Hindu Sikh "unity"

[raagiwannabe]

Its no wonder we have to deal with these RSS types when we have so called sikhs like Harjas going on hindu forums promoting the idea of sikhs being hindus.

Heres my favourite post of hers from 'Hindu Dharma Forum'

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4481

Modern Tat Khalsa British monotheistic Sikhism which rejects Hindu heritage, Vedic, Puranic origins, Indian national sovereignty and allies with Pakistani Muslims is the culprit here, not original and true sanatan Sikhism of the Sikh Gurus.

Please at least, be knowledgeable of this. The Tat Khalsa extremists go around assassinating sanatan Sikh leaders routinely to repress sanatan Sikhism and Indian Nationalism and Sikh-Hindu Unity. But they are NOT representative of original and historical Sikhism by any means. Original Sikhism is HINDU! And I don't care who makes threats on me or denounces me, or rejects me for saying it.

Sikhism belongs and has always been a part of original sanatana Dharma.

And to those Hindu haters, when you cut off sect of Kshatriyas as not being representitive of YOUR sect of Vaishnava or pacifistic Hinduism, you are cutting off right arm and leaving your entire heritage without defense and vulnerable to Sikh-Muslim unity efforts by radical Pakistanis and Talibanis who want to butcher Hindus in India and so spread political message of division and disunity and Hindu hatred.

And behind all of it is the long arm of China.

Anyone up for spending a saturday afternoon with some pakistanis and chinese looking for some 'sanatan sikh' leaders to routinely assassinate?

[HSD1]

Anyone up for spending a saturday afternoon with some pakistanis and chinese looking for some 'sanatan sikh' leaders to routinely assassinate?

Where do I sign up? lol

[Mithar]

Modern Tat Khalsa British monotheistic Sikhism which rejects Hindu heritage, Vedic, Puranic origins, Indian national sovereignty and allies with Pakistani Muslims is the culprit here, not original and true sanatan Sikhism of the Sikh Gurus.

Please at least, be knowledgeable of this. The Tat Khalsa extremists go around assassinating sanatan Sikh leaders routinely to repress sanatan Sikhism and Indian Nationalism and Sikh-Hindu Unity. But they are NOT representative of original and historical Sikhism by any means. Original Sikhism is HINDU! And I don't care who makes threats on me or denounces me, or rejects me for saying it.

Sikhism belongs and has always been a part of original sanatana Dharma.

And to those Hindu haters, when you cut off sect of Kshatriyas as not being representitive of YOUR sect of Vaishnava or pacifistic Hinduism, you are cutting off right arm and leaving your entire heritage without defense and vulnerable to Sikh-Muslim unity efforts by radical Pakistanis and Talibanis who want to butcher Hindus in India and so spread political message of division and disunity and Hindu hatred.

And behind all of it is the long arm of China.

You sure this is from a Hindu forum? Sounds like something from Niddar Singh's site.

But seriously, Bhainjee, Why are you so insistant on turning Sikhs into Hindus? Seeing our opposition on all forums on the internet isn't it clear we have no desire to be Hindus neither do we see ourselves as Hindus. We are Sikhs. We respect Hinduism just as we respect all other religions such as Buddhism Islam Christianity, Jainism, but that is about it.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Mithar

[HarjasDevi]

Rajai came from Ridha, Arabic word and Muslim concept. This concept has nothing to do with word Raja (King) or Vaishnav mat. Similar is Punjabi word ਰੱਜਣਾ.

Hukam does not mean relationship between Guru and Chela. Please read Japji's second Pauri. Is Satguru talking about "charan pahul" or "prapatti or whatever" here? No!!

Writing long posts does not make you right. I made it short and was just pointing out that you are a liar.

ALLAH HOO AKBAR!! and Good Bye.

I am not a liar to give answer according to my best understanding. It is your belief that Vaishnav mat has nothing to do with what you claim as "Muslim concepts" of Hukam and Raja-ee. I differ! You are basing simple linguistics as radical difference. This is too simplistic.

Do you think the God is not present throughout the whole world?

And if the God is present throughout the whole world, than every religion has some degree of knowledge of the God.

And if this is so, why would there be no relationship between one thing and another? Isn't the whole of Gurbani asserting the opposite? That Vaishnavism and Islam can find a path of unity? Isn't that the very meaning of SIkh Gurbani? That it isn't religious ritualism, but authentic and sincere spirituality by which the God is found? And did not the Guru Sahibaan include bani of spiritual Masters regardless of their tradition, either Vaishnav or Sufi?

So if you are calling as utterly unrelated the Vaishnavs, why is there bani in Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

The word "hukam" relates to the Guru-chela relationship because GURBANI teaches that the Guru-Chela relationship is necessary to reach the God. And when Sikhs take Hukam, they are taking Hukam from the Guru. If a Sikh is not a chela of the Guru, he cannot receive the Hukam of God because only the Guru can bring God to the chela, according to SIKH and also Vaishnav Mat.

Where does a Sikh take Hukamnama? From the sky? Or from his Guru, Guru Granth Sahib?

Hukam does not mean relationship between Guru and Chela. Please read Japji's second Pauri. Is Satguru talking about "charan pahul" or "prapatti or whatever" here? No!!

The question was asked how the terms "Hukam" and "Raja-ee" relate to Vaishnav Mat. I gave the answer by relationship of Vaishnav teaching of the surrender to Guru-Chela relationship. And then I showed Gurbani where this is also Sikh teaching. THAT is the relationship. Because Sikh does takes Hukam from GURU Sahib's bani, and surrender's his head, his mind/mann to Guru Sahib, so that his life becomes a sacrifice to the true Guru which is the Shabd jyoth expressed in the very words of Guru's bani which resonate from a vibration beyond the physical forms of either the words or the bodies of the Guru's physical forms. The Shabd and Jyoth emanate from the Primal sound current which comes from the nirguna.

A Sikh does not take Hukam from the nirguna. No one can hear or perceive the nirguna. That's why it's necessary to have a Sat Guru. A Sikh takes visible words of Guruji's Shabad for Hukamnama. Just as a Sikh does "prapatti" throws himself under the Guru's feet/charan every time he does namaskar in Guru Granth Sahib's Divine Presence.

Guru Sahib does talk about charan pahul in many places, you can't pick apart Guru Granth Sahib like that. ENTIRE Gurbani is the hukam for a Sikh.

[HarjasDevi]

Anyone up for spending a saturday afternoon with some pakistanis and chinese looking for some 'sanatan sikh' leaders to routinely assassinate?

Where do I sign up? lol

Well at least we can clearly see where you all are coming from.

[HarjasDevi]

You sure this is from a Hindu forum? Sounds like something from Niddar Singh's site.

But seriously, Bhainjee, Why are you so insistant on turning Sikhs into Hindus? Seeing our opposition on all forums on the internet isn't it clear we have no desire to be Hindus neither do we see ourselves as Hindus. We are Sikhs. We respect Hinduism just as we respect all other religions such as Buddhism Islam Christianity, Jainism, but that is about it.

I have no association with Niddar Singh. Never have I met him. Never have I spoken to any of his group. Neither do I represent his views.

I am not insistent about anything. I simply came here, read some inflammatory propaganda, and decided to share my views.

Hindus and Sikhs are far more related than perhaps you realize. But a closed minded person can never change his understanding. Sikhs are NOT respecting Hinduism at all, because Punjab and Sikhi are being infiltrated by Islamic fundamentalist whose aim is to alienate Sikhs from the Dharmic heritage of purataan Gursikhi in order to cause civil war and political mischief in India. This is the force behind the Dal Khalsa morcha to intimidate and even support assassination squads from Babbar Khalsa and Khalistan Zindabad Force, all clearly represented in posters during their march in April. And of course, terrorist groups stationed in Pakistan and collaborating with Lasker e Taiba and Mujihadeeni groups working for military overthrow of the Indian state.

So why wouldn't it be a concern that the very Dharma which the Guru Sahibaan fought and died to defend is now being trampled by people calling themselves as "Sikhs?"

Just look at your own Gurbani and your own heritage. You cannot blot out your Hindustani heritage nor overthrow the precious Sanatana Dharma just like that. If you wanted to at least show real respect, would I even be posting here now? Because you show respect? Or because you are trashing? Why did I post? It was to protest all of your anti-Hindu hatred expressed here calling Sikh-Hindu Unity as "Anti-Sikh Propaganda.

[HarjasDevi]

Its no wonder we have to deal with these RSS types when we have so called sikhs like Harjas going on hindu forums promoting the idea of sikhs being hindus.

Heres my favourite post of hers from 'Hindu Dharma Forum'

http://www.hindudhar...read.php?t=4481

I am not a member of the RSS.

[HarjasDevi]

There are plenty of old Nihang Singhs who have been around since before the SGPC Rehat came into existance. You can check with them. THE SGPC Rehat is not accepted by any of the puratan samapardas. It is illogical to think that they would have been influenced by it. Of course there are some common points, why wouldn't there be?

Neither is Nihang Panth a political unity, and yes Nihang Panth as well as even Nirmala Panth have been influenced by politics of Singh Sabha, absolutely. But I agree that there are some outstanding purataan Nihang Singhs still around who think SGPC is rubbish. However, the political commentary you referenced regarding an opinion statement about Deva/devti comes from the SGPC SRM, and was interpolated as a political statement pretending to represent the authority of Khalsa Sikhs.

So I am discussing a particular element, and not whether or not entire Nihang Jatha believes or agrees with something.

[HSD1]

Well at least we can clearly see where you all are coming from.

It's called sarcasm stupid.

[HarjasDevi]

Rajai came from Ridha, Arabic word and Muslim concept. This concept has nothing to do with word Raja (King) or Vaishnav mat. Similar is Punjabi word ਰੱਜਣਾ.

Raja doesn't only mean King. There are secondary and tertiary relational usages such as kingship, authority, power and dominion also being expressed depending on grammatical construct. In trying to express the relational association to Vaishnav Mat which would be underscored by submission and authority of Guru who is called in Gurbani as True King, then authority of Kingship becomes foremost. As a concept this is expressed from the phrase "Raja-pada." which has association to Guru's charan and Lordship Mastery of a Guru over his chelas much as a King over his subjects.

So the question arises does "Raja-ee" meaning the Divine Will have any relation to the sankalpa of a Satguru? Some may say no. And some may say yes. But what is indisputable is that Gurbani itself submits the shishya/sikh to Guru's Divine Will just as Gurbani places the Shishya/chela/sikh under submission to the Hukam of God's command in the sargun swaroop of Guru.

[HSD1]

Hindus and Sikhs are far more related than perhaps you realize. But a closed minded person can never change his understanding. Sikhs are NOT respecting Hinduism at all, because Punjab and Sikhi are being infiltrated by Islamic fundamentalist whose aim is to alienate Sikhs from the Dharmic heritage of purataan Gursikhi in order to cause civil war and political mischief in India. This is the force behind the Dal Khalsa morcha to intimidate and even support assassination squads from Babbar Khalsa and Khalistan Zindabad Force, all clearly represented in posters during their march in April. And of course, terrorist groups stationed in Pakistan and collaborating with Lasker e Taiba and Mujihadeeni groups working for military overthrow of the Indian state.

Do you have any proof? Or just more hindoo paranoid-hearsay-brainfarts?

So why wouldn't it be a concern that the very Dharma which the Guru Sahibaan fought and died to defend is now being trampled by people calling themselves as "Sikhs?"

Or by those ungrateful fools who were protected by sikhs and our gurus and now twist our heritage?

Just look at your own Gurbani and your own heritage. You cannot blot out your Hindustani heritage nor overthrow the precious Sanatana Dharma just like that. If you wanted to at least show real respect, would I even be posting here now? Because you show respect? Or because you are trashing? Why did I post? It was to protest all of your anti-Hindu hatred expressed here calling Sikh-Hindu Unity as "Anti-Sikh Propaganda.

Hindoostan was created in 1947. Sikhi outdates it by centuries. Sanatan dharma as you see it is a relatively new creature. This is just another example of how hindu inferiority manifests itself as paranoid psychotic dribbles by people like Harjas 'Kaur'. As you see it, Hindu-Sikh unity involves sikhs becoming hindus, sikhs fighting the chinese and pakis followed by allowing hindus to kill us in riots and drive tanks into our gurudwaras whenever they feel like it. That's not unity. It's abuse.

Oh and look how you blame Singh Sabha for adulterating our holy texts. Can you explain were you got all your quotes from then? Surely if Singh Sabha purged our literature, they would have taken those parts out of the Angs you mentioned? Oh wait, I see, you were twisting their meanings using selective quoting. I could quote the bible, war and peace or the sunday times and give skewed reflections of what was written in them. Were is your evidence that Singh Sabha actually changed any texts? It's obvious that your just upset that sikhi isnt as you want it to be.

Edited October 24, 2009 by HSD

[laalsingh]

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Edited October 25, 2009 by laalsingh

[Matheen]

No one can hear or perceive the nirguna.

Many Sants have reached the stage where they can.

[HarjasDevi]

Hindoostan was created in 1947. Sikhi outdates it by centuries. Sanatan dharma as you see it is a relatively new creature. This is just another example of how hindu inferiority manifests itself as paranoid psychotic dribbles by people like Harjas 'Kaur'.

Really?

ਖੁਰਾਸਾਨ ਖਸਮਾਨਾ ਕੀਆ ਹਿੰਦੁਸਤਾਨੁ ਡਰਾਇਆ ॥

khuraasaan khasamaanaa keeaa hindhusathaan ddaraaeiaa ||

Having attacked Khuraasaan, Baabar terrified Hindustan.

~SGGS Ji ang 360

Hindustan may "officially" have been created as a sovereign Nation in 1947. But Hindustan is an ancient land, with an ancient civilization which the Sikh Guru's were born into. It far predates Sikhi by several thousand years.

Sanatana Dharma is the religion of the Vedas. How old are they? The Vedas far predate the Abrahamic scriptures by thousands of years.

Or by those ungrateful fools who were protected by sikhs and our gurus and now twist our heritage?

You realize that the Sikh Army was very small, and only influenced area of Punjab. Most of the later annexations occured under Maharaja Ranjit Singh as collaboration with British, but British stabbed him in the back and that was the end of Sikh kingdom. Moreover, it was Hindu custom to give the first born son to be a Sikh. So how can the Sikh Army be thought of as having no relationship to Hindus when it consisted of them?

Shivaji Maharaj, ruler of Delhi conquered a far larger area than the Sikhs. This is not to diminish the glory of the Sikh Army, but realistically, the Sikhs never controlled all of India. For a brief time they were rulers of Punjab. Hindu's have been fighting off Mughal invasions for centuries, and the Sikhs were a historical part of that. But by no means were Hindus some kind of defenseless pacifists. The very martial traditions and even scriptures of the Rajputs became adopted by Guru Gobind Singh to rouse the Army of his Khalsa.

The only ones twisting Sikh heritage are the Sikhs themselves who try to erase clear Sanatana Dharma taught in Guru Granth Sahib or to claim Rajput history, heritage, surname, weapons and military victories as all their own. Even gatka and shastar vidya come from the Rajputs. The fact that Guru Gobind Singh Ji adopted all these didn't mean he created something new. What He did was raise an Army from those same Hindu pinds defending the same Hindustan against the Mughal invaders.

As you see it, Hindu-Sikh unity involves sikhs becoming hindus, sikhs fighting the chinese and pakis followed by allowing hindus to kill us in riots and drive tanks into our gurudwaras whenever they feel like it. That's not unity. It's abuse.

Hindu's as a religion didn't invade Harminder Sahib. Indira Gandhi did on the advice of her Sikh generals after the time of emergency when she abdicated democracy and established dictatorial powers for herself. In this same time frame, her son Sanjay who was married to a Sikh was talking about forced sterilizations and variety of other dictatorial abuses planned for entire populace. Not just Sikhs. So using Prime ministership of Indira Gandhi as reflective of Hindu Dharma is absurd.

Moreover, she was married to a Muslim, Feroze Khan. And Indian government felt Sikh militancy was being manipulated and armed by enemy states such as Pakistan and China and therefore a threat to internal security. Sikh-Hindu Unity is about reconciliation on the basis of spiritual principles and shared communal heritage. Why should brother fight against brother? Exactly what would Khalistan gain? Exactly what would terrorism against the Indian state or Hindu civilians gain? Indira Gandhi is long gone. Now the Sikh militants are involved in drug and arms smuggling and Pakistani jihadi militias. What exactly have they done to help Sikhs?

Were is your evidence that Singh Sabha actually changed any texts?

Do you know why Macauliffe and Dr, Peshaura Singh are resented by the Sikh community? Because they have journals and books which establish academically how Singh Sabha adulterated and distorted texts.

Why don't you do independent research. Or better yet, try to academically refute it. Below is an excerpt from a Singh Sabha viewpoint. Nevertheless it offers a window into how much sanatan ideology exists in purataan Sikh historical sources.

"The first book, Gurbilaas Patshahi 6, a refurbished version of an old book dating back to almost three hundred years, was published in June 1998 by the Dharam Parchar Committee of the S.G.P.C. and carried testimonials by a virtual Who's Who of Sikh scholars from across the world. Vedanti and Amarjit edited this new version. These two are highly regarded scholars who hold eminent positions in the community. Vedanti is now jathedar of the Akal Takht. Amarjit holds a doctoral degree in religion and is professor at Shahid Sikh Missionary College, Amritsar. Their credentials are impeccable, their integrity and devotion to Sikhism unquestioned.

The original version of this book was written in 1718 C.E. (Bikrami 1775) by an unknown author. Efforts by many historians to identify the author have failed. There is no definitive original version. A few copies exist in private libraries and in institutional archives but they contain variations in the text. In the 1998 version, the editors have tried to reconcile such differences in text and make minor corrections as needed. In addition, the editors have provided footnotes to explain the text in simpler language, but they do not claim any credit for the contents of the book. The original text is written in a language and style that is reminiscent of books written around the same time by Santokh Singh.

The book purports to recount in great detail the life of Guru Hargobind, the sixth Sikh guru, from birth to passing away, including some dubious passages on the period before his birth. While the book has some historical value, it is not a religious text. A significant part of the writing is not only inconsistent with Sikh tradition, it is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the gurus compiled in the Guru Granth, acknowledged as guru by all Sikhs. These passages are full of mythic stories that seem to have been taken right out of much discredited books of Hindu mythology, rejected by the gurus in no uncertain terms. For example, the book portrays that Guru Hargobind was not conceived and born in the same manner as all mortals, indeed all gurus, but by divine intervention of the Hindu god Vishnu. There are numerous such instances in the book, some even bordering on the pornographic, more consistent with the stories of Hindu mythology than the gospel of Guru Granth.

Considering the dearth of original material for research, over the past two centuries parts of this book were widely used by eminent scholars like Kahn Singh Nabha, Vir Singh, Karam Singh and Max Arthur Macauliffe. These scholars used sections from this book as their source of reference, without comment on its obviously illogical, inconsistent and erroneous parts.

It needs to be pointed out that in the predominantly oral historical tradition of Indian culture, hagiographic accounts almost always intermix history and mythology. This is what attracts the scholar to the pursuit of Indian history and also makes the task impossibly challenging. Such mythic-historical writing is commonly encountered in the Indian tradition. Just look at the Ramayana, the Bhagvad Gita, and the Sikh historiography in the Puratan Janam Sakhis."The SikhTimes

Now, the Guru's bani clearly did not reject Hindu mat. Hindu mat, the devas, the avatars are all in Gurbani, explained exactly as per the philosophical school of Vaishnav mat which challenged Braminism critically. So here is a Singh Sabha biased article and it STILL has to acknowledge that purataan historical sources of Gursikhi are filled with sanatan Mat. Now from the sanatan perspective, it is the Singh Sabha whose viewpoint is wrong in suppressing the sanatan mat which is clearly demonstrated to exist in the history.

Mr Jagdev Singh Talwandi, a former SGPC chief today caused a flutter in the budget session of the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee when he criticised Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti, Jathedar Akal Takht for editing controversial book — ‘gurbilas Patsahi six’ which was banned later by the SGPC. Mr Talwandi said if “our Jathedars would edit such books which contained ‘anti-Panthic’ contents then what would be the fate of the Panth?”

What was anti-Panthic about Gurbilas? Why the fact that it proved the purataan historay of Sikhs is sanataan. And for this reason it was "banned."

"Gur Bilas Patshahi 6 has regularly been recited in many Gurdwaras in the past...

On another issue of Dasam Granth(attributed to tenth Sikh master Guru Gobind Singh), Vedanti had issued an edict to stop any debate on it since a major section of Sikhs found the contents of Dasam Granth objectionable and not tenable under Sikh traditions. The Sikh hardliners have been demanding ban on Dasam Granth while the members of Sant Samaj were in favour of recognizing it. SGPC has not so far recognized the recitation of 'Dasam Granth' in Sikh shrines due to controversy over its authorship." Punjab News

When mistake was made in copping “greenish ink” or Hartaal was used to cover the mistake and then correct rendering was written over it. If the words of lines did not form part of the hymn copied, the “greenish ink” was used to obliterate them. This has been done in all old manuscripts that I have examined....

"Many scholars however, claimed originality for the Bhai Banno edition the Kari (Bitter) Bir, because it contains three passages missing from the Kartarpure manuscripts. Two of these the hymns Mira Bai and that of Sur Das are important only as textual problems; but n the section in the Ram kali Rag by the fifth Guru has ritual and theological implications as well. In it Guru Arjan describe the puberty rites conducted for Hargovind, when his head was shaved according to the old Hindu rites of chaula, or tonsure. Only the preliminary verse is given in the Kartarpur manuscript, followed by blank pages.

The solution of each question seems impossible because of thee inaccessibility of these manuscripts, especially the Kartarpur one. A basic problem is that of the owner ship and custody of the Kartarpur Granth itself. Why did the ninth Guru sanction private ownership Guru himself., and in the hands of one who tried to assassinate him?

To exemplify forgiveness, perhaps; but this precedent resulted in the district Court of Jalander few years ago giving ownership and possession to the Sodhi family of Kartarpur descending from the traitor Dhirmal !.

The effect has been set back to scientific investigation in to the actual original text of the Kartarpur Grannnth. For example, a few years ago an attempt was made to photograph every page of this Granth. A non-Sikh scholar secured special apparatus. This attempt to preserve the text in case anything happened to the original would seem reasonable and helpful, but it caused tremendous stir among Nihangs and other fanatical groups. This reaction was to the effect that “you will photograph the naked body of our Guru over our dead bodies!” so the matter was dropped." ur%20Granth.htm"]Textual Criticism of the Kartarpur Bir

"The source of Sikh Rehat Maryada - believe it or not - is Gurbilas Patshahi 6.

Gurbilas Patshahi 6, a book released under the SGPC seal, was banned in October 2000. What does a book ban mean for the Sikhs? My understanding is that a book ban should also apply to the reading, listening and implementing of what is written in the book. In other words, we as Sikhs should stop all practices based on a banned book. But this is not the case for Gurbilas Patshahi 6. The maryada at the Darbar Sahib is practiced based on the writings in this book.

Why is the maryada at the Darbar Sahib based on a book which is banned by the SGPC? Some may say that this is Sikh tradiPracticing the Wrong Maryadation, but the question is: Is this Sikh tradition or is this biparan tradition?"

What if it isn't brahminism at all, but Vaishnav sanatanism, and what if it actually is original to Gursikhi? It would explain all the sanatan footprints in Sikh history, the original sanatan Singh Sabha, and even the sanatan references all over Gurbani.

What if all the cutting, pasting, deletions, editing, banning, and denials are trying to cover-up one of the most logical truths...

Sikhism is part of Sanatana Dharma. And only because of association with the British Raj who tried to divide India using sepoys to internally fight with Hindus and Muslims to prevent Indian independence. The British Raj were the birth of the Singh Sabha movement and massive distortions of Sikhism.

“British influence on the Singh Sabha movement is undeniable, particularly in light of the preferential treatment given the Sikhs by the Raj. Correspondingly, the Singh Sabha leaders exhibited admiration and unequivocal support towards their rulers.”~D. Jacobsh

Singh Sabha adopted a pseudo-Abrahamic world-view and tried to force Sikhism into it, claiming among such absurdities as Guru's rejected Hindu Mat (show me the pauri), Sikhism is monotheistic (prove it), Sikhism doesn't believe in miracles or reincarnation or devas (really?).

Singh Sabha is just the ideology left-over from the British that Sikhism is some kind of Christian-Islam and enemy of Hinduism, and that Jats are Aryan race descended from Pathans and Greek Scythians and have no association with Dravidic India.

[HarjasDevi]

No one can hear or perceive the nirguna.

Many Sants have reached the stage where they can.

No, they hear without hearing the anehad shabd because their consciousness has merged into God and they no longer rely on the physicality of the body.

No one can hear or perceive the nirguna because it is limitless. Only when transcending their finite nature can the atma of a person become one with the Paramatma. But then, he is no longer a "person" he is One with the Divine God Himself. So a sant of this caliber is said to have God-consciousness and Brahmgyan.

ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਉਪਜੈ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸਚੁ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥

jis thae oupajai this thae binasai ghatt ghatt sach bharapoor ||

We shall merge into the One from whom we came.

The True One is pervading each and every heart.

ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਹੀ ਸਾਚੈ ਮਹਲਿ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥੨॥

aapae mael milaavehee saachai mehal hadhoor

He Himself unites us in Union with Himself;

the True Mansion of His Presence is close at hand.

~SGGS Ji ang 20

ਸਚੇ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਲਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਚੇ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥

sachae saethee ral milae sachae gun paragaas ||

They meet and merge with the True One. They become the

Radiant Manifestation of the Excellence of the True One.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੰਤੋਖੀਆ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੫॥੧੬॥

naanak naam santhokheeaa jeeo pindd prabh paas

O Nanak, they are contented with the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

They offer their bodies and souls to God.

~SGGS Ji ang 20

ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਈਐ ਸੁਰਤੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ॥

jothee joth milaaeeai surathee surath sanjog ||

When one's light merges into the Light, and one's intuitive consciousness

is joined with the Intuitive Consciousness,

ਹਿੰਸਾ ਹਉਮੈ ਗਤੁ ਗਏ ਨਾਹੀ ਸਹਸਾ ਸੋਗੁ ॥

hinsaa houmai gath geae naahee sehasaa sog ||

then one's cruel and violent instincts and egotism depart, and

skepticism and sorrow are taken away.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਮੇਲੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ॥੨॥

guramukh jis har man vasai this maelae gur sanjog ||2||

The Lord abides within the mind of the Gurmukh, who merges in

the Lord's Union, through the Guru. ||2||

~SGGS Ji ang 21

[HarjasDevi]

Hindus and Sikhs are far more related than perhaps you realize. But a closed minded person can never change his understanding. Sikhs are NOT respecting Hinduism at all, because Punjab and Sikhi are being infiltrated by Islamic fundamentalist whose aim is to alienate Sikhs from the Dharmic heritage of purataan Gursikhi in order to cause civil war and political mischief in India. This is the force behind the Dal Khalsa morcha to intimidate and even support assassination squads from Babbar Khalsa and Khalistan Zindabad Force, all clearly represented in posters during their march in April. And of course, terrorist groups stationed in Pakistan and collaborating with Lasker e Taiba and Mujihadeeni groups working for military overthrow of the Indian state.

Do you have any proof? Or just more hindoo paranoid-hearsay-brainfarts?

Khalsa March sends strong warning to pseudo-saints, astray cults and sects:

Disrespect to Guru Granth Sahib or any challenge to its Guruship

will not be tolerated

Monday April 13th, 2008

To voice their anger against activities of the pseudo cults including Nirankaris, DJJS, Sirsa Dera for undermining Sikh beliefs and the concept of Shabad Guru, members of the organization took out a ‘Khalsa March’ at Amritsar on April 13, 2009 to "expose the evil and nefarious designs" of the pseudo-saints.

The occasion was 31st anniversary of the bloody incident when 13 Sikhs led by Akand Kirtani Jatha leader Bhai Fauja Singh fell to the bullets of Nirankaris while they are protesting against latter’s blasphemous act in Amritsar on the same day. The Sikh bodies through a resolution steadfastly maintained that any disrespect to Guru Granth Sahib or any challenge to its guruship will not be tolerated and will be dealt firmly with full force.

Significantly, the Jathedar of the Akal Takht Gaini Gurbachan Singh flagged off the march. He also performed Ardas in memory of 13 Sikhs. Paying rich tributes to them, he called upon the Sikh masses to unite in their pursuit against these pseudo-saints...

Hundreds of Dal Khalsa activists were carrying placards and large size banners displaying pictures of militant leaders including Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale, Sukhdev Singh Babbar, Talwinder Singh Babbar, Wadhawa Singh Babbar and many others. The spirited gathering shouted slogans in their favour for spearheading the militant struggle against “gurudom” and to avenge the killings of 13 Sikhs against neo-Nirankaris in early 80’s. They also eulogized the role and contribution of former jathedar Akal Takht Bhai Ranjit Singh who along with Bhai Kabul Singh allegedly “killed” Nirankari chief responsible for Baisakhi massacre. Large size pictures of Sant Bhindrawale, Sukhdev Singh Babbar, Bhai Ranjit Singh beside those of 13 Sikhs were displayed on the mini-truck...

The Parade passing through various lanes and streets of the city rededicated that none but the Granth is the perpetual Guru of the Sikh people. To ensure unflinching respect for Guru Granth Sahib, the Sikh bodies including Damdami Taksal, Akand Kirtani Jatha, Khalsa Action Committee beside Dal Khalsa reiterated that it was a religious and pious duty of every Sikh to defeat the designs of all such sects and cults, which were propagating the concept of "living gurus" contrary to the fundamentals of the Sikh faith.

Striking a discordant chord, the organizers said while the Sikhs are presently engaged in a bitter struggle against the blasphemous acts of the neo-Nirankaris, DJJS led by Aushotosh, Sauda dera, they are emphatically opposed to all schismatic sects including Radhaswami and Namdhari sects as they were also underscoring the fundamentals of Sikh religion in a silent but systematic manner.

The gathering observed that the anti-Sikh network of likes of Gurmeet Ram Rahim, Aushotosh would have to be curtailed and smashed to uphold the fundamentals of Sikhism.Dal Khalsa

25 May 2009

A visiting Indian guru has died after being shot in a clash between rival religious communities at a Sikh temple in Vienna in which about 30 people were injured, police announced.

The guru, Sant Rama Nand, 56, one of two visiting the Austrian capital, died of his wounds in hospital after Sikh followers clashed with knives and at least one gun at a temple in Vienna on Sunday, a police spokesman said.

KZF claims responsibility for Vienna attack; Babbar Khalsa condemns killing

CHANDIGARH: Even as the Khalistan Zindabad Force (KZF) claimed responsibility for the Vienna incident that sparked violence in Punjab, the Babbar Khalsa International (BKI) has condemned the killing of Sant Rama Nand of the Dera Sach Khand.

According to information posted on its website, the London-based Akash Radio said the KZF has claimed responsibility for the Sunday’s attack in Vienna.

Claiming that it had received an e-mail, it said the message, written on the KZF’s letterhead, was signed by one Ranjit Singh.

The KZF is said to have claimed that the incident occurred because “these people did not heed to the warnings that they should not disrespect Guru Granth Sahibji by sitting parallel to Sri Guru Granth Sahibji; letting people bow before them in the Guru Sahib’s presence and committing various unacceptable anti-maryada (Sikh code of conduct) acts. As they continued to commit such sins, the KZF was forced to take this action.”KZF

The six men, all from Punjab or other northern Indian states, had given several names to the police, which made their identification difficult, police spokesman Michael Takacs said. All six were in custody, although one of them, believed to be the mastermind behind the attack, was still in hospital in an induced coma after a shot in the head, he added.

Two of the men - named only as S Charnjit, 24, from Uttar Pradesh, and S Hardeep, 33 - had come to Austria illegally in 2001 and 2008. The other four were seeking asylum. S Sukhwinder, 28, from Haryana, arrived in 2001, citing a family feud for fleeing India, while S Jaspal, 34, came in 2008 and requested asylum on religious grounds. S Satwinder, 28, from UP, and S Tarsum, 45, from Gujarat, made only vague asylum claims. None of the men were related or had a prior criminal record.Vienna Attackers Identified

They all have Sikh names which are not even verified as being correct names. Which of these names points to them being Chamar when the entire sangat recognized them as Amritdharis from Jat caste?

Chandigarh, Aug 11 (IANS) Radical Sikh group Dal Khalsa Tuesday demanded the Sikhs’ highest temporal body, the Akal Takht and Amritsar-based Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC) send a joint fact-finding team to Vienna to probe the May shoot-out at a gurdwara there.

“We want them to send a team to Vienna to ascertain the reasons and circumstances that led to the shootout at the gurdwara,” Dal Khalsa spokesperson Kanwarpal Singh said.

The Dal Khalsa also submitted a memorandum to the Akal Takht jathedar (highest priest) and urged him to lend a legal support for the suspects of the Vienna incident.

“All the suspects have full right to defend themselves in a court of law and the jathedar should arrange a team of lawyers from Punjab and Europe to plead their case,” added Singh.Dal Khalsa Urge Legal Representation for Shooters

Dal Khalsa demanded that Akal Takht and SGPC pay for high powered lawyers for the accused amritdharis. Imagine that. If this was an internal Chamar struggle, why would Dal Khalsa even care? Especially after their morcha threatening to attack sanatan dera babas while promoting Babbar Khalsa and KZF leaders. Yes, the plot thickens. But ridiculous excuses which blame the Chamars while justifying the murder are totally beneath the dignity of a civilized person, let alone a "Sikh."

[Matheen]

But ridiculous excuses which blame the Chamars while justifying the murder are totally beneath the dignity of a civilized person, let alone a "Sikh."

NOthing wrong with the march - fake sants are a problem in every religion and should be stopped. How do photos of the peaceful demonstration indicate a link to Pakistani or Chinese influence, which was the question you attempted to answer? Maybe think before copying and pasting pointless articles that do nothing for your cause and waste our bandwidth.

The Vienna accused are Amritdhari, but are from Chamar background. Just because you can't find it on Google doesn't mean it's not true. Their full names are known to committee members of the UK Ravidass Sabha, who also provided information to Austrian police regarding internal disputes over land and succession of their sant. Alot has been going on in this case, but it's no longer of interest to the media.

[HarjasDevi]

How do photos of the peaceful demonstration indicate a link to Pakistani or Chinese influence, which was the question you attempted to answer?

Now you are mixing apples and oranges. I linked China to Sikh militant groups because the weapons captured during operatin bluestar were of Chinese manufacture and because Sikh militant groups in Pakistan have been linked working with jihadi groups. And this "peaceful march" waving posters of Babbar Khalsa leaders is only promoting terrorist militancy and targeting sanatan Sikhs who do not conform to the Singh Sabha standard definition.

You said they had Chamar names. What are those names if the indistinguishable Sikh names printed in the media are false? And what are your sources? Dal Khalsa? You say the media has lost interest. No it hasn't. But the Viennese government is extremely silent about the case. The current media spin by Tat Khalsas is to blame the Chamars while justifying the shooting at the same time. An illogical redundancy without any proof whatsoever.

[Matheen]

Every captured Taliban vehicle has been a Toyota Hilux or LAndcruiser, of Japanese manufacture. By your logic, the Japanese are guilty of supporting the Taliban.

The guns had to be manufactured somewhere, just turns out that some were allegedly made in China. Most were WW2 Lee-Enfield rifles, made in England.

Do the puratan Taksals fit with the SGPC definitions? Sant Jarnail Singh Ji was from the Damdami Taksal. The Babbars are from a modern jatha, but even they don't fit the SGPC definitions.

Do some real research rather than regurgitating Indian propaganda and Hindutva websites.

My source for information on the Vienna case is the Ravidass Sabha, UK.

Edited October 25, 2009 by Matheen

[HarjasDevi]

China has intelligence report which was exposed saying they planned to break India into 30 different states by supporting independance movements and militancies.

[Matheen]

China has intelligence report which was exposed saying they planned to break India into 30 different states by supporting independance movements and militancies.

No, a (1) Chinese strategist recently suggested that it would be better for the region if India gave more autonomy to individual states. It was a public report and there's nothing secret about it. There was no mention of supporting militancy - it was a report outlining how to maintain peace and stability in the region, which would lead to greater trade and development. Of course some sectors of the Indian press added their own masala.

India is not really a rival to China economically speaking or in any other way - China is on a whole other level. War in the region hurts China's main goals at the moment, which are economic growth.

In any case: "The article in question appears to be an expression of individual opinion and does not accord with the officially stated position of China on bilateral relations conveyed to us on several occasions, including at the highest level, most recently by the State Councillor Dai Bingguo during the visit to India last week," he (Indian Minister)said, reacting to the analyst's views.

Edited October 25, 2009 by Matheen

[raagiwannabe]

Singho, my pent says "made in china", TUSSI BACH KE REHO!

[HSD1]

Hindustan may "officially" have been created as a sovereign Nation in 1947. But Hindustan is an ancient land, with an ancient civilization which the Sikh Guru's were born into. It far predates Sikhi by several thousand years.

Sanatana Dharma is the religion of the Vedas. How old are they? The Vedas far predate the Abrahamic scriptures by thousands of years.

Well they are not linked are they? If so, then the Khalsa Raj of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and the Freedom Movement for Khalistan were part of the same thing - the sikh nation's constant striving for sovereignty.

You realize that the Sikh Army was very small, and only influenced area of Punjab. Most of the later annexations occured under Maharaja Ranjit Singh as collaboration with British, but British stabbed him in the back and that was the end of Sikh kingdom. Moreover, it was Hindu custom to give the first born son to be a Sikh. So how can the Sikh Army be thought of as having no relationship to Hindus when it consisted of them?

The sikh army punched well above its wait. Hindu resistance was crushed for centuries. When the Mughal empire showed cracks the maharattas (the only hindus with balls at the time) moved in. The Mughals messed about with them but then made peace as they wanted to concentrate all their forces in fighting us sikhs. Obviously we were a more potent enemy than the maharattas. Also, i have to correct you on many points. Maharaja Ranjit Singh's main expansion was in afghanistan after he signed a co-operation treaty with the british. His empire was already fairly large then. As for hindu's giving first born sons into the sikh faith, that happened on a few occasions when grateful hindu women were rescued from afghan and persian raids into india.

Shivaji Maharaj, ruler of Delhi conquered a far larger area than the Sikhs. This is not to diminish the glory of the Sikh Army, but realistically, the Sikhs never controlled all of India. For a brief time they were rulers of Punjab. Hindu's have been fighting off Mughal invasions for centuries, and the Sikhs were a historical part of that. But by no means were Hindus some kind of defenseless pacifists. The very martial traditions and even scriptures of the Rajputs became adopted by Guru Gobind Singh to rouse the Army of his Khalsa.

The Khalsa frequently marched on delhi and was unopposed. The maharattas also never ruled much of india. They used their cavalry to dominate a territory, but once the enemy sent reinforcements they scurried off. Look at the history of the portuguese colonies were masses of maharattas were slaughtered for nothing trying to take a village or two off a handful of european mercenaries. Oh and there was this hilarious battle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Assaye

Dont give me this gibberish that sikhs were the cogs in a hindustani war machine back then. We stopped the invaders of the north by ourselves, so people like the maharattas could run around killing peasants and calling themselves mighty hindu warriors.

The only ones twisting Sikh heritage are the Sikhs themselves who try to erase clear Sanatana Dharma taught in Guru Granth Sahib or to claim Rajput history, heritage, surname, weapons and military victories as all their own. Even gatka and shastar vidya come from the Rajputs. The fact that Guru Gobind Singh Ji adopted all these didn't mean he created something new. What He did was raise an Army from those same Hindu pinds defending the same Hindustan against the Mughal invaders.

If hindus created all that why did the sikhs do all the fighting? What were the hindus doing for 900 years? Can you prove that Guru Gobind Singh adopted anything off the rajputs?

At this point i would request the mods to step in and stop this hindu tarnishing of our faith and heritage. If it's allowed to carry on, some unfortunate home truths may have to be said to put these people in their place.

Hindu's as a religion didn't invade Harminder Sahib. Indira Gandhi did on the advice of her Sikh generals after the time of emergency when she abdicated democracy and established dictatorial powers for herself. In this same time frame, her son Sanjay who was married to a Sikh was talking about forced sterilizations and variety of other dictatorial abuses planned for entire populace. Not just Sikhs. So using Prime ministership of Indira Gandhi as reflective of Hindu Dharma is absurd.

Moreover, she was married to a Muslim, Feroze Khan. And Indian government felt Sikh militancy was being manipulated and armed by enemy states such as Pakistan and China and therefore a threat to internal security. Sikh-Hindu Unity is about reconciliation on the basis of spiritual principles and shared communal heritage. Why should brother fight against brother? Exactly what would Khalistan gain? Exactly what would terrorism against the Indian state or Hindu civilians gain? Indira Gandhi is long gone. Now the Sikh militants are involved in drug and arms smuggling and Pakistani jihadi militias. What exactly have they done to help Sikhs?

What if sikhs dont want to be part of hindustan? Why cant we have our own country? What have hindus ever done for us? Which sikh generals insisted on attacking Harmandir Sahib? The indian army and police are still involved in the imprisonment and killing of innocent sikhs. So much for unity.

Do you know why Macauliffe and Dr, Peshaura Singh are resented by the Sikh community? Because they have journals and books which establish academically how Singh Sabha adulterated and distorted texts.

Why don't you do independent research. Or better yet, try to academically refute it. Below is an excerpt from a Singh Sabha viewpoint. Nevertheless it offers a window into how much sanatan ideology exists in purataan Sikh historical sources.

More hearsay and half truths. Seriously get a life, you remind of those muslims who think that the jews are behind every bad thing. Like do you think singh sabha bogey men are going to get you?

[HSD1]

Now, the Guru's bani clearly did not reject Hindu mat. Hindu mat, the devas, the avatars are all in Gurbani, explained exactly as per the philosophical school of Vaishnav mat which challenged Braminism critically. So here is a Singh Sabha biased article and it STILL has to acknowledge that purataan historical sources of Gursikhi are filled with sanatan Mat. Now from the sanatan perspective, it is the Singh Sabha whose viewpoint is wrong in suppressing the sanatan mat which is clearly demonstrated to exist in the history.

Actually it does. And when it does, you blame Singh Sabha for gurbani not being what you want it to be. Any actual evidence?

What was anti-Panthic about Gurbilas? Why the fact that it proved the purataan historay of Sikhs is sanataan. And for this reason it was "banned."

Did it prove it? more like this is more genuine silliness from yourself. What makes you think that you know what our Gurus intended for our religion? Just because you write ridiculously long posts shows your genuine fanaticism about hindu loving. Seriously, go get some help.

What if it isn't brahminism at all, but Vaishnav sanatanism, and what if it actually is original to Gursikhi? It would explain all the sanatan footprints in Sikh history, the original sanatan Singh Sabha, and even the sanatan references all over Gurbani.

What if all the cutting, pasting, deletions, editing, banning, and denials are trying to cover-up one of the most logical truths...

Sikhism is part of Sanatana Dharma. And only because of association with the British Raj who tried to divide India using sepoys to internally fight with Hindus and Muslims to prevent Indian independence. The British Raj were the birth of the Singh Sabha movement and massive distortions of Sikhism.

The british didnt care after beat the sikhs, as long as they held most of our religous artifacts. Muslims and hindus did incredibly well under the british. Hindustan wouldnt exist without them. Why are so many hindustanis anglo-phobic? If it wasnt for the british, most of you would be sikhs or muslims by now.

Singh Sabha adopted a pseudo-Abrahamic world-view and tried to force Sikhism into it, claiming among such absurdities as Guru's rejected Hindu Mat (show me the pauri), Sikhism is monotheistic (prove it), Sikhism doesn't believe in miracles or reincarnation or devas (really?).

Singh Sabha is just the ideology left-over from the British that Sikhism is some kind of Christian-Islam and enemy of Hinduism, and that Jats are Aryan race descended from Pathans and Greek Scythians and have no association with Dravidic India.

Oh dear. Quoting Dr jakobsh? She is a silly cow. That just shows the massive ignorance underpinning your logic. Sikhi is monotheistic. What about Guru Nanak Dev ji taking the mick out of hindus in the ganges? On many occasions he showed the stupidity of hinduism.

By the way, we jatts are the descendants of Hunnic invaders who crashed into the punjab at a later date than the races you mentioned. All this gibberish about india this hindu that is annoying. Our Gurus told us that nothing lasts forever. People like you make me eager to see the end of the last bastion of paganism and superstition in this world. The true Khalsa will return, and we will shake the neo-Mughal State (hindustan) to it's foundations.

They all have Sikh names which are not even verified as being correct names. Which of these names points to them being Chamar when the entire sangat recognized them as Amritdharis from Jat caste?

LOL!How can they tell they were jatts. It also doesnt take a genius to give an alias of a sikh name. You use sheer ignorance to prove some of your twisted views, then take massive leaps of reasoning to justify others. It would be laughable if so many people didnt buy into these conspiracy theories. Give it time and the assasins will be revealed to have received payments from the indian govt.

Dal Khalsa demanded that Akal Takht and SGPC pay for high powered lawyers for the accused amritdharis. Imagine that. If this was an internal Chamar struggle, why would Dal Khalsa even care? Especially after their morcha threatening to attack sanatan dera babas while promoting Babbar Khalsa and KZF leaders. Yes, the plot thickens. But ridiculous excuses which blame the Chamars while justifying the murder are totally beneath the dignity of a civilized person, let alone a "Sikh."

HOW DOES THIS PROVE ANY LINK BETWEEN SIKHS/PAKIS/CHINESE AS I ORIGINALLY ASKED FOR PROOF OF?

I find people like you very annoying. You answer certain points by giving answers to questions i didnt ask. Other points you ignore in order to spew your propaganda. On Sikhnet the mods are very good at picking up on this. I hope the admin on here take note.

I linked China to Sikh militant groups because the weapons captured during operatin bluestar were of Chinese manufacture and because Sikh militant groups in Pakistan have been linked working with jihadi groups.

http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=91741

You can also see indian troops using chinese weapons on youtube. America gives loads of equipment to pakistan, some of which ended up in khalistani hands. Are they supporting the dissolving of india too?

On another note, why should we care if china attacks india? Chinese ambassadors have visited Harmandir Sahib on many occasions (and not using commandoes or tanks!) Surely hindustan has plenty of hindus who can fight them off? Why dont they be like that maratha twat you mentioned earlier? Waheguru says nothing lasts forever. That includes hindustan. I therefore welcome our soon to be chinese overlords. Cant be much worse than hindus. I prefer noodles to cow piss as well.

[chatanga1]

Sikhs are NOT respecting Hinduism at all, because Punjab and Sikhi are being infiltrated by Islamic fundamentalist whose aim is to alienate Sikhs from the Dharmic heritage of purataan Gursikhi in order to cause civil war and political mischief in India.

havent the indians taken done the same in afghanistan ? why are they suporting civil war and causing mischief in that country?

why did the holy sanatan people cause civil war in Sikh raaj enabling the brits to take over?

So why wouldn't it be a concern that the very Dharma which the Guru Sahibaan fought and died to defend is now being trampled by people calling themselves as "Sikhs?"

did Guru Ji ever fight battles against any hindus?

You cannot blot out your Hindustani heritage nor overthrow the precious Sanatana Dharma just like that.

we dont want to throw it out. we just want to keep it i the perspective thatGurbani does.

Edited October 25, 2009 by chatanga1