namae and Rehit Maryada without evaluating their authenticity and validity according to the Gurbani, science and logic. It appears that it was declared so that nobody could dare to raise any controversy on it. In fact, it would have been a big step toward understanding of Sikhism in its real perspective if the Sikh authorities, the Akal Takht and the SGPC had taken a decision to revise the 52-year old Rehit Maryada before it is recommended for strict compliance by the Gurdwaras and the Sikhs.

...If some codes formulated by the past famous personalities of Sikhism, like, Bhai Nand Lal, Bhai Chaupa Singh, Bhai Dya Singh (one of the first Panj Pyarae), etc., can be rejected about 52 years ago by the Rouh Reet Committee and the Religious Advisory Committee of the SGPC, then there are no reasons that the present Rehit Muryada, printed by SGPC, cannot be corrected or modified in the light of Gurbani, and logic, the touchstones of the truth. One can compare the views of different authors and the old Rehit Namae given in references 3, 5 and 7, with that of the SGPC to verify the above fact. SRM

Every Jatha had particular oral traditions and rehitnamay. But the document and structure of a Sikh Rehit Maryada did NOT exist until it was codified and created by the SGPC, and accepted by the Panth in about in 1950. As you see from certain printed criticisms, the committee decided without any evidence of convening panj piare for hukamnama and decided for themselves on deletion or revision of certain rehitnamay. Nor was there any Panthic evaluation of the selections apart from the designated SGPC committee. And hence does not constitute any binding force of Gurmat.

The current SRM is a political construction which has selectively decided on particular rehitnamay and added interpolative opinion in the code as authoritative without authority of either Gurmat or force of purataan rehitnamay.

Do your homework at least. Don't just post statements easily contradicted by easily researched fact. We can all see the political instrument of an SGPC Rehit Maryada actually changed purataan rehitnamay without even convening the Panj. Is this supposed to be authoritative?

Edited October 24, 2009 by HarjasKaur

[HarjasDevi]

No. You said it was a jatt-chamar conflict, when in fact it was an internal issue.

How much nindiya can one keep hearing of his Guru before doing something about it. Guru Ji themselves say, " Gur Ki Nind Suneh Na Kan.....this ko peht karo kirpan".

Don't even bring Darshan das into it.

Anyone can say anything. Immediately after the murder Khalsas started blaming the Chamar community that it was an "internal issue" having nothing to do with Jats at all, and now blaming that the shooters were Chamars. And all this when the shooting occurred within 2 months of Dal Khalsa's morcha against dedhari snatan Sikh babas and dera leaders making what is almost a death threat in public hoisting lifesize posters of Babbar Khalsa leaders.

But you people make claims "Khalistan Zindabad Force didn't do it." "Babbar Khalsa didn't do it." "Jats didn't do it." "Khalsa Sikhs didn't do it." "it was the Chamars themselves." Oh really? And wheres the proof? More opinion?

Empty talk is close to lies.

And then add on the irrational comments such as he had it coming because "how much disrespect could a Sikh take?" And shooting up a temple filled with families, old people, women and children. And you don't even have the dignity to say THAT is wrong. But only show mentality that sanatan baba was "intolerably wrong." So "grievously, intolerably" wrong to your self-righteous opinions that you are silent about shooting up innocents to justify that he deserved to get shot!

And why not mention Darshan Dasi? It reflects a pattern of terror and murder by Khalistani fanatics which the whole world should condemn. Who in the hell do these bully khalsas think they are? God's gift to religion?

You should be ashamed to support maha paap like murder of an unarmed old man. The Ravidasi sangat calls these allegations as lies saying he did no such nidya of Guru Sahib. I'm inclined to believe them over supporters of killers. And without proof, you should be quiet or you may be found guilty spreading lies amongst the Guru's sangat and just to support ugliness.

That's not right. Just say, "I think..." Because you've given no authority to know

Edited October 24, 2009 by HarjasKaur

[laalsingh]

Rajai comes from Sanskrit as there were Rajput rulers who gave commands as Kings.

rājā — the king; BG 1.2

pāda-raja — the dust of your feet; CC Antya 16.22

Rajaa-ee is an Arabic word from Raza meaning by the Divine Will.

Make up your mind.

[HarjasDevi]

Make up your mind.

I did make up my mind. I said it is from Arabic word Raza but has relationship to Raja on basis of close approximation of sound and useage but that derivative use was not as persuasive. However the closest approximation was Prapatti to the actual meaning.

What are you a lingusitic teacher or just making arguments? Do you have any discussion to add or just complaints? Are you familiar with the fact that majority of modern languages all over the world call mata as "Ma?" Thats a derivative linguistic association which experts believe shows relationship to common ancestral language. So, although you may disagree, relational derivative sounds and meanings are not invalid. And in the usage which was closest to both "prapatti" and "charan pahul" the Sanskrit derivation of "Raja pada" was closest. Otherwise words for "God's Command" and "Divine Will" are Arabic. Now what relationship has that to Vaishnav was the question, so one has to look at Braj Basha or Sanskrit equivalents.

Again, are you carrying on a discussion or just nit picking for sake of argumentation?

[laalsingh]

I did make up my mind. I said it is from Arabic word Raza but has relationship to Raja on basis of close approximation of sound and useage but that derivative use was not as persuasive. However the closest approximation was Prapatti to the actual meaning.

What are you a lingusitic teacher or just making arguments? Do you have any discussion to add or just complaints? Are you familiar with the fact that majority of modern languages all over the world call mata as "Ma?" Thats a derivative linguistic association which experts believe shows relationship to common ancestral language. So, although you may disagree, relational derivative sounds and meanings are not invalid. And in the usage which was closest to both "prapatti" and "charan pahul" the Sanskrit derivation of "Raja pada" was closest. Otherwise words for "God's Command" and "Divine Will" are Arabic. Now what relationship has that to Vaishnav was the question, so one has to look at Braj Basha or Sanskrit equivalents.

Again, are you carrying on a discussion or just nit picking for sake of argumentation?

Rajai came from Ridha, Arabic word and Muslim concept. This concept has nothing to do with word Raja (King) or Vaishnav mat. Similar is Punjabi word ਰੱਜਣਾ.

Hukam does not mean relationship between Guru and Chela. Please read Japji's second Pauri. Is Satguru talking about "charan pahul" or "prapatti or whatever" here? No!!

Writing long posts does not make you right. I made it short and was just pointing out that you are a liar.

ALLAH HOO AKBAR!! and Good Bye.

[Matheen]

Just saying does not make it so.

There are plenty of old Nihang Singhs who have been around since before the SGPC Rehat came into existance. You can check with them. THE SGPC Rehat is not accepted by any of the puratan samapardas. It is illogical to think that they would have been influenced by it. Of course there are some common points, why wouldn't there be?

Do your homework at least. Don't just post statements easily contradicted by easily researched fact.....

What researched fact? None of you rambling post is about the Budha Dal or any other Puratan Maryada. All you're doing is labelling anything that goes against your illogical ideas as 'SGPC' or 'Singh Sabha', when in fact the groups I'm talking about have no links at all with the aforementioned. Rehat is passed on from 5 Sikhs to new Sikhs during initiation - a virtually fool proof way of ensuring it remains unchanged. The sanatan texts, being so old, have far more likely hood of having been changed than any Sikh text. How old is the oldest copy of the vedas or gita?

Throughout your rants (over 30 posts in 1-2 days) you've ignored evidence from Gurbani that shows you to be wrong. I guess you've had something to eat by know and since it seems like you spend all your time arguing on the internet, please deal with the points you've ignored so far, including Laalsingh's point on Divine will.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Matheen

[Matheen]

But you people make claims "Khalistan Zindabad Force didn't do it." "Babbar Khalsa didn't do it." "Jats didn't do it." "Khalsa Sikhs didn't do it." "it was the Chamars themselves." Oh really? And wheres the proof? More opinion?

Like I said, check their names - they were all from his community.

[Silence]

ਸਗਲ ਜਗਤ ਮੇਂ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਪੰਥ ਗਾਜੈ । ਜਗੈ ਧਰਮ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਸਗਲ ਦੁੰਦ ਭਾਜੈ ।

In the whole world will roar the Khalsa Panth. Dharma will flourish and all else ‘Dund’ (Hindu and Islam) will disappear.