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Can Women Be In The Panj Pyare


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Only five you said:

You think these small exceptions are faults or wrong. I clearly don't. Loads of sants, even akaal takth jathedars or takth sahib jathedars who travel abroad don't either that includes sant ranjit singh who at first attempt did try to come abroad in his own jet but later made an exception to taking kirpan off.

I am going to end this discussion this and ask you personal question- have you travel via air before? if yes, you yourself guilty doing one wrong and faulty of this. If thats a case, who are you to shove guilt trips on people who think there can be bibi in the panj pyares and play maryada game card whenever it suits your agenda? For me as i said, small exceptions are okay, because we don't christian or muslim view of god, as vahiguroo in sikhi is personally not the one who gives wrath to other people because small exceptions are made in daily life, but it must be hell knowing what you going through? one who preaches one of part of maryada is making an exception to another part of maryada.

Putting, bibi in for Punj Pyare is not a small exception. This is altering the Amrit Sanskar, it can't be compared to taking a Kirpan off. Personally I wouldn't take Amrit from women.

There is a good reason for taking the Kirpan off for a few hours. Removing kirpan, shaving hair, are on a personal level and that Sikhs is not making a decision out of pride or stubborness. When you talk about woman being in Punj Pyare then you are talking about a bigger issue that invovles the whole Panth and the altering the foundation of Amrit Sanskar. You cannot compare the two and say they are the same(small exceptions). The Punj Pyare represent Sri Guru Gobind SIngh Sahib ji and not just some Maryada, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji took the form as man and then later distuigished man and female, then how can you place a woman in the place of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji, when he didn't do it himself?

I can flip the personal question around on you and then add at the end how can you send a person down a guilt trip when you don't keep Maryada yourself and ready to follow yourself instead of Sri Guru Gobind SIngh Sahib ji. Let me go further how can you run a Sikh Awareness site when you go against Sri Guru GObind SIngh Sahib ji. So let's keep this personal stuff out because it really doesn't take us anywhere and doesn't prove anything either way. I hope you don't take this personally.

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We both have put our point across so let the readers decide for themselves. I apologize if i have used strong words or came out personal at times while discussing this topic.

I'm all for it, but one last word. :D

You stated before that the limit stops at kurahits in Maryada, since the Kurahits come after the Amrit Sanskar that would make the prescribed order and who gives Amrit even a bigger kurahit if changed and not followed.

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Not read all of the replies on this thread but thought I would add one last thought.

First amrit sanchaar was performed 1699, Guru Ji ascended to satch khand in 1708 - that is a period of 9 years.

In all those nine years Guru Ji will have performed amrit sanchaar many many times, at the time there were many spiritually high bibi's, like Mata Bhago for instance, BUT Guru Ji never once had a bibi in the panj piyaray.

Guru Ji had ample time to incorporate a bibi in the panj but never did, this is very significant.

If this was a minor thing to swop and change things round, Guru Ji would have done it himself, but Guru Ji never did

else we would have definately have heared of it.

I think we should not think of this as a slight towards women, it is not. Genders have differing roles that is all.

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The one female Bhramgyani I know told me that only Singhs should do 5 Pyare seva.

I second what the above poster mentioned about personal rahit being very different from panthic rahit. We can keep as much or little (to a point) of personal rahit as we like. Panthic rahit we don't have the right to alter.

The issues you have mentioned N3O are not exceptions to rahit. Having hair shaved during delivery is wrong and totally not required, this is the manmat of nigura doctors who have no respect who promote this.

As for removing kirpan during air travel - Guru ji never gave us a minimum kirpan length so it's ok to do ardass, wear a small kirpan around the neck for a brief period. Sant Jagjit Singh ji told me that Guru ji knew the panth would go through hard times and that this kind of thing is ok. Also, I believe the Akaal Takht also gave the ok for this.

Kirpan accidentally touching arse ?? - weird example, but no, beadbi like this is not allowed. If it happens it's not a big deal, just do ardass for maafi.

Mistakes happen, Guru ji is our father, we can just do ardass for maafi and it's ok. He'll forgive us. This doesn't mean that we can just leave maryada behind when it suits us.

These examples don't seem to stand up to scrutiny.

And one further point, Gyani Thakur Singh ji in katha said that Amrit Sanchar form punj with a Singhni in it is invalid.

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I'm inclined to believe there was wisdom in the purataan maryada. Khalsa initiation is conducted with bir ras and the energies of women are different. Women are equal, but different, and you just can't ignore that fact. Yes, women can become fighters when pushed but it is not natural inclination of a woman who tends to be softer and more nurturing. LAST THING an initiated warrior needs is maternal energies.

So I think there is wisdom in the original Panj being all male and this having nothing to do with discrimination or even archaic rules of outdated maryada, but actual point of spiritual balance in initiating warriors. On the other hand, nothing is to stop female mahapurash from giving initiations for NAAM abhiyaas or some spiritual teaching, but it just doesn't make sense from the warrior point of view.

Traditionally in Hindu Mat Guru's are nearly always males. Only in the Tantric Shakta tradition are there female Gurus who are able to give initiations. Even if we analyze from the extreme view that certain writings of Dasam Pita Ji reflect Shakta ideology. Then it really says something that all original panj were males. So it would be foolish to go against that wisdom. That EVEN IF Guru Ji were believing in some form of Shaktism, that He would establish ALL MALE Panj Piare to be mode of transmission of spiritual energies. So I don't think the argument for female Panj Piare has any precedent or validity.

It's not an equality or respect or discrimination issue. The body does count for something, it is a vehicle of particular vibrations and energies. Also an injured person who does not have the complete physical form, what is he transmitting through that form? You see, everything that a victorious warrior does NOT want transmitted, and that is mutilation or injury. So these things from an energetic spiritual point of view are very legitimate. I think Guru Ji knew exactly what He was doing, and we shouldn't impose or make any changes.

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Harjas kaur, this topic has nothing to do with discrimination or equality.

I think main argument here - is parampara of sanaskar amrit sanchar coming from centuries which is panj pyares being male can be compromised in rare cases or even for the sake of argument - khalsa is above gender thinking - 3HO Goraie and goraie singhanis have.?

Some people said there can be no exceptions period.

Some have shared the mahapursh views that amrit becomes invalid with bibi in the panj pyares seva same view some of nihangs mahapursh have held that amrit is invalid without- sri dasam granth sahib parkash. So where you stop?

I am in favor of later view. I am *NOT* totally against the idea of panj pyares having all male.

I totally agree for the sake of maintaining the parampara of amrit sanchar- panj pyares should be male but i give this issue to the same importance as that every amrit sanchar there should be sarbloh batta where panj pyares are giving amrit.

I don't totally agree with approach of amrit being invalid. As amrit is internal, and we are talking about sanaskar amrit.

Lets first of all agree on something we can all agree on. Everyone here can agree on all panj pyares in 1699 were all bhramgyanis and bhramgyan is above gender. It is different they all happen to be males as such in social circle, naturally just to keep up this parampara all future amrit sanchars- panj pyares were male.

Once we scratch the surface on this issue more carefully, 3ho jatha had female panj pyares and many female bhramgyanis from nirmal mandali including above mahapursh from rara sahib branch of hapur gave naam and naam jugti. Also when it comes to naam amrit goes, there are many cases were female bhramgyanis have given naam and naam jugti in form of panj payres.

Mahapursh who had two different view than them, interacted with them with no issues and consider them khalsa sikhs. I consider this is an small modification based on understanding and need, its same level of same small modification from same amrit sanchar in 1699 when all panj pyares were bhramgyanis but they are not now based on understanding and need.

Xylitol, mentioned there is difference between personal rehit and panthic rehit which gives an good reality check on my little outburst i had in my previous post. so i retract from those examples. But i have provided real panthic rehit examples which are quite significant for some depending who you talk to, question is where you draw the line:

- Tapoban singhs believe without sarbloh batta, amrit sanchar is invalid.

- Many nihang singhs beleive without parkash of sri dasam granth, amrit sanchar is invalid.

- Taksali view of gyani thakur singh ji, with female in panj pyares, amrit sanchar is invalid.

- Many believe, if woman who is gursikh does not put patsah in the batta physically that amrit sanchar is invalid.

I could come along with same logic and say- this amrit sanchar is invalid ( I won't in real life) because one of panj pyares who are administering amrit is not bhramgyani for the sake of keeping orginality because i don't feel energy from them.

I feel my argument would have strong base. I am not just talking about maryada of amrit here, but talking about whole essence of amrit.

We can go circles with this and argue my jatha mahaprush is true than yours all the day in this topic and still cannot move on. We can only move on when we study maryada or paramapra from grey area an exception of kurahit (off course).

From panthic maryada context, if panth have decided to modify integral part of amrit which is loosen the rules of avastha who can administer amrit in over time - in other words, panj pyares does not have to bhramgyani like it was back in 1699. Then whats the problem modification that 3ho jatha have done- included bibi in the panj pyares?? This is just not two wrong does not make it right scenario. Decision of who can administer amrit is extremely important and it was monumental decision where all jathas based on understanding and need.

If this huge modification - avastha of panj pyares- bhramgyan can be loosen to rehitvan singhs is justified based on understanding and need in the panth then why not modification of having female in panj pyares in amrit sanchar for the sake of same reasons- understanding and need.

I will end my ranting with below scenario - One wanted to take amrit, goes to amrit sanchar where panj pyares were males, he/she feels energy of bhramgyan from four of five pyares who are males. He/she sees an gursikh bibi nearby, where same energy of bhramgyan they are able to feel from gursikh who is happen to bibi.

what you do?

a) For the sake of keeping orginal maryada of amrit sanchar where panj pyares should be males, just take the amrit from panj pyares who were males?

b ) For the sake of keeping original integral part of maryada of same amrit sanchar where panj pyares were all bhramgyanis regardless of gender, have no second thought take a advantage of golden chance and take amrit from panj pyares who are all bhramgyanis regardless of gender?

I would with eyes closed go for 2nd option because thats very foundation of amrit sanchar.

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this topic has nothing to do with discrimination or equality

I agree. But many people believe it is and is a frequent point in such discussions.

Some have shared the mahapursh views that amrit becomes invalid with bibi in the panj pyares seva same view some of nihangs mahapursh have held that amrit is invalid without- sri dasam granth sahib parkash. So where you stop?

I don't think amrit becomes invalid, I think it will have a different energetic effect. Just as a particular scenario was designed to bring about a particular effect. If amrit sinchar was done with great piare and high avestha Singhnia and all bibiaan, it would probably not be invalid. But can you imagine the results energetically? Of course it has an affect on the person. Is there a transmission occuring? Yes! The transmission is occurring through the bani. But energetically, the Panj Piare are putting their imprint into the transmission as well. This is why the spiritual jeevan of the Panj is so important. Even if all 5 Singhs were paapis and fraudsters, if they recited the BANI (which is the True power of amrit sinchaar) correctly and with sincerity, it would be a valid amrit. BUT, again, imagine the energetic effect? It would be like being in the delivery room and the person to catch the baby did so with unwashed hands. It exposes the spiritual jeevan of the recipient to unwanted contaminations right off the bat.

Suppose one of the panj was outwardly very holy. But secretly was a smoker. Would the amrit sinchaar be valid? Again, the transmission occurs through the power of BANI. HOWEVER, the energetic imprint of the persons who perform the amrit sinchaar by acting in the place of Guru Sahib are also critical and have an effect on the recipient which will be long-lasting. You may never know the secret paaps or disqualifications of someone who acted as panj. But it doesn't change the effect. The TRANSMISSION COMES THROUGH THE BANI. This is why amrit is amrit regardless sampraday who perform it. But if persons performing it had hidden disqualifications of their person, then there is something else added energetically. It doesn't disqualify the amrit because only changes in the bani would have this effect.

Now as to the question of banis used, I would say there is a particular reason for particular banis and if this has changed since purataan times, it would explain some problems we see in the modern Panth. However, as long as panj banis are recited, the amrit sinchaar would still be valid. I don't know about inclusion of bani of Tenth Master, but if it were a new innovation it would probably be unwise. If it can be supported as historically being done, then it is foundational and never should have be excluded. As there is no question Shri Dasam Granth is warrior based and the energy from this bani would be energetically very high shakti.

Everyone here can agree on all panj pyares in 1699 were all bhramgyanis and bhramgyan is above gender.

Bramgyaan is a quality which is above gender because the kutashtha chaitanya is present in all. But brahmgyaan is not a requirement for serving as the Panj. And brahmgyaan is not the requested result from the panj. What is required and what is requested is willingness to be a physical sacrifice. Now, without doubt many many bibiaan have sacrificed and will sacrifice in future willingly and cheerfully. But the energetic imprint is still present also based on gender. Because in this duality world, we are divided along gender lines. The kutashtha chaitanya is without gender but the body is not. Males simply have more bir ras than females by nature, instinctively. And there is an energetic imprint receiving from men as opposed to receiving from women.

Now if it were not for this warrior factor, then I would not personally see any problem with this initiation involving high avestha bibiaan. But it is a very particular initiation intended to bring about a very particular effect. One needs to consider also why all the Guru Sahiban were males. The panj are representing physically, as energy transmitters, the spiritual JYOT of Guru Sahib IN THE BANI.

Spiritual Jyot has no gender! HOWEVER, it is the transmission of the Shabad-Jyot which is affected by the physical instrument of the Panj. The energies they add to it will have an influence spiritually over the recipient that may need to be purified. If a person with high avestha receives the amrit under less than ideal conditions, the amrit is valid, but the person may feel something less, or weakening. But by performance of spiritual sadhana of keeping rehit and sayig daily nitenam banis, the person will grow spiritually anyway. But a person with personal weaknesses is going to feel more stronger any particular weaknesses as a result and it may affect them in hidden ways. Again, BANI is medicine, it is the cure and the solution for everything. So, amrit sinchaar is the starting point, but the survival of spiritual jeevan is the reciting BANI with heart and mind and full attention. This will purify the recipient of any negative, or unwanted spiritual energies resulting from having an imperfect panj, because let's face it, people aren't perfect. But the BANI itself is also ENERGY PRESENCE of LIVING MASTER. The closer you come to staying in the presence of that energy, the better your spiritual jeevan will be. And this is why people are sent home with comitment to keep nitenam, and not to hang around the people who acting as the Panj Piare. So it is a rectifiable situation if amrit was received from less than perfect Panj, because I think it would be most unusual case where all 5 were perfected beings who could competently give a perfect energy transmission, lol.

But ideally people shouldn't shoot for things outside the original maryada as there was deliberation and intent in it.

Mahapursh who had two different view than them, interacted with them with no issues and consider them khalsa sikhs.

I would never contradict any mahapurash from any sampraday as I am not one. I am only giving reasons for my opinion.

3ho jatha had female panj pyares and many female bhramgyanis from nirmal mandali including above mahapursh from rara sahib branch of hapur gave naam and naam jugti. Also when it comes to naam amrit goes, there are many cases were female bhramgyanis have given naam and naam jugti in form of panj payres.

NAAM is different, it is not the transmission of warrior qualities initiating into Fauj. Again, brahmgyaanis don't grow on trees and I highly doubt that in average amrit sinchaar there is even a brahmgyaani withon a thousand miles, lol. So yes, quite apart from AKJ beliefs on the subject that NAAM should only be imparted by the PANJ, perhaps the Nirmalay are on to something where they will travel a great distance to receive NAAM and NAAM jugti from a known sampraday brahmgyaan.

where you draw the line:

- Tapoban singhs believe without sarbloh batta, amrit sanchar is invalid.

- Many nihang singhs beleive without parkash of sri dasam granth, amrit sanchar is invalid.

- Taksali view of gyani thakur singh ji, with female in panj pyares, amrit sanchar is invalid.

- Many believe, if woman who is gursikh does not put patsah in the batta physically that amrit sanchar is invalid.

I don't believe the amrit becomes "invalid" provided that the BANIS are being recited correctly and with concentration and intent. As THAT is the transmission. However, these things are not just superficial and will have a profound and lasting effect on the quality of that transmission.

Without a Sarbloh batta? I think energetically this is even more crucial than having an all-male Panj. How can you be accepting amrit in dedicated service to the ALL-STEEL when you don't have sarbloh batta to transmit that shakti? I would consider this amrit to be spiritually weak and potentially ineffective far and beyond the question of bibiaan in the Panj. That person who received such amrit, I would recommend he speak to mahapurash in his own sampraday whether or ot amrit should be retaken. And only in this special instance, because SARBLOH is the physical PRESENCE of the ALL-STEEL/IRON GOD WHO IS SATINAAM (sarguna). So definitely, something is critically lacking in the energy trasmission without it.

Sarbloh is a conductor of energy and it holds an electro-magnetic charge. If you don't have a sarbloh batta, then you aren't holding the shakti of the recited BANI in the amrit water. And you aren't transmitting it to the recipient. MOREOVER, Panj are rubbing the Khanda against the sides of the batta putting the metal rust mixing into the amrit. So a person drinking amrit from sarbloh batta are drinking in the SARBLOH STEEL as well as the sweet water as well as the energy of the BANI.

ਸਚ ਕੀ ਕਾਤੀ ਸਚੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਾਰੁ ॥

sach kee kaathee sach sabh saar ||

The knife is Truth, and its steel is totally True.

~SGGS Ji ang 956

ਅਸੰਖ ਸੂਰ ਮੁਹ ਭਖ ਸਾਰ ॥

Asaʼnkẖ sūr muh bẖakẖ sār.

Countless heroic spiritual warriors, who with their mouths eat steel.

~SGGS Ji ang 4

If this huge modification - avastha of panj pyares- bhramgyan can be loosen to rehitvan singhs is justified based on understanding and need in the panth then why not modification of having female in panj pyares in amrit sanchar for the sake of same reasons- understanding and need.

As pointed out above, some modifications will alter the energy vibration and have hidden effect on the recipients, but too many modifications and people will with best intentions, unknowingly create conditions which can and will invalidate the amrit sinchaar.

You don't need a brahmgyaani for amrit initiation or we must then admit that 99.9% of all amrit sinchaars are invalid, lol. You do need a rehitjeevan Singh because he will be a clean instrument to pass the spiritual energy vibration of the BANI who lives his life japping BANI. You need a sarbloh baata or you may not even have an energy transmission of that BANI even if you want to real bad, lol. It is better to have a male than a female to transmit bir ras when initiating into Khalsa Fauj. As far as receiving NAAM and jugti of it from bibiaan, if that person is a high avestha rehitjeevan bibia there would be no issue with the transmission of NAAM. If the person is a rare sant and brahmgyaani, even better blessing.

If we just accept modifications for the sake of understanding, then why is everybody bent out of shape over Baba Ram Rahim and his innovative Sat Sitare and Inshaan Amrit pink drink? We have no right to change amrit sinchaar based on our own understanding or we are doing what Ram Rahim did, and that is to act as if we are the Guru ourselves. And THAT is mahapaap. Innovations are not a good thing. They are based on our own interpretation. And they have the effect of weakening or even nullifying an actual energy transmission critical for initiation. BECAUSE SIKHI doesn't have a living, physical dedhari Guru to transmit the energy imprint of the GURU and HIS SANKALPA, there is NO ROOM FOR ERROR IN THE ACCEPTED MARYADA OF TRANSMISSION.

It is not about justifications based on understanding, reason or fairness. It is about energy transmission, factors that weaken it or provide unwanted influences, or actually sever it. You sever the energy transmission and you don't have an initiation. No one can afford innovations which might interfere with initiation process or the Singhs of today cannot possibly become the Singhs of 1699.

what you do?

You keep as closely as possible to the original as faithfully as you can. Some error or changes perhaps can't be helped, but you avoid innovation at all costs.

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Topic Title---> Can Women Be In The Panj Pyare

Why should I stay away? It's a discussion forum. I happen to believe Panj Piare is valid. I didn't "reject" Panj Piare. I did have an experience and pulled me in another direction than Khalsa Sikhi. But that was just me, I doubt out of a thousand people you would find another who goes through that same thing. You can't convert to it. You can't convert against it. I have never rejected the validity of Panj Piare or the necessity of Khande Ki Pahul for initiation into Sikhi.

I did accept another Guru. That makes me no longer a Khalsa Sikh. It does not mean I have an invalid opinion on the subject. If you think only Khalsa Sikhs should be allowed to participate in these discussions then you need to make a rule making that expressly clear: Only certain kind of persons are invited to express or share an opinion. I did not see that disqualifier before I posted and certainly N30 S!NGH hasn't said anything like that.

Laalsingh needs to make a new forum rule: No non-sikhs who do not conform to our version of Sikhism can post, and then ban the people. Then you may calmly read only your own narrow opinions reflected in people of like mind. God forbid you should actually be allowed to see other points of view. I don't recommend people should run out and find a dedhari Guru. Even if people went to see the Hindu Guru who I went to see, I doubt they would have the same experience. It's not about conversion to or from anything. The people who are drawn there will be drawn. The people who need to go will go. The people drawn to Khalsa Sikhism will also continue to be drawn. Have calmness, the life is going to unfold as it should. No one can take anything away from you which is in the core of your being. There are things moving in the lives of people we can neither see nor control. It is God's own lila.

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Harjas kaur, this topic has nothing to do with discrimination or equality.

I think main argument here - is parampara of sanaskar amrit sanchar coming from centuries which is panj pyares being male can be compromised in rare cases or even for the sake of argument - khalsa is above gender thinking - 3HO Goraie and goraie singhanis have.?

The 3HO did not do it out of no Singhs being around, but out of egotisical behaviour. They thought that by them putting in Kaurs they will break a ritual the Khalsa Panth has created with only Singhs. They failed to see the reason why only Singhs are allowed.

Lets first of all agree on something we can all agree on. Everyone here can agree on all panj pyares in 1699 were all bhramgyanis and bhramgyan is above gender. It is different they all happen to be males as such in social circle, naturally just to keep up this parampara all future amrit sanchars- panj pyares were male.

Above you say Khalsa is above gender thinking, then why did Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji(the master of Khalsa) give us two separate last names? Why not just one last name? If it was just about getting rid of caste.

Xylitol, mentioned there is difference between personal rehit and panthic rehit which gives an good reality check on my little outburst i had in my previous post. so i retract from those examples. But i have provided real panthic rehit examples which are quite significant for some depending who you talk to, question is where you draw the line:

- Tapoban singhs believe without sarbloh batta, amrit sanchar is invalid.

- Many nihang singhs beleive without parkash of sri dasam granth, amrit sanchar is invalid.

- Taksali view of gyani thakur singh ji, with female in panj pyares, amrit sanchar is invalid.

- Many believe, if woman who is gursikh does not put patsah in the batta physically that amrit sanchar is invalid.

I could come along with same logic and say- this amrit sanchar is invalid ( I won't in real life) because one of panj pyares who are administering amrit is not bhramgyani for the sake of keeping orginality because i don't feel energy from them.

That's correct many Jatha say many things, but at the end of the day its about what did Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji prescribe us to do. You need Sarbloh batta, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, no woman as Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji did, and then patsah, did a Kaur always put in patsah after the first Amrit Sanskar or did one of the Punj Pyare do it with Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji's instructions as many Amrit Sanskars were done after the first one?

I go to repeat, two wrongs, don't make a right. If somone loosens up the Maryada, do we all follow those guys. The answer lies in the amount of Jathas that have their own Maryada, who have rejected the loosing. Also a Bhramgyani(Sant Jarnail SIngh Ji Khalsa) said no Kaurs in Punj, this reflects on your bhramgyani point showing a bhramgyani is against it and I wonder if Sant ji said anything about only bhramgyani giving Khande Batta da Amrit.

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Also a Bhramgyani(Sant Jarnail SIngh Ji Khalsa) said no Kaurs in Punj, this reflects on your bhramgyani point showing a bhramgyani is against it and I wonder if Sant ji said anything about only bhramgyani giving Khande Batta da Amrit.

You can wonder all day long mate about sant ji thought or did. It does *NOT* change the fact of all panj pyares were bhramgyanis in 1699 who gave their heads. Ultimately from guru through panj pyares many seena basina samparda's are still alive and kicking today does not give these things too much emphasis as they concentrate more on mysticism of sikhism than nitty gritty details in maryada. There are other bhramgyanis in the panth from other samparda's have difference of opinions in maryada (as i pointed out earlier nirmal mandali had female bhramgyanis giving naam and naam jugti- one is of female sant from hapur of rara sahib), this difference of opinions is totally understandable, thats the way it should be, that shows diversity not division in panth depending how you look at it.

I will end my rant again with this glowing pictures of sant jarnail singh khalsa bhindranwale with sri singh sahib harbhajan singh yogi sitting and standing with mutual respect towards each other despite of differences which are discussing in the topic. If it was up to some, probably had flame wars between chelas from both sides even before meeting.

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http://uploads.sikhsangat.com/monthly_11_2007/post-294-1195054472.jpg

http://uploads.sikhsangat.com/monthly_11_2007/post-294-1194966500.jpg

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- Many believe, if woman who is gursikh does not put patsah in the batta physically that amrit sanchar is invalid.

I could come along with same logic and say- this amrit sanchar is invalid ( I won't in real life) because one of panj pyares who are administering amrit is not bhramgyani for the sake of keeping orginality because i don't feel energy from them.

These two "rules" are made up. They are not required for Amrit Sanchaar, and they never were.

No female bhramgani I have heard of has ever stated that one of the punj can be female. Giving of naam jugti is a completely different thing, can't be compared to Khande Batte da Amrit.

Maryada must be maintained. Some little mistakes can be ok, but there is a huge difference between mistakes and hankaar of thinking that we know better than Guru ji.

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Singh this is mentioned on this forum by niddar singh crew. I was responding to xylitol query, I know you can't rely on niddar crew at times, but i also confirmed it with nihang gurmant singh. I never mentioned - sri dasam granth sahib must parkash in budda dal amrit sanchar(otherwise invalid) is written somewhere in the buddha dal amrit sanchar maryada booklet but some nihangs have that notion just like how gyani thakur singh ji feels having an female in panj pyares nullifies whole amrit sanchar despite of this is not mentioned in taksali amrit sanchar maryada booklet.

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Just to further complicate things, I will add my 2 rupaiye worth.

1 - It's nonsense to be confusing/comparing/talking about Naam Jugti from solo Brahmgynai (male or female) and Khande Batte da Amrit. They are 2 different things serving 2 specific purposes, although the 2nd may contain element/completeness of 1st (dependant on opinion) the 1st does not replace the 2nd.

2 - Singh Khalsa Amrit (Khande Da) is for Soor-Bir Asli Chhatri Khalsa Panth.

Let's look at some of the facts (again according to history, you may accept it or not, but is recorded and a known version).

1 - Were Panj Pyare Brahmgyanis when they were unknown and offered their head, or were they Soor-Bir followers of the Guru, who responded to Gurus ferocious call, asking for a head with a sword dripping of blood (Pyare 2 to 5 in anycase). This does not detract the fact that they became Brahmgyani after accepting amrit from Guru (instantly or after spending time with their Master learning from him direct).

2 - According to Bhai Svarup Singh Kaushish, Panj were taken into tambu and asked to chatka a bakra.

3 - Panj are adorned with Shastar.

4 - Panj were asked to sit in 'bir aasan' (Warrior Sitting Pose) when preparing amrit. Those of those who have tried, know how difficult this posture is to keep, it's not names as such for no reason.

5 - Guru Ji recites couplets from Shastar Naam Mala once Panj have prepared amrit.

We also have reference in Panthic and Puratan Rehits which say Singhs who are Panj, must not be disabled in anyway, meaning they must be of perfect health as per nearly all warrior traditions.

Historic references i.e. Cunningham 1849 and Khem Singh Bedis Sanskaar Bagh relate that women receive a slightly different form of amrit i,e, single edged blade or with handle of khanda. This leads one to believe that only men would have been able to prepare amrit for both sexes.

Bhai Chaupa Singh Rehitnama says Khande da amrit (that specific initiation) should not be given to women.

Bhai Desa Singh Rehitnama explicitly says Khande de Pahul should be administered by 5 'Singhs'.

Just some historcal facts (or versions of) for those following the topic with interest, so don't jump down my throat!

The main confusion in my opinion, has arisen from the hugely western influenced 3HO movement, whose example is quoted so often, with all due respect, they hardly represent puratan practice.

Also, the dilution of Khande de Pahul and Singh Khalsa in general, from a Warrior Panth to a pretty passive/middle class Panth has changed attitudes, not to mention the role of amrit sanchaars being taken on by non-Shastardhaari (in the real sense) Gursikh, namely from Sant movements.

I am not in any way objecting to the above (it's simply evolution, condoned by the Panth), but simply saying they play an important psychological role in shaping peoples minds today in terms of these sort of discussions.

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Shaheediyan,

Thanks for your input. It appears you opened another can of worms. I won't comment on all of your post as i beginning of the thread- I have stated, there are two ways of looking at this topic, one from historical point of view and other one from spiritual. I was through out discussing this discussion from spiritual angle. Hands down, from historical point of view it does say- all panj pyares should be male and other stuff which i also hard time believing but history is unbias does not cater for certain mindset. From historical point of view it does say panj pyares should be males. Hence, thats the reason having all males in the amrit sanchar is in parampara of amrit.

I will quickly comment on two of your points:

It's nonsense to be confusing/comparing/talking about Naam Jugti from solo Brahmgynai (male or female) and Khande Batte da Amrit. They are 2 different things serving 2 specific purposes, although the 2nd may contain element/completeness of 1st (dependant on opinion) the 1st does not replace the 2

We are just not talking about naam jugti here but having naam from gurbani itself. I won't say right or wrong. Its very common practice within nirmal samparda and sant movements to have naam(from gurbani) and naam jugti from mahapursh after taking amrit from panj pyares(if they are influenced by sant movement), many of them take naam amrit straight from gurdev skipping sanskar amrit- khanda da amrit despite of that rules are not very different, four kurahit rules still apples to them. In the mainstream, within sant movement main reason is very much to do with avastha of panj pyares, here is the updesh- sant attar singh ji reru sahib gives to sant isher singh ji rara sahib wale regarding amrit sanchar.

sankha%20navirthi.JPG

It clears up lot of doubts in this topic. It talks about naam jugti. But after reading it, it make sense. Avastha of panj pyare is extremely important in amrit as it do with the effect on mind.

Similarly this is second historical event after 1699. I think singh from patiala kingdom was shardlu of sant mandali but he wouldn't take amrit and he clearly stated, i would take amrit from all panj pyares who are bhramgyani like it was back in 1699. Bhramgyanis back around that time came in together regardless of jatha or samparda's got together all- sant nand singh ji, sant jawala singh ji harkhowale, sant isher singh ji rara sahib, i forgot two bhramgyani gursikhs names which i ask for forgiveness, anyway they all got together and gave this patiala raja singh amrit. He felt the energy of bhramgyan. He didn't get bhramgyan right away but felt the energy. From outer aspect, this things might be little but subtly this things matter in your own spiritual progress.

Were Panj Pyare Brahmgyanis when they were unknown and offered their head, or were they Soor-Bir followers of the Guru, who responded to Gurus ferocious call, asking for a head with a sword dripping of blood (Pyare 2 to 5 in anycase). This does not detract the fact that they became Brahmgyani after accepting amrit from Guru (instantly or after spending time with their Master learning from him direct).

Same history i believe rattan singh bhangu talks about panj pyares previous lives of being known bhagats mentioned in sri guru granth sahib ji. Question then comes down to- is bhramgyan is state of mind which gets renewed every life through the efforts or one state which stays through out. I go for the latter view.

Since we heard your input singh, i really appreciate if tsingh and kam veer(online rep of all sant mandali) can input their thoughts.

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