Hindu Sikh "unity"

[tonyhp32]

Harjas 'kaur'

I think you need to use reliable sources rather that wikipedia as that reference to the 1901 census of Sikh Rajputs is clearly way off the mark. Sikh Rajputs have always been small in number and the 1931 census only found approx. 50,000 Rajput Sikhs in Punjab. Regarding the 18th century Sikh struggle, you cannot refer to those Hindus who joined the Khalsa as still being Hindus as by joining the Khalsa these Hindus had made a conscious choice to cast off the Hindu religion. What is surprising is that given the ratio of Sikhs to Hindus being at best 1:10 why was there no parallel Hindu movement against the Mughals and Afghans in Punjab. Leave aside the Hill Rajputs who were collaborators of the Mughals, there was not Hindu Rajput resistance in Punjab. The Hindu Jats were also in greater number than the Sikhs Jats in Punjab at that time yet there was no Hindu Jat movement.

What you are regurgitating is the same old RSS bukwas in which the Hindus of Punjab not having anyone or anything to be proud off in the last 1000 years are trying to claim the Sikh struggle as well as Sikh personages as Hindu. The Sikhs have Ithehaas (history) and the Hindus have Mithehass (mythology)

[HSD1]

Isn't that what China said before the surprise attack in 1962?

And if that's the case, who's funding and arming the Naxals?

And your point is? Scared the chinis will do to you what you did to us in 1984?

Sikhs did all the fighting? Really? And what about the entire Rajput and Jatt regiments that joined them? They didn't come from Hindu background? And once they became Khalsa Sikhs, disciples of the Guru, they stopped having any association with Hindu ancestry and heritage? And Banda Singh Bahadur, born and raised a Rajput AND a dera baba, he takes deeksha with Guru but he can no longer credibly be said to have been a Hindu from Hindu background?

What F***king regiments? In 1699 the people who became 'khalsa sikhs' were already sikhs of the previous gurus. Rajputs and jatts did not join in regiments. What garbage. Regiments werent even used in the Khalsa until Maharaja Ranjit Singh modernised the sikh army. Your ignorance is shocking. As for Banda Singh, of course he wasnt a hindu, he became a sikh.

You see, you're asking where were all the Hindus? And yet here clearly many became submerged into the Army of Guru Gobind Singh. That's not exactly NO Hindus fighting. That's just Hindus JOINING.

The Hindus like my and your ancestors were fighting and dying and being persecuted and becoming enslaved. Why? Because they faced overwhelming odds and not for any racial or ethnic deficiencies. The very same "Hindus" also won great battles when they had military advantage. Did not Guru Gobind Singh Ji lose battles and suffer defeats? The same was happening to all the Hindustanis for hundreds of years.

No hindus at all. Just sikhs. Overwhelming odds? Like hell there were. The muslim invaders never outnumbered the hindus. You are so stupid I still cant believe the mods let you have a say. On sikhnet they would have shut you up a long time ago. Hindus got their asses kicked for centuries. Many chose collaboration and subjugation in order to survive. Gurbani mention many of these sanatans/brahmins who fulfilled this role in the south asian muslim empire.

But why do you call as enemies the same Hindustani people who the Gurus and the Shishyas descended from and not the oppressive Mlecchas?

Err you are stupid. How can people who are dead be my enemies? Stop twisting what i say. Hindustanis today are not the same as some random hindus from thousands of years ago. Just because you may look like a monkey as your ancestors were apes millenia ago does not mean that everyone has such retarded issues with heritage.

As for the origins of singh or khandas, what is your point? Paganism outdates hinduism. Some people even say that the aryans were an ethnic group who adopted their culture off a larger ethnic group before moving into india and killing dravidians (or those dark skinned demons your 'good' gods killed - sounds like something Hitler would have said if he won WW2).

No cares where they came from. Bagpipes arent scottish. Loads of other things are used by nations even though they originated elsewhere. Do you whine about that? Of course not. What about sikh artillery? When the Khalsa captured Mughal cannons, they transferred them to local forts in their control. These were maintained by engineers and smiths in each confederate state as the sikh nation evolved. When Maharaja Ranjit Singh created an empire, the smiths/engineers built a centralised foundry and manufactured guns for artillery troops and forts, using what they had learned from the Mughal pieces. Does that make the guns used in 1800-1849 Mughal? Of course not, they were sikh guns. Your logic is retarded.

Edited October 28, 2009 by HSD

[HSD1]

Who did I kill? Names, dates, locations please. Otherwise don't falsely and blindly accuse.

So its okay for you to do it but not us. Now that is typical hindu mentality.

That is what Gurbani says.

ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਗੁਨਤ ਐਸੇ ਸਭ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Paṛĥaṯ gunaṯ aise sabẖ māre kinhūʼn kẖabar na jānī. ||1|| rahā▫o.

Such scholars and students have all died, and none of them have discovered the inner meaning. ||1||Pause||

ਸਕਤਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਦਉਗਾ ਭਾਈ ॥

Sakaṯ sanehu kar sunaṯ karī▫ai mai na baḏ▫ugā bẖā▫ī.

Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny.

ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥

Ja▫o re kẖuḏā▫e mohi ṯurak karaigā āpan hī kat jā▫ī. ||2||

If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. ||2||

ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕੀਏ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਅਉਰਤ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੀਐ ॥

Sunaṯ kī▫e ṯurak je ho▫igā a▫uraṯ kā ki▫ā karī▫ai.

If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?

ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥

Araḏẖ sarīrī nār na cẖẖodai ṯā ṯe hinḏū hī rahī▫ai. ||3||

She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. ||3||

~SGGS Ji ang 477

Ang 478: Brahma wasted his life away, continually reading the Vedas.

Ang 477: Those who know the Shaastras and the Vedas, astrology and the rules of grammar of many languages; those who know Tantras and mantras and all medicines — even they shall die in the end. || 2 || Those who enjoy regal power and rule, royal canopies and thrones, many beautiful women, betel nuts, camphor and fragrant sandalwood oil — in the end, they too shall die. || 3 || I have searched all the Vedas, Puraanas and Simritees, but none of these can save anyone. Says Kabeer, meditate on the Lord, and eliminate birth and death.

"We?" You were there personally?

Hindus joined the Sikhs against the Mughals. Why would they oppose them?

The use of 'We' as in me and my relation to my ancestors. What about when some hindu buttmunch says 'we beat the mughals' or 'we beat the pakistanis in that war'? Of course that's different according to you. But its funny ripping apart your arguments on this forum.

Funny you also said this: "But why do you call as enemies the same Hindustani people who the Gurus and the Shishyas descended from and not the oppressive Mlecchas?"

So the hindus of today are the same as those around hundreds of years ago? Make your mind up you hypocrite.

Well, seems like the Hindu's were not only fighting in Rajput Armies. The Rajputs were fighting in the Sikh Armies. So how can you say HIndu's were not fighting when they were right beside "you?"

A SIKH RAJPUT IS A SIKH! GOD, HOW RETARDED ARE YOU? A SIKH IS A SIKH. MANY OF OUR ANCESTORS WERE MUSLIMS, HINUDS, CHRISTIANS, JEWS AND OTHER ASSORTED RELIGIONS. ARE THEY HINDU TOO? What a waste of time you are.

[HarjasDevi]

Isn't that what China said before the surprise attack in 1962?

And if that's the case, who's funding and arming the Naxals?

And your point is? Scared the chinis will do to you what you did to us in 1984?

What's with the "us" and "you?"

Did you know I used to be amritdhari with Akj? Do you think atheistic Communists won't bring ruin to Sikhs as well as Hindus and Muslims if they invade India like they invaded Tibet? Who in their right mind would support a Communist Chinee takeover?

Who did I kill? Names, dates, locations please. Otherwise don't falsely and blindly accuse.

So its okay for you to do it but not us. Now that is typical hindu mentality.

Again this over-simplification of reality. When did I ever support of defend the criminal actions of the Gandhi government in pogroms and massacres of Sikhs?

Today Indira and Rajiv are DEAD. That emergency dictatorial government is DEAD. Are you calling Bhai Manmohan Singh Ji as also a "Hindu?" And if the persecutions against the militancy by own Punjabi Sikh Police AND KPS Gill are some kind of "Hindu's murdering YOU personally" and not some propaganda of a schoolboy pretending in his mind to be a hero of a revolution and all he can do is throw insults and slanders into a debate.

I didn't kill anyone. Neither did you. I don't represent criminal government of Gandhis or thugs of murderers and neither do you. SO let's stop the slanders.

"We?" You were there personally?

Hindus joined the Sikhs against the Mughals. Why would they oppose them?

The use of 'We' as in me and my relation to my ancestors. What about when some hindu buttmunch says 'we beat the mughals' or 'we beat the pakistanis in that war'? Of course that's different according to you. But its funny ripping apart your arguments on this forum.

So you are being a "Sikh" buttmunch? Stop with the "we," you weren't fighting there. Sikh buttmunch and Hindu buttmunch both need to shut it!

Funny you also said this: "But why do you call as enemies the same Hindustani people who the Gurus and the Shishyas descended from and not the oppressive Mlecchas?"

So the hindus of today are the same as those around hundreds of years ago? Make your mind up you hypocrite.

All the Sikhs of a hundred years ago are "WE" as in yourself personally and present tense. But all the Hindus of a hundred years ago are not the same as today. And I am a hypocrite to say I am related to both Hindu's and Sikhs and speak on behalf of there being Unity?

How is that being a hypocrite?

A SIKH RAJPUT IS A SIKH! GOD, HOW RETARDED ARE YOU? A SIKH IS A SIKH.

You asked the question, "Where were all the Hindu fighters?" And I answered, they were joining the Sikh Army. Is it not so?

And there were Hindu movements fighting, but as has been mentioned, in the Punjab the Rajputs were collaborating with the Mughals and became enemies of both Sikhs and Hindus. Hindus were weak in the North, Sikhs were strong. But as the reality remains that Hindus were joining the Sikhs it is impossible to say Hindu's disappeared and didn't fight. In fact, their ancestry probably runs in your veins.

Sikh is a religion. Hindu means both a religion AND an ethnicity. ALL Sikhs are ethnically related to the people of Hindustan. If they were represented by the Muslims, why were they fighting AGAINST the Mughals and not joining the treasonous Hill rajas and Rajput collaborators? Muslims did join Sikhs, but not anywhere in the same numbers as the Hindus, and majority of those had been Hindus forced to convert. Moreover, those Muslims who did join were equally opposed to the Mughal oppression, as a kind of collaborator. The fact that Rajputs and Jatts shared the same pinds means nothing to you? When Rajputs and Jatts are fighting to defend the same pinds against Mughal invaders, somehow you can't see relationship?

What F***king regiments? In 1699 the people who became 'khalsa sikhs' were already sikhs of the previous gurus. Rajputs and jatts did not join in regiments. What garbage. Regiments werent even used in the Khalsa until Maharaja Ranjit Singh modernised the sikh army. Your ignorance is shocking. As for Banda Singh, of course he wasnt a hindu, he became a sikh.

So where did the Hindu fighters go? They were fighting in Sikh Army, regiments, Misls throughout Sikh history. You think the discussion is of Hindus who joined Sikhi at only one time in history? Ramgharia Misl had large amount of Rajputs who joined for example. But this is just an example of Rajputs, not to mention there were Hindu Khatris, Aroras, Jats, Tarkhans, Minas, Gujjers, etc. In fact, the persistence of gotra names in Sikhism is proof of "where the Hindu's went."

Use respect when you talk and stop foaming at the mouth. You call yourself a "Sikh" but represent using this kind of language? A debate is not a vulgar insult match. Use civility.

Edited October 28, 2009 by HarjasKaur

[HarjasDevi]

harjas kaur, i'll ask again for the third time, "did Guru ji ever fight any battles against hindus?

simple yes or no, if possible.

It is still all of you against one of me, so I can't possibly answer every single persons demanding questions.

Guruji was from Hindu family and ethnic/religious heritage. Guruji fought alongside Hindu commanders. Guruji accepted shishyas who were Hindus. Guruji also fought against collaborator Hindus. Guruji never rejected Hindus or became their enemy.

What is false is to try to make Hindus all one thing. For example, "Hindus are those dirty (insert here whatever bad name) who betrayed the Guru and Guruji crushed them." That's the kind of fake talk that distorts reality. Sikhs came out of Hindus, no question, and a smaller portion of Muslim converts as well and majority of those most likely because they were Hindu's forced to convert to Muslim. Hindu resistence during those times in Punjab was weakened. This was no longer a Mughal invasion. It was already a Mughal rulership and oppression, especially difficult to fight because, the Rajputs were collaborating with the enemy.

Although this is not true of all Rajputs, as can be seen, Rajput clans joined the Sikhs, including the great Banda Singh Bahadur who was a Hindu RAJPUT who became Guruji's shishya. He doesn't disappear as a Hindu Rajput because Tat Khalsa version of history wants to deny it. Get your history in perspective. Know who these people were, and who and why they were fighting, and stop with ridiculous caricatures of what a "Hindu" is.

Let me rephrase your question and ask you:

Did Guruji wage a war against the Hindu people? Or was He fighting a war which protected people, Sikh and Hindu, living in the same pinds, with convert Hindu soldiers against the Mughals and their Hindu collaborators? One has to ask, why were the Mughals waging a war against the people and forcibly converting them to Islam under torture?

You see, this puts in proper perspective the truth of it.

Edited October 28, 2009 by HarjasKaur

[Guest]

This debate has taken many turns, point by point. Can i please ask harjas kaur to state, what exactly she is trying to prove?. So we can open new thread based on those points with strict guidelines of moderation of staying on the topic and discuss them one by one.

[HarjasDevi]

This debate has taken many turns, point by point. Can i please ask harjas kaur to state, what exactly she is trying to prove?. So we can open new thread based on those points with strict guidelines of moderation of staying on the topic and discuss them one by one.

This thread is Anti-Sikh Propaganda as claimed Sikh-Hindu Unity.

My responses have alternately been answering the twisting and turning questions of the hostile parties accusing Hinduism and Hindu-Sikh Unity efforts to be anti-Gurmat, anti-Sikh propaganda, and something to be suppressed with attacks, insults and even to justifications of murder of sanatan dera leaders.

You can apply your "strict moderation guidelines" but they may still be mis-applied to silencing support of Sikh-Hindu unity viewpoints to cater to the voices of extremism and hostility which intend to forever pivot Sikhs and Hindus as bitter enemies. While this may represent the forum posters, it by no means represents the mainstream Sikh opinion but is the voice of radicalism.

Why, for example, is Sikh-Hindu Unity even under the anti-Sikh Propaganda heading? You see, it already implies bias. I was addressing that bias.

[Akaal_Das]

Who did I kill? Names, dates, locations please. Otherwise don't falsely and blindly accuse.

Hindus involved in genocide . 1984 , Gujrat 2002 , Bombay 1993 and very recent Orissa . So Hindus who is ur next target ? Do u want to start the cycle agains Dalits , Budhists Sikhs and Christians . One by one Killing minorities and accept us say Long Live India .

[drawrof]

In all fairness,

Harjas kaur is not the enemy folks. She may seem like a 'mouthpiece' at best in some views, but seriously layoff. She has her views and she's expressing them. Others have theirs and they express them. I have witnessed, although not active at that time, the guru's get questioned and insulted by bahadur/ishraqi (whatever his handle was at that time) and very few actually stood up to that....

I ask the moderators to actually aggregate all the questions for Harjas and put them in one thread and let harjas answer them...and to be fair, do the same for harjas so others can answer her questions.

Thanks,

[jaikaara]

I request the sangat to stop accusations specially from HSD. We should mind our language and also understand that we r insulting a sikh woman. All that knowledge is dust when you cannot respect women. However scholarly a perosn maybe ifthis is the language which is used he is as lowly as a malechch , even a turak sounds better.

[Mithar]

I request the sangat to stop accusations specially from HSD. We should mind our language and also understand that we r insulting a sikh woman. All that knowledge is dust when you cannot respect women. However scholarly a perosn maybe ifthis is the language which is used he is as lowly as a malechch , even a turak sounds better.

Why would you think a Turk sounds bad? They are people just like you and me. I have known 3 people of Turkic background and they were all very polite and well mannered people.

I do not think that anyone has said anything bad to Harjas Kaur. Some people are understandably angry because of the level of ignorance and hypocrisy displayed by her. To push her Hindutva agenda she has resorted to lying about Sikh history, if that wasnt enough she has twisted the meaning of Gurbani Tukhs and has even claimed that Dasam Bani may have been changed by the British. This is too much for Sikhs to tolerate. Yet Sikhs here have answered and proven wrong here lies point by point. Matheen, HSD, Singh2 Jee have especially played an important role in defeating her Hindutva agenda on this forum.

[Kaljug]

I request the sangat to stop accusations specially from HSD. We should mind our language and also understand that we r insulting a sikh woman. All that knowledge is dust when you cannot respect women. However scholarly a perosn maybe ifthis is the language which is used he is as lowly as a malechch , even a turak sounds better.

She's not a Sikh, and until I have evidence to support the fact, I am not convinced that she is a woman.

If you actually read through the thread, you will understand that that she/he/it has insulted Dasmesh Pita's bania by spreading lies about it being altered when the tuks do not support her idiotic arguments.

HSD has done a great job so far to make Harjas "Kaur" look like the bandri that she/he/it is. I commend him and hope that he will continue to demolish her/his/its pathetic logic with sound arguments.

K.

[HSD1]

What's with the "us" and "you?"

Did you know I used to be amritdhari with Akj? Do you think atheistic Communists won't bring ruin to Sikhs as well as Hindus and Muslims if they invade India like they invaded Tibet? Who in their right mind would support a Communist Chinee takeover?

Turning from a fundamentalist nutjob to a sanatan one is no real sign of intelligence. Is tibet in ruin? The chinese dont think so. East punjab has suffered far worse under hindustan. How would china bring ruin to sikhs? Stop being racist. Sikhs have good relations with chinese diplomats - many of them visit Harmandir Sahib.

Again this over-simplification of reality. When did I ever support of defend the criminal actions of the Gandhi government in pogroms and massacres of Sikhs?

Today Indira and Rajiv are DEAD. That emergency dictatorial government is DEAD. Are you calling Bhai Manmohan Singh Ji as also a "Hindu?" And if the persecutions against the militancy by own Punjabi Sikh Police AND KPS Gill are some kind of "Hindu's murdering YOU personally" and not some propaganda of a schoolboy pretending in his mind to be a hero of a revolution and all he can do is throw insults and slanders into a debate.

I didn't kill anyone. Neither did you. I don't represent criminal government of Gandhis or thugs of murderers and neither do you. SO let's stop the slanders.

What you do with schoolboys is your own business. You clearly stated that what happened in 84 wasnt against sikhs, but was more of a sikh versus sikh affair - you accuse me of over simplification yet you downright twist and lie.

So you are being a "Sikh" buttmunch? Stop with the "we," you weren't fighting there. Sikh buttmunch and Hindu buttmunch both need to shut it!

The use of the word 'we' does not make someone a buttmunch. Sit down and think about that for a minute. Yet again you refuse to address the point. If there is no link between sikhs today and our ancestors then there is no link between hindus of any time period. Therefore there is no link between sikhs and hindus. Defeated by your own logic. How does that feel?

All the Sikhs of a hundred years ago are "WE" as in yourself personally and present tense. But all the Hindus of a hundred years ago are not the same as today. And I am a hypocrite to say I am related to both Hindu's and Sikhs and speak on behalf of there being Unity?

How is that being a hypocrite?

Once again twisting to make yourself look good. The unity you talk of is submission. Also you should learn that the word 'we' can be used in context of speaking of a nation you belong to doing something in the past. Dont worry if you dont understand, no one expects you to.

You asked the question, "Where were all the Hindu fighters?" And I answered, they were joining the Sikh Army. Is it not so?

And there were Hindu movements fighting, but as has been mentioned, in the Punjab the Rajputs were collaborating with the Mughals and became enemies of both Sikhs and Hindus. Hindus were weak in the North, Sikhs were strong. But as the reality remains that Hindus were joining the Sikhs it is impossible to say Hindu's disappeared and didn't fight. In fact, their ancestry probably runs in your veins.

Sikh is a religion. Hindu means both a religion AND an ethnicity. ALL Sikhs are ethnically related to the people of Hindustan. If they were represented by the Muslims, why were they fighting AGAINST the Mughals and not joining the treasonous Hill rajas and Rajput collaborators? Muslims did join Sikhs, but not anywhere in the same numbers as the Hindus, and majority of those had been Hindus forced to convert. Moreover, those Muslims who did join were equally opposed to the Mughal oppression, as a kind of collaborator. The fact that Rajputs and Jatts shared the same pinds means nothing to you? When Rajputs and Jatts are fighting to defend the same pinds against Mughal invaders, somehow you can't see relationship?

No. The funny thing is that you say hindus resisted for hundreds of years. No they didnt. You say they were overwhelmed. No they werent. The muslim rulers made laws that every good looking, intelligent or useful indian has to convert to islam. They didnt want all hindus to convert to islam. There was no democracy back then so having larger numbers made no difference in control of government. All that was needed was a well oiled war machine.

You say hindus joined the sikh army. I once again tell you that when a sikh is a sikh, thats it. His ancestry does not come into it. I have proved this with many points, analogies and even our Gurus say using what our ancestors were as a point of pride is wrong. Stop flogging a dead horse.

As for rajputs and jatts, what does that have to do with anything. If they were hindus they probably waited for an opportunity to riot. If they were sikh they might have fought at our Guru's side. Caste does not come into it. Also, many sikhs did not live in 'pinds' and were forced to become nomadic in a sense. Probably because they didnt trust their neighbours who would have betrayed them to the mughals. Some things never change.

My responses have alternately been answering the twisting and turning questions of the hostile parties accusing Hinduism and Hindu-Sikh Unity efforts to be anti-Gurmat, anti-Sikh propaganda, and something to be suppressed with attacks, insults and even to justifications of murder of sanatan dera leaders.

There you go folks, she openly agrees with what Kaljug highlighted in his first post about what these hindus are calling 'unity'.

Edited October 29, 2009 by HSD

[HSD1]

Harjas kaur is not the enemy folks. She may seem like a 'mouthpiece' at best in some views, but seriously layoff. She has her views and she's expressing them. Others have theirs and they express them. I have witnessed, although not active at that time, the guru's get questioned and insulted by bahadur/ishraqi (whatever his handle was at that time) and very few actually stood up to that....

If we cannot stand up to one form of slander, we should bow down to all others? You may not agree, but Ishraqi was never right in many of his convictions, as was proven on numerous times by sikhs on here. Just because he was a man or muslim does not mean we should be extra 'vicious' or whatever you were expecting.

I ask the moderators to actually aggregate all the questions for Harjas and put them in one thread and let harjas answer them...and to be fair, do the same for harjas so others can answer her questions.

Never. She has been proved wrong, leave it at that. If you love her so much, give her your MSN and she can send bits of Gurbani strung together like conversation for your pleasure.

I request the sangat to stop accusations specially from HSD. We should mind our language and also understand that we r insulting a sikh woman. All that knowledge is dust when you cannot respect women. However scholarly a perosn maybe ifthis is the language which is used he is as lowly as a malechch , even a turak sounds better.

Even if the woman cannot respect herself? Your comment about 'a sikh woman' also implies racism. Are white/black/muslim women not worthy of respect?

Having said that, i have come across many hindu men who get kicks out of pretending to be sikh women on forums, so they can watch little sikh boys 'defend their honour' against other sikhs who are pointing out how bad they are. Maybe you should see what the real world and real people are like before saying such things.

[drawrof]

Harjas kaur is not the enemy folks. She may seem like a 'mouthpiece' at best in some views, but seriously layoff. She has her views and she's expressing them. Others have theirs and they express them. I have witnessed, although not active at that time, the guru's get questioned and insulted by bahadur/ishraqi (whatever his handle was at that time) and very few actually stood up to that....

If we cannot stand up to one form of slander, we should bow down to all others? You may not agree, but Ishraqi was never right in many of his convictions, as was proven on numerous times by sikhs on here. Just because he was a man or muslim does not mean we should be extra 'vicious' or whatever you were expecting.

Quote

I ask the moderators to actually aggregate all the questions for Harjas and put them in one thread and let harjas answer them...and to be fair, do the same for harjas so others can answer her questions.

Never. She has been proved wrong, leave it at that. If you love her so much, give her your MSN and she can send bits of Gurbani strung together like conversation for your pleasure.

I didn't and don't agree with Ishraqi and I certainly don't agree with a snatanism that is being used as a vehicle to bring everyone with Indic roots under one dumb banner. I saw a few people actually step up to what he said (being muslim or male had nothing to do with it...please ask for clarification if you don't understand before assuming things.It'll make the dialogue more constructive), and now it seems like there is a parade of people willing to attack someone who is giving a point of view that is actually more accepted than many have had exposure too...and a point of view that one would not know how to counter if it weren't brought into the open. I am not saying lay low and get walked over. I am simply saying everyone is coming from every angle, I believe your questions are still not answered and I'd like to see structure. I still assert, 'lay off on the personal attacks and have some order'. With regards to your suggestion about msn etc....I'd keep your courting techniques to private emails and banters with your friends on the basketball court. I neither asked for your advice and certainly don't need it.

[HSD1]

I didn't and don't agree with Ishraqi

I was referring to your opinion that no one stood up to Ishraqi enough. Chill out, you're obviously upset about something. Wonder what it is.

If the fact he was male and muslim has nothing to do with it then what is it? Harjas Kaur misquotes gurbani and puts out long winding ignorant posts. Why is there no stopping of that? Maybe if she learnt to make a point like the rest of us and not go round in circles as if it's her day job we would get somewhere.

and now it seems like there is a parade of people willing to attack someone who is giving a point of view that is actually more accepted than many have had exposure too...and a point of view that one would not know how to counter if it weren't brought into the open.

Go on a hindu/muslim forum and try your approach. They wont even give you time to post. Do you believe in letting everyone have their say? If you do, let me warn you: first they will talk the talk, then they will try to walk the walk. Harjas kaur's views on unity is one small step away from a majority persecuting a minority. If you dont believe me look at the history of other civilisations. What would you do if you just lived your life and one day some militant sanatans decide you are actually a paki/chini secret agent and attack you? It may seem farfetched, but so did 84 or the holocaust before they actually happened.

I'd keep your courting techniques to private emails and banters with your friends on the basketball court.

Oh no you got me! How did you know? Lol. So you share your courting techniques over the net and on the court? Lol, I'm just messing with you.

I neither asked for your advice and certainly don't need it.

Well thankyou for your opinion. As you posted I have a right to respond. No need to get so touchy. Go 'shoot some hoops' lol.

[drawrof]

I give credit where it is due, this is from memory and not checking previous posts as I have a day job and come on this between long bouts of my occupation.

TonyHP has always made solid points and although people do/don't agree with him. I recall him bringing forth good points and counterpoints to ishraqi.

Take any permutation of gender and religion/faith and the point is that people should talk with respect. Mind you, someone here was wise/quick enough to find some anti-sikh sentiments being shared by Harjas elsewhare and brought that forth and challenged. That is fair game. The same can be done here. Again,TonyHP has done a good job and your points (banda bahadur being sikh etc), HSD, are valid...in my opinion

I don't go onto hindu/muslim boards as neither of them really matter to me. Further, most of it sounds like fundamentalist gibberish. The rest I am not accultured to and really don't get. I come on this board because I find you have rational people who will actually accept and share points of view. Everyone has an opinion, some stronger than others and that's fair. Even the most sensible/rational people here step up when it's right.

I know where you are coming from with 1984, I am not even going to belittle that argument...good fishermen actually use bait to tackle, and I think that is a solid approach in understanding how to counter attacks that are unthought of.

did you not read my post of 'am I snatan'?

courting techniques...used to share them on a soccer pitch....so yeah pot calling kettle black .

alright I'm out....swish!

[chatanga1]

Let me rephrase your question and ask you:

Did Guruji wage a war against the Hindu people? Or was He fighting a war which protected people, Sikh and Hindu, living in the same pinds, with convert Hindu soldiers against the Mughals and their Hindu collaborators? One has to ask, why were the Mughals waging a war against the people and forcibly converting them to Islam under torture?

You see, this puts in proper perspective the truth of it.

no it doesnt. it just skips round the question with smart talk and fancy words so you can avoid answering the question. I'l will ask for the 4th time, please answer with a yes or no: " did Guru Ji ever fight any battles against Hindus"?

[HarjasDevi]

She's not a Sikh, and until I have evidence to support the fact, I am not convinced that she is a woman.

If you actually read through the thread, you will understand that that she/he/it has insulted Dasmesh Pita's bania by spreading lies about it being altered when the tuks do not support her idiotic arguments.

HSD has done a great job so far to make Harjas "Kaur" look like the bandri that she/he/it is. I commend him and hope that he will continue to demolish her/his/its pathetic logic with sound arguments.

Even if the woman cannot respect herself? Your comment about 'a sikh woman' also implies racism. Are white/black/muslim women not worthy of respect?

Having said that, i have come across many hindu men who get kicks out of pretending to be sikh women on forums, so they can watch little sikh boys 'defend their honour' against other sikhs who are pointing out how bad they are. Maybe you should see what the real world and real people are like before saying such things.

Posted 21 October 2009 - 08:58 PM

View Postds123, on 21 October 2009 - 07:23 PM, said:

are you the same Harjas Kaur who used to post on tapoban forum?

Yes

If we cannot stand up to one form of slander, we should bow down to all others?

And you do not slander?

I used my real name and not some fake ID. Obviously someone has recognized me. Does it occur to you I might even be known in the community? Why are all these attacks personal? How does this prove anything in any discussion except that you people are filled with abusive intolerance and hate of anything Hindu?

no it doesnt. it just skips round the question with smart talk and fancy words so you can avoid answering the question. I'l will ask for the 4th time, please answer with a yes or no: " did Guru Ji ever fight any battles against Hindus"?

I'm not a criminal on trial to be bullied by some lawyer tactic legally narrowing the scope of my answers to manipulate a response favorable to the attorney's client. I answered you. If you don't like the answer, lump it.

And just consider the hostile environment in which I am answering mostly accusations against me personally which is not even a discussion, but a hate fest.

Mind you, someone here was wise/quick enough to find some anti-sikh sentiments being shared by Harjas elsewhare and brought that forth and challenged. That is fair game.

Anti-Sikh? Or anti-Bhasauria/Tat Khasa world-view? Do you think Udasis who share these same kinds of interpretations of Gurbani consider themselves as "anti-Sikh?"

But if you look at the responses I receive, how undeniable anti-Hindu they are. Beyond anti-Hindu, it's anti-Hindu hate propaganda.

I don't go onto hindu/muslim boards as neither of them really matter to me. Further, most of it sounds like fundamentalist gibberish.

I posted on this forum because it has sections discussing Sanatan teachings and sampradaya, relationship between things like Gurmat and Gita, etc, and so open to different beliefs, interpretations, including Islam. So clearly this was not labeled as some "ONLY SIKH KHALISTANI ANTI-HINDU forum." Where one could say, "How dare you post there. Go back to the HIndu forum" But I have since been corrected in my mistaken understanding. Now I know better what a hate-filled, abusive, and anti-Hindu place this is.

I know where you are coming from with 1984, I am not even going to belittle that argument

Why am I blamed for 1984? And I used to be amritdhari Sikh. Do you people really believe ALL Hindus are guilty of all abuses towards Sikhs? You don't even differentiate the Sikh Punjabi police involved in human rights abuses like KPS Gill? But ENTIRE BLAME rests on EVERY HINDU ONLY!

You think Jagdish Tytler didn't have a Sikh mother? Everyone in New Delhi riots was a Hindu including a man with a Sikh mother? Do you stop and think that people in riots are criminals, that these riots were politically manipulated and don't represent spiritual minded religious Hindus at all?

Most Sikhs have seen the movie "Amu." It is a powerful, moving and true movie. I try to show it to all the Hindus I know. It was made by a Bengali Hindu woman who lived through the Delhi riots. Have Sikhs all forgotten there were some Hindus who risked their lives to save Sikhs? But now you dump your hate and blame for every political evil on every Hindu without discrimination. This represents some kind of "truth?"

For years I have been supporting reform of human rights abuses against Sikhs. Does it occur to you there is a reason why I am NOT a member of RSS? Don't I, as a human being, have a right to represent what I DO believe in, and not be saddled with the hate and blame directed to a political organization I don't belong to? What kind of truth is represented by such lies and slanders?

That to me is cowardice, that it is one lady against all you "powerful" Khalsas and the best you can do is use foul language and insults and slanders. A debate, a discussion is about LEARNING the other point of view without necessarily having to agree with it. We can't even learn from each other under these conditions, let alone approach the kind of simple unity which isn't some justification of terrorist attacks and murder.

BECAUSE you propagandistically feel every Hindu or Sanatan person represents your most evil and hated enemy, all manner of abuse, including assassination is tolerated, justified and praised. One day, hopefully, you will be able to think more rationally and regret this hate-filled mindset.

the guru's get questioned and insulted by bahadur/ishraqi (whatever his handle was at that time)

I don't even know anything about this person. Why am I being compared to this person? What does he have to do with me? Why can't I just be accepted as myself? Why do I have to be constantly stereotyped, lumped in with some other hated group or person?

THIS is nindya.

Show me where I did any such personal blame, smearing and slander to any one of you? Have a nice hate forum. Stop smearing and besmirching my personal character like dogs. You know nothing about me personally. You are disgrace to Guru Ji's Khalsa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KBCxlUmI_c

"MY REQUEST TO YOUTH OF TODAY : please break off the barriers of caste and religion ,

don't repeat the mistakes which the people did in past ..try to be ONE ..

YES,WE CAN DO IT .."

Funeral-bhog of Sant Ramanand Ji, Vienna Ravidassi Sangat

Edited October 30, 2009 by HarjasKaur

[Kaljug]

Blah blah blah. I'm a woman with a martyr complex and you are all oppressing me. Bkah blah blah. You proved my idiotic views wrong. You refuse to be the good little Hindus that the Indian government wants you to be so you are all anti-Hindus. I can claim that your holy texts are adulterated when my arguments are proven baseless, but that's Ok because some 4 armed chick told me so. Blah blah.

Go and give your Hindu friends the same message of unity and peace. Your attempts at spreading your Hindutva propaganda here - and it is propaganda as evidenced by your resorting to claiming to be harrassed when you enter a SIKH forum and tell us that we are actually Hindus and when every single pone of your points is proven incorrect - will not work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdQzhGeVHu4&feature=related

Go away,

K.

[Kaljug]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru JI Ki Fateh!

I seriously think the mods need to grow up and realise that allowing people like Bandar Ali, Kala Afghana Ki Fauj, and now this Hariharikrishna "Kaur" to come here and spread there propaganda does more harm than good.

If you honestly think that these matters are important enough to consider, then I don't see why the Gursikhs here cannot simply examine what these people are saying on their websites and books, dissect them, and provide point by point refutation - and then put these things in a sticky.

All that "debate" does with these kind of people is to allow them a platform for their views and, in Harji's case, allow her to live out her martyr fantasies about big bad Khalsay oppressing her Hindu ass.

K.

[HarjasDevi]

Your attempts at spreading your Hindutva propaganda

Hindutva is the political philosophy of the RSS. I told you so many times now, that I'm not RSS. What does murder of Sikhs by Indian government have to do with me? Nothing. I wasn't anywhere near India when all this trouble broke out. So how can I be blamed as responsible for it?

Blah blah blah. I'm a woman with a martyr complex and you are all oppressing me. Bkah blah blah. You proved my idiotic views wrong. You refuse to be the good little Hindus that the Indian government wants you to be so you are all anti-Hindus. I can claim that your holy texts are adulterated when my arguments are proven baseless, but that's Ok because some 4 armed chick told me so. Blah blah.

Personal attacks. Demeaning religion. You accuse me of everything, but never look in the mirror at your own conduct.

I seriously think the mods need to grow up and realise that allowing people like Bandar Ali, Kala Afghana Ki Fauj, and now this Hariharikrishna "Kaur" to come here and spread there propaganda does more harm than good.

If you honestly think that these matters are important enough to consider, then I don't see why the Gursikhs here cannot simply examine what these people are saying on their websites and books, dissect them, and provide point by point refutation - and then put these things in a sticky.

All that "debate" does with these kind of people is to allow them a platform for their views and, in Harji's case, allow her to live out her martyr fantasies about big bad Khalsay oppressing her Hindu ass.

You must have no inner dignity to act like this. A man with dignity doesn't blame the wrong person for someone elses crimes, or spew degrading and mocking disrespect intended to ostracize and scapegoat as "the hated other" making someone vulnerable to hate and violence.

What a representation of Sikhi you have here.

[HarjasDevi]

Main Rules of the forum:

You may not deliberately insult other members. If something someone says appears to you to be utter nonsense you may respond with your own truth, then let others be the judge. Truth always wins.

You may not spam or flood all forum sections with too many postings that contain no intellectual value accept Ghup-Shup Forum section.

You may not use foul language nor override the general norms of civility.

Clashes of opinions are welcome but clashes of personalities are not.

You may not use an offensive nickname as your member name to join.

You do not have to be a scholar to participate in this forum but you must behave like one.

What a joke.

[drawrof]

Harjas Kaur,

I know there is alot to digest. I wanted there to be respect shown for all people posting so I wrote this (Page 10.Posted Today, 09:45 AM). I was responding to HSD and his opinions and views at Posted Today, 02:49 PM...which I must say he has every right to express as well..Albeit with some courtesy. As I asked of him and do the same with you now, please ask for clarification before taking my points off to a tangent....let me clarify....

Quote

Mind you, someone here was wise/quick enough to find some anti-sikh sentiments being shared by Harjas elsewhare and brought that forth and challenged. That is fair game.

Anti-Sikh? Or anti-Bhasauria/Tat Khasa world-view? Do you think Udasis who share these same kinds of interpretations of Gurbani consider themselves as "anti-Sikh?"

But if you look at the responses I receive, how undeniable anti-Hindu they are. Beyond anti-Hindu, it's anti-Hindu hate propaganda.

DRAWROF RESPONSE: read my post Posted 21 October 2009 - 07:54 AM (hindu-sikh unity. Where I stand is very clear. You Posted on 24 October 2009 - 12:36 PM and in that post you said

"Original Sikhism is HINDU! And I don't care who makes threats on me or denounces me, or rejects me for saying it.

Sikhism belongs and has always been a part of original sanatana Dharma.

And to those Hindu haters, when you cut off sect of Kshatriyas as not being representitive of YOUR sect of Vaishnava or pacifistic Hinduism, you are cutting off right arm and leaving your entire heritage without defense and vulnerable to Sikh-Muslim unity efforts by radical Pakistanis and Talibanis who want to butcher Hindus in India and so spread political message of division and disunity and Hindu hatred."

DRAWROF AGAIN: Simply, you've written your points and there will be people who disagree and do not believe that sikhi-sikhism is snatan. These people have the 'right' to defend their view of sikhi....whether you believe in snatan or tat or whatever other type of sikhi you would like to name is of no relevance to my point...please read my points in context with my conversation with HSD p.10 of this topic. On that note, please share these udasi's sources that agree with you and share what they agree with......please enlighten. thanks

I don't go onto hindu/muslim boards as neither of them really matter to me. Further, most of it sounds like fundamentalist gibberish.

I posted on this forum because it has sections discussing Sanatan teachings and sampradaya, relationship between things like Gurmat and Gita, etc, and so open to different beliefs, interpretations, including Islam. So clearly this was not labeled as some "ONLY SIKH KHALISTANI ANTI-HINDU forum." Where one could say, "How dare you post there. Go back to the HIndu forum" But I have since been corrected in my mistaken understanding. Now I know better what a hate-filled, abusive, and anti-Hindu place this is.

DRAWROF: I don't understand what you are responding to. HSD made the following comments to me....I don't see how this relates to you. (again page 10,Posted Today, 04:00 PM)

"Go on a hindu/muslim forum and try your approach. They wont even give you time to post. Do you believe in letting everyone have their say? If you do, let me warn you: first they will talk the talk, then they will try to walk the walk. Harjas kaur's views on unity is one small step away from a majority persecuting a minority. If you dont believe me look at the history of other civilisations. What would you do if you just lived your life and one day some militant sanatans decide you are actually a paki/chini secret agent and attack you? It may seem farfetched, but so did 84 or the holocaust before they actually happened."

Quote

I know where you are coming from with 1984, I am not even going to belittle that argument

Why am I blamed for 1984? And I used to be amritdhari Sikh. Do you people really believe ALL Hindus are guilty of all abuses towards Sikhs? You don't even differentiate the Sikh Punjabi police involved in human rights abuses like KPS Gill? But ENTIRE BLAME rests on EVERY HINDU ONLY!

You think Jagdish Tytler didn't have a Sikh mother? Everyone in New Delhi riots was a Hindu including a man with a Sikh mother? Do you stop and think that people in riots are criminals, that these riots were politically manipulated and don't represent spiritual minded religious Hindus at all?

Most Sikhs have seen the movie "Amu." It is a powerful, moving and true movie. I try to show it to all the Hindus I know. It was made by a Bengali Hindu woman who lived through the Delhi riots. Have Sikhs all forgotten there were some Hindus who risked their lives to save Sikhs? But now you dump your hate and blame for every political evil on every Hindu without discrimination. This represents some kind of "truth?"

For years I have been supporting reform of human rights abuses against Sikhs. Does it occur to you there is a reason why I am NOT a member of RSS? Don't I, as a human being, have a right to represent what I DO believe in, and not be saddled with the hate and blame directed to a political organization I don't belong to? What kind of truth is represented by such lies and slanders?

That to me is cowardice, that it is one lady against all you "powerful" Khalsas and the best you can do is use foul language and insults and slanders. A debate, a discussion is about LEARNING the other point of view without necessarily having to agree with it. We can't even learn from each other under these conditions, let alone approach the kind of simple unity which isn't some justification of terrorist attacks and murder.

BECAUSE you propagandistically feel every Hindu or Sanatan person represents your most evil and hated enemy, all manner of abuse, including assassination is tolerated, justified and praised. One day, hopefully, you will be able to think more rationally and regret this hate-filled mindset.

Drawrof: I haven't blamed you at all.I haven't insulted you or slandered you....please show me one reference where I have. If you are just referencing my points to make a larger point..fair enough.

Quote

the guru's get questioned and insulted by bahadur/ishraqi (whatever his handle was at that time)

I don't even know anything about this person. Why am I being compared to this person? What does he have to do with me? Why can't I just be accepted as myself? Why do I have to be constantly stereotyped, lumped in with some other hated group or person?

THIS is nindya.

Show me where I did any such personal blame, smearing and slander to any one of you? Have a nice hate forum. Stop smearing and besmirching my personal character like dogs. You know nothing about me personally. You are disgrace to Guru Ji's Khalsa.

DRAWROF: AGAIN I wrote this (Page 10.Posted Today, 09:45 AM)....read it in full context and you'll understand why you are getting compared.......on that note please feel free to ask me direct questions and I will answer.

DRAWROF DISCLAIMER: I don't have time to hate people on message boards...I enjoy seeing dialogue and learning and I thank everyone from every angle for sharing. I believe what I believe and much of what is said does help shape things. As heated as this discussion has gotten it does bring perspective...

shalom! (how do we brand this one .

[HarjasDevi]

I wasn't responding only to message of Drawrof, but to posters on this entire thread and all there personal attacks and accusations.

These people have the 'right' to defend their view of sikhi..

With personal attacks, and distortions such as endless accusing of Hindutva and RSS which is a lie.

But w/e. Enjoy your hatreds (all of you, not just any particular one.) Yes keep defending with guns and bombs and killings of unarmed old men who are sanatan dera leaders. What a defense of a spiritual principle. Keep praising Sikh militancy and Khalistani radical civil war with India, it should bring blessings to many.