Interesting Times Article On Afghani War

[dalsingh101]

Yup. We need a political ideology to reflect Gurbani, but an ideology that actually has teeth in this modern world. That needs good writers, orators and thinkers, which is before we even get to the 'heavy side'. So who's going to come up with it?

We have got a hell of a lot of intellectual negotiating to do inbetween the Singh Sabha and sanatan paradigms. Essentially we have to undertake the task of marrying the two first.

Not only do we need what you said but also living models. Only certain types are effected by ideas in written form. Our quom has a big amount of illiterate semi-illiterate pindu types. They seem to have small imaginations and limited cognitive abilities? They are the everyday Joes we need to get to.

Dare I say it but the ideology you spoke about has been at least partially developed by the Singh Sabha. It's just that nobody has been living/implementing it. That is not a promising sign. I come from a position that was largely influenced by certain (I believe to be) positive ideals of community but the truth is that reality has struck like a mofo. We have the ideas,we just don't have the collective will to follow it, caste overrides the religion. We need to accept certain assholeyness is endemic in the panth in large numbers before we can actually start trying to change it.

We need our own heartfelt 'enlightenment' but our lot are a bit too cavemanlike for that stuff right now by the looks of it. lol

One thing is certain though, anyone trying to do this needs muscle. Our lot have a very .......errr...... shall we say traditional method of resolving disputes. It will involve battering people and stupid arguments with paghs flying off heads. It is a sad fact.

Basically we need a patriotic dictator, our own Ataturk type thing. No killings between ourselves though, that shit has to stop.

Edited February 7, 2010 by dalsingh101

[HSD1]

We have got a hell of a lot of intellectual negotiating to do inbetween the Singh Sabha and sanatan paradigms. Essentially we have to undertake the task of marrying the two first.

Sanatans just want sikhi to be a part of hinduism, and want to bash any form of independent thought or action by the sikh nation. Singh Sabhas dont care too much about outside forces unless its for scaremongering purposes. They usually act as a force inside our nation, picking on those that they feel arent up to their standards. Add to that all the sikhs running around creating divisions so that they can carve out their own little niche. Rather than negotiation i think it just needs a completely new ideology from the ground up for the times we live in. It can be parts of what politics there was before, from all sides of the divide but it will have to be pretty comprehensive so that the others arent needed.

Not only do we need what you said but also living models. Only certain types are effected by ideas in written form. Our quom has a big amount of illiterate semi-illiterate pindu types. They seem to have small imaginations and cognitive abilities?

Hence the orators. Sants are good in this respect. Either that or we can tap into the power of modern media. The answers are all out there, it's just the ball needs to start rolling first.

Dare I say it but the ideology you spoke about has been at least partially developed by the Singh Sabha. It's just that nobody has been living/implementing it. That is not a promising sign. I come from a position that was largely influenced by certain (I believe to be) positive ideals of community but the truth is that reality has struck like a mofo. We have the ideas,we just don't have the collective will to follow it, caste overrides the religion. We need to accept certain assholeyness is endemic in the panth in large numbers before we can actually start trying to change it.

They tried it, but not in the right respect. They wanted a one size fits all solution to most of their problems. We are going to have to make it so that there is something for everyone. That doesnt mean catering for their every whim, but giving people enough of what they want and being loose enough to let the rest just 'slide'.

We need our own heartfelt 'enlightenment' but our lot are a bit too cavemanlike for that stuff right now by the looks of it. lol

One thing is certain though, anyone trying to do this needs muscle. Our lot have a very .......errr...... shall we say traditional method of resolving disputes. It will involve battering people and stupid arguments with paghs flying off heads. It is a sad fact.

Basically we need a patriotic dictator, our own Ataturk type thing. No killings between ourselves though, that shit has to stop.

We are only cavemen because it's nice and easy to run around acting like morons. Our nation needs a slap, some stern words, before being told what is expected of it. No more monkeying around, caste-ism, sexism, submissive attitudes to non-sikhs - it all has to stop. As well as a patriotic leader we will need plenty of leaders to take roles further down the chain. Right down to the muscle at the bottom.

[dalsingh101]

Sanatans just want sikhi to be a part of hinduism, and want to bash any form of independent thought or action by the sikh nation. Singh Sabhas dont care too much about outside forces unless its for scaremongering purposes. They usually act as a force inside our nation, picking on those that they feel arent up to their standards.

Nail on head. I think the historically intellectual movement that was Singh Sabha has turned into a cover for caste based obnoxiousness these days. The original movement made significant developments towards defining Sikh 'orthodoxy' but seems to have petered out into a thinly veiled Jatt flavoured Sikhism. Which is sad because the original movement was built on notions of equality, at least theoretically.

Add to that all the sikhs running around creating divisions so that they can carve out their own little niche. Rather than negotiation i think it just needs a completely new ideology from the ground up for the times we live in. It can be parts of what politics there was before, from all sides of the divide but it will have to be pretty comprehensive so that the others arent needed.[/quote]

How the heck do you even approach that? Aspects of the variations are almost mutually exclusive of each other. How do you reconcile, say niara pun with a pluralistic worldview? They are polar opposites? What about political considerations where India will be a major global economic and presumably global cultural force in future? What do we do with ideals (as noble as they are) when the people on the ground do not seem to want or believe in them?

How do you promote egalitarianism and equality in a caste ridden society (we are worse than Hindus now), which also has a strong tendency to worship all and sundry. It isn't for no reason that dera type babas/Gurus flourish in Panjab. Before people start blaming Congress/the centre etc. they also have to acknowledge that someything in teh characteristic of Panjabis may well be a big factor in their growth. I heard a Pak Panjabi moaning about the same thing last year. He was saying he didn't get how people in pakland were inclined to worship any old geezer who made themselves out to be spiritual masters. Sound familar? How do we promote the concept of equality when we have strong impulses to elevate people, rightly and wrongly?

The other thiong I realise is that true Sikhi is quite a Spartan lifestyle with its early rising and hours of prayers/meditation. I would say it is one of the most demanding of the five major faiths. Even orthodox Abduls have five relatively short prayers to do and have almost all areas covered by their scripture so don't require much thinking.

In contrast we have long discussions of say the nature and relevance of Chandi to Sikhs. Also we now have a growing reliance on vedantic

explanations for much of our culture. How do we reconcile these Indic interpretations with ones rooted in post renaissence paradigms? One describes certain concepts as deep truths the other as allegorical myths. Both approaches can be said to compromise our independence, one to Indic culture, the other to the west. Coming from a Singh Sabha background myself (the ideological one not the current Gurdwara domination one), I have to admit that SS did seem to go too far in getting away from 'Hindooism' and now we are having to face stuff because of this. Look at that article I posted about Bhai Vir SIngh's editing of Panth Prakash for example. What new comprehensive approach can we take to write our history? What will be our Khalsacentric paradigm?

Hasn't that ball started to roll with discussions such as this? We are at the early planning stages. Thing with sants is that you have some good ones and some not. Plus we want to make leaders, not followers. That following mentality is what causes all the ghulam poona we see in Panjab. This is in no way any insult to true sants by the way, incase anyone tries to throw that one at me.

So basically we can't get away from plurality? That is going to be a panth with lots of seriously diverse strains in it. Reminds me of Hinduism? We have to identify and promote certain common planks in all this. Obviously bani and simran will be central. I can't get away from teh notion of some degree of centrality of ideology between Sikhs, maybe that is my problem?

Don't discount the impact of inherent characteristics. If we are caveman, then we essentially need a heavy intellect who is also a 'super caveman' if you know what I mean. This will involve master diplomacy internally and externally. Who is going to come up to put us all to task?

My thinking is at this stage, how do you foster and facilitate the right type of independent thinking and courage to make this a possibility in future? Our lot will submit to outsiders at the snap of a finger but constantly show aakarh towards each other over every little thing. I think we are constantly alert to the threat of being diminished by one of our own, whilst some of our more c*nty brothers are constantly trying to elevate themselves by putting their shoes on their own brother's heads.

Look at the size of the post. I've done a Harjas! I had to get this out though. lol

[HSD1]

How the heck do you even approach that? Aspects of the variations are almost mutually exclusive of each other. How do you reconcile, say niara pun with a pluralistic worldview? They are polar opposites? What about political considerations where India will be a major global economic and presumably global cultural force in future? What do we do with ideals (as noble as they are) when the people on the ground do not seem to want or believe in them?

Just observe and understand human behaviour as well as coming up with clear aims. Then using what you know to work towards them. When it comes to choosing between polar opposites, it may just be a case of choosing what is best suited to the aims. As for hindustan's power, the mughals were no less bigger to our ancestors. Lobbying, propaganda and undermining their actions will do them in. Show the world how hollow and debauched the world's largest democracy is and see what happens. Has it ever occurred to you why hindus are so determined and vocal in defending their image as peaceful pushovers? Because it allows them to get close enough to those they hate to do them in. In truth hindustan is a neo-mughal empire that is up there with the Third Reich when it comes to it's sick hypocritical nature. Shine a light on it and everyone will see.

For noble ideals, you will not find many willing to believe let alone practice them. So what do you do? Well you answered that when you used the word 'want'. You have to make them want to believe in the ideals. Many of our jatt ancestors became sikhs because we took land off the mughals and dished it out to whoever would fight. We need to see what the enemy have, then offer it to our own lot if they are willing to do whatever is necessary to get it. That will be a lot harder to achieve in a world where the 'anything goes if you have money' capitalist system is in place, but it wont be impossible.

How do you promote egalitarianism and equality in a caste ridden society (we are worse than Hindus now), which also has a strong tendency to worship all and sundry. It isn't for no reason that dera type babas/Gurus flourish in Panjab. Before people start blaming Congress/the centre etc. they also have to acknowledge that someything in teh characteristic of Panjabis may well be a big factor in their growth. I heard a Pak Panjabi moaning about the same thing last year. He was saying he didn't get how people in pakland were inclined to worship any old geezer who made themselves out to be spiritual masters. Sound familar? How do we promote the concept of equality when we have strong impulses to elevate people, rightly and wrongly?

You make equality appealing. You make individuality appealing. You make deras/following like a sheep unappealing. Think about what you want achieved and then come up with the ways of getting there. Dont publish them all on the internet though, as many of those who dont want change will come up with counters before enough of our lot get off their asses to do anything. Do speeches in gurudwaras if you come up with any good ideas or set up some kind of media that can be distributed at gurudwaras. The answers are out there. Punjabis arent dumb. We just need to play to our strengths and overcome the weaknesses. Half the battle is proving to people there is a problem and getting them to see what the world really is.

In contrast we have long discussions of say the nature and relevance of Chandi to Sikhs. Also we now have a growing reliance on vedantic

explanations for much of our culture. How do we reconcile these Indic interpretations with ones rooted in post renaissence paradigms? One describes certain concepts as deep truths the other as allegorical myths. Both approaches can be said to compromise our independence, one to Indic culture, the other to the west. Coming from a Singh Sabha background myself (the ideological one not the current Gurdwara domination one), I have to admit that SS did seem to go too far in getting away from 'Hindooism' and now we are having to face stuff because of this. Look at that article I posted about Bhai Vir SIngh's editing of Panth Prakash for example. What new comprehensive approach can we take to write our history? What will be our Khalsacentric paradigm?

Sanatans are stupid. They say that sikhs are hindus and that we are the same. Then you can prove them wrong, they say it was the british/singh sabha who distorted the relationship. When that is proved wrong they say that Maharaja Ranjit Singh and the Sarkar-e-Khalsa were not real sikhs, they were jatts, and that the sikh freedom fighters who fought the Mughals were hindustanis. That is proved wrong, then they say our 10th Guru was a hindu, give them evidence it isnt true and they then bring up that some of our gurus supposedly died for hindu dharam, but you point out that they died to prove that you cannot convince someone to convert out of fear of death, they then say Guru Nanak was a hindu and that we lost his message somewhere along the line. See? How can they justify their own beliefs when they are just jumping around all the time? They do it because, as history shows, that the winner says what is right. The hindus won in 47 and 84, so they can interfere in our religion as much as they want. So what if we share some characteristics with them? Circumcision is a jew/musi thing but it doesnt stop them fighting over whats important. All this sanatan crap is intended to neuter the sikh nation. I'm sure the musis tried to do the same by twisting the good relationships our early gurus had with muslim nobles and religous men.

Khalsacentric history will be honest. Sanatans give longwinded arguments with quasi-evidence. But it doesnt add up. Our ancestors were very different to hindu punjabis. Why the difference? The sanatans cant answer, but dont worry, they are probably coming up with distorted evidence and answers to that point as we speak. I've already given a flavour of Khalsa centric history would look like with my international stuff earlier in this thread. All it needs is a few sikhs with brains and time who are willing to write something that wont be used for personal profit.

Hasn't that ball started to roll with discussions such as this? We are at the early planning stages. Thing with sants is that you have some good ones and some not. Plus we want to make leaders, not followers. That following mentality is what causes all the ghulam poona we see in Panjab. This is in no way any insult to true sants by the way, incase anyone tries to throw that one at me.

We need leaders and troopers in many spheres of life. Sant Bhindranwale Ji tried to be politician, PR man, Sant among other things. It was just too much. Sants have a clear role in the way they do sewa and parchar among the punjab, in a way that is not inducing of celebrity status, and that should be it. But we can discuss the role of Sant in another topic.

So basically we can't get away from plurality? That is going to be a panth with lots of seriously diverse strains in it. Reminds me of Hinduism? We have to identify and promote certain common planks in all this. Obviously bani and simran will be central. I can't get away from teh notion of some degree of centrality of ideology between Sikhs, maybe that is my problem?

It will be diverse as long as there is interference from outside forces like western liberalism and hindu fascism.

Don't discount the impact of inherent characteristics. If we are caveman, then we essentially need a heavy intellect who is also a 'super caveman' if you know what I mean. This will involve master diplomacy internally and externally. Who is going to come up to put us all to task?

You know, I've not really been on the look out for a super leader, but maybe we should be. There are a few ways of looking, not really a good idea to post them here though.

My thinking is at this stage, how do you foster and facilitate the right type of independent thinking and courage to make this a possibility in future? Our lot will submit to outsiders at the snap of a finger but constantly show aakarh towards each other over every little thing. I think we are constantly alert to the threat of being diminished by one of our own, whilst some of our more c*nty brothers are constantly trying to elevate themselves by putting their shoes on their own brother's heads.

The Khalsa is a brotherhood. As soon as that brotherhood stopped winning, we started unravelling. Give people an ideology that sets the boundaries, then take the system into the real world and level our enemies (they do exist no matter how much some people look for the 'good' in others). It will turn back time.

Edited February 8, 2010 by HSD

[dalsingh101]

Show the world how hollow and debauched the world's largest democracy is and see what happens. Has it ever occurred to you why hindus are so determined and vocal in defending their image as peaceful pushovers? Because it allows them to get close enough to those they hate to do them in. In truth hindustan is a neo-mughal empire that is up there with the Third Reich when it comes to it's sick hypocritical nature. Shine a light on it and everyone will see.

You ever wonder why this country is called the teflon country? No shit sticks to it. Truth is whitey doesn't really care too much what Hindustanis do with their own minorities. India is big business and will probably be bigger in future. You can bet the 'democrarcy wallay' will prop it up to hedge their bets against an emerging China who they fear. Hindustanis ARE peaceful pushovers - with everyone but their 'own people', with which they act like brutal savages. But lets keep it real here, our lot aren't are disposed to some bullshit hysteria in the name of religion ourselves. No tameez what so ever. We have an issue with certain types who seem to not grasp simple things and are ready to take some drastic action against perceived 'beadbi' and make us look like intellectually challenged cavemen. Right now Badal has the community played like puppets. Every so often just highlight the latest 'threat' to the panth and get our dimwitted bros to jump around indignantly. Meanwhile he buys another farm.

For noble ideals, you will not find many willing to believe let alone practice them. So what do you do? Well you answered that when you used the word 'want'. You have to make them want to believe in the ideals. Many of our jatt ancestors became sikhs because we took land off the mughals and dished it out to whoever would fight. We need to see what the enemy have, then offer it to our own lot if they are willing to do whatever is necessary to get it.

This will fail. Building up a nation has to be done on firmer foundations that avarice. Look what happened when Maharajah Ranjit Singh did that. As soon as the people were offered what they wanted from another side (wasps) they didn't look back and in droves deserted any notion of independence and sovereignity. Our ancestors you spoke of in the early Khalsa phase were not all preoccupied with land acquisition, many were, but many were also ideologically motivated by faith. Later the materialists gain ascendency and our history shows us that such people have no qualms of selling out for more gain. The mindset we need to grasp is the one ofteh early Khalsa who refused point blank to compromise with the Moguls who tempted them with land, jagirs etc. to stop them agitating. The best they managed was to persuade a reluctant Nawab Kapoor Singh to take a title, but even this didn't stop him organising and leading the Khalsa against the Mogs.

You make equality appealing. You make individuality appealing. You make deras/following like a sheep unappealing. Think about what you want achieved and then come up with the ways of getting there. Dont publish them all on the internet though, as many of those who dont want change will come up with counters before enough of our lot get off their asses to do anything. Do speeches in gurudwaras if you come up with any good ideas or set up some kind of media that can be distributed at gurudwaras. The answers are out there. Punjabis arent dumb. We just need to play to our strengths and overcome the weaknesses. Half the battle is proving to people there is a problem and getting them to see what the world really is.

What we are looking at is an intellectual/spiritual movement really. I don't think we could avoid plurality now - full stop. I think it is relevent to point out that Turkey has a strong secular type military force that works as a checking mechanism on the countries more ...err....sullah kuttarh elements.

In anycase, our people recovered from Banda Singh's execution, we recovered from the wadda ghallughara. We shook off partition. If we can do all that, we'll be back soon.

Our strongest power is/has to be the true tenents of the faith. Equality, bravery and truthfullness and discipline. These are our strongest weapons. If the panth can reflect these values en masse, then every thing will fit into place. Obviously it starts with us, but unless the community largely comes to be defined by these values every scheme we have will fail as our vairees will simply appeal to our selfish side and divide us, as ever.

[HSD1]

You ever wonder why this country is called the teflon country? No shit sticks to it. Truth is whitey doesn't really care too much what Hindustanis do with their own minorities. India is big business and will probably be bigger in future. You can bet the 'democrarcy wallay' will prop it up to hedge their bets against an emerging China who they fear. Hindustanis ARE peaceful pushovers - with everyone but their 'own people', with which they act like brutal savages. But lets keep it real here, our lot aren't are disposed to some bullshit hysteria in the name of religion ourselves. No tameez what so ever. We have an issue with certain types who seem to not grasp simple things and are ready to take some drastic action against perceived 'beadbi' and make us look like intellectually challenged cavemen. Right now Badal has the community played like puppets. Every so often just highlight the latest 'threat' to the panth and get our dimwitted bros to jump around indignantly. Meanwhile he buys another farm.

It's not going to change things overnight. Nothing will. But it will sow the seeds of what will end their relationship. Why do you think the hindus put so much effort in portraying sikhs in various negative ways, and going to such lengths to defend their own image? It all chips away at any attempt to move in a better direction. They raped and abused the white lady who wrote that fighting for faith and nation book, and that was just one individual. Who knows what the future holds. India could quite easily find itself falling out of favour with the west. Just sitting on our asses wont change a thing. The world needs to know the truth. When the next generation grows up and asks what did we do to get justice, will we say 'Oh, we thought the goreh and hindus were too chummy so we just sat around and whinged'? It sounds like our enemies attempts at making us docile and defeatist are having the desired effects. Dont fall for it.

This will fail. Building up a nation has to be done on firmer foundations that avarice. Look what happened when Maharajah Ranjit Singh did that. As soon as the people were offered what they wanted from another side (wasps) they didn't look back and in droves deserted any notion of independence and sovereignity. Our ancestors you spoke of in the early Khalsa phase were not all preoccupied with land acquisition, many were, but many were also ideologically motivated by faith. Later the materialists gain ascendency and our history shows us that such people have no qualms of selling out for more gain. The mindset we need to grasp is the one ofteh early Khalsa who refused point blank to compromise with the Moguls who tempted them with land, jagirs etc. to stop them agitating. The best they managed was to persuade a reluctant Nawab Kapoor Singh to take a title, but even this didn't stop him organising and leading the Khalsa against the Mogs.

In the real world, any movement has plenty of people fighting for a variety of reasons. If you want to win you need to give people enough reasons to get enough of them to fight for what they believe in. Against the mughals you also have to face that many were fighting for their very survival. Nowadays, the hindustanis and westerners dont want to exterminate us but just mould us to their own wants. Which is just as bad, but it's hard getting others to see that. Many sikhs have musi-phobia as the bad muslims are the only ones still trying to wipe us out entirely. Though even they have wised up and started to use 'soft' tactics like conversions of sikh women and men with weaker wills.

Maharaja Ranjit Singh's empire failed as he ran it like a mughal state and inspired little patriotism among the upper classes or the non-sikh lower classes. He could have ruled with an iron fist and taught the non-sikhs a lesson, as well as deposing the nobles and replacing them with soldiers who had worked there way up the Sarkar's chain of command. But let's face it, Maharaja Ranjit Singh looked like he was playing 'keeping up with the Jones's' with the british rather than creating some kind of state that could stand the test of time.

What we are looking at is an intellectual/spiritual movement really. I don't think we could avoid plurality now - full stop. I think it is relevent to point out that Turkey has a strong secular type military force that works as a checking mechanism on the countries more ...err....sullah kuttarh elements.

Well the Khalsa would always end up being used to stop jatt supremacy in a future Khalistan. If it doesnt, we would end up with a state no better than the badalstan thing that east punjab has going on now. But the sikhs need to learn not to be restrained when dealing with non-sikhs who are causing us trouble. Now i dont mean running after them and shooting them, but just having the ability to outwit them. That's something many sikhs dont even bother considering.

In anycase, our people recovered from Banda Singh's execution, we recovered from the wadda ghallughara. We shook off partition. If we can do all that, we'll be back soon.

The nation is in a bad place, but rebuilding all the culture, history and patriotism will take Sikhi to the stars.

Our strongest power is/has to be the true tenents of the faith. Equality, bravery and truthfullness and discipline. These are our strongest weapons. If the panth can reflect these values en masse, then every thing will fit into place. Obviously it starts with us, but unless the community largely comes to be defined by these values every scheme we have will fail as our vairees will simply appeal to our selfish side and divide us, as ever.

The way I see it is that we need to do more than one thing. A bottom-up movement will have it's day, but it needs to be met by a similar movement from the top-down. And yes, that means a state, and all the trappings that go with it. With the resources of a state it would be far easier to create a community like your ideal. They go hand in hand, not one before the other.

Edited February 9, 2010 by HSD