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shaheediyan

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Recent Sikh and Jewish history is full of examples of what happens when people choose to bury their heads in the sands to real threats.

Jannat and Shaheediyan. Your comments totally lack any real life prudency. Well done. Sikhs weren't instructed to carry shasters to combat internal vices. I hope you know that.

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"Sikhs weren't instructed to carry shasters to combat internal vices. I hope you know that"

Lol, yes I do. Thats a fair point, if every Singh knew how to fight, then they wouldn't be so paranoid and scared, flooding the forums with hate so that they can arouse the sentiments of those that can fight, aquiting themselves of the duty and help them to sleep at night knowing the world is now apparently a safer place. But what you need to remember is tht in order to apply bibek to the outside world, we must be winning the yudh inside, otherwise we end up making dividing humanity into a good and bad pie chart as can be seen here - that is something idiots like Bush have been doing for millenia, its not an inteligent or spiritual mindset - which is essential for a Knight of God.

Yes, learn Yudh Vidya, learn how to use your hands, kara and as a last resort kirpan (and get a proper kirpan/kard whatever, whilst you're at it) - but also learn raj niti and read history from all perspectives, and realsie that 'evil' exists amongst all denominations - you should be prepared to fight it in whatever form it appears, not delude yourself that one form is pure and another is evil - that is real naivety, and will simply lead to you becoming a paranoid football fan.

Where small or large groups with ill intent exist, use intelligence and diplomacy to deal with them, if it doesn't work, then remain tyar bar tyar, but don't let it take over your life and don't stereotype a whole people as its only your internal progression that will loose out.

We are living in a peaceful country, no matter what you think, compared to most countires out there. Yes there are some racial/religious tensions which exist amongst the chav (uneducated sections) of all denominations, but they hardly represent their entire people, only an idiot and someone with an Nazi mentality would think they do.

If and when a warlike situation arises, things change. Our greatest weakness is that as a Panth we are disunited - without unification - all these threads are a waste of time. Finding a group of people to blame for own inadequecies - be then physical, intelligent or spiritual - is hardly a way to unite a group - only sat is the real foundation to unite a group - we need to all have common goals and practices - which should most importantly include Sikhi at physical, intelligent or spiritual levels.

Edited by shaheediyan
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No wonder we lose all the time if we follow shaheediyan's views. Can you imagine the sikhs at Mudki looking at one another and asking 'How's it going with the five evils? Yeah, I'm over most of them,' ? It is not about being paranoid or scared, it's to do with numbers and brotherhood. If your friend was on drugs would you just leave them to it? No of course not. I see stupidity among sikhs and i dont like it, so i try to find ways of changing that. Sikhs face threats nowadays that cant be combated by 'one man armies' or prostrating in front of pictures of Sant Bhindranwale Ji/Kharkhoos in their bedrooms like some of the youth do. If you dont want to hear this then fine, I am quite content to look after myself and leave the rest of you to wallow in ignorance.

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I guess what we can learn from this is that there are some Sikhs who understand the practical application of vigilence and prudency in terms of potential threats and seek practical steps to address this, whilst others will find one reason or another to shirk this. The latter vastly outnumber the former, but perhaps it has always been this way.

This has nothing to do with fear or paranoia but a realistic understanding of what transpires in the world and what is going on in your immediate environment. My own personal assessment is that the UK is in a very strange place right now with the emergence of an increasingly popular right wing and the existence of many insular and homegrown communities with aggresive attitudes towards other races/religions.

You can see an ample example of what happens when the Sikh community loses their 'anakh' en masse with Ford Capri, who feels compelled to deal with the BNP and the UAF in finding saviours. Unless SIkhs get their own act right, I imagine we have more of these characters.

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No wonder we lose all the time if we follow shaheediyan's views. Can you imagine the sikhs at Mudki looking at one another and asking 'How's it going with the five evils? Yeah, I'm over most of them,' ?

Both are right. Saint soldier fights on both the fronts. On one side it is Naam Simran, other side needs Sri Sahib. Sikhs at Mudki should have asked themselves this question. Winning over these five evils is prerequisite for becoming perfect Saint Soldier Khalsa. Somehow they became more soldiers and less saints. If every Khalsa was like Sham Singh Attari, results would have been different.

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"and the existence of many insular and homegrown communities with aggresive attitudes towards other races/religions."

Which has amply been demonstrated on this forum time and time again with the onslaught generalisation of all the Muslim community and even the 'Whitey' a phrase which members here love to use when propogating their western conspiracy theories.

In all the time you people have been ranting on about paki this, whitey that, I have not heard you suggest one constructive suggestion in tackling what are issues concenring idiot minority groups.

So how about an 'action plan', 'pin-pointing the actual issue and its cause and then providing a constructive solution..?

You can team up with HSD, double your chance of success.

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Both are right. Saint soldier fights on both the fronts. On one side it is Naam Simran, other side needs Sri Sahib. Sikhs at Mudki should have asked themselves this question. Winning over these five evils is prerequisite for becoming perfect Saint Soldier Khalsa. Somehow they became more soldiers and less saints. If every Khalsa was like Sham Singh Attari, results would have been different.

Lol, yes, but at the beginning of the battle the five evils would have been towards the back of their mind whereas remembering the tactics of the day would have been towards the forefront. Fighting the five evils is not a public battle to show in front of others and used to defend cowardice or ignorance. As for Mudki, the main reason we 'lost' is because we charged the british line too early, rather than wearing them down in a firefight first and charging when they broke ranks.

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Which has amply been demonstrated on this forum time and time again with the onslaught generalisation of all the Muslim community and even the 'Whitey' a phrase which members here love to use when propogating their western conspiracy theories.

In all the time you people have been ranting on about paki this, whitey that, I have not heard you suggest one constructive suggestion in tackling what are issues concenring idiot minority groups.

I dont have a problem with muslims or whites on a one-to-one level. If i did i would be in the completely wrong country. But get a lot of them together and they develop mentalities which are self serving and detrimental to those who arent like them. Some sikhs walk around in a daze as if they can earn enough money or just suck up to everyone, and then they will be fine. Wrong attitude. But if being told this is so offensive and anti-sikhi, well fine then.

Recent Sikh and Jewish history is full of examples of what happens when people choose to bury their heads in the sands to real threats.

It is almost funny how many sikhs nowadays are like those jews in the holocaust movies who prattle on with their stupid logic right up until being locked in the gas chamber.

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Which has amply been demonstrated on this forum time and time again with the onslaught generalisation of all the Muslim community and even the 'Whitey' a phrase which members here love to use when propogating their western conspiracy theories.

How is this any different to our nihang forefathers referring to Afghans as gilje (vultures) or whites as feringhees? Be honest, the real issue is you taking on the Anglo middle class liberati mindset to an extreme. You seem to be projecting this as Sikh thought now.

Fighting the five evils is not a public battle to show in front of others and used to defend cowardice or ignorance.

Nail hit squarely on head.

The greater lesson to be learnt perhaps is that some, even a majority will find excuses for cowadice or inertia. Nothing will change these people, so once identified, they should be left alone. Otherwise one engages in a futile exercise trying to explain things to them. We have good examples of that here.

No Sikh could deny the importance of fighting the 5 vices but to hide behind this to justify inaction on the temporal plane is wrong.

Edited by dalsingh101
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As for Mudki, the main reason we 'lost' is because we charged the british line too early, rather than wearing them down in a firefight first and charging when they broke ranks.

I think poor leadership played a big role. Too many of those in positions of authority put their own financial needs or kursees before the wider needs of the nation. This lack of zeal or spirit made them susceptible too selfish side deals that compromised everything achieved on a greater scale but preserved their comfort.

Sound familiar?

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HSD, you seem to have an extremely shallow understanding of the workings of the 5 vaikaar, especially in military situations - control of the 5 is what has created the greatest soldiers known in history, those who put their 5 aside and gladly sacrificed their all for dharma.

Anyone can become a psychotic serial killer, enjoying the taste of blood and pain in the face of the enemy, but only he who has control of his mind, can exercise his duty efficiently on the battlefield but not loose his humanity.

How you expect Sikhs to behave I guess:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/6/newsid_3712000/3712777.stm

And how Sikhs, particularly Nihang Singhs, have behaved:

http://www.nihangsingh.org/Tying%20Bonds%20of%20Unity.html

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Shaheediyan,

One could easily answer your question with the fact that the Khalsa converted the Mastgarh Mosque in Shahabad Markanda in Haryana into a Gurdwara in the 1780s and it has remained a Gurdwara since then. Will you be joining in with other Nihangs to campaign to return the Mosque back to the Muslims? Weren't those Khalsas worse than the Hindus as they were converting a Mosque which had always been a Mosque whilst the Hindus were destroying a Mosque built on a Hindu Mandir? How about the fact that the Sikhs used the Badshahi Mosque as a stable during the times of Maharaja Ranjit Singh or even the fact that the Azaan was banned in the Sikh areas of Punjab until the British allowed it after their annexation of Punjab? Not quite the way that Sikhs should have acted according to you. Those Sikhs lived in the real world and not your namby pamby, bleeding heart liberal 'let's not do anything until we are murdered in our beds' mentality that you espouse. I agree with Dalsingh101 and HSD, Sikh behaviour now is like the Jews before the holocaust. They also trusted that their neighbours would never succuumb to the Nazi ideology but the Nazis could never have achieved the success they had with the holocaust without the assistance of the common populace both in Germany and in places like Poland, the Baltic states as well as Ukraine. You seem to be living in a cloud cuckoo land if you think that just because a few of your Muslim friends might act all civil towards you that they don't harbour the intention to either convert you, kill you or make you into a dhimmi cash cow. No nation, community or group can be entirely evil but an ideology can be and such an ideology is Islam. Our ancestors until recent times knew how to deal with Islam and contary to your link of handing back a Mosque, they dealt in the same way that Muslims dealt with them. I am sure that the Sikhs prior to March 1947 also thought what great guys their Muslim friends were and how none of them would harbour any evil intents towards them. Sikhs had to quickly change these suicidal thoughts or face annihilation. What you might see as fanaticism, extremism or wahabism is the default position of Islam. When Sikhs as well as other non-Muslims realise this then they will have taken the first step in dealing with the threat that Islam poses to the rest of humanity.

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HSD, you seem to have an extremely shallow understanding of the workings of the 5 vaikaar, especially in military situations - control of the 5 is what has created the greatest soldiers known in history, those who put their 5 aside and gladly sacrificed their all for dharma.

Greatest soldiers know in history? A little stretch for our team but this is another thing. We are not homogeneous. Not all sikhs are the same. If you think the nihangs and akalis of old were all motivated or joined up by one thing, then you are way off the mark. We were a nation with a country, like it or not. That means we had people from all parts of the social scale in our people. Did you know that Lahore was known as one place that could rival London for its prostitute trade? Some of the pimps were probably 'sikhs', and so may have a fair few of the prostitutes. Did the sikh army refuse to fight the afghans/chinese/brit-hindustanis because of this? No. Help me a little here, I still dont understand what your points have to do with the BNP. If you are trying to say there is bad everywhere, I agree. Doesnt change the fact they are up to no good.

Let me give you an analogy. Imagine you see a car stuck in a rail crossing. Both barriers have gone down, and the car cant get out. You see that the car has one person in it, who happens to be quite fat. As he opens the car door to get out, would you jump the barrier to slam the door shut in his face and say 'Lose weight first, that's what will really kill you!'? And then stand there to keep the door shut whilst the train approaches to kill you both? I really hope not.

Anyone can become a psychotic serial killer, enjoying the taste of blood and pain in the face of the enemy, but only he who has control of his mind, can exercise his duty efficiently on the battlefield but not loose his humanity.

Many accounts of sikhs in wars have been flattering. Many others have not been. What of those sikhs who werent? During the anglo-sikh wars, there were many accounts of young sikh officers challenging british officers to duels between battles. Sikhs won pretty much all of the time, and on many occasions the soldiers under the british officer's command would shoot the sikh officer out of hand and laugh. Is it any wonder that the average sikh soldier refused to take prisoners during the ensuing battle? According to you, we should shun our ancestors because they are 'bad'. Well I am not prepared to do that. They fought for their nation, they fought for us. We would not be here if it weren't for them, 'good' or 'bad'.

Anyway, a soldier is a soldier. I doubt many nihangs could mix it up with a bunch of american marines.

How you expect Sikhs to behave I guess:

http://news.bbc.co.u...000/3712777.stm

Of course I do. You understand me so well. Let's go burn down a church. Not.

And how Sikhs, particularly Nihang Singhs, have behaved:

http://www.nihangsin...of%20Unity.html

Nihangs? Do you have a time machine which you used to personally interview each one? If not then I think it's pretty naive to stereotype (yes, there is such a thing as a positively skewed stereotype).

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I agree with Dalsingh101 and HSD, Sikh behaviour now is like the Jews before the holocaust"

An inversion of the truth, Sikh behaviour is like the Nazi's whose propoganda led the mass of german people to believe in the the 'threat' of evil jews and as tony says 'threat that Islam?jews pose to the rest of humanity.' The Nazis excelled in creating mass fear of some enemy-jews- in order to manipulate the masses, some Sikhs have co-opted the establishment that uses a continuation of Nazi principles to subdue the masses through psychologically exploiting and exploding/enlarging racial and cultural tensions, to keep people from questioning the highly skewed corrupt centres of power. Dalsingh tony et al provide protection to the corrupt centers of power in western society by engaging in discourse that is set and has finite borders. These borders are set so effectively by the societal conditions as to create an illusion of doing something and change, whereas in fact the existing structure becomes more entrenched. It is necessessary to think in a completely different way, Sikhs project the way of thinking that they are part of in western society onto sikh history and the history becomes a handmaiden to the dominant forms of thought that are moulded by western centres of power. Moulded in such a way as to reduce any threat to themselves(the centres of power). Sikhs are thus neutralised and devoid of any insurgency or any real threat, they are 'got' by the dominant forms of thought, inflitrated by western thinking, tony is a classic example of someone who repeatedly spews out establishment thought, he is a representative of the status quo. I prefer to follow the example of Guru Gobind Singh and rebel agaianst the established corrupt system, but in these times maya has become very tricky, and by rebelling you may be conforming.

Edited by Mekhane'ch Jannat
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Jannat

You offer the conversely untenable thesis i.e. instead of affiliating with the BNP types to form a force against Islamic fascism cosy up to the latter in the battle against white supremacism......

Your vision of Islam is tainted through rose coloured glasses. That is not to say that every last Muslim individual is a bad person but as a corporate entity it is as bad, if not worse, for Sikhi than the western centres of powers you mention.

The only sensible and rational position for Sikhs today is to stay aloof from both of these visions for society.

Sikhism has previously been described as a third path (tisra panth) in the face of two competing ideologies. I see nothing different now. Just that one of those ideologies has changed for those of us who have become based in the west for whatever reason. Whilst I agree that many Sikhs have become enmeshed into the western worldview, as have many Muslims and that much work needs to be done to raise the consciousness of Sikhs but despite that, please credit some of us with sufficient intellectual faculties to see through the smoke. What you need to do is stop trying to somehow convince those Singhs that are independent minded that Islam is some noble alternative to the decadent/conniving west.

Some of us can see things for what they really are.

Better than jumping on another's bandwagon we (Sikhs) are better off focusing on developing our own wagon. That is the legacy and example left by our forefathers.

Edited by dalsingh101
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I could not care about Islam. The division that you have created between Islam and white supremacists, is to me, artificial. They are both constructs used by the centres of power to obscure reality. Paradoxically many REAL white supremacy groups in America actually follow the same line against western democracies that Islamic fundamentalists follow. The point is although these two groups are on opposite ends, they are on the margins of society, this enables them to see into society somewhat impartially. This again comes back to self-observation and reflection, vichaar on where we as individuals stand and what forms of thought we are espousing. Only when we are free to an extent of societal conditioning can we begin to see impartially what it is that has conditioned us. But as Sikhs identify themselves with the prevalent societal conditions, with 'fitting in' (e.g. dave singh etc.) then any talk only enmeshes us further in this situation. I am not saying instead of being with Goray like Dave singh lets go with muslims and wage war against the west, this is merely exchanging one form of slavery for another. I am espousing freedom from any ideaological slavery except to the Guru.

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I agree with MJ, anyone who has read Jewish history (by their own records) knows that David’s and Moses’s conquests were all but peaceful, I would even say it put ‘examples’ of Islamic domination to shame.

Is the majority of the Jewish population really representative of its glorious Warrior ancestry, I think not, same goes for Muslim and for Sikhs. Yet we all have the small Nazi minority and Jewish majority in our clans.

“The only sensible and rational position for Sikhs today is to stay aloof from both of these visions for society.”

I totally agree, and to add, we should not just stay aloof, but fight all forms of true terrorism and fundamentalism that inhabits our country. All I am saying is don’t be stupid and stereotype all Muslims or all British Whites in to one group – if you want to highlight dangers, then target those specific small, unrepresentative movements – which by all means, must not be allowed to gain power, because if they do, then any populace is susceptible to a Nazi style propaganda machine.

Re your comments on Nihangs/Singhs, yes, I well aware that there was not an angelic panth – but at the same time I condemn crimes committed against humanity, even if they were committed by our folk – as in 1947.

The warriors I talk about are not just Sikhs, but worldwide, the epitome of correct conduct in war – those who help dharma close to their heart – warriors created through simran. I speak of the ideal, yes, because that is what Guru teaches – I am not ignorant as to the reality, all we can hope is that if and when the time comes, we use that ‘opportunity’ to be knights of God, rather than slaves of our ego.

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This again comes back to self-observation and reflection, vichaar on where we as individuals stand and what forms of thought we are espousing. Only when we are free to an extent of societal conditioning can we begin to see impartially what it is that has conditioned us.

Again you need to grasp that some of us are not conditioned and can see clearly - or as clear as one could being within a framework. If someone sees negativity in Islam this doesn't neccesarily mean that these views were implanted by a western conditioning machine. It may well be a genuine independent observation. Conversely, recognition that the west itself has its own flaws isn't something that can only take place from 'outside'.

The negative aspects of both of these ideologies that effect and can affect Sikhs needs combating. If this is done it will take more than hippies, that much you do not grasp. If this was to be attempted, it would take people with iron wills and both physical and mental strength. The other thing is that we shouldn't be in any business to try and destroy any panth/way of life. Just ensuring our own is in a position to deter and repulse interference from outside. Again, you need strength, character, leadership qualities and clarity of vision for this - not the wishy washy idealism demonstrated by some here - it just wont cut it.

Someone once said to me, an important part of knowing who you are is knowing what you are not.

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Shaheediyan,

Your comment about King David and Moses is a standard Islamic response when confronted by the atrocities committed by 'prophet' Mohammed and Muslims in general. The difference is that no Jew regards the way in which the Jewish prophets acted as behaviour which needs to be emulated by all Jews today. The atrocities committed by Mohammed are looked upon as the actions of an ideal Muslim and ones that all Muslims should aspire to. This is the difference but for one who is mired in moral equivalence it is difficult to see the difference.

MJ

You are a typical conspiracy theorist, you probably believe in Bohemian Grove and all that bukwas. Yes the freemasons and the Jews are out to get you and you best log off quickly otherwise they and their minions will trace your location. 'Centres of Power' blah blah blah..what a load of bull!

Dalsingh101

I agree with your point that Sikhs have to develop their own focus and not be tied to one or other of the warring parties, but I believe that in the end if no mainstream political party takes the bull by the horns..ie Islamic fanaticism then either the Muslims will become emboldened and create their own Muslim areas from where they will drive out the non-Muslims or a facist party will come to power and they will want to deal with the problem of Islam in their midst. In either case a point will come when Sikhs will have to decide which party to side with. No doubt there will be a few dhimmi Sikhs who will think that siding with Muslims will show everyone who tolerant Sikhs are and that they are living up to the ideals of the Gurus by taking a stand against the 'racism' of the whites but I think the vast majority of Sikhs will side with the non-Muslim population. There is a third option which might occur which is that one of the major parties, the most likely of which is probably the Tories might grow some balls and tell the Muslims to either shape up or ship out. This would be the best option for Sikhs and other non-Muslims.

The problem with the British is that they have forgotten all the double dealing and divide and rule policies that worked so well for them during the British Raj. One of the things that they have tried which has failed miserably is way in which they have given special status to Muslims and are plying money into Muslim organisations like there's no tomorrow. This does mirror the behaviour that they showed to a lesser degree when after 1857 they treated the Sikhs differently to the way they treated the non-Sikhs. But unfortunately for them Muslims will always bite the hand that feeds them and slowly but surely the next UK government will learn the lesson of this government's failure.

Call me a pessimist but the increase in the Muslim population in the country will only create more and more problems for this country. Look at any state around the world and if the Muslims do not have or have been demanding special status then that state unless it quitely surrenders is facing a Muslim uprising. There are Muslim no go areas in most European cities and this is the shape of things to come. Even in countries which do not have a history of colonising Muslim countries such as Sweden and Norway are facing a Muslim problem. Muslims like to come up with excuses like Iraq, Afghanistan and even Israel but the plain fact is that even of these issues did not exist, Muslims would have come up with another excuse to disrupt the peace of this country and the rest of Europe.

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Paradoxically many REAL white supremacy groups in America actually follow the same line against western democracies that Islamic fundamentalists follow

Not very paradoxical, unless of course you are basing your statement on the idea that all western democracies are the same. Which is wrong.

The point is although these two groups are on opposite ends, they are on the margins of society, this enables them to see into society somewhat impartially.

'Somewhat impartially'?! More like they see it in a warped, retarded and highly ignorant way.

This again comes back to self-observation and reflection, vichaar on where we as individuals stand and what forms of thought we are espousing. Only when we are free to an extent of societal conditioning can we begin to see impartially what it is that has conditioned us. But as Sikhs identify themselves with the prevalent societal conditions, with 'fitting in' (e.g. dave singh etc.) then any talk only enmeshes us further in this situation. I am not saying instead of being with Goray like Dave singh lets go with muslims and wage war against the west, this is merely exchanging one form of slavery for another. I am espousing freedom from any ideaological slavery except to the Guru.

A fair point. But what about the fact that many sikhs will follow the path to self-realisation and end up at different destinations? We were not all meant to be the same.

An inversion of the truth, Sikh behaviour is like the Nazi's whose propoganda led the mass of german people to believe in the the 'threat' of evil jews and as tony says 'threat that Islam?

So tony is speaking for all sikhs then? You cant say all muslims and whites are not bad, only to go on and then slam sikhs with one stroke.

. Dalsingh tony et al provide protection to the corrupt centers of power in western society by engaging in discourse that is set and has finite borders.

So now we are helping the likes of the BNP? Blimey.

These borders are set so effectively by the societal conditions as to create an illusion of doing something and change, whereas in fact the existing structure becomes more entrenched. It is necessessary to think in a completely different way, Sikhs project the way of thinking that they are part of in western society onto sikh history and the history becomes a handmaiden to the dominant forms of thought that are moulded by western centres of power. Moulded in such a way as to reduce any threat to themselves(the centres of power). Sikhs are thus neutralised and devoid of any insurgency or any real threat, they are 'got' by the dominant forms of thought, inflitrated by western thinking, tony is a classic example of someone who repeatedly spews out establishment thought, he is a representative of the status quo. I prefer to follow the example of Guru Gobind Singh and rebel agaianst the established corrupt system, but in these times maya has become very tricky, and by rebelling you may be conforming.

Lol. You've got it the wrong way round.

I agree with MJ, anyone who has read Jewish history (by their own records) knows that David’s and Moses’s conquests were all but peaceful, I would even say it put ‘examples’ of Islamic domination to shame.

Is the majority of the Jewish population really representative of its glorious Warrior ancestry, I think not, same goes for Muslim and for Sikhs. Yet we all have the small Nazi minority and Jewish majority in our clans.

The point about the jews went completely over your head.

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"The difference is that no Jew regards the way in which the Jewish prophets acted as behaviour which needs to be emulated by all Jews today. The atrocities committed by Mohammed are looked upon as the actions of an ideal Muslim and ones that all Muslims should aspire to. This is the difference but for one who is mired in moral equivalence it is difficult to see the difference."

Lol, and the ultra orthodox nutters that illegally occupy the West Bank, and are continuing to expand into Palestinian territory, even completely ignoring their big brother, the US, who wish them to reverse their trend...

Your last comment is total and utter nonsense. There are around 1.7 billion Muslims in this world, over 1 million in the UK, if they were obsessed with reinacting 1600 year old history, the world would be a very different place, countries like Dubai, Egypt, Malaysia, Turkey, Morroco etc would not be No 1 holiday destinations for the 'Kaffirs'.

I don't deny there are pathetic Wahabi elements that think they own the rights to everything (and they must be countered esp in the west), but most Sunni, and all Sufi/Shia Muslims I have met, hate these elements, esp the Sunni's who are positively depressed by them as they are stereoyped because of it, but have their hands tied through fear. The Shia and Sufi Muslims despise them and are totally different people in my 1st hand experience. They look upon the wahhabi as cavemen.

As I said, if one were to use history as a basis to condemn the mindset of a whole people, then let he who has not sinned cast the 1st stone, even Sikhs by their own records have committed attrocities i.e. Banda Bahadur (simply using this as an example outsiders would and do refer to).

Fact remains, most Muslims are peaceful, God fearing and hard working people. Having worked in the NHS and Central Govt in London, I can recount how many honest, Namazi, polite, humble and compassionate Muslims I met - living in a strong Muslim population town in London, I can only go by own experience regarding their successful intergration - down to the point that our local Labour MP is a highly respected and popular/likable Muslim.

I say again, learn to use bibek, if you are going to identify a threat, then do exactly that, don't stupidly create one out of nothing by condeming 1/4 of mankind!

Ultimately our Guru Sahiban and their cordial relations with different Muslims - Mughal Emporers, their friends, their sangat, their Dhadis, their Rababis, the many people they accepted help from etcetera will always serve as a token of the correct Sikh mindset - as will Gurbani which states their is no difference between the Bed and Quran, Masjid and Mandhir and Allah and Ram. Not to mention the many Muslim devotees Guru Nanak gained during his udasi to the West.

If our Gurus saw Muslims as inheritantly evil, the above would never have happened - 6th Master would not have built a Masjid (which opposes the rare actions of those destroyed them). Same goes for Hindus and Snaatn Dharma, Guru Sahib, at he behest of his Hindu followers, would not have built Hanuman Mandhir in Amritsar - which preserves Guru Sahibs hath likhi pothi to this day.

We today are no different from the Jews or Nazis - we either want to pretend that no problems exist with anyone (I don't fall into that category believe it or not) or we want to chuck a noose around the neck of every other football club.

The ideal lies in a fine balance - being able to be compassionate enough to judge people as individuals based on their actions, and identifying where the malignant tumors exist in any society.

I'm done with going around in cirles, goodnight.

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Shaheediyan,

Its not a surprise to see you keep on harping on about the Guru Ki Maseet and now you've brought out the Guru Ka Hanuman Mandir! Did the Gurus also build a synagogue or perhaps even a Girjaghar for the Christians? The Guru Ki Maseet has no veracity and it was discussed in detail before but for people desperate to prove that the Gurus thought of Islam as a valid religious belief they have to keep on harping about it. If the Gurus built a Hanuman temple then what of all the Gurbani verses that state that idol worshippers are fools and deluded? Weren't the Gurus contributing to the idol worshippers delusion by building a Hanuman Mandir? Let me save you the trouble of bringing up the Shaheedi of Guru Tegh Bahadur as I know you inevitably will, the Guru's sacrifice was for the right of others to worship as they wish, the Guru did not actively endorse their beliefs or contribute money and resources to assist in their beliefs.

The cordial relations that the Gurus had with Muslims were with Muslims who were at the fringes of Islam. The Sufis who claim that their traditions goe back to Mohammed yet their is very little evidence for it. Emperor Akbar who was the Mughal emperor who had the best relations with the Gurus is seen as an apostate by the majority of Muslims. The strict measures taken by subsequent emperors against both Hindus and Sikhs is seen by Muslims as a renewal of Islam. Incidentally when Aurangzeb gave his infamous order to destroy the places of worship of non-Muslims and replace these with Mosques, a Gurdwara near Sirhind was destroyed by the Mughal governor and a Mosque built over it. The Sikhs attacked the Mosque, destroyed it and killed the Imam. Now in your rose tinted world weren't these Sikhs in the wrong as they were destroying a religious place of a valid religious belief? Weren't they showing disrespect to Islam, weren't the Muslims in their time honoured fashion going to be outraged?

Let me set you a task, do you think you can take 12 off Sikhs from a poor background in Punjab, indoctrine them by using the Guru Granth Sahib as well as sakhis and katha and then let them loose on a city with AK47s and instruct them to murder all the people that they see as well as torture and sexually abuse a Jewish couple (let's in this case say a Muslim couple) and when they phone you for instructions you can further convince them to keep on killing using verses from Guru Granth Sahib? Can you do that, if it sounds difficult and I would venture impossible then that was exactly what was done with the Mumbai attackers. The fact that 1.7 Billion Muslims do not go out and attack their kaffir neighbours is that most are Muslims in name only. If they can read the Quran then they learnt it by rote and cannot understand the Arabic. They require a local Imam to tell them what to do in this and that situation. How many stones they need to wipe their backsides after a visit to the loo, what prayer to say when going to the bog to save themselves from the devil that resides in the toilet! etc. The vast majority are just about able to make ends meet. But the potential for Islam to turn them into murderous drones in still there.

As for Banda Singh Bahadur, who is seen as a heretic by Nihangs in India and the neo-Nihang teenagers in the West, most of the atrocities attributed to him and from Muslim writers who weren't in the least concerned about the truth of their claims. The ironic thing is that had Banda Singh been a Muslim and done all the atrocities that the Muslim writers accuse him off and his victims had been non-Muslims then these same writers would be proclaiming his acts as a victory of Islam and painting him as a Mujahid! This further shows the hypocrisy of Islam.

Edited by tonyhp32
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As I said, I am done on this topic - I only want to respond to your terrorist mindset comment. I have met Singhs over the years, mostly in the form of reformed gyaanis, who got caught up in the madness of the 80s/90s, they feel blessed to be out of that life now. Any faith can turn fanatical, and it doesn't take anpar lok to commit attrocities, anyone who had experienced real pain at the hands of others can have their mind easily twisted, on religious or even political grounds. Good people - turned 'terrorists' (or freedom ighter depending on whose point of view you see it from) exist everywhere, Ireland and Spain being non-Muslim examples close to home.

Regarding your 'fringe' comment, all true believers exist on the fringes of any established Dharm, I strongly believe this holds true for Sikhi also, so your comment is no revelation - it doesn't do away with the fact that 'evil' is a seed that exists in all people, irrelevant of what religion you follow - Semetic as well Indic faiths, offer anyone following them the tools to achieve God realisation - if one chooses to focus on those aspects, and most Muslims at least focus on those aspects, if not realise/experience them, same being true for followers of most faiths.

Sikhs have also been made to commit horrid acts on religious grounds like blowing up Public marketplaces (well known incident), so please try and understand.

Your lack of respect/mockery for others beliefs, including long held traditions like Guru Jis Masjid and Mandhir, and the Nihang order etc is very saddening.

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I agree with your point that Sikhs have to develop their own focus and not be tied to one or other of the warring parties, but I believe that in the end if no mainstream political party takes the bull by the horns..ie Islamic fanaticism then either the Muslims will become emboldened and create their own Muslim areas from where they will drive out the non-Muslims or a facist party will come to power and they will want to deal with the problem of Islam in their midst.

I don't know about you but this already seems to have started from where I am standing. Whether it will grow or peter out is anyone's guess. One thing you seem to be ignoring are those white fascists who will use the 'Islam behana' as a cloak for their wider desire to attack non white people in general and brown folk in particular. Many, if not most of the current 'anti-Islam' brigade fall into this camp. They generally hate 'pakis' and in their usage of the word, that includes people like you and me.

Besides Muslims already have their areas now, I know because I grew up near one. I don't see an issue with this myself. I mean it isn't like whites don't have areas where they try and drive out and attack nonwhites. Why do you ignore that?

What really needs to happen, is that we need strong Sikh majority areas. This is harder than it seems as Sikhs frequently go into backward motion when they are in large groups! But I can clearly illustrate the benefit of this in strife by citing the example of what happened in Sikh minority villages and majority villages at partition.....think about it.

In either case a point will come when Sikhs will have to decide which party to side with.

Only if we are too weak to stand on our own. That is what needs to be addressed and discussed, not having to dance with one type of devil or another. Your (and others) talking as if the only option is join some side is the root of the problem to my mind.

No doubt there will be a few dhimmi Sikhs who will think that siding with Muslims will show everyone who tolerant Sikhs are and that they are living up to the ideals of the Gurus by taking a stand against the 'racism' of the whites but I think the vast majority of Sikhs will side with the non-Muslim population. There is a third option which might occur which is that one of the major parties, the most likely of which is probably the Tories might grow some balls and tell the Muslims to either shape up or ship out. This would be the best option for Sikhs and other non-Muslims.

I've seen what evil whitey is capable of in the past, I've also seen that side of sullay growing up around them. One is not better than the other in my eyes. Be honest, it isn't like whites don't go around interfering in Muslim lands/politics given a chance. It isn't like they themselves don't have the khoon of God knows how many sullah children/women on their hands. You talk like they are some angels. They're not. I like having a strong sullah section here in the UK because it keeps the other devils in check. The only issue in all this is that sadi quom has become bukray and the kurian are essentially gorian in their outlook. That makes it easy for them to be pulled or used and abused.

If we were crafty like the WASPS you mentioned below, what we would do is watch them, nay encourage (surreptitiously) them to kick off with each other to weaken themselves and make sure we are building our strength up in the meanwhile. That is exactly what they would do and have done with Sikhs and Afghans in the past. The difference between how we operate (i.e. naively and trustingly) and they do (slyly and maliciously) is something we need to grasp or forever be at the receiving end of some crafty strategy that gets our backs up.

The problem with the British is that they have forgotten all the double dealing and divide and rule policies that worked so well for them during the British Raj. One of the things that they have tried which has failed miserably is way in which they have given special status to Muslims and are plying money into Muslim organisations like there's no tomorrow.

Don't take this personally but reading this makes me question your sanity and intellect brother! It's not a 'problem' if they have forgotten their evil double dealing, dishonesty and hypocrisy it is a Godsend of the highest order! Did you forget how dearly this cost the Sikh people! See things clearly.

Call me a pessimist but the increase in the Muslim population in the country will only create more and more problems for this country. Look at any state around the world and if the Muslims do not have or have been demanding special status then that state unless it quitely surrenders is facing a Muslim uprising. There are Muslim no go areas in most European cities and this is the shape of things to come. Even in countries which do not have a history of colonising Muslim countries such as Sweden and Norway are facing a Muslim problem. Muslims like to come up with excuses like Iraq, Afghanistan and even Israel but the plain fact is that even of these issues did not exist, Muslims would have come up with another excuse to disrupt the peace of this country and the rest of Europe.

To paraphrase a great man. A lot of chickens are coming home to roost. Besides, tell me, how is this any different to what has been/or is being done in Austrailia, New Zealand, America and Canada amongst other places? You know just yesterday I was looking at some immigration paper about Canada and guess what I saw. Some new legislation that allows people with grandparents born in the UK, a quick route, preferential route over there. You know as well as I do that that was designed for the benefit of white people.

In any case what you have said above makes the case for Sikhs in the west uniting and having a vision for their future (independent of whitey or anyone else) even stronger. If we are to position ourselves as mere appendages to white society then we may well inevitably follow them down the toilet. But even more important than this, in my eyes, is the simple concept of a vibrant, dynamic, progressive and independent Sikh society. The most important place this starts is in our minds and as Jannat alludes to, this itself has become the prey of ideologies with clever colonising and expanding characteristics. From the way you talk sometimes brother, it seems like they have their hooks deeply in you?

Edited by dalsingh101
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Dalsingh101,

I don't think that it is possible in a general conflagration for Sikhs to remain aloof. This will not just apply to Sikhs but to other non-white communities. It would be unrealistic to think that Sikhs, Blacks, Chinese, Hindus and others will remain aloof in their own areas and rely on the Muslims and the Whites to respect their neutrality. Although the most likely impact of the increase in the Muslim problem will be a fascist reaction, it is still possible that an European type of right wing anti-Islam party (such as Geert Wilders one) could come about. I agree with your assessment about Sikhs wanting to move out of Sikh majority areas as soon as they get are able to. Some previously Sikh majority areas have been turned into Muslim slums in the last few decade although the slide has been stopped somewhat with the arrival of Sikh students and Freshies in the last few years. For a plan that you envisage it requires a concerted and determined action from a united leadership which unfortunately Sikhs do not have at the moment. Moving out to more affluent areas is not just a Sikh trait, all other communities have had this trait. The Jews once dominated many parts of East London but then moved to more affluent areas such as Golders Green. This I feel will also be the way Sikhs have been moving. Sikhs may become a minority in formerly Sikh areas but they might become a majority in an affluent area from where they will stay put.

My allusion to the British having forgotten their previous traits is based on how naively they splash money on Muslim communities and how they believe the 'Islam is peace' bukwas from their Muslim advisors and 'community leaders'. By divide and rule I did not mean divide the ethnic communites but divide Muslims amongst themselves. There are enough divsions in the Muslim community to ensure that they fight amongst themselves for decades before they even think of taking over the country but the British have forgotten their previous tactics and think that money will somehow tamper Muslim aggression.

Edited by tonyhp32
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