Can An Experience Change Your Conviction?

[laalsingh]

Gurmukho, please discuss. Would you change your convictions if you come across a miracle/experience or see a dream of devi/pir or whatever?

Isn't Gurmat bigger than miracles or some experiences?

Note:Some people do not believe in miracles or experiences, so they should stay away from this discussion.

Edited January 22, 2010 by laalsingh

[dalsingh101]

Note:Some people do not believe in miracles or experiences, so they should stay away from this discussion.

Yes, this approach is really likely to get a holistic picture of the matter!

Hear it all before you make your mind Singha! lol

[Kaljug]

A Cuban friend of mine once told me a story.

There was once a Cubano Catolico who so broke that he hadn't eaten any food for days. So, like a good Catholic, he got down on his knees and prayed: "Dios mio, I haven't had a straight meal for days. I'm starving, please answer my prayers and send me some good food and I'll go the Church next Sunday and light a candle for you in thanksgiving."

After the first day, the Cubano is getting pains in his abdomen because he still hasn't received anything. Again, he gets down on his knees, and this time with more passion and desperation, he prays and prays with tears in his eyes. "Eh Dios, I know that I haven't been the best Catholic that I could be, but I still love you. You are my mother and father, please provide for me.

It's approaching midnight on the second day and there has still been no response from Our Father in Heaven.

On the third day, too weak to stay on his knees and too dehydrates to weep, the man lies prostrate on the ground and mumbles his prayers continuously for the whole day. "Dios mio, I have no one but you. Provide me for me and my children as you provided for St Joseph to care for the infant Jesus." He goes on and on like this until early on Sunday morning.

On Sunday morning, at amritvela, the Devil appears in a puff of smoke, laughing at the man's misfortune. Says the Prince of Darkness, "You fool, you see that God does not answer your prayers because I am the real god of this world. Indeed, I am the sargun form of the Almighty who has come in answer to your prayers. Eat this food which I provide for you, and a light a candle for the one who has truly answered your prayers."

At this, a veritable feast with smoked jutia, chicharones, ropa vieja, and all the arroz the man can eat appears as if by jadu. The man takes one look at the food and eats his fill with the Devil laughing uproariously above him.

Come time for Sunday mass, the Cubano goes straight to church and lights a candle in thanksgiving, praying: "Dios mio, thank you for answering my prayer and sending your servant, the Devil, to bring me the food I asked you for. I light this candle for you, may it be a pleasing offering to you."

The point is that, you may have personal experiences of devatay, pirs, sheikhs, or whatever, but one shouldn't allow them to distract you from the path of worship of the Highest.

[chatanga1]

an experience with the spirit world left me with no doubt, of life after this world.

[Xylitol]

Gyani Thakur Singh once mentioned in his katha that SOME pirs might appear in different roops to sikhs who go for their darshan in order to confuse them off the path.

He also mentioned that on Gurmat marg we get darshan of various devis before we get darshan of God, as they come to do satkaar of a singh who does kamai.

[dalsingh101]

Many years ago I heard a story about a Christian padre who was once approached by a young excited novice, the novice told him that he had seen the virgin Mary during his prayers the night before.

The priest replied 'That was nice.'

He continued "If you see her again, I want you too spit on her face and tell her to go away."

The novice was shocked! The priest explained that during the early stages of such bhagti the mind/ imagination can play all sorts of tricks to prevent one having the deep, singular focus required to get full phal.

Make of it what you will.

[Kaljug]

Many years ago I heard a story about a Christian padre who was once approached by a young excited novice, the novice told him that he had seen the virgin Mary during his prayers the night before.

The priest replied 'That was nice.'

He continued "If you see her again, I want you too spit on her face and tell her to go away."

The novice was shocked! The priest explained that during the early stages of such bhagti the mind/ imagination can play all sorts of tricks to prevent one having the deep, singular focus required to get full phal.

Make of it what you will.

Reminds me of the Zen koan. "If you see the Buddha on the road, cut him down."

Just make sure that it's not just any old buddha that you cut down.

K.

[Mithar]

an experience with the spirit world left me with no doubt, of life after this world.

Please share your experience.

[Mithar]

Reminds me of the Zen koan. "If you see the Buddha on the road, cut him down."

Just make sure that it's not just any old buddha that you cut down.

K.

lol

[Chakarvarti]

Reminds me of the Zen koan. "If you see the Buddha on the road, cut him down."

Just make sure that it's not just any old buddha that you cut down.

K.

hahaha made my day

[kdsingh80]

Gurmukho, please discuss. Would you change your convictions if you come across a miracle/experience or see a dream of devi/pir or whatever?

Isn't Gurmat bigger than miracles or some experiences?

Note:Some people do not believe in miracles or experiences, so they should stay away from this discussion.

People give a lot of weightage to their personal experiances so I think 90% of people which may encounter miracle expeiance with Hindu sant,muslim priest, Christian fathers or Dera baba's will change their beleif

[HarjasDevi]

Yes forums are really the place to share deeply personal and profoundly moving things in order that people who don't even know you can judge, condemn, ridicule and sweep under the carpet of their choice. Do you at least see why people are unwilling to share on this level? These kinds of things are really private. The person having such an experience is gaining an understanding on more than just the intellectual level. He doesn't have to answer to anybody else's opinions of what is right or wrong about it.

Gurmukho, please discuss. Would you change your convictions if you comeacross a miracle/experience or see a dream of devi/pir or whatever?

Isn't Gurmat bigger than miracles or some experiences?

Please allow me to pose the question a little differently. Would you change your beliefs about reality if you had an experience which gave you a new insight into that reality?

Now allow me to qualify without revealing too much. An experience is something with the power to open your heart and mind. It's not a dream or an imaginary image. Allow me to say this much also, something which is a deeply held belief, while sincere and true is only an understanding you have at the time. If the same person has a profound experience, naturally their beliefs will change, because they are no longer based on what he thinks but what he now knows.

A lot of people have had near death experiences. They claim to have seen Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, angels, God, etc, with incredible variety all influenced by previously existing cultural beliefs. Who can say it's wrong or right because it doesn't conform to "our" structure of belief? Maybe all these images are only representations of the mind for experiences which are actually deeper and quite beyond our ability to comprehend?

It's a bit unusual to have no real belief in something and then to have a direct experience of it. Some have claimed mischievous beings are luring you away from the true path. I have a little different take on the matter, having had such an experience myself.

I will give you a hint. I never saw any lady on a tiger.

I didn't say I had darshan of a devi. I said I had darshan of Devi.

I was walking away from a sant who was in Devi bhava, and thousands of people were there in a huge crowd. As I was walking away from the sant, I lost my ordinary consciousness and everything went dark because suddenly, as I was sitting into the chair, there was this amazing Presence right beside and within me, in fact there really wasn't any concept of spatial distance. This incredibly brilliant Light was shining so brightly that the whole room went dark and essentially everything and everyone faded away. There was no other reality. I didn't see any form, just this brilliant golden white Light shining more powerfully than the sun. It radiated all the way to the top of the building and beyond. It was just Pure LIGHT. And being in the Presence of that Divine Light, and I knew instinctively it was Devi Ma, my Divine Mother, My Father my ALL, no one told me.

And I said, "Amma, Amma" with tears streaming down my face and with my whole heart and soul exposed to the Light and I knew the Light loved me. Because the Light was pure love of a mother and I felt very tiny in it's Presence. And the Presence was so exhilarating it was all I wanted to live for. It was what I had come into this world to find. It was the reason for being born. And I wanted to die in that moment, because nothing in my life could compare to the radiance, to the glory of this Great Good Light. And tears were streaming down because I felt so unworthy to be in that Presence of Divine Love. I was aware of my separation and the limits of my mentality and my impurities of mind and heart. And I wanted to be in that Presence always, to be das of, to bow down to, to sing the praises of Her unimaginable glory. My life is the footstool of the Divine Beloved who wears whatever face we can perceive Him with. I did not want my life anymore, so great was the Divine Glory. I wanted to just lose myself forever in the brilliant Light Presence of Divine Mother. Because I had nothing. I am nothing. And coming back to ordinary consciousness was like a grief of separation to my soul.

You know, I don't know how to describe what the glory was like. But it was a definite brilliant Light Presence. It was a Divine Being, the eternal God and also radiating from within my own soul. And just being in that Presence, you want to touch the ground in humility. You instinctively want to bow yourself down because you are keenly aware of your shortcomings. In fact, you want to kiss the very ground where the Light is touching. But the glory was like something not of this world. When I had these experiences I knew things that were going to happen. Like I knew I would have a car accident, and some other things that would happen. I knew things, not because I'm so great, but from being in the Presence of something which was so Great it was beyond our ordinary understanding of time and space. Like I was just made aware of stuff. But I can't remember all the things I knew when I was in that consciousness.

I can tell you this. Sikhi is the deepest truth. But it is not the only expression of deepest truth in the world. And it is not in contradiction to universal truth which human beings understand at different levels but is still leading to the same ultimate truth.

I can tell you this. We are supposed to deeply and profoundly love and care for each other, and that defense of a Khalsa is protective because it comes from cherishing the Light which resides in the living beings. And it isn't a cowardly love. It is a Pure Force which has the power to be a terror to evil while not itself becoming evil.

I can tell you this. Reconciliation is in the Light which hides at the heart of all things. Not separate temporary identities, but actual merging into each other, so that the suffering of the lowliest becomes my own. When I can truly cherish without division, like a Divine Mother and like a Divine Father I can help to heal the causes of suffering. Just as the Light loves us, we are supposed to be the Light of Love in this world of darkness and ignorance. That is our purpose. That is why we are here. We are supposed to give ourselves away as a sacrifice of love to bring comfort and protection and peace to all who need.

Now I don't say I'm all those things. I'm not holy, I'm a sinful, selfish person filled with ignorance and ego. But that was the glory I understood being in the Presence of Divine Light. I understood self-sacrifice and surrender to Divine Love is our purification. When we take this message to heart, we will actually become that which we know is holy.

"Would you change your convictions"

What we think is right, and what we know is right are sometimes not the same. If you have a profound life-changing experience, you aren't so much worried about other people's opinions or what they think is right. It's not that you change your convictions at all, but you move out of the little box of what everybody says Truth is supposed to be limited to.

"Isn't Gurmat bigger than miracles or some experiences?"

Guru's teachings are One with the eternal Truth. But you must understand how limited we are in comprehending the fullness of that truth. Nobody can put Gurmat, into their hip pocket and become oppositional to the things we can't even understand. Because Gurmat is actually flowing though life itself and all our experiences, mundane and profound. Gurmat is eternal Truth, and the eternal Truth is always here with us. It is right beside us in our very own hearts and minds. It flows through our every breath, within, throughout, beyond and always. But Gurmat isn't limited to any interpretations of Singh Sabhias. Gurmat is in the ancient past and the distant future. Gurmat is also God's Divine Presence. And there isn't any miracle bigger than that.

Gurmat is the boat of mukti and it is forever singing in unheard spaces. It is enlivening every nerve and nadi. It is the eternal bani which is praising forever the greatness of God. And every little miracle along the way, however small or foolishly perceived, is another praise of His infinite Glory. There is no opposition between one kind of understanding of truth and another. Truth is always truth, within us and without us.

Now you may all make fun of my foolishness as you like.

[Balbir Singh]

Thanks for sharing your experiences. God! Please bless Harjas all life in harmony with HIM and HER.

[chatanga1]

ok. let the fun begin.

i had a similiar experience when i went to darbar sahib for the 1st time in my life in 1995. those things you mention etc. but i didnt see anything that looked male or female. But i had a feeling that i had come "home".

[shaheediyan]

Thanks for sharing your wonderful experience and related thoughts, it's very brave of you to do so in face of what has been a hostile reception for you at this forum.

To others, how does having an experience of Guru Nanak Dev Ji differ in the general context of this discussion?

[Guest]

Topic like this is highly encouraged on this forum. I will make this one sticky for good some time for future

[Kaljug]

When I was in my teens I took an heroic dose of psilocybin cubensis (magic mushrooms for the unintiated) and had the experience of being everything, everywhere, at all times.

"Something" watched as my puny and terrified ego was cornered and finally destroyed. At that point, something that was greater than I, became brilliantly bright and deeply loving at the same time. I don't know how long this lasted, but it seemed like an eternity.

At some point, I regained consciousness of my body and realised that I was lying prostate on the bare earth and was being inspected by the most beautiful creature I had ever seen. It was like a giant worm made of crystal light with wings formed out of rainbows.

In response to the question in my mind, the being told me that he was the god of the maggots and wanted to know why I had killed one of his children (I guess I must have killed one when I was cleaning up the freshly picked mushrooms). I mentally told the being that I was deeply sorry and that I must have made a mistake.

I wanted to know what the hell the being was, and it showed me how it was the living force that permeated every life form on this planet, and how its essence was universal. (At this point, I threw up and my vomit contained the galaxy we reside in and the larger universe in which our galaxy resides. All of these stars, planets, nebulae, and even the empty spaces in between, glowed with the same kind of light out of which the being was formed.)

For a long time afterwards I was able to see the living light in every tree, plant, flower, insect and human. Ever since, I've had a deep respect for every living thing. I fully understand now why some Buddhists and Jains carry their ahimsa to such great lengths, and why every religion and culture in the world has some form of ritual or prayer before they hunt and kill an animal.

Now, I guess you can say that this was just a chemical reaction in the brain, but phenomenologically I believe there is no such distinction between chemically assisted experiences and experiences which come as a result of brain change due to deep concentration and intense emotion.

I also believe that such experiences are completely personal and serve as individual signposts in our unique journeys. The only danger lies in idolising the experience and believing that they are of universal importance that need to be communicated to the rest of the world. For example, I would have been wrong to declare that the God of the Maggots was real in some transpersonal sense and I needed to adapt Gurbani in order to fit in with my individual experience.

Like siddhis, such things come and go, but ultimately it is you who have to adapt and utilise your personal experiences to make Gurbani a greater part of your life.

From the experience of family members, it is very possible to be taken advantage of by "miracle workers" and spiritual beings in order that you leave the path to Akal and worship them instead. Ultimately though, whatever powers such beings have, they all come from Akal, and bhakti and abhyaas place all such things in subordination to a Gursikh with great kamaee.

K.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Kaljug

[Matheen]

There are many sakhis relating to this topic.

In one from Sooraj Parkash, Guru Ji warns his Sikhs not to deviate from the path or change their convictions or lose their faith in Guru Sahib. Even if "someone/ some shakti manifests in front of you and flies to the top of a tree and sits there, etc (more example of various powers are given)".

If people break their convictions or faith in Guru Sahib due to minor things like dreams or even by seeing something when awake, then what chance have they got when Ridhya- Sidhya begin to follow them around or when Maya tries her hardest to break you from the path.

It is for this reason that nimrata and full faith in and love for Guru Sahib is required to succeed on this path. Full faith in Guru Sahib's teachings and power, and NOBODY else. Every true Mahapursh teaches this - that there are many distractions and tests on the path, but to keep bairaag and longing for Waheguru until only Waheguru remains and 'you' don't.

There are quite a few 'Mahapursh' who reach the level where pirs/devte etc come to do seva and they stop there and think they've made it. 'Prabhta' is the hardest thing to overcome and is referred to as 'bikham nadi' in Gurbani.

[shaheediyan]

"and why every religion and culture in the world has some form of ritual or prayer before they hunt and kill an animal."

As well as after they have hunted it...

[chatanga1]

Thanks for sharing your wonderful experience and related thoughts, it's very brave of you to do so in face of what has been a hostile reception for you at this forum.

Thanks for your support.

[shaheediyan]

Whats rattled your cage?

[Chakarvarti]

I got a question, hopefully i am not going of topic.

Why have some of you felt this divine light, divine, mother/father etc... while people like me havent?

is it simply karma? or am i doing something wrong somwhere

[Matheen]

I got a question, hopefully i am not going of topic....

It's not something to worry about or even to think about. Our focus should be on following Guru Ji's hukam, and leave what happens or doesn't happen to Him.

[HSD1]

Does this topic include 'epiphanies'? And are these realisations/feelings part of my brain just processing information or careful revelations by Waheguru? Or am I talking rubbish again? My mind boggles lol.

[dalsingh101]

Okay, as people are being brave. I'm not the type that usually likes this type of talk but.....

Recently, as I am just starting with simran/nitnem, I had a beautiful experience. I involuntarily woke up in amrit vela (about 3.00 o'clock) and after a few moments....

...my mind and body was vibrating and throbbing to 'Waheguru, Waheguru, Waheguru!!' It was a really beautiful sensation and went on for a good few minutes. I could hear the Waheguru simran strongly and it wasn't anything I was consciously doing. It happened the day after I had completed nitnem fully for the first time. It wasn't subtle but a profound experience.

It hasn't happened since and sometimes I wonder if that was a taste of what I should be reaching for. It was the nearest I have ever been to experiencing what I have heard people calling samadhi. When I was going through it I felt like I was in a bubble from the external world.

I'm weary about reading too much into it. One thing brothers and sisters have to acknowledge is how our own egos will often try and make ourselves to be greater than we are. Keeping an eye on the old ego is central to our system. It is a really crafty bastard that always tries to work itself into our mann. Keep your guards up. The haumai/ego seems to have a field day entwining itself into our religious practices to try and anull them.