Can Women Be In The Panj Pyare

[savinderpalsingh]

we neither agree with man made jatha's as AKJ nor sgpc penji if you are empasising on them

AKJ themselfs dont agree

AKJ in UK doesnt belive in dasam baani and raag mala

Akj in india doesnt belive in raag mala and no women is allowed as panj pyaare

akj in states, allow women in panj pyaare

they dont know what maryada was and how it was handed out

and sant jarnail singh ji is from damdami taksal
not only sant jarnail singh ji

the orignal and only school started by Guru gobind singh ji

and their maryada was handed out by 10th master himself

there have been numerous bhramgiani;s Women and men who never questioned maryada , and now days people think they know more then them and our gurus

you should research more into sgpc and how it came into existence
also
The time they made maryada was only a handfull people got together and made it , rather then the old maryada handed out by guru gobind singh ji

if you are refering to it , why dont you ask sgpc on this issue , im 100% sure they will deny Women in panj pyaare


the same you can ask Takhat Sri Hazur Sahib/Patna Sahib and Nihang Singh dal's who still follow old maryada

also udasi's and nirmala's

Edited August 8, 2014 by savinderpalsingh

[CdnSikhGirl]

Myself, I don't actually care whether I have five men, five women, a mixture, or a purple elephant (joke) in Panj Pyare as long as they are Amritdhari and sincere. Simply because I CAN look past their physical shell.. and tell myself inside that its not a man giving me Amrit.. it's a SOUL... a SOUL which is the same as mine.

Since our souls are exact same, and in reality everything is really ONE and same divine light is in ALL... then ALL is really Waheguru Ji anyway. So in the end does it matter what sexual part one has when it comes to matters of spirituality which have nothing to do with sex??

Yes Mai Bhago is my hero As I mentioned earlier... I have been in the military for 18 years... also have been in martial arts (Tae Kwon Do) and would love to learn Gatka too!

I think many men try to look too much into it. The reasons I see quoted - if you step back at all... sounds more like Indian culture creeping in than anything to do with spirituality.

There are a lot of Sikhs who do not agree with Damdami Taksal at all... they do not only restrict women from Panj Pyare... they also stop women from kirtan, participating in akhand paaths, acting as Granthi etc. too. I was told by someone who supports DDT that it's blaspheme for a woman to even sit behind and read from SGGSJ because we would 'desicrate it'... that is the thinking of Damdami Taksal. So they pretty much don't allow women to do anything except langar seva. I don't support their views at all because it goes against SGGSJ. Guru Nanak Dev Ji taught equality of genders...

we neither agree with man made jatha's as AKJ nor sgpc penji if you are empasising on them

AKJ themselfs dont agree

AKJ in UK doesnt belive in dasam baani and raag mala

Akj in india doesnt belive in raag mala and no women is allowed as panj pyaare

akj in states, allow women in panj pyaare

they dont know what maryada was and how it was handed out

and sant jarnail singh ji is from damdami taksal
not only sant jarnail singh ji

the orignal and only school started by Guru gobind singh ji

and their maryada was handed out by 10th master himself

there have been numerous bhramgiani;s Women and men who never questioned maryada , and now days people think they know more then them and our gurus

[savinderpalsingh]

see there are just too many idiots who dont agree with guru's Maryada and try to use their own manmatt

those are anti dasam baani

they dont believe in old maryada

basicaly its like saying, we will do what the hell we want


do you think, mata sahib kaur ji never saw anyone besides their physical bodies
do you think those transended bhramgiani's and panj pyaare never saw any one beside physical form

they seen more then you could see penji

culture and the religion from the place it originated goes hand in hand ,

if i take example

guys have night fall, we consider it sooo bad , that its must to take full body shower and put on new clothes
and then recite 1 japji sahib and then we go inside to sit at back of guru granth sahib ji

ofcourse women dont have control over it

because the liquids discharded in periods are as bad as night fall for men

thats the reason why we take extra precaution

do you think its a joke we try to keep soo much cleanliness inside and out?

its akal purakh himself sitting there

our 10 guru's

so you think those saint's who were actually blessed by divine vision who saw nothing but waheguru in everyone , were being sexist?

you are mistaken penji

the most important thing for any one , even a saint is , hukam of guru ,

guru sahib says

Rehni rahe soy sikh mera , oh sahib main us ka chera

the sikh who is full in rehat , i am his student he is my master

rehat bina na sikh kehlave , rehat bina dar thokar khave
without rehat he is not my sikh, without rehat he will be lost

order - decipline- maryada and following guru's word is most important

Guru granth sahib ji is whole universe's guru

while maryada is only for khalsa

simple as that

also try to read their biographies or stories of their life's you will be blown with their bhagti

even bhai randhir singh ji (who started AKJ) was blessed with divine vission he saw waheguru in everyone

but thats the reason why akj in india, do not let women in panj pyaare

theres also maryada of taking bath before going to gurudwara and wearing fresh cleaned clothes but people as usual now days dont follow it


there is a real story from sri hazur sahib

back in few years , there was a huge look over of shahid singhs on the whole city

the jatherdar used to stand on door and asked , people to only go inside after taking bath and wear clean clothes

one day a singh lied and went inside the premesis he was not in main hall yet

but everyone saw him lying and screaming in pain !!

and soon it was over

he explained a yellow bana nihang singh , punished him for not taking bath and broke his leg

and yes his leg was broken

and yes after that bhramgiani's did lot of ardas and the look out is reduced to the place where angitha sahib ji is inside

and recently when current jathedar ji were to be apointed by sangat a singh denied and went inside.

he got his feet burned

so yes maryada is important , and people knew about this and were more wise then so called people now days

Edited August 8, 2014 by savinderpalsingh

[CdnSikhGirl]

WJKK WJKF

Now here I have to disagree with you... natural biological functions that we may see as somehow unclean are natural and were created by Waheguru Ji. And btw women only experience that sometimes... and even then, many now take medicine that even stop that function altogether. Not that it matters because that does not have anything to do with anything. A man can cut his finger would be same thing...

Do you think the power of Gurbani is so fragile that something humans consider unclean could ever mar it??

It is for these reasons I will never follow DDT. See... I knew it was more than the issue of Panj Pyare... it's basically everything...DDT bar women from doing anything execpt feeding the men. Basically DDT is only for the men...

Religion also surpasses culture... Sikhi is a universal religion, its not only for Punjabis... though I have acquired a great deal of Punjabi culture aspects I will never consider myself as 'unclean' for simply being a woman. That is Hindu thinking... Anyway with that we will have to agree to disagree.... and that is fine. We can both progress on this spiritual path. I just prefer to be on the slightly more woman friendly path... we will end up at the same destination though.

I don't wish to get into any arguments... I know where I am spiritually and I know what I have experienced thus far... enough that I KNOW I am on the right path.

I wish you well in your journey...

WJKK WJKF

see there are just too many idiots who dont agree with guru's Maryada and try to use their own manmatt

those are anti dasam baani

they dont believe in old maryada

basicaly its like saying, we will do what the hell we want


do you think, mata sahib kaur ji never saw anyone besides their physical bodies
do you think those transended bhramgiani's and panj pyaare never saw any one beside physical form

they seen more then you could see penji

culture and the religion from the place it originated goes hand in hand ,

if i take example

we a guy has night fall, we consider it sooo bad , that its must to take full body shower and put on new clothes
and then recite 1 japji sahib and then we go inside to sit at back of guru granth sahib ji

ofcourse women dont have control over it

because the liquids discharded in periods are as bad as night fall for men

thats the reason why we take extra precaution

do you think its a joke we try to keep soo much cleanliness inside and out?

its akal purakh himself sitting there

our 10 guru's

so you think those saint's who were actually blessed by divine vision who saw nothing but waheguru in everyone , were being sexist?

you are mistaken penji

the most important thing for any one , even a saint is , hukam of guru ,

guru sahib says

Rehni rahe soy sikh mera , oh sahib main us ka chera

the sikh who is full in rehat , i am his student he is my master

rehat bina na sikh kehlave , rehat bina dar thokar khave
without rehat he is not my sikh, without rehat he will be lost

order - decipline- maryada and following guru's word is most important

Guru granth sahib ji is whole universe's guru

while maryada is only for khalsa

simple as that

also try to read their biographies or stories of their life's you will be blown with their bhagti

even bhai randhir singh ji (who started AKJ) was blessed with divine vission he saw waheguru in everyone

but thats the reason why akj in india, do not let women in panj pyaare

Edited August 8, 2014 by Satkirin_Kaur

[savinderpalsingh]

thats funny , so you are saying that you wont follow because you dont understand it?
try to dig in more deep research more, that what we all do in free time, read old book , biographies, real life accounts stories


i will update on taksali maryada latter , do's and donts and why it is that .after consulting a taksali singh

the oldest religion is hinduism
im not saying we are effected but in older times it was not a religion but a culture,
a culture which evolved, some practices we were deemed and some were good


so you are saying that mata sahib kaur ji, the adh shakti herself never considered herself clean ?
you got to be kidding me , have an open mind and try to understand why its done ,

by saying that you just said, that all those highly respected , women in our history which we hold the uttmost regard in our heart ,
you just said they are all unclean !!


i do not wish for arguments, but i like to clear doubt's
only once you let go of your old cultural knowledge you were born into, then you can gain knew


if sikhism was global and it is, why did guru gobind singh ji created maryada because all are one

and for one , everyone should follow .

if you have doubts get them cleared, dont shut them out and label , the school started by Guru gobind singh ji as bad

you know how much disrecpect it means?
that 10 master wasnt good enough

you think he never thought of future? most mistaken , i tell you

Good luck , and kindly explore more

[CdnSikhGirl]

I was not the one who said women were unclean...you said because of biological function DDT ill not allow women near SGGSJ... if that were the reason, then women beyond that function (older) and women who had hysterectomies or take medicine to stop that function, should be allowed. And rest of women every other time of the month that they are not. To say that I can't touch SGGSJ because I would desecrate it is wrong...

I also read that there is not absolute proof that DDT is in fact direct lineage from Guru Gobind Singh Ji's time. They state they are... but can they prove it all the way back?

I follow the only Guru that we are supposed to follow... Sru Guru Granth Sahib Ji... declared as such by Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself. In there it states that everyone are equal. It also states that these physical bodies are nothing... they are just characters being played by the same ONE actor... also it states that those who recognize the divine light equally in everyone understand the meaning of the Guru's teachings. To separate by gender, and nit pick on biological functions and discriminate based on them to me is not seeing that divine light in women...

I never said anything about Mata Sahib Kaur Ji or anyone else... I simply said that I refuse to consider myself 'unclean' because I am a female... that was in response to you stating that DDT take 'extra precautions on cleanliness' by restricting women because of a biological function that was intended by Waheguru Ji as part of creation. And I certainly don't feel like a woman would desecrate SGGSJ for sitting behind or reading from it when ALL Sikhs are instructed to read and learn from our only Guru!

I respect and admire Mai Bhago especially... and I am sure Guru Ji did not consider her unclean!

thats funny , so you are saying that you wont follow because you dont understand it?
try to dig in more deep research more, that what we all do in free time, read old book , biographies, real life accounts stories


i will update on taksali maryada latter , do's and donts and why it is that .after consulting a taksali singh

the oldest religion is hinduism
im not saying we are effected but in older times it was not a religion but a culture,
a culture which evolved, some practices we were deemed and some were good


so you are saying that mata sahib kaur ji, the adh shakti herself never considered herself clean ?
you got to be kidding me , have an open mind and try to understand why its done ,

by saying that you just said, that all those highly respected , women in our history which we hold the uttmost regard in our heart ,
you just said they are all unclean !!


i do not wish for arguments, but i like to clear doubt's
only once you let go of your old cultural knowledge you were born into, then you can gain knew


if sikhism was global and it is, why did guru gobind singh ji created maryada because all are one

and for one , everyone should follow .

if you have doubts get them cleared, dont shut them out and label , the school started by Guru gobind singh ji as bad

you know how much disrecpect it means?
that 10 master wasnt good enough

you think he never thought of future? most mistaken , i tell you

Good luck , and kindly explore more

[BhagatSingh]

gender does not matter. Amrit is beyond the phsyical realm

(Why does gender always seem to stand out as somehow being different than any other difference anyway?)

Myself, I don't actually care whether I have five men, five women

You say that and then place all the blame on men and make women out to be the victims of everything. All without really considering the full situation.

there are other groups who want to further limit women

They will not allow women to participate

Usually the men are the ones who never see an issue

there are restrictions placed on women that men never have to worry about

A man would never understand the feeling

it's men who are dictating that tradition

It feels like it's somehow stating that women "require" men just to advance spiritually

It's usually men who downplay the seriousness of women's plight

I think many men try to look too much into it.

Without thinking of any alternative explanation, your mind goes straight to

"Men are always perpetrators, Women are always victims."

Is that a healthy view of reality? I think not.

[CdnSikhGirl]

It's obviously not all men since SRM states women can. But it's not SGGSJ since nothing in there instructs to place restrictions on women. And it IS always the men not the women who become defensive if anyone suggests that women deserve equal treatment. I know it's not all of them though... But ones who consider us to be unclean to the point that simply our presence would desecrate SGGSJ .... That hurts.

You say that and then place all the blame on men and make women out to be the victims of everything. All without really considering the full situation.

Without thinking of any alternative explanation, your mind goes straight to

"Men are always perpetrators, Women are always victims."

Is that a healthy view of reality? I think not.

[savinderpalsingh]

why is it that only women in this age and manmatiye are saying this?

why did mata sahib kaur ji and mai bhago ji and many other fierce and nam abhiyasi singhnies never questioned

or

had any problems as you guys are now days posing?!!

because they followed rehat and they had much more

gian

insight

had completely understood guru's hukam

and yes here is the rehat for you

pWc isMG AMimRq jo dyvYN qW ko isr Dr Ck pun lyvY ] pun iml pWco rihq jo BwKY qW ko mn myN idRV kr rwKY ]

paa(n)ch si(n)gh a(n)mrith jo dhaevai(n) thaa(n) ko sir dhhar shhak pun laevai ||apun mil paa(n)cho rehith jo bhaakhai thaa(n) ko man mae(n) dhrirr kar raakhai ||

Offer you head and take the Amrit prepared by five Singhs. The code of conduct (Rehat), which they bless you with, should be enshrined in one's heart.

Krith Bilaas Paathshahee Dasvee

people now days dont agree with guru !!

and start to do their own manmatt !!

Gur Kai Grihi Saevak Jo Rehai ||

That selfless servant, who lives in the Guru's household,

Gur Kee Aagiaa Man Mehi Sehai ||

Is to obey the Guru's Commands with all his mind.

the word panj pyaare it self means

5 singhs

if it was mixed , it would be 5 sikhs

or for women only it would be panj pyaariyaan

Lol and the fateh would be different?

the word panj pyaare itself denies this

the saints follow guru's Hukam , so Did bhai randhir singh ji

thats why in india no where , and any jatha that follows old rehat , only 5 singhs are allowed to be in panj pyaare

it hurts you because you dont accept it as gurus hukam , then ones who do they never question

just like bhai lena , who climmbed wrong tree as per hukam of guru nanak dev ji to take mangoes.

it never hurted Mai bhago or other singhnies?

it never hurted my mother mata sahib kaur ji , adh shakti herself !!

people become defensive against , who question and want to change the maryada passed down by guru gobind singh ji

as for taksali singhs

sant ji explained it very clearly !!

women were not allowed in DDT, to stop singhs from having bad thoughts

Lust is very strong , the strongest of 5 vices.

even baba deep singh ji , escorted with whole jatha a princess he saved .

because that princess wanted to marry him. but he denied

any sexual liquid discharge , has to be cleansed via full bath

and clean clothes

not just singhnies, singhs also, as i explained earlier

and gave you a live example of a singh who got his leg broken by shahid singh

but you keep denying it.

so as per you, we shoudnt wash hands , cause bani would never get dirty

true but you fail to see its guru nank dev ji himself there , not just pages and ink

cleaniless is very important,

even as baani never get dirty or low or anything bad happns to it

however

Guru arjan dev ji, used to keep guru granth sahib ji , on bed

and he himself slept on floor

do you think , that he didnt knew this?!!!

all i see is this soo called new generation questioning without accepting guru's hukam

Edited August 9, 2014 by savinderpalsingh

[chatanga1]

I also believe the SRM actually states that Panj Pyare can be any baptized Sikh. In fact it directly states that women CAN. Quoted directly from SGPC website:

"Ceremony of Baptism or Initiation

Article XXIV

a. Ambrosial baptism should be held at an exclusive place away from common human traffic.

b. At the place where ambrosial baptism is to be administered, the holy Guru Granth Sahib should be installed and ceremonially opened. Also present should be six committed baptised Sikhs, one of whom should sit in attendance of the Guru Granth Sahib and the other five should be there to administer the ambrosial baptism. These six may even include Sikh women. All of them must have taken bath and washed their hair."

link:

http://sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html

^^^Should not this be the final authority on it? Different Sants come and go and may agree or even disagree with each other on different aspects of Sikhi ....But isn't the SRM what we are actually AGREEING to abide by when we take Amrit? In that case, by not allowing women, isn't that actually going AGAINST the SRM?

When I just looked up AKJ, they state they do in fact support and fully follow the SGPC SRM, with only a few tiny differences involving the keski. (which does not go against SRM only adds to it) SO that is why they allow women to act as Panj Pyare.

(you keep referring to Bindrinwale - so he was DDT and they use a different rehet maryada I believe?) But Akal Takht and SGPC state the official Rehet Maryada is the SRM which I quoted above. So maryada does in fact state that women CAN.

Thanks for that. It's new to me, so I'm glad you have brought that valuable information here. However, I have never heard of the SGPC conducting any sinchaar with women. They do a monthly sinchaar at Sri Akal Takht Sahib every month. If you go to Amritsar, if possible make some enquiries there, and share it with the forum.

Since our souls are exact same, and in reality everything is really ONE and same divine light is in ALL... then ALL is really Waheguru Ji anyway. So in the end does it matter what sexual part one has when it comes to matters of spirituality which have nothing to do with sex??

If our souls are the same, and in reality everything is really ONE and same divine light is in ALL... then ALL is really Waheguru Ji anyway, can you marry another woman? It can be part of spirituality and have nothing to do with sex.

It is for these reasons I will never follow DDT. See... I knew it was more than the issue of Panj Pyare... it's basically everything...DDT bar women from doing anything execpt feeding the men. Basically DDT is only for the men...

I also read that there is not absolute proof that DDT is in fact direct lineage from Guru Gobind Singh Ji's time. They state they are... but can they prove it all the way back?

I am getting the feeling you have been acquiring your knowledge of the Taksal from the Akj. They regularly pose the questions you are asking, in order to denigrate the Taksals maryada.

I respect and admire Mai Bhago especially... and I am sure Guru Ji did not consider her unclean!

why did mata sahib kaur ji and mai bhago ji and many other fierce and nam abhiyasi singhnies never questioned or had any problems as you guys are now days posing?!!

because they followed rehat and they had much more gian insight had completely understood guru's hukam

There is a sakhi of Mai Bhago, when in Nander she began like a lot of Singhs used to, only wearing Kashera. Guru Ji told her that she must cover her body. Singhs could wear only Kashera as Bana, if they wanted to, but not Singhnia. They still had to cover themselves properly. Today, you can still see Singhs in only Kashera, or chola with no pyjama, but you will never see a Singhni like this, they have to wear pyjama.

And Mai Bhago returned to her previous way of dressing after Guru Ji told her to.

[BhagatSingh]

It's obviously not all men since SRM states women can. But it's not SGGSJ since nothing in there instructs to place restrictions on women. And it IS always the men not the women who become defensive if anyone suggests that women deserve equal treatment. I know it's not all of them though... But ones who consider us to be unclean to the point that simply our presence would desecrate SGGSJ .... That hurts.

Come back to the point. You believe that women face issues because men have deliberately set things against them, and that they refuse to accept this. Is that it?

I gave you a hint, this is false.

This is nothing new though. This is what our western society teaches us. But this is the wrong approach.

In India, in puratan societies, men and women worked together, based on the principle of complementarity. They were not in a fight with each other, trying to establish some poorly defined, unreachable notion of equality. Instead, they completed each other. They understood that even-though the soul is the same, unchanging but the body, brain, psychology and the capabilities of men and women are very different. They understood the differences and structured their societies to work with those differences. They worked on the notion that "We are equally beautiful but beautifully different"

[CdnSikhGirl]

Bhaghat Singh Ji to answer your question about marrying a woman no because that is the one thing both are needed for... Procreation. Two women could not produce a child. However spiritual things do not need sexual parts at all.

What about women who never fit into the neat little box you've illustrated in the complimentary roles? That usually means women are restricted and men aren't at all. It usually means women cook clean and raise babies and most patriarchal societies also say women are there to please men sexually (and never the other way round) that complimentary but different role issue has oppressed women for ages.

I agree we should all compliment one another but gender shouldn't dictate it. Some women were born for military (like me) and some men were born to be caretakers. And there's nothing wrong with that. I was never attracted to doing housework for a living or raising babies... In fact I feel awkward around infants. I don't feel awkward in a battle scenario.... Explain that?

And as for the SRM it is the widely accepted rehet maryada worldwide. The DDT maryada is not.

And some of the most beautiful kirtan I have ever heard was by Bibian not Singhs. I also sing myself. I feel closer to Waheguru Ji doing kirtan and simran than in ever do listening to others... If I had to only ever listen to Singhs.... My soul would hurt. To preclude women from that would be wrong. Everyone should be able to sing kirtan and also do ardaas and take hukam etc. And I don't see anything wrong with women panj either. By not allowing women to fully do duties as Khalsa is same as saying women are never really fully Khalsa at all.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Also as I said it spreads a mentality that women are lacking spiritually. I have noticed I am not taken as seriously as men on here and other forums when I put something spiritual related because I am 'just a woman' case in point I replied to your post about OBEs something that may help you because I have a lot of experience with OBEs etc and you did not even acknowledge it.

[BhagatSingh]

Bhaghat Singh Ji

I'd appreciate it if my name was spelled correctly.

to answer your question about marrying a woman no because that is the one thing both are needed for... Procreation. Two women could not produce a child. However spiritual things do not need sexual parts at all.

What was the question?

What about women who never fit into the neat little box you've illustrated in the complimentary roles?

I just said "men and women are different". How you got boxes from that, I'll never know.

Oh wait I do know. It's called projection.

there are other groups who want to further limit women

They will not allow women to participate

Usually the men are the ones who never see an issue

there are restrictions placed on women that men never have to worry about

A man would never understand the feeling

it's men who are dictating that tradition

It feels like it's somehow stating that women "require" men just to advance spiritually

It's usually men who downplay the seriousness of women's plight

I think many men try to look too much into it.

Look at all these boxes.

That usually means women are restricted and men aren't at all.

More boxes.

It usually means women cook clean and raise babies

And you are probably thinking "men restrict women by making them raise babies". am I psychic?

and most patriarchal societies also say women are there to please men sexually (and never the other way round) that complimentary but different role issue has oppressed women for ages.

We are talking about India here, let's stick to the topic.

I agree we should all compliment one another but gender shouldn't dictate it.

Why not?

Some women were born for military (like me) and some men were born to be caretakers. And there's nothing wrong with that. I was never attracted to doing housework for a living or raising babies... In fact I feel awkward around infants. I don't feel awkward in a battle scenario.... Explain that?

I don't have to explain that. If you like fighting. Go do it.

And as for the SRM it is the widely accepted rehet maryada worldwide. The DDT maryada is not

I think you have the bhagats mixed up. I am not here to talk to you about Damdami Taksal. That's bhagat Chatanga. Who is a completely different person, and we don't even agree on many things. E.g. he thinks Dharam Das was a jatt by caste and I don't.

[BhagatSingh]

Also as I said it spreads a mentality that women are lacking spiritually.

More "women are victims and men are perpetrators" nonsense. These are boxes, you do know that right?

I have noticed I am not taken as seriously as men on here and other forums when I put something spiritual related because I am 'just a woman' case in point I replied to your post about OBEs something that may help you because I have a lot of experience with OBEs etc and you did not even acknowledge it.

You are not taken seriously, because you make absurd claims without any reasoning or evidence. Even in this situation you look for "women as victims and men as perpetrators". There could be many reasons why I didn't respond to your message. Perhaps I wasn't ready to respond to it, maybe I forgot to repsond to it, maybe I didn't find it helpful, maybe I had tried that already or maybe I didn't give a shit. Have you paid any attention to my response to other members? have you tried looking at the bigger picture? No. Because I haven't responded to any of their questions and comments either, and they are all men.

But no instead of all those possibilities your first guess is "a man doesn't think I am spiritual because I am a woman". You play the "men are perpetrators, women are victims" card at every possibility and then you expect to be taken seriously.

Bibi Satkirin, you maybe a very spiritual bhagatni but your beliefs, your approach to this issue is simply wrong.

[CdnSikhGirl]

If u r wrong person sorry... I typed on my iPhone... Which is not easy....sorry on typo. No disrespect meant.

Why should we not dictate roles by gender? For the same reason we should not dictate roles based on caste. The caste system was also meant to be complimentary. I'm sure the Dalits have vastly different outlook than Brahmins, khatris etc. though?

Anyway if SRM says both can be Panj then that to me is final authority since it's the widely accepted RM

[BhagatSingh]

Why should we not dictate roles by gender?

The question was, why shouldn't gender dictate our complementing each other? A penis and vagina union is complementary and so is the union of man and woman. The energies that men and women bring into the relationship are complementary.

The caste system was also meant to be complimentary.

Indeed it is. A scholar's energy is different to that of a warrior is different to that of a businessman is different to that of a labourer. And they all complement each other.

I'm sure the Dalits have vastly different outlook than Brahmins, khatris etc. though?

Dalits are out-castes, their lineage does not fit on a caste system and their story is too long and complicated to fit here. It would have to be a separate discussion.

But here you use dalits as an analogy to women, are you comparing women to Dalits?

Edited August 9, 2014 by BhagatSingh

[savinderpalsingh]

it seems you dont read posts correctly, i will paste it again for you penji

Anyway if SRM says both can be Panj then that to me is final authority since it's the widely accepted RM

i gave your answer many times,
why dont you go ask AKJ in india and SGPC (whose maryada you are pointing sooo much)

im sure you will get same answer as i have told million times earlier

you want to follow man made maryada but not our guru's maryada !!

paa(n)ch si(n)gh a(n)mrith jo dhaevai(n) thaa(n) ko sir dhhar shhak pun laevai ||apun mil paa(n)cho rehith jo bhaakhai thaa(n) ko man mae(n) dhrirr kar raakhai ||

Offer you head and take the Amrit prepared by five Singhs. The code of conduct (Rehat), which they bless you with, should be enshrined in one's heart.

Krith Bilaas Paathshahee Dasvee

its clear above, they are singh's

the word panj pyaare it self means

5 singhs

if it was mixed , it would be 5 sikhs

or for women only it would be panj pyaariyaan

Lol and the fateh would be different?

the word panj pyaare itself denies this

the saints follow guru's Hukam , so Did bhai randhir singh ji

thats why in india no where singhnies go in panj pyaare ,

and any jatha that follows old rehat , only 5 singhs are allowed to be in panj pyaare

[chatanga1]

Anyway if SRM says both can be Panj then that to me is final authority since it's the widely accepted RM

That's good. Remember that SRM of SGPC is the basic maryada for the panth, and many samprdayes have maryada in excess of this. So there may be instances where the SGPC maryada may not be acceptable to you, ie regarding meat, but please do not pick and choose at it, wherever you feel it justifies your own thoughts.

[savinderpalsingh]

That's good. Remember that SRM of SGPC is the basic maryada for the panth, and many samprdayes have maryada in excess of this. So there may be instances where the SGPC maryada may not be acceptable to you, ie regarding meat, but please do not pick and choose at it, wherever you feel it justifies your own thoughts.

no its not, lol

how is that basic RM for whole panth?

there are nirmala's udasi's nihang's taksali's

also patna sahib and hazur sahib doesnt agree with sgpc nor their maryada !!

how is that basic maryada?

[CdnSikhGirl]

Panthic Rehet Maryada /Sikh Rehet Maryada states Panj Pyare can be either male or female. The big oppositions are DDT and Sant Samaj.

AKJ regularly allows women.

Quoted from an SGPC member regarding Singhni's as Panj Pyare in Amritsar:

"In amritsar singhnee have taken part in amrit sanchars. in acordance to Sikh Rehet Maryada many amrit sancahars have been carried out where the Panj have had singhnee too."

So women have in fact been Panj Pyare in Amritsar! (though maybe not at Harmandir Sahib)

if it was mixed , it would be 5 sikhs

or for women only it would be panj pyaariyaan

Is it not practice to call gursikhs in the "they" form. such as Baba Jarnail Singh Jee Bhindra Valae, not Bhindra Vala.. same for singhnee not valee but valae... thus it would still be punj pyarae. Also, If women are in the Khalsa, why arent they called Khalsee? We are all Khalsa, regardless of gender.

Quoted from another site, same topic:

"but as per Taksali argument s they say that singni s should not be taken into punj as they have to suffer from the femine natural phenomenas and this is their only argument , where German reports have thrown some light onto this topic that such problems with women does not affect the womens sacred feelings or anything of that sort so in the end i too strongly support that sikh bhenjis mataa s should be taken into punj as well"

If monthly menses are the issue, then for something that is only a few days each month and only during childbearing years, women are being precluded altogether. In reality, this natural biological phenomenon has no bearing on a woman's spirituality. It is not the same as someone mentioned earlier 'night emissions' which I am assuming is semen? So menses is being compared to and actually seen as worse than semen. I hate to say, but there is a huge difference... being that semen requires sexual thoughts which come from not containing kaam, while menses are natural biological function that has nothing at all to do with sexual thoughts. And it also does not mean a woman is somehow unclean during this time. Its not like she would be bleeding all over SGGSJ after all! I have seen men sit behind SGGSJ with a bandaid on a cut finger, they were in fact DDT and nobody said he should not be there even though he had blood on his finger which is in much closer proximity, in fact turning pages of SGGSJ!

However, as a compromise, I am sure women would agree to refrain from it during that time just to keep peace, to be able to do the rest of the time.

no its not, lol

how is that basic RM for whole panth?

there are nirmala's udasi's nihang's taksali's

also patna sahib and hazur sahib doesnt agree with sgpc nor their maryada !!

how is that basic maryada?

From AKJ website on their view on equality and their Rehet Maryada:

"The Akhand Kirtani Jatha make no differentiation between rich or poor, high caste or low caste, male or female. All people who accept the Gurus teachings are allowed to perform seva. When Dayal Das, the grandson of Baba Adam Ji, tried to serve the sangat langar, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji rejected his service and said first acccept my Hukum then you can serve the sangat. Likewise, if one wants to perform any Seva in the Gurus house then they must first accept Gurus hukums such as keeping nitnem, panj kakkars, abstaining from bujjer kurahits, etc."

So they consider Guru's Hukam to consider all Sikhs equally with regards to seva, specifically saying "male and female". They also support their Rehet Maryada as traceable all the way back as well:

How can the AKJ substantiate that their rehit is authentic? The answer comes from looking at historical documents and sources. Keski is a rehit that is clear due to bhat vehees, which are the most historic and authentic documents from the time of the first amrit sanchaar. In these vehis, the records of the original amrit sanchaar list Kesgee as a kakaar. The Akhand Kirtani Jatha is one of the only Sikh groups that still preserves Keski as a kakaar to this day.

Along with his many other qualities, Bhai Randhir Singh was an ardent seeker of truth. He was not bound by many of the Hindu-influenced practices that had infiltrated the panth before his time. He was also not bound by following a belief simply because it was a tradition and therefore assumed to be a maryada.

Bhai Randhir Singh sought to look to Gurbani and Sikh history to see what was the authentic Sikh lifestyle and to revive that lifestyle during his life. Keski rehit was revived because of Bhai Randhir Singh even though it had been on the decline since the reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Bhai Randhir Singh cared only for the truth. He was not a Sant-like figure who was bound by the beliefs of a predecessor from the same jatha or group.

So it is fair to say that while the Akhand Kirtani Jatha is a relatively new Jatha, only around 100 years old, that it has been carrying on the Sikh rehit as it existed during the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee and after the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee, although the true and authentic Sikh rehit may have become rare at various points in our history.

Also, an argument speaking against any Rehet being 'exact' lineage from the original:

It is commonplace for many Sikh organizations to claim an uninterrupted connection back to the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee. A study of Sikh history discredits any such claims. Sikhs should look at their history critically to make the proper judgments on this question. Many groups within the panth claim that their institution has been passed on from the lineage of famous Gursikhs from the time of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee. For example, some claim their lineage comes from Bhai Daya Singh Ji while another group may claim that their unbroken lineage comes from Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji. However, an analysis of these groups demonstrates that their practices are not in line with the great Gursikhs they claim an association with. For example, Bhai Daya Singh Ji mentions to eat out of Sarbloh (iron utensils) from other Amrit Dharis but the group who claims to be descended from his leadership does not follow this practice. Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji describes the method of how panj pyareh teach new Amrit Dharis how to jap naam with the tip of their tongue but the groups claiming a direct lineage to Bhai Mani Singh Ji have not incorporated this into their amrit sanchaars. Secondly, the process of giving authority to one being and passing it down to a student is not in accordance with Gurmat. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave authority to Punj Pyareh and every panthic institution in the past was governed by the Punj Pyareh so no group can claim a direct lineage or a secret understanding of puratan (old time) traditions when they have abandoned the tradition of Punj Pyareh governance.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Satkirin_Kaur

[chatanga1]

how is that basic RM for whole panth?

The Panth Parwan RM is the central maryada of the Panth. It is the most basic maryada, and there is no restrictions on any samprdayes or jathas expanding this maryada to include what they feel is maryada. the Samprdayes have different aspects of maryada, which just expand on this PPRM.

an example is the prayer of Benti Chaupai, the Panth Parwan Maryada says you must read upto pauri 26. All Samprdayes read the whole 31 pauriya, and some read 4 pauriya before the actual Paath.

If you want to discuss this further find an existing thread and let's take it there.

From AKJ website on their view on equality and their Rehet Maryada:

"The Akhand Kirtani Jatha make no differentiation between rich or poor, high caste or low caste, male or female. All people who accept the Gurus teachings are allowed to perform seva. When Dayal Das, the grandson of Baba Adam Ji, tried to serve the sangat langar, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji rejected his service and said first acccept my Hukum then you can serve the sangat. Likewise, if one wants to perform any Seva in the Gurus house then they must first accept Gurus hukums such as keeping nitnem, panj kakkars, abstaining from bujjer kurahits, etc."

Bhenji, did Bhai Ghaniya, Bhai Nand Lal, Mahant Kirpal do any sewa in the Guru's house?

I really couldnt drag myself to respond to your other copy and paste points again.

From my heart, don't make the same mistake as me, and read things and believe they are the one and only jatha that knows everything. The akj's vision of what Gurmat is, has no place in Sikh history. You can read about the bhasaurias and find out more on this find, and that will give you an idea.

The rest is upto you.

[BhagatSingh]

Basically I see this thread coming to this - If you want to take Amrit from panj female pyarey just find out who does it and go take amrit there.

Start your own tradition.

[CdnSikhGirl]

From my heart, don't make the same mistake as me, and read things and believe they are the one and only jatha that knows everything. The akj's vision of what Gurmat is, has no place in Sikh history. You can read about the bhasaurias and find out more on this find, and that will give you an idea.

The rest is upto you.

WJKK WJKF

I won't... I don't consider myself a member of any Jatha etc as I believe we should all be one panth... my response was to savinderpal singh ji, who claimed that SRM is not the basic RM and that DDT's GRM is 'THE' RM - I was only trying to show that all the Jathas claim the same things, that they are the true lineage etc.

Having said that I do find a lot about AKJ appealing... but I am taking Amrit at a Gurdwara that goes purely by SGPC's SRM.

However in practice I do go a bit beyond SRM because I am a vegetarian, and also believe both women and men should tie dastaar. (not exactly for the reasons that AKJ claim though) my reasoning is that when Khalsa was created, and a distinct identity was created, it included the turban. Guru Gobind Singh Ji said that as long as Khalsa maintains its true identity as laid out by him, then he will support fully. Khalsa are supposed to be in Guru Gobind Singh Ji's roop... so how are women who style their hair and don't tie a turban in that image? Simply they aren't. In a crowd, they would not stand out as Sikhs or Khalsa. I am not afraid to stand out, even though locally I am pretty much the only girl who ties a dastar and I am the only gori female too... there is only one other girl who is Amritdhari and ties a dastar but she is not around much. So I stand out even in the local sangat here, and believe me it was not easy when I started to tie dastar.

Also my point about Sants was because people keep bringing up what one in particular said about women and panj as if it were 'word' however I just wanted to show that Sants of different sects teach what was passed down to them through that sect and you can easily find two Sants who disagree on a topic. They are still human...Overall the panth has say over an individual does it not - this even happened in the days of Guru Gobind Singh Ji where he diverted to decision of the panth (I think one such case was a marriage that was opposed but I can't remember the details right now. I am first to admit I am not a Sikh history expert.)

Basically for me it comes down to, I want to be seen as an equal and taken seriously by my Sikh brothers, uncles etc. And not dismissed for simply being a woman. I feel I can contribute just as much and I have had some deeply personal and profound spiritual experiences that have proven to me I am on the right path. I just want to be taken seriously... and not seen as 'just' a woman.

I am also not into argument so I will jump off this debate at this point. I just wanted to show that women can and do act as panj pyare even in Amritsar. I know DDT will oppose... they have always had what can only be termed as 'sexist' views on women.... (there is no way to sugarcoat it) They can say 'just accept and try to understand' all they want but that is just a way to try to avoid the issue.

No matter which path everyone takes (ddt, akj, no jathas etc) ... no matter who we take Amrit from... we are all on the same path and we are all Khalsa. The journey is the same, even though we may just be on parallel paths leading to the same place. And so I wish everyone well on their journey.

WJKK WJKF

[hsingh135798642]

Saint Hi made it pretty clear... Lol I dunno why there is a debate I can't see how any Sikh can try to disagree with a brahmgyani... If rehit says no woman in Panj Pyare then there shouldn't be an argument.. Guru Ji decided who are we to go against... Also the reason I find Gurmat Rehit Maryada accurate over SRM is because AKJ and SGPC composers of SRM are man made while the taksaal is started from Guru Ji. With the first Jathedar Baba Deep Singh... This is a situation of man vs woman as Sant JI Explained....