Can Women Be In The Panj Pyare

[hsingh135798642]

Sant Ji* Silly phone Lol

[hsingh135798642]

This is a NOT!!!! A situation of man vs woman***

Yup time to download a new keyboard. Lol

[CdnSikhGirl]

Saint Hi made it pretty clear... Lol I dunno why there is a debate I can't see how any Sikh can try to disagree with a brahmgyani... If rehit says no woman in Panj Pyare then there shouldn't be an argument.. Guru Ji decided who are we to go against... Also the reason I find Gurmat Rehit Maryada accurate over SRM is because AKJ and SGPC composers of SRM are man made while the taksaal is started from Guru Ji. With the first Jathedar Baba Deep Singh... This is a situation of man vs woman as Sant JI Explained....

Not all Sikhs are DDT. And from history, we know that DDT is not exactly supportive of women. (notice I am trying my absolute best to not use the word 'sexist' - side note: I have a katha saved where a DDT leader came straight out and said that 'women do not and should not have any rights in Sikhi" Any respect I might have had for DDT prior, was destroyed by that one comment)

Also, if Guru Ji had explicitely wanted to bar women from Panj, why did he not include it in his 52 hukams, thereby completely negating ANY confusion?? I think his silence on the matter speaks to his intent. He did not have a preference either way... he called for five Sikhs, not five men. And then he was silent on the issue.

The fact that it's men who keep interpreting what Guru Ji intended, also speaks volumes. Nobody can say for sure what Guru Ji intended.... except for Guru Ji himself, and given the opportunity, he remained silent on the issue, not even mentioning it in his 52 Hukams.

What I find even more fascinating, is that all the 'men' who have interpreted Guru Ji's intentions in this matter, seem to have some inflated sense of self entitlement, standing on the backs of the original five. (It was not YOU who was there in 1699 to give your head, yet you feel entitled now simply because you are the same gender.)

Also, the panth speaks louder than any person, Sant, or Jatha. Even in Guru Ji's time, he referred decisions to the panth. In this matter, the panth has spoken, and the SRM reflects the panth's decision.... that Panj Pyare can be either male or female. So there should be no more issue or argument on this.

Of course, you are free to follow any more restrictive RM that you wish, but don't expect everyone else to do so. And if you follow DDT GRM, then follow all of it. I have known DDT followers, who like preaching the bits about restrictions on women, but then self-admittedly watch porn, which is also prohibited in the DDT GRM (as is self-pleasure).

Lastly, how can you say that DDT's GRM is for sure more accurate? I have provided earlier in the thread evidence against it, brought forth by AKJ. Of course, if you follow DDT, I don't expect you agree with AKJ. However my point is, I don't follow any Jatha for this reason, they all disagree with each other... I instead will follow the bulk of the panth, and the SRM which was agreed upon by majority.

Specifically in his 52 Hukams Guru Gobind Singh Ji DID make the related statement concerning positions of authority in Sikhi:

#27 "Think independently. In the affairs of governing, do not give the power of religious authority to those of other faiths."

The fact that Guru Ji did not say anything about it at all, speaks volumes! In his 52 Hukams, if he had wanted to restrict Sikh women from positions of authority (Panj Pyare are seen as authority are they not? Especially for those being re-baptized and illustrating maryada etc.) There was the perfect opportunity...however, he remained conspicuously quiet on it. Why?

I think this speaks for the fact that gender did not matter to him with regards to leadership or authority. He could have easily removed ALL doubts on this issue by instead wording it as "In the affairs of governing, do not give the power of religious authority to those of other faiths, or women." Panj Pyare, Granthi, etc are positions of leadership and religious authority - But he specifically did not mention gender...at all! And this was AFTER Vaisakhi 1699. If Guru Ji had intended in placing restrictions on one gender but not the other, surely such an important issue would be included in his 52 Hukams??? For gender not to be even mentioned in this capacity at all, surely it means Guru Ji thought about more important things than a person's gender!!! This was Guru Gobind Singh Ji's own words and own Hukam...written AFTER Vaisakhi 1699 (1708) and no mention about gender restrictions at all. Certainly if he held any grudge against women for none of them volunteering their head that day, he would have made it clear in his 52 hukams? But nothing....

By contrast, DDT actually restrict women from ALL positions of authority, not just Panj Pyare. Also Granthi, gurdwara management committee positions and even they are barred from participating in Akhand Paaths. But Guru Ji's Hukam restricts these positions only to those of "other faiths". So.... having women in Panj Pyare is NOT going against Guru Ji's intent... since his intent on this was not written down specifically, nobody can say for sure. But barring women from positions of authority within SIkhi certainly DOES go against #27 where the only mention of restricting anyone, applies to those of 'other faiths'.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Satkirin_Kaur

[CdnSikhGirl]

Edited August 18, 2014 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Koi]

Just as woman is responsible for physical birth, so the man is responsible for spiritual birth (Panj Piyare). Guru Ji has created this as a balance.

Otherwise, we might as well complain to God that men having the inability to give birth is "inequality".

[CdnSikhGirl]

Just as woman is responsible for physical birth, so the man is responsible for spiritual birth (Panj Piyare). Guru Ji has created this as a balance.

Otherwise, we might as well complain to God that men having the inability to give birth is "inequality".

Except... spiritually we are ALL female! Secondly, if men are somehow jealous about women giving birth, I am absolutely POSITIVE majority of women would trade if they could! And, if this were the case then, as I said, Guru Ji would have specified on that day "five men" but instead said "five sikhs" and he certainly would have mentioned in his 52 Hukams. This is just another 'theory' without proof, as many people have taken Amrit with female Panj Pyare. A theory that majority of the panth does not agree with, or else the SRM would not specify that either gender can be Panj Pyare.

[chatanga1]

Except... spiritually we are ALL female! Secondly, if men are somehow jealous about women giving birth, I am absolutely POSITIVE majority of women would trade if they could! And, if this were the case then, as I said, Guru Ji would have specified on that day "five men" but instead said "five sikhs" and he certainly would have mentioned in his 52 Hukams. This is just another 'theory' without proof, as many people have taken Amrit with female Panj Pyare. A theory that majority of the panth does not agree with, or else the SRM would not specify that either gender can be Panj Pyare.

Guru Ji is said to have called for "5 Heads" not 5 Sikhs. However if 5 men had come up, and during all the subsequent amrit sinchars during his lifetime, Guru Ji could easily have said "give the females a chance to participate in this" couldn't he?

The Panj pyare in their physical roop represent the Guru physically, so this may be a reason why Guru Ji chose this.

And when the Guru's were choosing successors for Guruship, why did Guru NanakDev Ji only test the men? There is no evidence or sakhi that any women were tested for suitability.

Bibi Bhani secured a promise from her father Guru Amardas to keep the Guruship in her family, why did Guru Ji give it to her husband and not her? 6th Guru had daughters, why weren't they considered ?

Also, the panth speaks louder than any person, Sant, or Jatha. Even in Guru Ji's time, he referred decisions to the panth. In this matter, the panth has spoken, and the SRM reflects the panth's decision.... that Panj Pyare can be either male or female. So there should be no more issue or argument on this.

Of course, you are free to follow any more restrictive RM that you wish, but don't expect everyone else to do so.

Here I am in agreement with you. The SRM reflects the panths decision. So when you do take amrit, accept non vegetarian Sikhs as your equals as the SRM also forbid only halal meat for Sikhs, whereas many advocate that sikhs can only be vegetarians.

Not all Sikhs are DDT. And from history, we know that DDT is not exactly supportive of women. (notice I am trying my absolute best to not use the word 'sexist' - side note: I have a katha saved where a DDT leader came straight out and said that 'women do not and should not have any rights in Sikhi" Any respect I might have had for DDT prior, was destroyed by that one comment)

Your knowledge of DDT seems to have come form akj. they usually say all the kind of stuff you are parroting. Anyway, if what you say is true, and if you have it recorded, it would be great to listen to it, because action can be taken against the offender, the person saying it cannot be speaking for sikhs or the ddt.

This should be pretty clear, and if you, for all your posturing on this forum about equality and such would hold an entire jatha responsible for the alleged words of one of it's members then maybe that tells us more about you, than the issue.

"any prior respect" - woman, you should listen to yourself sometimes!

let's hear the recording.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Guru Ji is said to have called for "5 Heads" not 5 Sikhs. However if 5 men had come up, and during all the subsequent amrit sinchars during his lifetime, Guru Ji could easily have said "give the females a chance to participate in this" couldn't he?

He didn't say either way... that says a lot!!! And again, he could have written it in the 52 Hukams if he considered gender such an imporant quality for Panj Pyare. His silence in this case actually speaks louder than words... It shows he had no preference either way. He took such care in writing down his 52 Hukams for Sikhs to follow, yet he never mentioned gender at all with any reference to religious 'authority' positions. So I'll ask again: Surely if he had intended to restrict women from any position of authority and specifically Panj Pyare seva, he would have written something so imporant in his 52 Hukams, which was written in 1708, long after that fateful Vaisakhi Day 1699? However, in his 52 hukams, the only reference to any such restriction on authority positions within Sikhi applies only to members of 'other faiths'.

And when the Guru's were choosing successors for Guruship, why did Guru NanakDev Ji only test the men? There is no evidence or sakhi that any women were tested for suitability. Bibi Bhani secured a promise from her father Guru Amardas to keep the Guruship in her family, why did Guru Ji give it to her husband and not her? 6th Guru had daughters, why weren't they considered ?

Easy: Culturally it would never have been accepted at that time. Even today in Punjab, it is very Patriarchal. If Punjab still has not advanced beyond Patriarchy even today, do you think society at that time would have accepted a female? It very well could have been a different outcome if Guru Nanak Dev Ji were born in present time instead of over 500 years ago.

Here I am in agreement with you. The SRM reflects the panths decision. So when you do take amrit, accept non vegetarian Sikhs as your equals as the SRM also forbid only halal meat for Sikhs, whereas many advocate that sikhs can only be vegetarians.

I do. I acknowledge that it doesn't specify vegetarian or meat either way, except that it can not be sacfiricial meat (killed the Muslim - and by extension also Kosher) meat. Myself I am vegetarian, but that is a personal choice.

Your knowledge of DDT seems to have come form akj. they usually say all the kind of stuff you are parroting. Anyway, if what you say is true, and if you have it recorded, it would be great to listen to it, because action can be taken against the offender, the person saying it cannot be speaking for sikhs or the ddt.

This should be pretty clear, and if you, for all your posturing on this forum about equality and such would hold an entire jatha responsible for the alleged words of one of it's members then maybe that tells us more about you, than the issue.

I really wish I could say it was just the one person, but it's not. And no I have not actually spoken to many AKJ members. As I stated before I don't follow any jatha. I had another DDT member (who was actually trying to express interest in me for marriage but whatever... I was not interested) Anyway he said DDT teach women should not be 'allowed' to work, or to pursue higher education, that they should be barefoot and pregnant and their 'duty' is to obey and serve the men. He said that's what Guru Ji sees as honorable for women.

Also, I challenge you to prove where women have any semblence of equality (or even say) in DDT religious affairs (Panj Pyare seva aside). Are they free to perform kirtan? Participate in Akhand Paaths? Act as Granthi? How about Gurdwara President, or other committee member positions? Ardaas? Take the Hukamnama? That guy I told you about above, basically stated women are unclean, and therefore they can not even touch SGGSJ, lest they 'desicrate' it. He tried to prove his point on his facebook page, and had several other DDT members agree with him on the post. So yes, my views of DDT were not very high to begin with...

"any prior respect" - woman, you should listen to yourself sometimes!

Since he was speaking in a position where he was publically representing DDT and their beliefs, then you can imagine how that can make women feel listening to it. He got into why women should never be in leadership positions, why they should always obey male leadership, and remain quiet and subservient in religious functions.

let's hear the recording.

I bookmarked the link to it, and will look for it again when I get home. I actually found it originally linked on another site (Sikhsangat I think) where someone else brought it up on a similar thread... also about Panj Pyare. And of course the usual DDT supporters chimed in on that site as well, stating DDT RM is THE RM.

If you are DDT member, and do not think like this about women, then do not take this as directed at you. But in general, those who I have met are very well.... sexist... and it hurts.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Satkirin_Kaur

[chatanga1]

Easy: Culturally it would never have been accepted at that time. Even today in Punjab, it is very Patriarchal. If Punjab still has not advanced beyond Patriarchy even today, do you think society at that time would have accepted a female? It very well could have been a different outcome if Guru Nanak Dev Ji were born in present time instead of over 500 years ago.

Poor thinking, that Guru Nanak was not above culturalism.

Why were women leaders of "Manjis" accepted by the Sikhs?

[das]

Yes, chantanga is right about Manjis; it's when Guru Amar Das ji reinforced the teachings of the previous Gurus by organizing the construction of twenty-two centers of religious learning for the Sikhs. These centers were called Manjis. One local Sikh preacher (Man OR Woman) was appointed at every Manji. From those first 22 appointed, there were many women. So, saying about that GuruJi came as Man just because of the cultural thing is bit misunderstanding.

In-fact, all Gurus condemned the so-called cultural things during those days: Sati, widow marriage etc.

Satkirin, it seems like everybody (including me) is going to stick to their point of view; so there is no point for debate. Discussions are good if both the parties are open minded. In the past, I've sent you the link for Bhagat Kabir's Granth which did explain many interesting things including Man vs Women. I don't understand how could you continue debate without reading something which was referenced?

Again, if you want to believe that women can be Panj Payaras, then it's upto you as you also have a free-will, but please ponder upon the following (and I'm not writing this to discourage you but just as a side note):

* AKJ pretends to be insisting upon the equality in Man vs Woman in terms of women in Pan Payaras; but fails miserably on the human equality basis. e.g some won't eat anything from the person who is not Amrit-dhari. Some go to the extent that cook their OWN food; in other words they don't want any NON-Amritdhari to cook their food. In my view that is ridiculous because you may cook but what about the growing, processing, transporation of the food that YOU are cooking? Where do you stop. And I do understand some AKJ does this and some not.

* AKJ treats Kesge as kakkar but not Kesh (Hair); I got a question for them: Is it okay to cut the hair and get 5 kakkars and be Amrit-dhari?

das

[CdnSikhGirl]

Again, if you want to believe that women can be Panj Payaras, then it's upto you as you also have a free-will, but please ponder upon the following (and I'm not writing this to discourage you but just as a side note):

* AKJ treats Kesge as kakkar but not Kesh (Hair); I got a question for them: Is it okay to cut the hair and get 5 kakkars and be Amrit-dhari?

das

Das Ji,

Its not that I want to -believe- it's that I -know- it to be true... from much research on the subject on my own, the evidence in the support of Guru Gobind Singh JI's 52 Hukams (with no mention of any such restrictions on women), and the fact that SRM states both male or female can be Panj Pyare. The only argument I see against is that there were none in the original five... as if the original five must be emulated exactly. But nobody knows if Guru Ji intended the original five to be emulated exactly??? And if that were the case, why is it not mentioned in the 52 Hukams?? There seems to be a lot of 'because they aren't' with no hard evidence to back it up... and Sants are human and still have opinion - you can't use the opinion of a human as 'proof'. I mean hard evidence... if it was so important to exclude women, then Guru Ji WOULD have certainly written it down, since he thought it necessary to write down 52 other hukams??

Not at all... because cutting hair is already established as one of the 4 main cardinal sins... therefore no they can not cut hair. But they believe that the keski is the 5th kakkar and not the kesh (for the above reason, its already established that we can not cut it), and the other kakkars are external gifts from the guru where kesh is part of the body already. At least that's how it was explained to me about AKJ and their belief about keski.

Yes, we have to agree to disagree... I realized that this forum is majority DDT and will always see women as below them. I am free however to follow SRM and the majority of the panth - I already stated I am not following any jatha - including AKJ.

Gurfateh...

Edited August 19, 2014 by Satkirin_Kaur

[hsingh135798642]

Das Ji,

Its not that I want to -believe- it's that I -know- it to be true... from much research on the subject on my own, the evidence in the support of Guru Gobind Singh JI's 52 Hukams (with no mention of any such restrictions on women), and the fact that SRM states both male or female can be Panj Pyare. The only argument I see against is that there were none in the original five... as if the original five must be emulated exactly. But nobody knows if Guru Ji intended the original five to be emulated exactly??? And if that were the case, why is it not mentioned in the 52 Hukams?? There seems to be a lot of 'because they aren't' with no hard evidence to back it up... and Sants are human and still have opinion - you can't use the opinion of a human as 'proof'. I mean hard evidence... if it was so important to exclude women, then Guru Ji WOULD have certainly written it down, since he thought it necessary to write down 52 other hukams??

Not at all... because cutting hair is already established as one of the 4 main cardinal sins... therefore no they can not cut hair. But they believe that the keski is the 5th kakkar and not the kesh (for the above reason, its already established that we can not cut it), and the other kakkars are external gifts from the guru where kesh is part of the body already. At least that's how it was explained to me about AKJ and their belief about keski.

Yes, we have to agree to disagree... I realized that this forum is majority DDT and will always see women as below them. I am free however to follow SRM and the majority of the panth - I already stated I am not following any jatha - including AKJ.

Gurfateh...

I find it offensive that you say that all of DDT is sexist. You honestly feel that Jathadar of DDT Baba Deep Singh JI saw woman below men?

Btw waiting for the audio or video of the sexist DDT leader... Action needs to be taken against him.

[CdnSikhGirl]

I find it offensive that you say that all of DDT is sexist. You honestly feel that Jathadar of DDT Baba Deep Singh JI saw woman below men?

Btw waiting for the audio or video of the sexist DDT leader... Action needs to be taken against him.

hsingh ji, with much respect, I can't see it any other way because ALL of my interactions with any DDT member were very discouraging. Can you confirm for me that women can participate fully in religious duties (let's exclude Panj Pyare for now... which the argument against women is weak at best) but even taking Panj Pyare out of the equation, nobody has answered me yet... can you confirm to me that women are actively encouraged by DDT to participate freely in the following:

1. Act as Granthi?

2. Perform Kirtan?

3. Participate/recite Akhand Paaths?

4. Take the Hukamnama?

5. Recite Ardaas?

6. How about even chaur sahib seva?

7. Palki seva?

8. How about Katha?

9. Be elected as Gurdwara President?

10. What about other Gurdwara management positions?

Now all of them I am not sure of... that's why I am asking... someone confirm for me all of the above. Since the above is the BULK of religious duties in Sikhi concerning active participation and seva (langar excluded) and also excluding panj pyare for now... remember active participation is an indicator of how a religion (or jatha etc) treats women. In order for women to be seen equally as spiritual (in any religion), they need to be able to participate and act in active positions of leadership in that religion, on par with the men. Or else its too easy to take the mindset that the women can't be taken seriously, and think of them as being less knowledgable spiritually.

Also in order to have balance and equality, is there any seva from which DDT consider men to be prohibited, but women not?

[das]

Satkirin ji,

It seems like you've again ignored my 2 questions: "AKJ's eating only prepared by Amrit-dharis" and reading of Bhagat Kabir's granth?

But anyways, let me restate what I guess number of people on this forum has already stated:

- DDT is NOT against women.

- No-one on this forum is anti-women; how could you think that way: we all took birth from our mother's womb (The women)

Allow me to answer your questions on a personal level. I do NOT represent any jatha and/or group. This is my own individual thinking.

1. Act as Granthi? Yes, because Guru Ji Himself appointed 22 preacher which did include men and women.

2. Perform Kirtan? Yes, because of the above reason.

3. Participate/recite Akhand Paaths? Yes; if women cannot participate in Akhand Paaths then what's the use of Paaths. But one must be clean (man or woman) before sitting on the Paath. You might not know there is a technique called Sampat Paath where even men have to take bath after going to urinals.

4. Take the Hukamnama? Yes

5. Recite Ardaas? Yes

6. How about even chaur sahib seva? Yes

7. Palki seva? Yes

8. How about Katha? Yes

9. Be elected as Gurdwara President? Yes

10. What about other Gurdwara management positions? Any management position in Gurdwara

Can women be part of Panj Payaras: No in general.

At last, 52 Hukams also state that: "Recognize the property of a daughter as poison.?" Could you please ponder upon it? What does it mean? There are many many things which are NOT mentioned in GuruJi's hukams but GuruJi did NOT write Life Manual. Keep that in mind.

das

Edited August 19, 2014 by das

[hsingh135798642]

Satkiran Ji this is becoming insane there are bad people who defame all jathas but to suggest that just because of your bad experiences with DDT Brahmgyani Sant Baba Deep Singh Ji who fought off the enemy and defied death is sexist is taking it too far. Women can participate in all the things you listed. Sant Ji made this clear... Honestly I think you are trying to attack DDT over an issue which is. Not man vs woman because of past experiences.

I'm curious what do you think of Sant kartar Singh Ji Sant gurbachan Singh Ji and Sant jarnail Singh Ji?

[hsingh135798642]

SatkirinJi*** Sorryyyy!!!

[CdnSikhGirl]

Satkiran Ji this is becoming insane there are bad people who defame all jathas but to suggest that just because of your bad experiences with DDT Brahmgyani Sant Baba Deep Singh Ji who fought off the enemy and defied death is sexist is taking it too far. Women can participate in all the things you listed. Sant Ji made this clear... Honestly I think you are trying to attack DDT over an issue which is. Not man vs woman because of past experiences.

I'm curious what do you think of Sant kartar Singh Ji Sant gurbachan Singh Ji and Sant jarnail Singh Ji?

I never said any such thing about Baba Deep Singh Ji??

I said there is no written rule that states women are not 'allowed' to be Panj Pyare. To say that its purely because no woman stood up as one of the first 5, is a weak argument. You can't punish all women for all time, for what those either did or didn't do that day. After all, all the men who act as Panj in the present day, were also not there on that day. It's a weak argument. And then Guru Gobind Singh Ji remained silent on the issue... never recording anything at all concerning gender. So I although I respect Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, I don't have to agree 100% with everything he says. And there are other Sants (not Taksalis) who state things which are contradiction to him... so its impossible to know who is 100% correct. And as I said, Panth decisions outweigh the decisions of individuals, and the panth as a *mostly* whole, decided Panj Pyare is not dependent upon gender.

The bits specifically about DTT I did not say all DDT are sexist. What I said was that due to my first hand experiences with them (plural... numerous members) it was very discouraging and those members definitely were sexist. Case in point (this is just one member and only recent comments. He actually went as far as saying women desecrate SGGSJ just by touching it since women are unclean at one point awhile back). He is VERY much follower of Taksalis and outright stated that is who he learned from...

[jaikaara]

Mata Jeeto ji and Mata Sahib Deva ji could initiate amrit , it was Mata Jeeto ji who added the bataashe to the Amrit at Anandpur Sahib on the Foundation day of the Khalsa...what i personally feel is when Guru Maharaj asked for the heads 5 times ..it is obvious that no woman was expected to come up. The Panj pyaare initially were men, however if the women could be initiated into Khalsa they could be part of the Panj pyaare thereafter.

I personally feel this Panth of ours broke all the dogmas then why restrict women and make it sound typically bigoted.

[Guest]

I think we can loosen or lighten up little bit..its not end of world if women take panj pyares di seva. We should be able to do small compromise for sake of unity/bigger picture/effectiveness of parchar/situation/sikhi parchar to western hemisphere- western people (like 3ho have done).

Panth can still have rules of having all male as panj pyares in five takths to uphold takth maryada but loosen up or lighten up when it comes to generic panj pyare maryada-allow women to be in seva. There should not be one rigid rule as such all across the board, there have been female gursikhs have been bhramgyani..one should not let this nitty gritty issues come up when it comes to take laha of bhramgyani sangat be it in form of panj pyares or not as bhramgyani is above gender issues.

Here is thread dedicated to sikh woman parcharikhs:

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/70272-thread-dedicated-to-sikh-woman-parcharikhssants/

[hsingh135798642]

Yea hope nobody is getting offended I think its nice we can have this discussion and no personal attacks So that DDT guy is really misled, woman sit behind guru ji all the time, can't say he is real DDT. At the end of the day we all have our opinions, and I ain't about to hate anyone if they have different views

[chatanga1]

I said there is no written rule that states women are not 'allowed' to be Panj Pyare.

There isn't anything written, but in Sikh history and tradition, oral tradition is a great part. Remember that Baba Deep Singh outlived Guru Ji for 50 years, during which not one move was made to include women.

But what Neo says is best. I have no problem with it per se, but would rather such initiatives come from Sri Akal Takht Sahib or Sarbat Khalsa, which have the potential of dividing an already fractured panth.

Mata Jeeto ji and Mata Sahib Deva ji could initiate amrit , it was Mata Jeeto ji who added the bataashe to the Amrit at Anandpur Sahib on the Foundation day of the Khalsa...what i personally feel is when Guru Maharaj asked for the heads 5 times ..it is obvious that no woman was expected to come up. The Panj pyaare initially were men, however if the women could be initiated into Khalsa they could be part of the Panj pyaare thereafter.

I personally feel this Panth of ours broke all the dogmas then why restrict women and make it sound typically bigoted.

It didnt break ALL dogmas, because all the Gurus were male.

Also Mata Sundri outlived Guru Ji as well, and issued hukamnamas to the panth as well. But yet no change was made.

[chatanga1]

Yea hope nobody is getting offended I think its nice we can have this discussion and no personal attacks So that DDT guy is really misled, woman sit behind guru ji all the time, can't say he is real DDT. At the end of the day we all have our opinions, and I ain't about to hate anyone if they have different views

yes he is, I have never known here in the uk that DT have placed any such restrictions on sewa.

[savinderpalsingh]

they have translated wrong in english , sgpc RM

the punjabi version states from SGPC RM

that the panj pyaare are singhs !! highlighted in yellow


so yes your false excuse that sgpc RM doesnt state singhniyan are allowed is false

everything which sant jarnail singh ji and other jathe's said is true including sants

Edited August 23, 2014 by savinderpalsingh

[hsingh135798642]

they have translated wrong in english , sgpc RM

the punjabi version states from SGPC RM

that the panj pyaare are singhs !! highlighted in yellow

so yes your false excuse that sgpc RM doesnt state singhniyan are allowed is false

everything which sant jarnail singh ji and other jathe's said is true including sants

[hsingh135798642]

Well that clears it up... The dangers of English!!! ! Lol.