Can Women Be In The Panj Pyare

[Guest]

Good video by sant ji.

On kirpan da amrit topic, it almost seems like water down version of khanda da amrit but less strict rehat maryada for bibis? or rather intial preliminary amrit stage- begineer amrit like chaula? I guess only difference between kirpan da amrit or chaula is kirpan da amrit you will still get gurmantar and mool mantar ? Like to know whats the rehat maryada of kirpan da amrit? still 5 kakar?

[savinderpalsingh]

Good video by sant ji.

On kirpan da amrit topic, it almost seems like water down version of khanda da amrit but less strict rehat maryada for bibis? or rather intial preliminary amrit stage- begineer amrit like chaula? I guess only difference between kirpan da amrit or chaula is kirpan da amrit you will still get gurmantar and mool mantar ? Like to know whats the rehat maryada of kirpan da amrit? still 5 kakar?

maiyan can wear 5 kakkar ,rehat is not that ough for them i guess, due to physical changes and house hold duties

Edited November 13, 2014 by savinderpalsingh

[Guest]

Which dress mata sahib deva wore? I was told by senior gurmukh- mata sahib devan - lal gagri is still in mata sahib devan gurdwara at hazoor sahib? having five kakar over lal gagri seems pretty impratical to me so it looks like there is strong possiblity miyan who took kirpan da amrit in puratan times never wore 5 kakar with exception of kesh off course and wore lal gagri and still received kirpan da amrit- naam/gurmantar from singh sahib.

[savinderpalsingh]

the old painting at mata sahib deva ji's gurudwara represents a punjabi suit. i have no idea about lal gagri .but it could be that too because gagri was quite common at that time.

[Guest]

Is it safe to assume punjabi suit or gagri was wore with some sort of ornament or jewellery?

[savinderpalsingh]

it might be , but in the suit pic , mata ji didnt wore any jewlry

[Guest]

Is there anyway to see picture of suit of mata sahib devan for historical purposes?

[savinderpalsingh]

however this could be an artists depiction

Edited November 13, 2014 by savinderpalsingh

[Guest]

I was told there is actual punjabi suit relic of mata sahib devan in mata sahib devan gurdwara..it be intereting to see an actual picture of suit.

[Singh123456777]

The reason I asked about the caste is guru Ji never discriminated about the caste so why is he discriminating against women?

[savinderpalsingh]

The reason I asked about the caste is guru Ji never discriminated about the caste so why is he discriminating against women?

this http://www.amritworld.com/pbi/commentary/hazooree_maryada/article_kirpan_da_amrit.pdf , the small paragraphs are from hazuri maryada prabodh .

also chaupa singhs rehatnama is the one with actual historical reference ever found.

Edited November 13, 2014 by savinderpalsingh

[savinderpalsingh]

i have seen pics posted on AKJ forum where you can easliy spot poor photoshop where they tried to put keski on same picture

maiyan never wore keski unless until , like mai bhago ji who went to war

i coudnt find any pics of chola sahib of mata ji

i will try asking some local sangat tomorrow from nanded

Edited November 13, 2014 by savinderpalsingh

[Singh123456777]

In the end your opinion and my opinion will differ but we are still brothers.

[Singh123456777]

One more question arised... Should bibis take Amrit now or is it not needed?

[hsingh89633]

One more question arised... Should bibis take Amrit now or is it not needed?

Amrit Is for all the Khalsa, man AND woman need to take Amrit... Sant Ji says it in the original video.

[Singh123456777]

Amrit Is for all the Khalsa, man AND woman need to take Amrit... Sant Ji says it in the original video.

I'm asking this question to savinderpal veer Ji. In my opinion both genders are allowed to take Amrit.

[savinderpalsingh]

puratan bibiyan were dharmi, didnt drink smoke no nothing and were sharadhawan

nowdays we all know the picture.

its important now days to take amrit.

thats why kirpan da amrit is given at hazur sahib to all maiyan , they all get gurmantar and naam from panj pyaare .

[Singh123456777]

Khanda da Amrit is too much for a bibi to handle! Only a man can handle it. There were never any strong bibi's like mata bhag kaur etc. Those were just myths. If a bibi took hands da Amrit she would go insane!

Sarcasm aside there is no point in Kirpan da Amrit whatsoever. My guru would not discriminate with women. The first guru onwards have been giving rights to women and all of a sudden guru gobind Singh Ji would not allow women to take Amrit? I find this unbelievable!!! Mata bhag kaur was guru gobind Singh Ji's bodyguard. Do you think she never took Amrit?

[Singh123456777]

I have read that mata gujar kaur took khanda da Amrit in 1699 along with guru Ji's wife's. I don't know if it was from Suraj Prakash or some other Granth so don't quote me on it .

[savinderpalsingh]

what i meant was bibiyan are too malesh now, so they are given amrit , as they cant have full rehat as some singhs might be able to do so, do to physical differences thats why kirpan da amrit . not because they cant handle, i never said that .

as i said, mata bhag kaur was a name given latter, her real name is mai bhago

i am still researching on this, have asked some singh to ask baba maan singh ji gurunanak dal jathedar,

The practice of naming Mata Sahib Devan as ‘Sahib Kaur’ was started by Singh Sabha scholars such as Bhai Kahan Singh ji Nabha about 100 years ago retrospectively. He writes Mata Sahib Devan as ‘Sahib Kaur’ in his Mahan Kosh.

Now the Sikhs are trying to force ending ‘Kaur’ for many other sikh females retrospectively because of wishful thinking rather than any historical evidence. For instance, Mata Gujri ji’s name is written by some as Mata Gujjar Kaur.

It does not mean that there did not exist any females with Kaur surname in Sikh history prior to 1699. Roop Kaur was a daughter of Guru Har Rai Sahib ji and is found thus named in documents even before 1699.

but as stated in earlier posts it might be a status thing .

even my grandmaa agree's she is 90+ and she said previously women never took amrit , they never gave amrit to women .

particularly book entitled 'Hukamname' edited by the respected Sikh historian Ganda Singh ji, published by Panjabi University Patiala in 1999. If you look at the hukamanamas 74, 75, 77, 78, and 81 to 85 (photocopies of original writing, partly written by Mata Sahib Devi ji, given there one can see and read)these were written when tenth Guruji were not present in physical form, surely after 1699 these hukamnamas mention Mata Sahib Devan ji's name as Mata Sahib Devi. This is the physical solid proof and earliest proof that Mata Sahib Devan ji's name was Mata Sahib Devi ji not Mata Sahib Kaur. Honest historians would not accept any book written later during nineteenth or twentieth century retrospectively calling her Mata Sahib Kaur. That would be the subjective opinion of the writers not objective truth. Let us not distort history in the presence of objective evidence. Only other explanation could be that in those days females were not given the surname 'Kaur' but were free to have or retain earlier surnames 'Devi' as in the case of Mata Sahib Devan or 'Baee' as in the case of bibi 'Seeto Baee' the first wife of Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh ji.'Sahib Devan' is the usual name for Mata ji used by Sikhs over the centuries out of love for Mata Sahib Devi ji and the Gurdwaras and places associated with her at Hazoor Sahib have been till recently known as Mata Sahib Devan da Gurdwara not Mata Sahib Kaur da Grudwara.

British writers in their journal dated Jan- June 1820 described "Ceremony of becoming a Sikh" and it states, "Women are made sikhs in the same manner as men the only difference in the form is that when the nectar is prepared for women it is stirred with the back instead of the edge of the knife."
however we can see that britishers followed gorgian calender
and we follow bikrami callender which has huge difference in years

http://www.indianetzone.com/37/baba_ram_singh_founder_namdharis.htm

Edited November 14, 2014 by savinderpalsingh

[Singh123456777]

In my opinion when the nihangs had to escape persecution and gave the gurdwaras to the Hindu mahants that is when the malicious things crept into the panth cause there were no real chardi kala gursikhs left to implement Sikhism to its fullest. In my opinion that is why our grandmothers where not asked to take Amrit cause the British and Hindus wanted to weaken the panth. My great grandmother had taken Amrit. This was before the Singh sabhia's I believe. Also my grandmother took khanda da Amrit at hazur sahib in 1980 not Kirpan the Amrit. My brother in law's cousin sister took khandey da Amrit from hazur sahib last year. They did not take Kirpan da Amrit.

In my opinion guru Ji 100% guarantee that he gave his wives, mothers etc Amrit. I guarantee it. If I get far sham of guru Ji I will ask him and I guarantee he would say yes. Why do I have such firm belief? Because my guru was an equal fair guru who did not discriminate.

In the end you have your opinions and I have mine but we are still brothers

[savinderpalsingh]

interesting , in 2012 i belive they were giving kirpan da amrit, i dont know anything new . i will call and ask the sewadar there today .

i am just trying to know the real fact and evidence on what happened and what is supposed to be . rather then believing what we are spoon fed by new jatha and committees

[starchpagg47]

No.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ|ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ| |

[karma]

But we hindus don't have panj piares so no need to attack us.

Edited November 15, 2014 by karma

[Guest]

what i meant was bibiyan are too malesh now, so they are given amrit , as they cant have full rehat as some singhs might be able to do so, do to physical differences thats why kirpan da amrit . not because they cant handle, i never said that .

Thats pretty bold outrageous statement, its like saying all singhs now days are bunch of cry baby fuddus who lack any juice in their balls to do anything but whine all day on internet board. On many level now days amount of cry baby fuddus singhs are far more greater than bibyan who are malesh.