Abuse Of The Nihang Singh Bana

[chatanga1]

I dont think anubody here denies Nidar Singh skills, but we are digressing from the topic. Mr Landa, forgve me but it sounds like you hate the akj.

anyways, how would one qualify to wear this bana?

who would conduct the test?

what does one have to do to pass?

what if a cheater (akj'er etc)wears one, how do we get it off them?

i hope you will see that this topic is a non-starter. it will only induce bickering, and not have any practical or workable conclusion.

[MrLanda]

I dont think anubody here denies Nidar Singh skills, but we are digressing from the topic. Mr Landa, forgve me but it sounds like you hate the akj.

anyways, how would one qualify to wear this bana?

who would conduct the test?

what does one have to do to pass?

what if a cheater (akj'er etc)wears one, how do we get it off them?

i hope you will see that this topic is a non-starter. it will only induce bickering, and not have any practical or workable conclusion.

I dont hate them, i feel there are lost, i want to help. But they do to much beadbi of the puratan roop. People talk about being divided, it is because of the creation of the these pathetic orders we are divided, if sikhi was as it was we would not be arguing!! It is only after the britsh raj, the difference in maryda came about!!

To wear the bana of the nihang singh you have to be a nihang singh

There is no test, to be a nihang singh you have to administered into the Budha Dal, as in take amrit from them. This way you are follow puratan maryada, and are true to sikhi!!

If an akj wears the bana thats not his, firstly maharaj will sort them out after, like i said he gets vexed, and secondly you say to them, 'what the f*k are you doing'.

[jaikaara]

I agree Mr. Landa, the thing is, see if you turn rebellious, you can do what you want ..from not keeping kesh to wearing any Bana that suits your mood at that time.

There is a certain protocol followed and there is an unwritten understanding amongst us to follow the principles. We cannot just choose dress codes which we feel will make us 'look different'

A discipline is inculcated amongst us and we need to keept to it.

Tell me something, why did we get angry at the sacha sauda leader ? Did Guru Maharaj ever say that this is my way and only i will have the right , no one else will copy me ?

We still got angry " how dare he copy Guru Maharaj "

[ipledgeblue]

Radhasoamis and other Gurudoms do not believe in SGGSJ as being Satguru. They believe in Dehdhari Gurus. That is what separates them from the Khalsa Panth. When I say Panth, I do not mean those who believe in Dehdhari Gurus. They can believe what they want, that is no concearn of ours. But with us putting each other down on foolish issues rather than concentrating on our similarities we are not uniting to form a common front against external enemies.

What about people who want to follow maryada and beliefs of special "jatha" babas?

Agree with MrLanda.

People Like the AKJ, and some of the GNNSJ (sorry to say) have put the spanner in the works my putting their ore in and creating their own maryadas. I have also seen with some GNNSJ crew that if you have taken amrit, or are not an amrit dhari they tend to ave a bias view against you.

Hmm yes but at least GNSSJ aren;t fanatical like some of the AKJs I'v seen and heard. Fanatics are more of a threat and should be stood up against and the nindya they do against others. The more peaceful people aren't much of a threat, and I reckon GNNSJ probably fall into that category, they aren;t likely to shoot someone or blow up hindus or even create organisations like BK. (Not the restaurant lol)

[Mithar]

Singhs, where does it say in puraatan literature that wearing of Bana is the exclusive right of the Nihangs?

[chatanga1]

I dont hate them, i feel there are lost, i want to help. But they do to much beadbi of the puratan roop.

bro, if i keep saying this people are gonna say I hate nihangs or summat. But if you wanna start with the beadbi-wale then prob you wanna start a little closer to home.

[jvalasingh]

Let me start off by saying I have received amrit from Budha Dal and respect the traditions of the Nihangs and other sampradays, but this topic is absurd.

Honestly lets think what the difference is between a Nihang bana and a Taksali bana. You said they are different thats why Taksalis wear that bana. They both don't wear pjyama, they both wear dresses that come down past their waist. The only difference is that Taksalis have a different slit at the bottom of the dress, instead of having the middle open like Nihangs, theirs is closed to cover their kachera while sitting, which they do for extended periods of time. Only other different are the gathra holders on the shoulders and breast pockets, both of which came into style due to the British army uniform, they do not appear to be worn before the time of the British.

Like a member said on this board, go view old Rajputs and Mughals from that time period they all use to wear these types of dress, its called a Jamah. The style Nihangs wear now is a slighty modified jama.

If you read historical books like Gurpratap Suraj Prakash Granth you'll see that Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj wore many different types of bana, ranging from a blue warrior jama to the well known Sadhu/Nirmala bhagva style of robe.

If you read the old historical books they do not even mention what type of dress Singhs wore, it wasn't an issue many didn't even wear cloths. The main bana, or uniform, was simply a Dastar, Kamarkasa (extremely important), and Kachera. Nowadays if you look at most Nihangs they do not even know how to tie a kamarkasa properly to hold their shastars intact and secure without the use of a gathra.

Sure Nihangs can claim some things like the farla tradition, but going on a mission to de-robe any premi seems ludicrous. Will you do the same with the Adh Chand?

Instead of cussing the Akhand Keertani Jatha for wearing Bana and not respecting the Nihang traditions, maybe your initiative needs to go to the Nihangs, who claim to be great warriors but very few even spend time to practice their Shastar Vidiya. No group is without faults so if you claim to be in a group help fix those faults.

[jvalasingh]

Another thing to think of is, Did Akali Kaur Singh de-robe Bhai Randhir Singh (AKJ)? He must of know Bhai Sahib was against meat and Raagmala.

[Silence]

In what way are the 'nihangs' of the uk any different? do they live with a dal? do they wear bana every day? the answer is no. They are actually not much different from AKJ youth in practice, just a beliefs on a COUPLE of issues. Akjs go rainsabhais on weekends, nihangs read chandi di vaar. lol. But somehow they are more entitled to wear bana. Sure Dhan Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj is an Akali Nihang, but you forget that Maharaj is a KHALSA. And sure, some people apparently are part of jathas, but above all they are KHALSAs who have taken khande di pahul. Nothing will change these two facts. Guru Gobind Singh Ji is the father of the Khalsa and those who have taken Amrit are Khalsa, therefore ALL those who have recieved amrit are entitled to bana. Anyway, what kind of a nihang sits around ranting on a forum? You think you have done some mahan seva in writing an emotive essay? lol. Real seva, come and try and take someone like mine's dumalla off, hahaha, we'll see the result.

To add: its also disgusting that you would call your own brothers the same as radhaswamis and nirankaris. As they are Sikhs of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, you have just insulted Guru Ji. Actually those other groups believe in a human being as being the Satguroo, and do disrespect guru ji, and are doing so for their own motives. AKJ believes in Sahib Sri Satguroo Granth Sahib Ji Mahraj as the Satguroo alone! For goodness sake most of jatha as a whole doesn't even matha tek sant jis!!! On the issue of Sri Raagmala, yes its quite upsetting most of jatha don't believe, but they are doing so innocently and not for devious reasons. I know Guru Ji will do kirpa. I have heard many elders do believe, and Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji also did.

In terms of blamning akj for non raag keertan, its just plain naive. I agree wholeheartedly in the importance of Raag, however would you be so quick to throw your INSULTS at the great Sant mahapurash who have done keertan in non-raag? Non raag keertan was around before akj, its simply false to say otherwise. So if you have a problem with non-raag keertan, its simply unfair and ridiculous to target akj alone.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Silence

[chatanga1]

To add: its also disgusting that you would call your own brothers the same as radhaswamis and nirankaris. As they are Sikhs of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, you have just insulted Guru Ji.

i thing that is quite insulting thatyou say that. Guru Ji respected other faiths even those at odds with gurmat. Why did Guru Ji give his head for freedom owr worship? The fact that these people went form gurmat is not thier fault but the fault of sikh institutions which have become rotten.

[MrLanda]

Let me start off by saying I have received amrit from Budha Dal and respect the traditions of the Nihangs and other sampradays, but this topic is absurd.

Honestly lets think what the difference is between a Nihang bana and a Taksali bana. You said they are different thats why Taksalis wear that bana. They both don't wear pjyama, they both wear dresses that come down past their waist. The only difference is that Taksalis have a different slit at the bottom of the dress, instead of having the middle open like Nihangs, theirs is closed to cover their kachera while sitting, which they do for extended periods of time. Only other different are the gathra holders on the shoulders and breast pockets, both of which came into style due to the British army uniform, they do not appear to be worn before the time of the British.

Like a member said on this board, go view old Rajputs and Mughals from that time period they all use to wear these types of dress, its called a Jamah. The style Nihangs wear now is a slighty modified jama.

If you read historical books like Gurpratap Suraj Prakash Granth you'll see that Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj wore many different types of bana, ranging from a blue warrior jama to the well known Sadhu/Nirmala bhagva style of robe.

If you read the old historical books they do not even mention what type of dress Singhs wore, it wasn't an issue many didn't even wear cloths. The main bana, or uniform, was simply a Dastar, Kamarkasa (extremely important), and Kachera. Nowadays if you look at most Nihangs they do not even know how to tie a kamarkasa properly to hold their shastars intact and secure without the use of a gathra.

Sure Nihangs can claim some things like the farla tradition, but going on a mission to de-robe any premi seems ludicrous. Will you do the same with the Adh Chand?

Instead of cussing the Akhand Keertani Jatha for wearing Bana and not respecting the Nihang traditions, maybe your initiative needs to go to the Nihangs, who claim to be great warriors but very few even spend time to practice their Shastar Vidiya. No group is without faults so if you claim to be in a group help fix those faults.

I do not disgaree with your points at all, i am aware of the historical references and of the fact that many never even used to wear a bana. I am not de-robing anything, as i too am a nihnag singh of the budha dal, and promote puratan maryada, tradition just like you! And i also agree that many nihang singh in india are just nangs, as in they have no gian of gurbani or like you said practice shastar vidiya!! But i think you have misunderstood my point, simply those who try to be something there are not!!

Perhaps you are right, infact you are i should direct my efforts towards those nihangs who are simply not.

But i still thought this had to be said, i am merely throwing them a life line a chance of realising there is something more that then just staying in your comfort zone.

Example of what i mean of those trying to be something they are not. I was talking to this 'nihang'(dressed like a nihang, so i assumed he is). He then asked me if i eat meat, i replied yes as i follow the maryada of chatka. He was absolutely shocked, he then started to preach that i shouldnt and that it is wrong, and there are claims in Aad Guru Granth Sahib that agree with this. Now analysing what just happened, this is a nihang singh who is cussing his own maryada, now for those sikhs who are trying to find themselves approach such a possible. There understanding of nihangs would be somewhat confused.

Imagine Baba Jathedar Baba Surjit Singh, talking to a 'nihang'(akj dressed like one) about chatka is wrong, he would end up chatka-ing him!

Maybe i wont continue to cuss the akj globally, but will cuss pakhand! Even if that is the nihangs!

[Maha Singh]

Mr Landa, how much Shastarvidiya have you trained in?

[MrLanda]

Mr Landa, how much Shastarvidiya have you trained in?

I dont see the point of the question, but i will answer by saying how much have you trained in?

[Maha Singh]

I dont see the point of the question, but i will answer by saying how much have you trained in?

There is a point of the question because the main key differentiation between the Sikh Sampardas is the expertise they have in a particular field. If you claim to be a Nirmala, then as part of your path and lifestyle you would have knowledge in Vedant, History, Scriptures more than the normal Sikh. In the same way, a Nihangs lifestyle is based upon Jang Yudh, his maryada and rehni behni is such that reflects the preparations for the battlefield. But above this, their devotion to the Satguru, to Gurbani, to Seva, to Kirat Karni, Naam Japna, and respect for Kirtan Traditions are all the same.

As you call the Akali Nihangs a Fauj, you yourself have established that they are an army, and what is an army without knowledge of Jang Yudh? So my point to asking would be, as a Nihang youself, how much training have you done in Shastarvidiya that qualifies you to be a Nihang?

As youve asked me, ive been learning for the past 6 yrs, week in week out. As you are trying to uphold the Maryada of Nihang Singhs, it is important for you to establish how close you are to living that ideal.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Maha Singh

[Matheen]

ive been learning for the past 6 yrs, week in week out.....

Respect!

[MrLanda]

There is a point of the question because the main key differentiation between the Sikh Sampardas is the expertise they have in a particular field. If you claim to be a Nirmala, then as part of your path and lifestyle you would have knowledge in Vedant, History, Scriptures more than the normal Sikh. In the same way, a Nihangs lifestyle is based upon Jang Yudh, his maryada and rehni behni is such that reflects the preparations for the battlefield. But above this, their devotion to the Satguru, to Gurbani, to Seva, to Kirat Karni, Naam Japna, and respect for Kirtan Traditions are all the same.

As you call the Akali Nihangs a Fauj, you yourself have established that they are an army, and what is an army without knowledge of Jang Yudh? So my point to asking would be, as a Nihang youself, how much training have you done in Shastarvidiya that qualifies you to be a Nihang?

As youve asked me, ive been learning for the past 6 yrs, week in week out. As you are trying to uphold the Maryada of Nihang Singhs, it is important for you to establish how close you are to living that ideal.

Due to geographical reasons, shastar vidiya has not been taught where i am located. You are clearly very lucky to have the access to Nihang Niddar Singhs classes, but nevertheless i still see the relevance of being martially astute which is why i am equipped in another field of martial art - muay thai. I totally agree when you say to live that ideal as a nihang singh, and a nihang singh is someone who covers all above stated elements, kirtan, seve, naam, etc. Not just being tyar bar tyar in jang yudh, but in other aspects too.

As you know the fundamental of sikhi is naam, and we will not attain salvation just by studying a martial art.

Anyway, this is diverting from the topic, you are a nihang singh also if you from the midlands area you will know all of the fauj that i too know. So i wont argue with you, as you are an upholder of purtan maryada. Again, my argument is about, those who pretend to be something they are not!

Akaaal Fateh!!

[jaikaara]

Well by asking a question about how much of the learning of shastar vidiya has been will we get the answer to the issue ?

Shastar vidiya is almost lost, i appreciate Niddar singh ji's efforts but again its not going to cover all that is lost.

I although live in India, have a difficult time finding people to teach shastar vidiya, what they have been teaching is just 'ornamental' Kartab baazi.

The basic respect of the Shastar is lost.

There is more fusion and 'renovation' to the ancient martial art.

I have a dream to be a good swordsman, it feels like it shall always be a dream.

[shaheediyan]

The art of swordsmanship is not unique to Nihangs. If you can't find a Shastarvidya Gurdev then do an ardas for and find/learn from a Gurdev from another kaum, travel a few times a year if you have to.

The art of kirtan (proper) and related saaj has not be been preserved by Sikhs per se, many top Kirtan Ustaads have learnt from Muslim/Hindu Gharanas and adapted in order to not loose the art altogether.

Many traditonal (Hindu based) fighting arts still exist in the Philippines and Indonesia. You get the gatka equivalent sports such as Eskrima and Arnis, but a few GMs still exist who have inherited and further developed real weapons based fighting arts. Some of these GMs ar amazing, their Yudh Avasta is so high that they can hold/feel a new shastar and adapt a style within seconds. They also retain a huge plethora of open hand techniques based on the weapons movements (much like Shastar Vidya - although in SV its open handed transposed to shastar, where as Filipino is the other way around).

I am in no way saying forsake SV, because alongside learning SV one learns Puratan Khalsa Ithihas, Strategy, Raj Niti, Bol Chaal, Maryada etc, and its imperative to preserve these (which is being done very well via planned book releases and a good number of devoted students like Mahakaal). But aside from the SV, many aspects of Nihang psychology etc do still exist in parts of the Dal - these traditions need to be learnt.

If one hasn't access to SV, then they should definately learn a near equivalent art as possible i.e. an art which is battle proven.

I have heard many crazy stories of Filipino Illustrisimo Masters being repeatedly forced into 'death matches' with devastating results. A man who has killed or disabled/maimed people in numerous encounters is definately worth learning from in my opinion.

I guess what I am saying is that Singhs shouldn't make excuses. Learn a real fighting art, SV is deadly - and allows you to understand in detail much of our Yudh based ithihaas i.e. about Pande Khans encounter with a Pathan, but if you don't like Nihang Niddar Singh then learn something else, but something that is made for 'quick killing' rather than sport.

[jaikaara]

very truely said Shaheediyan veerji , i tried the local hindus, some have good knowledge but are not willing due to law and order issues, but i make it a point to check every akhara i come across and talk to the ustaad or Khalifa.

Lets hope i get a good Gurdev soon. Veers i did manage to get a 'lohar' to make shastars for me. He is a tribal rajput. Got a sort of a throw knife made from on saturday. Looks more like an arrow head. will post the picture soon.

He is got a nice sword made, its good but rough looking, much better than shastars i got from amritsar. am thinking if i should buy it. Its got no finishing at all. The blade is two and half feet in length

[shaheediyan]

Jaikaara Veer, which Khalifas have you come across, please share details of location, names and what they practice... I thought the Khalifa tradition had disappeared from Punjab (Indian anyway). Pre-Partition days, some bajurg Akalis are still said to have memories of 'contests' with their Khalifa equivalents.. or may you are using the word in a different context..

Please post some pictures of this Lohars work, would be interesting to see. Finishing is not a big deal i.e. creating a bevel and polishing etc, even putting a hilt on, as long as the blade is of good quality.

[jaikaara]

I have been around the northern and central region of India where there are local akharas and the Khalifa is basically the 'owner' of the Akhara, he is suppose to be an expert too. The ustaad is the teacher who trains you.

There are local names like Kallan pehalwan , chandarpal ustad, not too big, but yes they have their share of trophies during competitions.

I have known a Khalifa who had blindfoldedly sliced 21 pearls with a sword.

Shaheediyan veer ji i will click that knife and post it.

[Guest zulu]

As youve asked me, ive been learning for the past 6 yrs, week in week out.

Legend!

[shaheediyan]

Thanks. Its an evolution in language use I think, same as Ustaad - which was originally used for teachers in Muslim Gharanas and Guru in Hindu Gharanas, now the words are used by everyone.

[Maha Singh]

Shaheediyan you are right to say that Singhs should train in whatever martial art they can find, as long as it is battle effective and is proven to take lives. Philipino arts are good for weapons, however due to them being fairly commercialised there is a heap of instructors about, most of which arent good enough to teach the higher levels of the arts. I met some Kali instructors a while ago from a recommendation of a work colleague, these guys were awful but where spouting that they had learnt from Krishna Godainia. Krishna himself provides a set ciriculum which spans about 2 yrs and that allows his students to teach. Anyone with knowledge in true weapons arts will know it takes far longer than 2 yrs to learn let alone be in the position to teach it on. When he tried to set me up on a Direct Debit I was out the door lol.

My point being, go out to different schools and see what they can offer you, is the instructor knowledgeable in terms of technique, strategy, multiples, weapons etc and how clear and concise is the teaching method. The instructor should not be in it for the money and should be able to advance students who show potential.

As you have said, it is the Hindus and the Muslims who carried on the Raag tradition, and the Naamdharis went to learn from them, which was then slowly disolved back into the Kirtan tradition of the Sikhs. Fine, however due to the break in lineages the bandishes which have been disolved are the bandishes of the Muslims and Hindus, not the Sikh Gurus. There is no doubt that aspects of Shastarvidiya have also been lost, however there is a huge amount which can still be retained if people put the effort in to learn. A similar example would be if a number of Singhs went to Escrima schools and learnt their stickwork techniques, and then a decade or so later began teaching it in the form of "Sikh Stickfighting", at one level it is still stickfighting, however it is not the same stickfighting which is done in Shastarvidiya or the stickfighting which would have been done by puratan Singhs.

If we are to truely preserve our arts and vidiya, it must be done with the intention to do seva to preserve it, not with the intention for ego or jathedhari, association or labels. To preserve any art and display it within the world is only doing the mehima of our Satguru, that they were this great and that they were masters in these arts. Sorry for moving away from the original topic but I just wanted to throw my thoughts in.

[shaheediyan]

I agree on the whole with what you have said Maha Singh.

Yes, over 90% of ALL so called ‘martial’ arts are commercialised and in being so, loose their true persona. As I mentioned, the same is true for FMA.

There are only probably only a handful of instructors in Britain who I would say teach the real deal, one is in Scotland.

Even most schools of real fighting forms like Wingchun and Ninjitsu are largely commercialised today, very few, for example, teach the traditional (Panam) style of Wingchun.

I have actually found similarities in basic responses in SV and real FMA, in terms of sideways evasion/response, monitoring, quick kill, baiting and manipulation/technique over power etc. But there are still clear differences, namely the footwork. What I will say, is that in the true forms of FMA, sticks are not the weapon, they merely represent the sword, all drills (hand movements) etc, are taught as if you are using a sword i.e. bearing cuts, stabs, follow on’s in mind etc – and the avoiding the cardinal sin – never touch blade on blade (or stick on stick) – always target the hand, wrist, elbow, armpit, eyes etc etc. Even the Nihangs had to always adapt their styles to using new weapons, be them Indian, Persian or British – this is the mindset and vidya I am talking about - the ability to measure and respond in the most efficient way using whatever is available – this something any true Master can do – with similar results (no different to divine revelation). And I totally agree, the tradition is the tradition, it cannot replaced, I am not implying that it is. If one learns a farangi vidya, they should respect it and not hide the fact that, that is what it is. If you choose to create your own yudh kalan, then state that it is your creation.

“To preserve any art and display it within the world is only doing the mehima of our Satguru, that they were this great and that they were masters in these arts.”

In light of the above and as always – as a 1st option, I recommend learning SV to any UK sangat, but as Maha Singh says, if you are going to learn something else, then bear the above in mind when searching.

The Namdharis, mainly learned saaj vidya from other gharanai as well as newer/different singing styles like Tumri and Qwaal, they have always retained many original reetan/bandishes none the less. They have even shared knowledge with Bhai Mardanas Rababis i.e. Bhai Tabba, so have enhanced their knowledge base. We are also lucky to have people who have inherited many old kirtan traditions outside of the gharana influence i.e. Bhai Jwalas Singh, Bhai Avtar Singh, the Rababis, Bhai Balbir Singhs Nihang father and brothers (deceased) etc to name but a few, so the kirtan field is not as diluted as you may think. Plus remnants of Gurus Dhrupadi kirtan have actually been preserved in various gharana around India (as mentioned in another post). Kirtan is in a much better place than SV – purely because there are still numerous (be them in the minority) puritan traditions that still exist.