Ravi Dassia Dharam - Dalit Deras Reject Move

[kdsingh80]

Jalandhar-based Dera Sachkhand Ballan's directive to sever ties with Sikhs, the Sri Guru Ravidas Sadhu Sampardaye Society -- a conglomerate of more than 150 Dalit deras of Punjab -- on Tuesday rejected outright the newly founded "Ravidassia Dharam".

While condemning Dera Sachkhand's attempt to create a new faith out of the Ravidassia sect, the society also announced it would continue with the practice of following the Sikh holy book, Guru Granth Sahib.

The society, at its executive committee meeting held at Dera Babe Jore, situated near Dera Sachkhand Ballan here, unanimously termed the "separate religion" announcement as an attempt at dividing the communities.

Speaking in the presence of more than 30 dera heads, society president Baba Nirmal Dass Jore Wale said: "The decision taken by the Dera Ballan Trust cannot be imposed on the entire Ravidassia community. The newly created scripture `Amritbani Satguru Ravidass Maharaj-ji' will not be treated as a `granth'. Besides, no one consulted all stakeholders in the matter before taking the decision."

"We condemn the killing of Dera Ballan's Sant Ramanand in Vienna last year, but the Sikh community and Guru Granth Sahib cannot be blamed for the cowardly act of a few people. We must not oppose the holy book," the dera heads said.

"Guru Granth Sahib will not be removed from any gurdwara, while it will be re-installed at Seer Goverdhanpur, the birthplace of Guru Ravidas at Varanasi. The community should continue to follow the centuries-old religious practice," Baba Nirmal Dass said.

The meeting noted that several members of the Dalit community had sacrificed their lives to defend the philosophy of Guru Granth Sahib. "Guru Ravidass' bani reached the masses on being incorporated in Guru Granth Sahib," the meeting agreed.

The participants said the sign of "Har" was created by the society in 1974, and the greeting of "Jai Gurudev" was being used by Dalits since more than 80 years. "We are not against any dera or religious figure, but only against the vested interests of certain people who are misusing the name of a dera," they said.

They also criticised the attempts of some elements to browbeat those who had challenged the Dera Sachkhand directive, as with Samaj Bachao Morcha convener Gian Chand.

Meanwhile, two Ravidassia gurdwaras have formally installed the newly created holy book -- "Amritbani Satguru Ravidass Maharaj-ji" -- alongside Guru Granth Sahib.

Jagdish Jassal, a Dalit villager, said Chaheru-based Dera Phul Dass chief Kishan Nath had installed the new scripture at the Ravidassia gurdwara in Nangal Krar Khan village on Wednesday morning. The text bearing Guru Ravidas `bani' was placed in a separate canopy next to the existing Guru Granth Sahib. A police team was also rushed to the village as a preventive measure.

Similarly, the new scripture was also placed at the Ravidassia gurdwara in Dhadde village, though in a room separate from the one in which Guru Granth Sahib is installed.

[Guest gurmat]

You can thank the Punjabi Jatts for this. Now Punjabi Chamars only want to read Bani of Bhagat Ravidass just because he was a Chamar by profession. Soon the Kabir Panthis will do the same. Brahmins still have a strong hold on Punjabi Sikhs.

[chatanga1]

gurmat ji, you can thank the guy who had rumalla placed on his feet and then spread on Guru Granth Sahib, first.

[kdsingh80]

You can thank the Punjabi Jatts for this. Now Punjabi Chamars only want to read Bani of Bhagat Ravidass just because he was a Chamar by profession. Soon the Kabir Panthis will do the same. Brahmins still have a strong hold on Punjabi Sikhs.

Before commenting on any thread First read what is posted.The news is that 150 dalit Deras have rejected move by Dera ballan of creating a new religion and moving Guru granth sahib

[HarjasDevi]

"gurmat ji, you can thank the guy who had rumalla placed on his feet and then spread on Guru Granth Sahib, first."

And beadbi never takes place in hotels with sharabis, smokers, etc? What is Dharma of using force as last resort hmm? Why haven't their been assassinations of dancehall granthis or even the guy who was caught downloading porn at Harmandir Sahib? But tradition of baba dera sants requires "intervention" of cold-blooded murder of unarmed man in sangat in front of women and children?

No. It is HYPOCRITICAL attack on reputation of the baba, just as in case of Darshan Das, in some juvenile pretended belief the more and more slanders, the more people will justify.

What happened to Panj Piare and elders of community having concerned PUBLIC (where everyone can see) meetings to correct deficiencies or breach of Maryada? When did gangster thugs replace wisdom in Sikhi? And why only murders of sanatan sants and dera babas and not own sharabis who do public beadbi? It's too convenient an intimidation against sanatan non-Khalsa Sikhs and overwhelming majority of non-Jatt communities. Both marginalized and disrespected communities having no legitimate representation with official seats of (Jatt) Sikh power.

And oh yes, we are well acquainted with the terrifically exaggerated INSULTS against Guru Sahib which require juvenile punks to protect and defend honor by murder (except in case of beadbi by stupids in own community who do not face death penalty.) This is prejudiced imbecility at it's finest. Makes the whole world equate Sikhi with Taliban.

If a baba puts rumalla to his feet, show the film! All I have seen if crime of placing tilak (not a crime actually, it's in Gurbani). But every time a baba is targeted for murder, he was guilty of slanders, and putting Guru Sahib in suitcase and sitting on it, of everything imaginable...without proof. Tried, convicted, executed in the court of public opinion with no voice in own defense. Did anyone assassinate Sant Ranjit Singh Dhadrianwale for having sangat matathek to him in front of Guru Granth Sahib Ji? No. No one ever dared claim he was deserving of death penalty for that. Yet here you are on public forum defending death penalty over a rumor.

How terrible. What a mockery of justice and truth. And murderers of human beings who have NO RIGHT TO JUDGE THEM are honored as "heroes of the Khalsa Panth." Isn't it so? It is heroic to kill the unarmed? No! That is vilest cowardice you are all defending and honoring. Not only that, it is criminal, not respecting Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Guru Granth Sahib is message of love, honor, Dharm, truth, peace, mercy. Not this thugism pretend "Tat Khalsaism." Not at all.

Defend some more the evil unpardonable crimes of Ravidasi baba please, and then go execute your own sharabis and wife-beaters and vile fake granthis in own communities if you are not hypocritical and really believe that is authentic Guruji message. And if you do not then be quiet and stop defending MURDER. Ravidasia community is ESTRANGED FROM YOU because of these VILEST ACTIONS OF HATRED AND INTOLERANCE IN SHOOTING UP A GURDHERA WITH WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN IT. IT IS SHAMEFUL. REPREHENSIBLE. TAKE THAT TO THE JAMDHOOT AND DEFEND IT. YOU WILL BE CRYING THEN.

[HarjasDevi]

Isn't it a little kids saying, "Two wrongs don't make a right?"

[chatanga1]

And beadbi never takes place in hotels with sharabis, smokers, etc?

YOU ARE THE QUEEN OF DERAILMENT!!!

why have you stopped posting on the other topics Harjas Kaur Ji? Your deciet was exposed?

And look at you now. dear oh dear...

FYI, the UK RAvidas sabha had stopped him from doing similiar beadbii uk gurdawaras many years ago.

[HarjasDevi]

why have you stopped posting on the other topics Harjas Kaur Ji? Your deciet was exposed?

I've been busy and the thread seems to have died. What else should be said on it ji? What deceit exactly? Speel it out please.

Derailment? The Ravidasi community at Ballen has split from Sikh Panth over the assassination. It is not on point to discus it? Why is answering one comment by person here only derailment but not the comment which was objected?

And if placing rumalla at feet was done years ago and so objectionable, why are not string of murders being carried out if that is appropriate solution? I am objecting to the ABHORRENT crimes committed in both cases of assassination of dera babas in front of own sangats.

Do you somehow believe it is justified and praiseworthy? Explain then. It is a "discussion" forum after all and the topic is....

Replying to Ravi Dassia Dharam - Dalit Deras Reject Move

Move caused by......yes indeedy....Ravidasi baba asssassination. But I am the queen of derailment /rolls eyes. Are you bringing up issues of other topic (actual derailment) or simply trying to invalidate anything I write, without using God-given intelligence to debate merit or demerit of actual ideas expressed?

[chatanga1]

I've been busy and the thread seems to have died. What else should be said on it ji? What deceit exactly? Speel it out please.

Derailment? The Ravidasi community at Ballen has split from Sikh Panth over the assassination. It is not on point to discus it? Why is answering one comment by person here only derailment but not the comment which was objected?

And if placing rumalla at feet was done years ago and so objectionable, why are not string of murders being carried out if that is appropriate solution? I am objecting to the ABHORRENT crimes committed in both cases of assassination of dera babas in front of own sangats.

the thread only died becasue your deceit was exposed. Go back to it and answer if you can. I dont need to spell anything out.

Derailment? pot.kettle.black.

the rumalla on the feet on the nindaks was done 1 week before the time of the commeuppance of the pakhandi. in 2002 ish when he came to uk, he was having people bow to him in Aad Guru's hazoori, in the Ravidas gurdwaras, and they stopped him.

at vienna, the week before the nindaks killing, a person objected to the pakhandis beadbi, he was hospitalized by the nindaks followers, and later died. The people who went the week after went prepared for defence should it be necessary, and when the same thugs, im sorry i should have said bhagats tried to beat these guys up, they and their pakhandi baba got their dues.

you can say whatever you like to make out like these people went with the intention of murder, hated chamars, extremist sikhs etc . Its what we've come to expect from you, harjas kaur ji.

[HarjasDevi]

"the thread only died becasue your deceit was exposed. Go back to it and answer if you can."

Sure thing. But YOU are the nindak who accuse me of deceit and cowardly refuse to explain it here and only hide behind skirt of other thread and broad assumptions to be made by it.

" before the time of the commeuppance of the pakhandi"

Is that what you people are calling murder these days? And what about the 16 other wounded sangat members jio? Was that their comeuppance too? And who are you to judge that you do not have your own comeuppance according to Divine Plan?

"the nindaks killing"

And you are so certain he is a nindak that you are willing to become his nindak on internet without proof beyond rumors?

"a person objected to the pakhandis beadbi, he was hospitalized by the nindaks followers, and later died."

Name and published details or it is just another unsubstantiated rumor. If a murder was committed it becomes a public legal matter, not grounds for vengeance vendetta.

"The people who went the week after went prepared for defence should it be necessary, and when the same thugs, im sorry i should have said bhagats tried to beat these guys up, they and their pakhandi baba got their dues."

These "khalsas" went into a temple filled with families, elders, women and children PREPARED WITH GUNS? To "defend" on someone else's property? Are you insane? That's called an armed ATTACK, not a defense. What fancy footwork your lips do.

"and when the same thugs, im sorry i should have said bhagats tried to beat these guys up, they and their pakhandi baba got their dues.

Bhagats "beat" and shoot into crowd of unarmed women and children?" Bhagats of the Lord commit murder of the unarmed? You are completely corrupted.

"you can say whatever you like to make out like these people went with the intention of murder, hated chamars, extremist sikhs etc . Its what we've come to expect from you, harjas kaur ji."

The insanely shameful actions speak louder than any of my words veer ji. Or should we all go buy bulletproof vests as part of temple wear in case some "bhagats" get notion to defend themselves. Remember this truism: "The end result is your truest intent."

[chatanga1]

Sure thing. But YOU are the nindak who accuse me of deceit and cowardly refuse to explain it here and only hide behind skirt of other thread and broad assumptions to be made by it.

The insanely shameful actions speak louder than any of my words veer ji. Or should we all go buy bulletproof vests as part of temple wear in case some "bhagats" get notion to defend themselves. Remember this truism: "The end result is your truest intent."

i have explained to you what you need to do, i'm not going to hold your hand and show you. you dont need to hide behind big words here, just go back to the topic about the khatris being leaders of the panth pre-singh sabha era.

we dont need tobuy any vests at all Bhen Ji. We just need to go to maharaj with humility that we are insect excreta in front of them. Not with the attitude that our feet have sanctified thier rumalla.

you can strick your truism where suraj-dev doesnt shine. people who are prepared to tolerate others deliberate insults of their guru are not worthy of being called sikhs. Gur Ki ninda sune na kaan. And the weird thing is that this guy was doing disrespect of his OWN guru, Bhagat Ravidas Ji. and those ignorant fools who supported him!

God help them.

[HarjasDevi]

"khatris being leaders of the panth pre-singh sabha era."

Oh. Are you calling that as "deceit?"

I said in leadership role and influential and from families which controlled Gurudwaras throughout reign of Maharaj Ranjit Singh BEFORE there was an SGPC and Akal Takhat. But that is not "deceit."

"Tensions developed between the Punjabi Khatri disciples of the Guru in Delhi, and members of the newly-formed Khalsa. A prominent Khatri disciple was expelled from the place of worship (dharmasala) for refusing to join the Khalsa. Another disciple was expelled for eating with him, starting a chain of further expulsions.^[9] The expelled disciples convened a community gathering, at which two wealthy Khatris demanded that the Khalsa produce a written order from the Guru that a new mandatory code of conduct had been promulgated. A Khatri family that refused to follow the bhaddar ritual was boycotted by the Khatri community.^[9] The Khatri council (panch) closed the bazaar (market) to pressurize the Khalsa. The Khalsa petitioned the state officials to intervene, who forced reopening of the shops. Later, peace was established between the two groups in a sangat (congregation). However, hostility between some Khatris and the Khalsa persisted in the later years.^[9]

Another rift between the Khalsa and some other Nanak Panthi groups seems to be the Khalsa's firm adherence to the doctrine that Guru Gobind Singh had ended the line of human Gurus, declaring the Granth Sahib as the next Guru. Some eighteenth century Sikhs extended the line of Gurus to include Banda Bahadur, Mata Sundari, Mata Sahib Kaur, Mata Sundari's adopted son (Ajit Singh) and grandson (Hathi Singh)." Khalsa

"A minority of the Khatris are Sikh. The Sikh panth is not caste based, still the Khatris played a major role in development of Sikhism as a gentle and inclusive faith. All the Ten Sikh Gurus were Khatri. During the lifetime of the Gurus, most of their major supporters and Sikhs were Khatris. The Sikh institutions till the early 20th century were led by Mahants (Masands) who were generally Khatri. Widespread abuses by the Masands, such as introduction of idols in Gurudwaras, led to agitation for reform by the reformist Singh Sabha resulting in formation of the Shiromani Gurudwara Prabhandak Committee to oversee Sikh Gurudwaras. After the formation of the Khalsa (1699), and especially during the reign of Ranjit Singh, Hindu Khatri families raised at least one son (usually the oldest) as an Amritdhari Sikh.

Among the Khatris the Khukrain or Kukhran were one of the foremost followers of the Sikh Gurus and traditionally brought up one son as a Keshdhari Sikh . This is evident from the large number of Kukhran surnames among Khatri Sikhs .

A predominant section of the Hindu Khukrain continue to follow dual religious traditions of both Sikh as well as Arya Samaj mores . This has been in spite of the religo-political competitive zeal of both the Arya Samaj and Tat Khalsa effort at creating purified identities.

Intermarriage between Khatri as well as Khukrain Sikhs and Hindus are common . The dual religious Hindu and Sikh identity and Kukhran biradri identity comfortably coexists." About Khatris

All of the above articles are written from a Singh Sabha perspective, yet they reveal one clear thing. The sanatan/Hindu Khatri families WERE influential and exerting leadership role on Sikhism especially during time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh until Singh Sabha Reform. This is the time in political history when the Khatri sanatan influenced vanished. But to deny it was ever there, or to call that as "deceit" is real ignorance of history. The fact that ALL Guru Sahibaan and their families were Khatri is not understood to mean these families exerted influence and power over political and spiritual life of Sikhs prior to Singh Sabha and Gurdwara Reform Movement?

The mere existence of sanatan Dera babas all over Punjab is reflecting the persistence of that influence. And the conflicts with Tat Khalsas and dominant Jatt community is directly traceable to it. Please tell me how I am "deceitful" on this point or apologize for public nindya which accuses without fact.

Here is a very interesting article NOT from the Singh Sabha perspective. Refute it factually with citations (and spare the propagandistic insults) if you can. Otherwise making broad-sweeping claims of "deceit" are mere accusation without substance, akin to lies.

"Therefore, the British reduced the number of Bengali soldiers (involved in the 1857 Mutiny) and replaced them with loyal Sikhs and Punjabi Muslims. As Veena Talwar wrote: "To prevent the sort of mutiny they experienced from sepoys in 1857, the British organised religiously segregated regimental units from the alleged martial races, i.e. Sikhs, Pathans, Rajputs etc. This severely restricted Hindus of other castes, particularly the Khatris (Punjabi form of Kshatriya), who had served in Maharaja Ranjit Singh’s forces. The Khatris (all Sikh Gurus were Khatris) were arbitrarily lumped together by the British as trading castes. Many families got around this artificially imposed caste barrier by raising one or more son as a Sikh, chiefly by having him adopt the name Singh and grow hair or beard to match". (Dowry Murder, the Imperial origins of a Cultural Crime).

Thus, the enlistment of Sikhs increased steeply. Joining the army was remunerative. Soldiers were well paid, given agricultural land and pension.

Around this time there was a fall in Sikh morale, stemmed by the Singh Sabha movement. Founded in 1873, it soon split into two. The first group was the Sanatani Sikhs who regarded the Panth as a special form of Hindu tradition. The second was the Tat (true) Khalsa, which believed Sikhism was a different religion.

The British supported the Tat Khalsa movement by insisting only Khalsa Sikhs (those who sported the five Ks) could join the Army. A move to say Sikhs were not Hindus received an impetus in 1898 with Khan Singh Nabha’s book Ham Hindu Nahin, the passing of the Anand Marriage Act in 1909 as the only approved order for Sikh marriage, and the insistence on the five Ks to distinguish Sikhs from Hindus.

It did not matter to the Tat Khalsa that the real name of the Golden Temple is Hari Mandir and, "Of the 15,028 names of Gods that appear in the Adi Granth, Hari occurs over 8,000 times, Ram 2,533 times followed by Prabhu, Gopal, Govind and other Hindu names for the Divine. The popular Sikh coinage Wahe Guru appears only 16 times". (Khushwant Singh).

After several decades, the Tat Khalsa emerged victorious. According to W. H. Mcleod, it ensured that "in 1905, idols were removed from the Hari Mandir". (Historical Dictionary of Sikhism). Modern Sikhism is a creation of this movement.

By about 1920, it was overtaken by the Akali Dal, a new political party that gave expression to the revived sense of Sikh identity. The Akalis entered into a dispute with the British for the control of Sikh Gurudwaras. The passing of the Sikh Gurudwaras Act in 1925 signalled their complete victory. The Act’s definition of a Sikh leant strongly towards the exclusivists’ Khalsa view.

To retain effective control over Punjab, the British drove a wedge between the Jats and Khatris. They passed the Punjab Land Alienation Act of 1900, which created a favoured, dominant, agriculturist class and a non-agriculturist class. The former included Hindu and Sikh Jats and Muslim tribes, and the latter, Hindu Brahmins, Khatris and Banias. The Act made tribe and caste the basis for land ownership. The British sought to anchor itself in Punjab by playing up the distinctions between Hindus and Muslims, while nurturing Muslim and Sikh Jats as loyal subjects.

In this manner, the British supported the Jat Sikhs who were the prime movers of the Tat Khalsa movement.

The consequences were many. One, the birth of the Akali Dal and its control over gurudwaras heralded the tradition of mixing religion and politics. Control of the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee is key to political power in Punjab. Two, it made Jats a powerful community. Three, it started a tradition of Khatris and Aroras raising their first son as a Sikh. Children of the Sikh son became Sikh and so on. Today, future generations of the same family having similar surnames, say Kohli, are known to the outside world as followers of two religions, Sikhism and Hinduism. Four, it created a divide between Jat and Khatri Sikhs, such that the latter are called "Bhapa", a term dismissively used by Jats to describe Khatris and Aroras. Five, "since Jat Sikhs consider themselves superior to others, non-Jat Sikhs in the Indian Army never reveal their surnames for fear of being ridiculed in the Sikh community". Instead they suffix their first names with Singh.

Notwithstanding the fact that an Akali leader (1940-1960 period), Master Tara Singh was co-founder of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad in 1964, Punjab was quite successfully divided between Sikhs and Hindus. During the agitation for Punjab, the divide widened.Those areas (inhabited mostly by Hindus), which had a Hindi-speaking majority, were included in the state of Haryana.

Religion and politics got irrevocably intertwined in Punjab. Adept at using religion, the Akalis ensured the Congress was at the receiving end in the 1980s. Indira Gandhi believed, if-you-can’t-beat-them-join-them. So the Congress propped Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale up to counter the Akalis, creating a monster. What followed was the killing of innocent Hindus and Sikhs. Just like the Congress party’s propping up of Bhindranwale eventually resulted in Operation Blue Star and Indira Gandhi’s death, so also Pakistan’s support for terrorism in India and Afghanistan resulted in the attack on Lal Masjid.

Today, the Jat Sikhs are a powerful community. Such is their clout that the UPA government is yet to implement an August 2004 Supreme Court ruling, which orders the construction of the Punjab portion of the Sutlej Yamuna Canal. Whenever the supremacy of the Jat Sikhs is threatened, there could be violence. After the latest Apex Court order, Amarinder Singh said terrorism would return to Punjab if the order was implemented.

Mixing religion with politics was the British strategy. Has anything changed?"

Sanjeev Nayyar is founder of www.esamskriti.com

[HarjasDevi]

"you can strick your truism where suraj-dev doesnt shine. people who are prepared to tolerate others deliberate insults of their guru are not worthy of being called sikhs. Gur Ki ninda sune na kaan. "

People who equate bhagat/bhaktas who love God with murderers who shoot into crowd of unarmed families, women and children and kill unarmed old man are equal to brainwashed Taliban. Guru God is bigger than insults. But service to God is not equal to shooting guns at unarmed people.

"VIENNA (AP) - Sikhs wielding knives and a handgun attacked two preachers at a rival temple in Vienna in a brawl that left one of the victims dead Monday and at least 15 others wounded, police said. A related clash later broke out in northern India...

The preachers were among the six people who suffered serious wounds and were identified by Indian diplomats and police as Niranjan Das and Sant Rama Nand...

Police spokesman Michael Takacs earlier said the scene was "like a battlefield."

...Witnesses in Vienna spoke of chaos. "Everybody was praying and then it started with knives and a pistol," said Nermal Singh, barefooted, his shirt bloodied and his head bandaged from what he said was a knife wound. Ram, 72, said, "I heard four to five shots" in the temple. "People started screaming, children were crying as they ran out.

"It was like war. There was lots of blood everywhere."

Ram also spoke of "blood everywhere," adding: "People were hit and stabbed with knives."

Bimla Lalka, who lives in a ground-floor apartment opposite the building housing the temple, said she saw seven or eight men with lengthy beards and dark blue and orange turbans fleeing the building. It was not clear whether some of the weapons used were kirpans, the ceremonial daggers carried by Sikhs. Police said kirpans may legally be worn by Sikhs in Austria. Takacs, the police spokesman, said of the six people in serious condition, four were "definitely perpetrators." The most serious wounds were caused by gunshots to the abdomen and head.

The possibility that not only the attackers but also some of the worshippers were armed was being investigated, said Takacs. He denied reports that temple leaders had asked in vain for police protection after telephone threats last week, saying no such requests were received. Bernhard Segall of Vienna medical services said that one of the more seriously wounded had to be resuscitated several times at the scene. He described those hurt as of Indian origin and between 30 and 50 years old. Witnesses said the perpetrators were fundamentalist Sikhs from a higher caste, who accused one or both of the preachers of being disrespectful of the Holy Book. Indian news reports said the attackers were incensed that one of the preachers was given a ceremonial shawl considered a high Sikh honor.

Ram said about 400 people were at the service when the fight broke out in the temple, in a residential building of the working-class Viennese neighborhood. Police put the number at between 150 and 300. Four ambulances and three medical helicopters transported the victims to hospitals... The Dera Sach Khand sect comprises mostly Sikhs belonging to the lower Dalit caste." Police: Victim in Vienna Sikh temple shooting dies

Bhagats is it? armed with guns and using holy Siri Sahibs to attack and not to defend? Shooting into crowd with children? Are you serious? And people call me mad. Strange was passes itself off as defense of Dharma these days.

[HSD1]

But service to God is not equal to shooting guns at unarmed people.

Tell that to the indian army and punjabi police! Or any hindu mob going on a rampage against non-hindus.

Bhagats is it? armed with guns and using holy Siri Sahibs to attack and not to defend? Shooting into crowd with children? Are you serious? And people call me mad. Strange was passes itself off as defense of Dharma these days.

Right, so where is the bit about shooting into a crowd of children? Or are you reading things and then interpreting your own personal 'HarjasKaur' view on them, even though the facts point in another direction?

Strange was passes itself off as defense of Dharma these days.

Haha. I try to be funny, but you are the Queen of Irony.

[HarjasDevi]

But service to God is not equal to shooting guns at unarmed people.

Tell that to the indian army and punjabi police! Or any hindu mob going on a rampage against non-hindus.

Punjabi Police is overwhelmingly represented by Sikhs. Does anyone in right mind believe they represent Sikhi? How does a mob of goondas politically inflamed by politicians equal Hindu Dharmic teaching? Politically motivated mobs who commit crimes reflect ADHARMA and not any DHARMIC spirituality at all. They reflect criminality and not spiritual teaching of any kind.

Why do you think if criminal goodas tortured and attacked Sikhs that it is somekind of justification of shooting up a gurdwara with unarmed women and children in there? I do not blame Sikhi for that idiocy. I blame the idiots.

"Right, so where is the bit about shooting into a crowd of children? Orare you reading things and then interpreting your own personal'HarjasKaur' view on them, even though the facts point in anotherdirection?"

From the published Vienna newspaper article.

"Police spokesman Michael Takacs earlier said the scene was "like a battlefield."

...Witnesses in Vienna spoke of chaos. "Everybody was praying and then it started with knives and a pistol," said Nermal Singh,

"It was like war. There was lots of blood everywhere.

barefooted, his shirt bloodied and his head bandaged from what he saidwas a knife wound. Ram, 72, said, "I heard four to five shots" in thetemple. "People started screaming, children were crying as they ranout."

Can you prove to me that shots fired into a crowd are incapable of ricocheting and injuring innocents? Anyone who fires a gun into a crowded building is an idiot. 16 people were injured. Was entire sangat the target or just the Ravidasi babas? What published facts do you have which support your contention that facts (not self-justifying rumors) point in another direction? What direction would that be exactly?

"but you are the Queen of Irony."

And people who defend murderers as bhaktas of God are what exactly if not ironic?

[HSD1]

Punjabi Police is overwhelmingly represented by Sikhs. Does anyone in right mind believe they represent Sikhi? How does a mob of goondas politically inflamed by politicians equal Hindu Dharmic teaching? Politically motivated mobs who commit crimes reflect ADHARMA and not any DHARMIC spirituality at all. They reflect criminality and not spiritual teaching of any kind.

Why do you think if criminal goodas tortured and attacked Sikhs that it is somekind of justification of shooting up a gurdwara with unarmed women and children in there? I do not blame Sikhi for that idiocy. I blame the idiots.

So what does the shootings in Vienna have to do with sikhism? Where is your proof that the punjab police are overwhelmingly sikh? " that it is somekind of justification of shooting up a gurdwara with unarmed women and children in there", like i said, ask the indian army about 84.

From the published Vienna newspaper article.

"Police spokesman Michael Takacs earlier said the scene was "like a battlefield."

...Witnesses in Vienna spoke of chaos. "Everybody was praying and then it started with knives and a pistol," said Nermal Singh,

"It was like war. There was lots of blood everywhere.

barefooted, his shirt bloodied and his head bandaged from what he saidwas a knife wound. Ram, 72, said, "I heard four to five shots" in thetemple. "People started screaming, children were crying as they ranout."

Can you prove to me that shots fired into a crowd are incapable of ricocheting and injuring innocents? Anyone who fires a gun into a crowded building is an idiot. 16 people were injured. Was entire sangat the target or just the Ravidasi babas? What published facts do you have which support your contention that facts (not self-justifying rumors) point in another direction? What direction would that be exactly?

You said "Shooting into crowd with children" and have provided no proof to back up that statement. Are you a ballistics expert? Do you work for the police? In that case you have to shut up about ricochets of bullets. It has already been proved that the bodyguards of the 'baba' were well armed and fired their guns. It is far more likely that they tried to shoot the assassins and ended up firing into the crowd themselves. If the baba was at the back of the room, the assassins would have rushed forward, with the sangat to their back. Unless the assassins were firing over their own shoulders it is unlikely they killed any civilians. The fake baba's bodyguards would have had to aim in the direction of the crowd as that is where the assassins would have come from. The baba could have ordered his bodyguards to shoot, especially if he realised his time had come. As the baba lay dying, some of the sangat may have rushed forward to see if he was ok, at which point his body guards may have confused them as more assassins, and inflicted further injury on them. That makes a lot more sense than the nonsense you peddle.

And people who defend murderers as bhaktas of God are what exactly if not ironic?

As bad as those who ignore or downplay murderous acts in other places.

[HarjasDevi]

So you are saying the Ravidasi assassination was revenge for 1984? How exactly, and WHY did 1984 and Punjab police repression get into the discussion except you are using it as some kind of justification of anything?

Do you really think the Punjab police were all Hindus? That their brutality reflects something about Sanatana Dharma and not lack of education and corrupted system of bribes inherited from British Raj since formation of Indian state? You are incapable of separating out corruptions from generalized blame of anything Hindu?

"like i said, ask the indian army about 84."

What kind of response is this? It was a SIKH general who planned Operation Bluestar. Why aren't you blaming him?

"You said "Shooting into crowd with children" and have provided no proofto back up that statement. Are you a ballistics expert? Do you work forthe police?"

Actually I am an RN who worked for 20 years in intensive care and emergency room and spent exactly one year working for the Sheriff's dept. And I can categorically state that innocent bystanders are injured and die from ricocheting bullets shot by thugs. Not only that, but I am honest with the fact pattern as established by the printed news and not relying on unpublished hearsay tending to exonerate the accused.

"As bad as those who ignore or downplay murderous acts in other places."

By what insane distortion of logic do you falsely portray me as some defender or supporter of Operation Bluestar? But fanatical Talibani Sikhs who murder Ravidasi Baba should not be defended while pointing fingers at the innocents who were killed. No. What a horrible way to disgrace the shaheedi of victims of Operation Bluestar by using their suffering as some justification of Vienna shootings.

Edited February 4, 2010 by HarjasKaur

[HSD1]

So you are saying the Ravidasi assassination was revenge for 1984? How exactly, and WHY did 1984 and Punjab police repression get into the discussion except you are using it as some kind of justification of anything?

Do you really think the Punjab police were all Hindus? That their brutality reflects something about Sanatana Dharma and not lack of education and corrupted system of bribes inherited from British Raj since formation of Indian state? You are incapable of separating out corruptions from generalized blame of anything Hindu?

No i am not saying the ravidassia incident is connected to 84. But one abhorrent attack in a holy place is not too different to an attack in another. I hope you can at least see that.

My point about the punjab police is that they have sikhs and hindus in them. But they are an organization of the hindustan government. The british raj is what gave birth to hindustan. The british raj in turn absorbed much of the status of the mughal empire. Which makes hindustan today a neo-Mughal empire. Her army and police are the modern versions of the vicious Mughal armies who tried to stop the Khalsa Militia taking the Punjab and cutting the mughals off from the rest of the muslim world. These neo-mughals may not be muslim, but our gurus taught us that hinduism and islam can be used by its followers to nefarious ends. That includes the leaders of hindustan, whether they answer to islam/hinduism/capitalism. So if hindustan today is the bastard child of the muslim mughal oppression, what does it say about all your theories concerning love of hindustan, hindu dharam etc? Coupled with the fact you blame all sikhs for things that a few sikhs do, whilst making excuses for hindustanis, it just leads to a lot of confusion as to what you are trying to put across. Do you even know yourself?

What kind of response is this? It was a SIKH general who planned Operation Bluestar. Why aren't you blaming him?

He was always a hindustani before being a sikh. He even says so himself. Its also clear to me that the propaganda that the british used to neuter the old Khalsa has been passed onto the hindustanis in 1947. There will always be sikhs who fight on the wrong side. It was so in every war since the dawn of the Khalsa. Our enemies are good with their sweet words, and we sikhs are too proud to put unity before petty differences, so this will always be the way. Unfortunately it gives people like you the ammunition to spew rubbish. But not all of us are stupid enough to fall for it.

Actually I am an RN who worked for 20 years in intensive care and emergency room and spent exactly one year working for the Sheriff's dept. And I can categorically state that innocent bystanders are injured and die from ricocheting bullets shot by thugs. Not only that, but I am honest with the fact pattern as established by the printed news and not relying on unpublished hearsay tending to exonerate the accused.

What's an RN? I am glad that you agree the bullets shot by the body guards killed and wounded the sangat.

By what insane distortion of logic do you falsely portray me as some defender or supporter of Operation Bluestar? But fanatical Talibani Sikhs who murder Ravidasi Baba should not be defended while pointing fingers at the innocents who were killed. No. What a horrible way to disgrace the shaheedi of victims of Operation Bluestar by using their suffering as some justification of Vienna shootings.

Once again I am not justifying what happened in Vienna, and again would like to say that the two events are not connected. Funny thing is taliban means student according to some. So does the word sikh. You mention fanatical students, but what were they learning. You are what i would describe as a fanatical student, someone who studies, forms extreme views on the little she knows to only then learn a bit more and then have to change what she fights for. Not a clever way to go through life is it? And I am telling you this as a young man. Even i know that over excessive reaction is part of no real dharm. Rather than thinking your essays do any good, go for a walk in a park or visit the seaside. See the beauty of creation. All this arguing cant be good for you. All in all, chill out. Carry on like this and the mods will just boot you off, and all this time you used on here will have been of no use. So far it has been of no use. Dont waste time that could be better spent on helping heal a really broken world, rather than fighting over the moral high ground with people who see things for what they are.

[HarjasDevi]

"No i am not saying the ravidassia incident is connected to 84. But oneabhorrent attack in a holy place is not too different to an attack inanother. I hope you can at least see that."

The assassination of Chamar Ravidasi baba has no relationship to 1984 and no parallel can be inferred. It is completely unrelated. It is OBSCENE to equate any justification of the Vienna shooting based on injustice in the 1984 Golden Temple attack. I have never supported Operation Bluestar and have condemned it for years. What exactly is your point that if I support Sanatana Dharma I must be the equivilent of goondas who killed Sikhs? What is the point you are making with 1984? Did I ever justify government attack even once? Attack on ANY INNOCENTS be they Hindu, Muslim, Sikhs, Christian is REPREHENSIBLE AND CRIMINAL AND NEVER CAN BE JUSTIFIED.

My point about the punjab police is that they have sikhs and hindus inthem. But they are an organization of the hindustan government. Thebritish raj is what gave birth to hindustan... So if hindustan today is the bastard childof the muslim mughal oppression, what does it say about all yourtheories concerning love of hindustan, hindu dharam etc?

What do Punjab Police have to do with Vienna shooting? Hindustan is a land with a culture and shared heritage. Hindustan id a nation of many ethnic tribes and sects. During 1984 Hindustan was under oppression of Indira Gandhi and her son Sanjay, the wannabe dictator as evidenced by her public policies, heavy-handedness and "emergency."

But that is POLITICS. It is NOTHING to do with Sanatana Dharma as philosophical and spiritual teaching or wise and holy teachings of bhagats and sants. Why do you people CONSTANTLY pull out horrific selfish political violence of elite ruling power families as representing ANCIENT SRUTI TRUTHS ABOUT DHARMA WHICH IS IMPLIED BY TERM SANATAN?

Coupled withthe fact you blame all sikhs for things that a few sikhs do, whilstmaking excuses for hindustanis, it just leads to a lot of confusion asto what you are trying to put across. Do you even know yourself?

I did NOT blame SIKHI for actions of these goondas. I am appalled at the many Singhs here who have been defending the actions that happened in Vienna as any kind of example of Sikhi. Hindustani is a nationality, not a separate race or religion. Sikhs who live in India are Hindustanis by virtue of birth. But government of India from inception has been secular and not Hindu. The section of society which wants a Hindu Rastra, the RSS are NOT responsible for the Congress Party politics of 1984. Individuals within it have both condemned and supported the Congress actions. But both are POLITICAL and not RELIGIOUS organizations and do not represent spiritual religious philosophies. So why are you condemning the spiritual philosophies I am trying to discuss with modern politics?

Indira Gandhi married a Parsi Muslim. Her son Sanjay married a Sikh. Her son Rajiv married a Christian. Her grandchildren are Christian and have married Christians. Pray tell where are the Hindus in the ruling Gandhi family please?

Can you tell me which "Hindustanis" am I defending? Can you give me at least one name? I am trying to support sanatan philosophical heritage which belongs to Sikhi. I am trying to show the evils of separatism and anti-Hindu animosity which generalizes whole population and not hold accountable those actual criminals which includes as many sardars in Punjab Police force.

I think the move rejecting Sikhism by Dera Ballan is sad. I do not support it. But as long as people are publically praising the shooters, how will this ever lead to reconciliation with estranged elements of the community? If I condemn assassinations of the Chamar baba as extremist, which "Hindustani's am I defending exactly?" And which "entire community of Sikhs" am I condemning?

Do you think I am the only person with the opinion that modern Sikh institutions are politically corrupted and not representing Dharmic spirituality? How is this condeming "Sikhs" and defending or excusing horror of criminals implicated in Indian state massacres? Did you even bother to read my article about Sruti, Shabad and NAAM? My interest is in Sanatana Dharma as inclusive spiritual philosophy not as politics or tribalism or casteism or whatever derailing non-issue people want to attribute to my views.

"He was always a hindustani before being a sikh. "

The point is made that Operation Bluestar cannot be blamed blindly on Hindu religion or believers in Hindu spirituality. Of course the GENERAL of the ARMY is a loyal patriot to his nation of Hindustan. He is a secular and not a religious person. His attack on Golden Temple was an evil miscalculation which cost the Nation dearly. I do not support it. I have always condemned it. Be clear at least on that point. But you can't wildly and fanatically blame Hindu's and Hinduism for these calculated political power struggles. General Brar did no make attack on Harimandir Sahib to persecute own Sikhs, but did in fact act as a repressive force follwoing dictates of the dictator. And it cost her dearly too. Notice, I never ever once in my life defended Indira Gandhi as anything more than a murderer who got her just deserts EVEN as she was shot to death unarmed. And REASON BEING, she was guilty of murder and executed for it.

But killing an unarmed baba for "disrespect" when own sharabis are disrespecting and do not get same death penalty is warped justice. Either we must kill everybody who does beadbi or kill nobody. But it cannot be killing of Chamar baba and not of own Jatts who do the same. He was a Ravidasi baba and it must be ascertained whether he was following traditions of Sant Mat and if he was violating SRM, then Gursikhs would be within rights to PEACEABLY ASSEMBLE and remove Guru Granth Sahib from premises. But resorting to shooting up the Gurdhera is BUTCHERY.

Unfortunately it gives people like you the ammunition to spew rubbish.

The fact that the evil brahmin Hindu conspiracy is aided and abetted by powerful influential Sikh forces such as General Brar and Chief of Police KPS Gill is not rubbish. It is EVIDENCE that these injustices are NOT SIKH RELIGION VERSUS HINDU RELIGION ISSUES. So why are these politics used to demonize ancient Hindu spiritual philosophy which existed long before existence of modern Indian state? THAT is the rubbish. Sikhs shouldn't stick together with some herd mentality to defend Sikhs. Khalsa should defend TRUTH AND JUSTICE, not own political or pind self-interest. If some Singhs have done wrong, why can't Sikhs say so? Why do Singhs have to blindly be loyal to criminals in own Panth simply to show solidarity against Chamars or Hindus or whoever is the enemy of the day?

"What's an RN? I am glad that you agree the bullets shot by the body guards killed and wounded the sangat. "

I am a registered Nurse who has worked decades with gunshot and trauma victims of all kinds. And I did not make the claim that Ravidasi body guards fired shots which killed own baba. Let me share a bit of legal point of view.

When someone in commission of a crime causes circumstances to arise in which another party reacts to the first crime... as in self-defense, any culpability for the reaction to the crime, caused by the crime becomes the liability of the criminal who set the chain of events in motion.

So for example, suppose a bad man kidnaps a young girl. If while attempting to escape and save her life the young girl picks up and fires a shotgun in the direction of the bad man, if due to her extreme distress she misfires and wounds or kills a woman walking down the street... I assure you, the first criinal will be charged for setting the chain of events into motion which caused the destruction of life and property. You aren't exonerated for causing the duress which results in use of equal force in self-defense.

By going into a temple, where there are bodyguards published as reporting death threats, and pulling a gun and firing at the preacher... the first crime committed set into motion a chain of events where equal force is justified to protect life. And sadly for those involved will find the law very harsh and the Courts to blame any injuries resulting therefrom as being conditioned by the first factor, those who pulled the guns and fired first.

As to whether bodyguards bullets could also have hit innocents in the sangat? This is undisputed. What parties fired guns in the first place? THOSE actions are blameworthy and carry the responsibility of crime in every instance that followed from it.

If I break into your house and shot your wife, and you shot me and the bullet travels through, wounding me slightly but killing your daughter...are you responsible in this set of facts? No. I am. Because i caused you to resort to shooting back to defend yourself and under stress to misfire and kill own daughter. Do you understand veer ji? Those would be actions of a CRIMINAL, NOT A BHAGAT AND NOT A SIKH.

Bhagats of God and Sikhs of Guru don't jeopardize innocents by taking guns into public temple and firing shots to assassinate the babas.

"Once again I am not justifying what happened in Vienna, and again would like to say that the two events are not connected."

Okay, I can accept that. But others on this thread ARE DEFENDING AND EXCUSING. And I was objecting to that as extremist Talibani violence to eliminate opposing views.

Funny thing is taliban means student according to some. So does theword sikh. You mention fanatical students, but what were they learning.You are what i would describe as a fanatical student,

Taliban may mean student, but the political Taliban who hang, rape, sell into prostition, deal drugs, wage war, force jizhia, throw acid in the face of school girls for not wearing hijab, etc are certainly not disciples of God. They are even condemned by own Muslim community. Why do you equate me with Taliban now?

Taliban rule = frequent assassinations and mutilations of opponents and those who have different beliefs or practices.

Carry on like this and the mods will just boot you off,

I'm sure there is a concerted effort by several people to achieve exactly this. Why should I be silent and only those who are praising killers of Ravidasi baba as bhagats only allowed to voice an opinion? WHY exactly can I not share own views without others engaging in personal attacks and rude insults which do not even discuss the issues? Who exactly am I rudely insulting? The "bhagats" who shot up the Ravidasi sangat? Well if I get banned for it I will consider it point of honor that at least I spoke up and didn't cater to popular opinion.

Edited February 5, 2010 by HarjasKaur

[HSD1]

The assassination of Chamar Ravidasi baba has no relationship to 1984 and no parallel can be inferred. It is completely unrelated. It is OBSCENE to equate any justification of the Vienna shooting based on injustice in the 1984 Golden Temple attack. I have never supported Operation Bluestar and have condemned it for years. What exactly is your point that if I support Sanatana Dharma I must be the equivilent of goondas who killed Sikhs? What is the point you are making with 1984? Did I ever justify government attack even once? Attack on ANY INNOCENTS be they Hindu, Muslim, Sikhs, Christian is REPREHENSIBLE AND CRIMINAL AND NEVER CAN BE JUSTIFIED.

The lady doth protest too much!

What do Punjab Police have to do with Vienna shooting? Hindustan is a land with a culture and shared heritage. Hindustan id a nation of many ethnic tribes and sects. During 1984 Hindustan was under oppression of Indira Gandhi and her son Sanjay, the wannabe dictator as evidenced by her public policies, heavy-handedness and "emergency."

But that is POLITICS. It is NOTHING to do with Sanatana Dharma as philosophical and spiritual teaching or wise and holy teachings of bhagats and sants. Why do you people CONSTANTLY pull out horrific selfish political violence of elite ruling power families as representing ANCIENT SRUTI TRUTHS ABOUT DHARMA WHICH IS IMPLIED BY TERM SANATAN?

No we dont. But you see it that way. Which is more a problem you have rather than any real reflection on our attitudes.

I did NOT blame SIKHI for actions of these goondas. I am appalled at the many Singhs here who have been defending the actions that happened in Vienna as any kind of example of Sikhi. Hindustani is a nationality, not a separate race or religion. Sikhs who live in India are Hindustanis by virtue of birth. But government of India from inception has been secular and not Hindu. The section of society which wants a Hindu Rastra, the RSS are NOT responsible for the Congress Party politics of 1984. Individuals within it have both condemned and supported the Congress actions. But both are POLITICAL and not RELIGIOUS organizations and do not represent spiritual religious philosophies. So why are you condemning the spiritual philosophies I am trying to discuss with modern politics?

Indira Gandhi married a Parsi Muslim. Her son Sanjay married a Sikh. Her son Rajiv married a Christian. Her grandchildren are Christian and have married Christians. Pray tell where are the Hindus in the ruling Gandhi family please?

Can you tell me which "Hindustanis" am I defending? Can you give me at least one name? I am trying to support sanatan philosophical heritage which belongs to Sikhi. I am trying to show the evils of separatism and anti-Hindu animosity which generalizes whole population and not hold accountable those actual criminals which includes as many sardars in Punjab Police force.

I think the move rejecting Sikhism by Dera Ballan is sad. I do not support it. But as long as people are publically praising the shooters, how will this ever lead to reconciliation with estranged elements of the community? If I condemn assassinations of the Chamar baba as extremist, which "Hindustani's am I defending exactly?" And which "entire community of Sikhs" am I condemning?

Do you think I am the only person with the opinion that modern Sikh institutions are politically corrupted and not representing Dharmic spirituality? How is this condeming "Sikhs" and defending or excusing horror of criminals implicated in Indian state massacres? Did you even bother to read my article about Sruti, Shabad and NAAM? My interest is in Sanatana Dharma as inclusive spiritual philosophy not as politics or tribalism or casteism or whatever derailing non-issue people want to attribute to my views.

If you love hindustan so much, why dont you go and live there then? No sikh is defending what happened in Vienna. Most of us dont really care. If we dont feel the need to go all out to condemn something that we dont know everything about, it doesnt mean we agree with it.

What are the evils of seperatism? The Khalsa Raj was independant of British Hindustan. So was that sikh state evil? And were does it say that you have to be a 'hindu' to be a hindustani? Therefore your ranting about muslims, parsis etc in the governing family is just an obsolete smokescreen.

The point is made that Operation Bluestar cannot be blamed blindly on Hindu religion or believers in Hindu spirituality. Of course the GENERAL of the ARMY is a loyal patriot to his nation of Hindustan. He is a secular and not a religious person. His attack on Golden Temple was an evil miscalculation which cost the Nation dearly. I do not support it. I have always condemned it. Be clear at least on that point. But you can't wildly and fanatically blame Hindu's and Hinduism for these calculated political power struggles. General Brar did no make attack on Harimandir Sahib to persecute own Sikhs, but did in fact act as a repressive force follwoing dictates of the dictator. And it cost her dearly too. Notice, I never ever once in my life defended Indira Gandhi as anything more than a murderer who got her just deserts EVEN as she was shot to death unarmed. And REASON BEING, she was guilty of murder and executed for it.

But killing an unarmed baba for "disrespect" when own sharabis are disrespecting and do not get same death penalty is warped justice. Either we must kill everybody who does beadbi or kill nobody. But it cannot be killing of Chamar baba and not of own Jatts who do the same. He was a Ravidasi baba and it must be ascertained whether he was following traditions of Sant Mat and if he was violating SRM, then Gursikhs would be within rights to PEACEABLY ASSEMBLE and remove Guru Granth Sahib from premises. But resorting to shooting up the Gurdhera is BUTCHERY.

So what is hindustan then? The leaders, army and rioters all in 84 showed it is no place for a sikh patriot. Have you ever been to india?

But what about those who did protest and were roughed up? There are many deras that are fronts for brothels, weapons smuggling and corruption. Sometimes the Khalsa needs to deal with criminals with violence. It taught the mughals, afghans and hindu hill rajahs a good lesson, and you cant expect sikhs to constantly use the 'shaheedi jatha' attitude to every problem.

I am a registered Nurse who has worked decades with gunshot and trauma victims of all kinds. And I did not make the claim that Ravidasi body guards fired shots which killed own baba. Let me share a bit of legal point of view.

When someone in commission of a crime causes circumstances to arise in which another party reacts to the first crime... as in self-defense, any culpability for the reaction to the crime, caused by the crime becomes the liability of the criminal who set the chain of events in motion.

So for example, suppose a bad man kidnaps a young girl. If while attempting to escape and save her life the young girl picks up and fires a shotgun in the direction of the bad man, if due to her extreme distress she misfires and wounds or kills a woman walking down the street... I assure you, the first criinal will be charged for setting the chain of events into motion which caused the destruction of life and property. You aren't exonerated for causing the duress which results in use of equal force in self-defense.

By going into a temple, where there are bodyguards published as reporting death threats, and pulling a gun and firing at the preacher... the first crime committed set into motion a chain of events where equal force is justified to protect life. And sadly for those involved will find the law very harsh and the Courts to blame any injuries resulting therefrom as being conditioned by the first factor, those who pulled the guns and fired first.

As to whether bodyguards bullets could also have hit innocents in the sangat? This is undisputed. What parties fired guns in the first place? THOSE actions are blameworthy and carry the responsibility of crime in every instance that followed from it.

If I break into your house and shot your wife, and you shot me and the bullet travels through, wounding me slightly but killing your daughter...are you responsible in this set of facts? No. I am. Because i caused you to resort to shooting back to defend yourself and under stress to misfire and kill own daughter. Do you understand veer ji? Those would be actions of a CRIMINAL, NOT A BHAGAT AND NOT A SIKH.

Bhagats of God and Sikhs of Guru don't jeopardize innocents by taking guns into public temple and firing shots to assassinate the babas.

The bodyguards fired with intent. They are not exempt from blame.

Taliban may mean student, but the political Taliban who hang, rape, sell into prostition, deal drugs, wage war, force jizhia, throw acid in the face of school girls for not wearing hijab, etc are certainly not disciples of God. They are even condemned by own Muslim community. Why do you equate me with Taliban now?

So the taliban are not a reflection of any muslim ideology? That's funny, that's not what they say. Same goes for the RSS and many violent and vicious hindu organizations. But just because they dont make front page news with what they do, we should ignore them right?

I'm sure there is a concerted effort by several people to achieve exactly this. Why should I be silent and only those who are praising killers of Ravidasi baba as bhagats only allowed to voice an opinion? WHY exactly can I not share own views without others engaging in personal attacks and rude insults which do not even discuss the issues? Who exactly am I rudely insulting? The "bhagats" who shot up the Ravidasi sangat? Well if I get banned for it I will consider it point of honor that at least I spoke up and didn't cater to popular opinion.

Waheguru gave you your time on this earth. I dont think it would be appreciated that you spend most of your time arguing mute points. What will it achieve? Absolutely nothing.

[HarjasDevi]

"No sikh is defending what happened in Vienna. Most of us dont really care."

You are a liar. Below is the mentality I was objecting to, claiming the shooting death was justifiable on grounds of beadbi EVEN while done in Gurdwara with families and children and same as calling the shooters as "baghats/bhaktas." So your statement that no Sikh is defending is not the truth. Your whole political argument about Indian politics and 1984 is off the beam and no justification for shooting Ravidasi baba who, according to Akal Takhat own statement, Ravidasis are historical part of Sikhs. So we aren't even talking Hindu versus Sikh. What are YOU talking about then? Why aren't you talking about the topic which was Ravidasi Dharm and their response to the shooting?

And I repeat my point, how can you expect Ballan sangat to act any differently then to split from Sikh Panth when publically on every Sikh forum is blindly praising the killers...in the absence of all the facts? THIS is how to promote Panthic Ekta?

the rumalla on the feet on the nindaks was done 1 week before the timeof the commeuppance of the pakhandi. in 2002 ish when he came to uk, hewas having people bow to him in Aad Guru's hazoori, in the Ravidasgurdwaras, and they stopped him.

at vienna, the week before the nindaks killing, a person objected tothe pakhandis beadbi, he was hospitalized by the nindaks followers, andlater died. The people who went the week after went prepared fordefence should it be necessary, and when the same thugs, im sorry ishould have said bhagats tried to beat these guys up, they and theirpakhandi baba got their dues.

The bodyguards fired with intent. They are not exempt from blame.

They're bodyguards. It's their job to defend the life of their charge. Is it the job of Sikhs to go into Ravidasi temples and shoot up the sangat? Is this what using force when all means have failed means? I mean, seriously, not to advocate that assassination was valid, but couldn't even have been done in private not to jeopardize anybody else? Who in right mind can defend this?

And how in hell can 1984 politics of government of India be blamed for it? And point about Indira Gandhi's family not even being Hindu is critical to the accusations that she acted against Sikhs as a rebid Hindu fanatic. If her own husband was Muslim, and her sons were married to a Sikh and a Christian, and all Priyanka and Rahul Gandhi are married to Christians it says something very loud and clear about Indira Gandhi's motives and loyalties not being to radical Hindu contingent. She was motivated by power politics. So you should all stop blaming Hindus and justifying acts of violence against traditional Sikhs who blend sanatan practices with Sikhi.

Because that IS what this is about.

That IS why videos justify Sant Ramanand of Ballan's death blamed on placing tilak on Shri Guru Granth Sahib and acting as traditional sant baba. So Sikhs obviously do care and are promoting and defending it all over the internet. Stop lying. You're not even convincing. Just look at the degree of hate and intolerance on this forum for anything sanatan.

Bhagats of God don't kill unarmed old men and pretend it's "defense" of religion.

If you love hindustan so much, why dont you go and live there then?

That really is what this is about isn't it? Hatred of Hindustan and anything remotely associated with Hindu. Else why aren't you discussing WHY the Ravidasis would be upset with Sikhi Panth in the first place over this killing? Why aren't you acknowledging that Ravidasis are part of Sikh Dharam?

Are you saying Akal Takhat should now add assassinations to excommunications as list of punishments? Since Akal Takhat has even condemned the Vienna shooting, then some Sikhs acted outside the scope of mainstream Sikhi. And then that act should be condemned by mainstream Sikhs. So why condemn me for condemning it? You don't even make any sense.

"Guru Shri Ravidas was highly respectable in Sikhcommunity and the Sikh community has high esteem for thefollowers of Shri Guru Ravidas as they are inseparable part ofSikh fold," SGPC president Avtar Singh Makkar told reportershere."

Ravidassia community part of Sikh faith: SGPC

[HSD1]

You are a liar. Below is the mentality I was objecting to, claiming the shooting death was justifiable on grounds of beadbi EVEN while done in Gurdwara with families and children and same as calling the shooters as "baghats/bhaktas." So your statement that no Sikh is defending is not the truth. Your whole political argument about Indian politics and 1984 is off the beam and no justification for shooting Ravidasi baba who, according to Akal Takhat own statement, Ravidasis are historical part of Sikhs. So we aren't even talking Hindu versus Sikh. What are YOU talking about then? Why aren't you talking about the topic which was Ravidasi Dharm and their response to the shooting?

And I repeat my point, how can you expect Ballan sangat to act any differently then to split from Sikh Panth when publically on every Sikh forum is blindly praising the killers...in the absence of all the facts? THIS is how to promote Panthic Ekta?

Exactly, it's a sikh issue. You're not sikh. So get lost. People like you learnt a lesson on the sikhnet forum, unfortunately no one has the time or patience on here to play your games. Go and try shaadi.com, you'll get what you're after there.

They're bodyguards. It's their job to defend the life of their charge. Is it the job of Sikhs to go into Ravidasi temples and shoot up the sangat? Is this what using force when all means have failed means? I mean, seriously, not to advocate that assassination was valid, but couldn't even have been done in private not to jeopardize anybody else? Who in right mind can defend this?

And how in hell can 1984 politics of government of India be blamed for it? And point about Indira Gandhi's family not even being Hindu is critical to the accusations that she acted against Sikhs as a rebid Hindu fanatic. If her own husband was Muslim, and her sons were married to a Sikh and a Christian, and all Priyanka and Rahul Gandhi are married to Christians it says something very loud and clear about Indira Gandhi's motives and loyalties not being to radical Hindu contingent. She was motivated by power politics. So you should all stop blaming Hindus and justifying acts of violence against traditional Sikhs who blend sanatan practices with Sikhi.

Because that IS what this is about.

That IS why videos justify Sant Ramanand of Ballan's death blamed on placing tilak on Shri Guru Granth Sahib and acting as traditional sant baba. So Sikhs obviously do care and are promoting and defending it all over the internet. Stop lying. You're not even convincing. Just look at the degree of hate and intolerance on this forum for anything sanatan.

Bhagats of God don't kill unarmed old men and pretend it's "defense" of religion.

We're going around in circles. It has been pointed out that peaceful means have been tried. But to hindus like you, you expect us sikhs to constantly use peaceful methods as it prolongs your pathetic existance. You taunt and prod us but when the snake bites the chest, you cry in pain that you did not deserve it. Such is the extent of your hypocrisy.

That really is what this is about isn't it? Hatred of Hindustan and anything remotely associated with Hindu. Else why aren't you discussing WHY the Ravidasis would be upset with Sikhi Panth in the first place over this killing? Why aren't you acknowledging that Ravidasis are part of Sikh Dharam?

Are you saying Akal Takhat should now add assassinations to excommunications as list of punishments? Since Akal Takhat has even condemned the Vienna shooting, then some Sikhs acted outside the scope of mainstream Sikhi. And then that act should be condemned by mainstream Sikhs. So why condemn me for condemning it? You don't even make any sense.

"Guru Shri Ravidas was highly respectable in Sikhcommunity and the Sikh community has high esteem for thefollowers of Shri Guru Ravidas as they are inseparable part ofSikh fold," SGPC president Avtar Singh Makkar told reportershere."Ravidassia community part of Sikh faith: SGPC

All I said is that if you love Hindustan so much you should go and live there. But you think that this is some kind of attack or insecurity of mine. Err no. You're erratic and bizarre hysteria is just plain dumb. No where have i shown any true hate of hindus and hindustan. Yet when i tell you to practice what you preach, you run behind the screen of accusations, insult and lies. I hope the mods take note and limit Harjas's contributions to one subforum only. Disease needs to be quarantined. You are ill in the head. Once again, i will not bother responding to anything you post in reply to this as I have far better things to do than come up with essays of ignorance like yourself.

Edited February 8, 2010 by HSD

[HarjasDevi]

Exactly, it's a sikh issue. You're not sikh. So get lost. People likeyou learnt a lesson on the sikhnet forum, unfortunately no one has thetime or patience on here to play your games. Go and try shaadi.com,you'll get what you're after there.

You don't have the right to tell me to get lost from an open forum Ji. Moreover, it is a forum which includes Sikh, sanatan as well as mainstream sampraday sections, Hindu, Christian and Muslim sections. So on what basis exactly do you decide I have no right to express an opinion here?

I won't debate with you your definition of what is a Sikh or not. I consider Shri Guru Granth Sahib to be my root Guru Maharaaj even as I have accepted a dedhari Gurudev. But my Sikhi or paapi or however you take it isn't at issue here. And I have every right to join in discussion without derailing attacks that invalidate me as a person for having an opinion.

We're going around in circles. It has been pointed out that peacefulmeans have been tried.

We don't have all the public facts as the trial isn't even on-going. What we have are RUMORS attempting to justify the killing and the insane way it was carried out in a public place of worship in front of the Guru Granth Sahib and injuring members of the sangat. And this unfortunate event led to the problems of portion of Ravidasia Panth to split from Sikh Panth. That IS the topic. Akal Takhat has formally denounced the shooting. So how can you insist that "peaceful means have been tried?"

Peaceful means have been tried, and so now some self-righteous thugs feel justified to wage war on Ravidasi sangat? The fact pattern is just outrageous.

Now, your illogical comment here:

But to hindus like you, you expect us sikhs toconstantly use peaceful methods as it prolongs your pathetic existance.You taunt and prod us but when the snake bites the chest, you cry inpain that you did not deserve it. Such is the extent of your hypocrisy.

Hindu's like YOU expect US Sikhs....

What has that to do with Ravidasi issue Jio? Oh wait....

expect US Sikhs to constantly use peaceful methods as it prolongs YOUR pathetic existence...

So now you would swagger about like a bold killer of Hindu people, is that it? Is that the degree of your insanity? Why are you saying the precious human life is pathetic?

1. According to Akal Takhat mainstream, Ravidasias are SIKHS not Hindus.

2. I would expect Sikhs as shishyas of Righteous Dharam which Guru Sahibaan defended to uphold righteousness and not anonymous "hit squads" who may or may not have "used every means" prior to the assassination. As it has been reported in papers that the police received reports of "Death threats" against the babas. And Death Threats are hardly "using every means." Rather it seems resorting to thugism in the first instance.

3. Why are you threatening Hindu's lives over this incident now? What have the Hindu's done exactly that you feel so confident before God to make such a claim like a death threat? What did I personally do to someone like you jio? What was the wrong doing before you just to the thug-bit in the first instance and proclaim my life a pathetic existance which PEACEFUL METHODS only PROLONG?

You talk like a killer, not like a Sikh. Are you a Sikh or a killer veer ji?

"All I said is that if you love Hindustan so much you should go and livethere. But you think that this is some kind of attack or insecurity ofmine. Err no. You're erratic and bizarre hysteria is just plain dumb.No where have i shown any true hate of hindus and hindustan. Yet when itell you to practice what you preach, you run behind the screen ofaccusations, insult and lies."

You don't have the right to tell me where to go. You don't have the right to make personal and public judgments of me. We are discussing the Ravidasia topic as it relates to this thread on the forum. I'm perfectly calm. How can you claim all this political evil of Hindus and Indian government as being some irrational factor in the Ravidasi baba shooting, and then claim you don't hate Hindu's and HIndustan? How can you lose control of your words and be so reckless and to repudiate peaceful means as merely prolonging pathetic Hindu existance and expect anyone to believe you when you say you don't hate Hindus?

I hope the mods take note and limitHarjas's contributions to one subforum only. Disease needs to bequarantined. You are ill in the head. Once again, i will not botherresponding to anything you post in reply to this as I have far betterthings to do than come up with essays of ignorance like yourself.

Now you are calling my position as a sanatan Sikh as non-Sikh, and a mental illness, a pathetic existance that doesn't deserve peaceful means, and a disease that needs to be quarantined. And you are calling me hysterical.

WHY are you so hysterically afraid of my opinions? WHY do you seem so terribly threatened by my existence as to compare it with a disease that needs to be quarantined without right of peaceful means?

[Guest]

*Thread locked for being under review*