Status Of Devi/chandi In Sikh Theology?

HarjasDevi · February 10, 2010

Jaikaara writes:

i was told by soone to keep Shastar as the symbol for Chandi

Just for information purposes, Shri Chakra is the symbol of Chandi. Whereas the Khanda represents Kalika.

The worship of Devi in Shree chakra is regarded as the highest form of the Devi worship... Itis said that in the beginning God, who was one, wanted to become many and enjoy himself. As the first step to creation he created Devi - the total cosmic Female force. For the male part, out of his left he created Shiva, out of his middle he created Brahma and out of his right he created Vishnu. That is why many regard the Devi as more powerful than the Trinities and hence She is called Parashakti or Paradevi -Para meaning beyond. Chakra pooja or Yantra pooja

Parashakti is shown holding the power of Mahavishnu to represent the force of righteousness which destroys evil in the form of Sudarshana Chakr.

ਕੋਪ ਭਈ ਅਰਿ ਦਲ ਬਿਖੈ ਚੰਡੀ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਸੰਭਾਰ ॥

कोप भई अरि दल बिखै चंडी चक्र स्मभार ॥

Chandi in great anger, holding up her disc, within the enemy`s army;

ਏਕ ਮਾਰਿ ਕੈ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਕੀਏ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਤੇ ਕੀਨੇ ਚਾਰ ॥੪੨॥

एक मारि कै द्वै कीए द्वै ते कीने चार ॥४२॥

She cut off the warriors into halves and quarters.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji (SGPC translation) p. 186

HarjasDevi · February 11, 2010

For informational purposes only and submitted respectfully, I would like to clarify due to this response:

Also, whereas a Hindu might worship a geometrical shape made ofinterconnected triangles as representing Devi, for a Sikh any nakedshastar represents Chandi (who in turn represents Akal Purakh's Shakti)and can be namaskared when reciting Chandi di Var.

Shree Chakra Yantra symbol of Chandi/Durga

This is a misunderstanding of Hindu Mat as being actually representative of distortion. Whereas those foolish persons who actually misunderstand Divine Reality may indeed mistake the ritual for the relationship, the symbol for the reality. Hindu Mat believes in the ultimate Reality of only One God. That Oneness is manifest in this sansaar in multiple forms because of the veil of Mayayog and duality consciousness. So it is actually not correct to say that a Hindu worships triangles (and stones) whereas a Sikh worships the reality. Rather you are misunderstanding yantra as visual expression of mathematical symmetry and representing deeper teachings which are beyond conscious comprehension. The Chandi yantra, for example isn't Chandi. So no one would worship the symbolism while ignoring the Divine Reality represented. Chandi yantra is Shri Chakra yantra, and in this symbolism is triangular shapes encircled by a chakra. Everything has a deep yogic symbolism, but no one believes that God or His powers are mere triangular shapes. Those shapes are to focus the surti on so that the symbolic meaning sinks deep into the unconscious level of awareness, taking you beyond the mere superficiality of the visual representation of, say a murthi. Remember also that every word we speak and think with is also a symbolic representation, and a barrier to the True inner Reality of perceptual experience which is what every sadhaka is seeking.

Now, I am not saying that a Sikh needs this practice. I'm simply trying to clarify gross misinformation about Hindu Mat which in the sanatan tradition actually does share teachings which overlap with traditional Sikhi.

Chandi arose out of the shakti's of all the devatay in order to combat the demons. That is Her origin. among the many weapons She wields, one is the King of Weapons, and that is Sudarshana Chakra. Only Vishnu, Krishna and Shiva-Devi can wield the Sudarshana Chakra. It is in the scriptures, made of razor light. It pierces the heart of darkness in the world and exposes and destroys sin. That is it's symbolic representation. If someone is concentrating on Shri Chakra for sadhana purposes, it isn't to think about triangles. It is to place consciousness of the Light of God which is a Holy weapon to destroy evil, most especially our own paap. That is why the shakti of Durga/Chandi, who is Kalika comes with the demons head in hand. Because the symbolic meaning is that we ourselves are a sacrifice and must surrender our own egos, our own jeev, our own limited identity before we can merge with the Divine Totality which is Oneness. One must understand that Devi as the feminine aspect of Shivani is actually the Maha Guru of the whole world, cleansing darkness by force to lead us to Light. But one must first become inwardly purified of the defilements of disturbances of conscious thought (vrittis and vasanas) which create the illusion of our separation from Divine Wholeness (God) before one can wield Chandi's chakra, which is the power of God Himself in weapon form.

And the power to conquer the inner defilements of vrittis/thoughts and vasanas/inclinations is to wash the mind at the inward place of pilgrimage, the Triveni, the confluence of the three rivers.

Chhinnamasta%20Maa.jpg

The tantric Chinnamasta Devi is represented as sacrificing Her own head, out of Her neck flows three rivulets of blood representing the Ida, pingala and shushmana nadis which can only be accessed by surrender which is the root meaning of the world, simran, from simarana, literal remembrance of True Identity which comes about by becoming "other" directed and turning the consciousness away from ego to the God. Nama Smarana is thus a key practice of bhakti.

It says in the Guru Granth Sahib that by practising Simran one is purified and attains salvation or 'mukti'. This is because 'si-mar' means 'to die over' something for which one must kill their ego in order to have union with the ultimate truth or sat.

Meditating, meditating in remembrance, I have found peace.
(simar simar sukh paa-i-aa.)
—On page 202 of the Guru Granth Sahib, Guruji
writes:
This japnateaches a person who wishes to gain from this human life, one mustattain a higher spiritual state by become free of attachment byrealizing that all that is, is empty as outlined in the Heart SutraThereby, merit is acquired by devoutly repeating, comprehending andliving by the sacred word everyday so as to progressively reveal thedivine and ultimate truth to the person who earnestly seeks it:

Nām
, the incorruptible is beyond our comprehending.
At the same time, it is our constant companion and preserves allcreation. Therefore, truth will disclose itself unto us and lets usperceive it in our hearts. It is through earnestness that we can meetwith such a truth.
—Guru Ram Das says in Sarang ki var (Guru Granth Sahib,
1242):
Simran

Worship of Shri Chakra is the highest worship of Devi because it is worship of the True Reality that Devi represents, which is the Divine power of God in weapon form. It is the same weapon/Divine Light to kill our panj bhutas as is used to cleanse the world of evil in defense of Dharma. And thereby bring about the transformation to make a sant-sipahi.

Dhan Dhan Sant-Sipahi Shaheed Akali Nihang Singh Baba Deep Singh Ji Khalsa who is ever-living example of the Divine Truth.

jaikaara · February 11, 2010

harjas penji if the Gurus had mentioned worship of the CHakras we would have eagerly done the same. i dont think we should be mixing the hindu mat with sikh mat.

HarjasDevi · February 11, 2010

harjas penji if the Gurus had mentioned worship of the CHakras we would have eagerly done the same. i dont think we should be mixing the hindu mat with sikh mat.

lol, veer ji if Guru Sahib didn't want Sikhs to worship shastars, why then is Shastar mala in Gurbani (Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji)? I never said someone should worship Chandi, I was just explaining for information purposes because some Singh asked when he recited Chandi di Vaar to keep shastar to honor Chandi (I'm sure as representing Presence of AKAAL shakti). And for this I tried to explain that traditionally Chandi Devi does represent shastars but is known symbolically by the Sudarshana Chakra for Her victory of Light over darkness. That is all.

Hindu Mat, Sikh Mat, I'm sick of hearing it really. There is only One Mat, and that is be a true spiritual person whatever your background and just love people stop dividing endlessly. When we die, this body crumbles, and so does race, sex, class, caste, pind, religion, belief, brain, everything. Atma is only Light. Light comes from Light. eventually goes back merging into Light. Let's stop now. There is some wisdom in Hindu Mat, stop having an allergy.

ਅਥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਨਾਮ ॥

अथ स्री चक्र नाम ॥

The Description of the Names of Discus

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥

दोहरा ॥

DOHRA

ਕਵਚ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਕਹੋ ਅੰਤ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਅਰਿ ਦੇਹੁ ॥ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਨਾਮ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਕੇ ਜਾਨ ਚਤੁਰ ਜੀਅ ਲੇਹੁ ॥੨੮॥

कवच शबद प्रिथमै कहो अंत शबद अरि देहु ॥ सभ ही नाम क्रिपान के जान चतुर जीअ लेहु ॥२८॥

Putting the word "Kavach" in the beginning and adding the word Ar-deha at the end,

the wise people know all the other names of Kripaan.28.

ਸ਼ਤ੍ਰ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਕਹੋ ਅੰਤ ਦੁਸ਼ਟ ਪਦ ਭਾਖੁ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਨਾਮ ਜਗੰਨਾਥ ਕੋ ਸਦਾ ਹ੍ਰਿਦੈ ਮੋ ਰਾਖ ॥੨੯॥

शत्र शबद प्रिथमै कहो अंत दुशट पद भाखु ॥ सभै नाम जगंनाथ को सदा ह्रिदै मो राख ॥२९॥

The word "Shatru" is uttered in the beginning and the word "Dusht" is spoken at the end

and in this way all the names of Jagnnath are adopted in the heart.29.

ਪ੍ਰਿਥੀ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਭਨੋ ਪਾਲਕ ਬਹੁਰ ਉਚਾਰ ॥ ਸਕਲ ਨਾਮ ਸ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟੇਸ਼ ਕੇ ਸਦਾ ਹ੍ਰਿਦੈ ਮੋ ਧਾਰ ॥੩੦॥

प्रिथी शबद प्रिथमै भनो पालक बहुर उचार ॥ सकल नाम स्रिशटेश के सदा ह्रिदै मो धार ॥३०॥

Saying the word "Prithvi" in the beginning and then uttering the word "Paalak"

all the Names of the Lord are stuffed in the mind.30.

ਸ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟ ਨਾਮ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਕਹੋ ਬਹੁਰ ਉਚਾਰੋ ਨਾਥ ॥ ਸਕਲ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਮ ਈਸ ਕੇ ਸਦਾ ਬਸੋ ਜੀਅ ਸਾਥ ॥੩੧॥

स्रिशट नाम पहिले कहो बहुर उचारो नाथ ॥ सकल नामु मम ईस के सदा बसो जीअ साथ ॥३१॥

Uttering the word "Sarishti" in the beginning and then the word "Nath", all the

Names of the Lord are adopted in the heart.31.

ਸਿੰਘ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਭਾਖੋ ਪ੍ਰਖਮ ਬਾਹਨ ਬਹੁਰ ਉਚਾਰਿ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਨਾਮ ਜਗਮਾਤ ਕੇ ਲੀਜਹੁ ਸੁ ਕਬਿ ਸੁਧਾਰਿ ॥੩੨॥

सिंघ शबद भाखो प्रखम बाहन बहुर उचारि ॥ सभै नाम जगमात के लीजहु सु कबि सुधारि ॥३२॥

Uttering the word "Sarishti" in the beginning and then the word "Vahan", the poets

may in this way say all the Names of Durga, the mother of the world.32.

ਰਿਪੁ ਖੰਡਨ ਮੰਡਨ ਜਗਤ ਖਲ ਖੰਡਨ ਜਗ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਨਾਮ ਉਚਾਰੀਐ ਜਿਹ ਸੁਨ ਦੁਖ ਟਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੩੩॥

रिपु खंडन मंडन जगत खल खंडन जग माहि ॥ ता को नाम उचारीऐ जिह सुन दुख टरि जाहि ॥३३॥

That Lord is the destroyer of he enemies, Creator of the world and also the Vanquisher of the foolish people in this world.

His Name should be remembered, by hearing which all the suffering come to an end.33.

ਸਭ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਨ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਕਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਅੰਤ ਪਤਿ ਭਾਖੁ ॥ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਨਾਮ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਕੇ ਜਾਣ ਹ੍ਰਿਦੈ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਖੁ ॥੩੪॥

सभ शसत्रन के नाम कहि प्रिथम अंत पति भाखु ॥ सभ ही नाम क्रिपान के जाण ह्रिदै महि राखु ॥३४॥

Uttering the names of all the weapons, and saying the word "Pati" in the beginning and at the end,

all the names of Kripaan are adopted in the heart.34.

ਖੱਤ੍ਰਿਯਾਂ ਕੈ ਖੇਲਤ ਖੜਗ ਖਗ ਖੰਡੋ ਖੱਤ੍ਰਿਆਰ ॥ ਖੇਲਾਂਤਕ ਖਲ ਕੇ ਮਰੀ ਅਸਿ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਚਾਰ ॥੩੫॥

ख्त्रियां कै खेलत खड़ग खग खंडो ख्त्रिआर ॥ खेलांतक खल के मरी असि के नाम बिचार ॥३५॥

It plays in the limb of Kshatriyas; it is called Kharag, Khanda or the enemy of Kshatriyas;

it brings the end of war; it is the destroyer of hides; these are thoughtfully spoken names of the sword.35.

ਭੂਤਾਂਤਕ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਵਤੀ ਭਵਹਾ ਨਾਮ ਬਖਾਨ ॥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਭੈ ਹਰਨ ਸਭ ਕੋ ਕਰੌ ਕਲਯਾਨ ॥੬॥

भूतांतक स्री भगवती भवहा नाम बखान ॥ स्री भवानी भै हरन सभ को करौ कलयान ॥६॥

It is described as the goddess bringing the end of all elements and the destroyer of all the sufferings;

O the sword-Bhavani (goddess) ! You are the destroyer of fear; bring the happiness to all.36.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji (SGPC translation) pp. 1359-1360

ਕਾਲ ਤੁਹੀ ਕਾਲੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੇਗ ਅਰੁ ਤੀਰ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਨਿਸ਼ਾਨੀ ਜੀਤ ਕੀ ਆਜੁ ਤੁਹੀ ਜਗਬੀਰ ॥੫॥

काल तुही काली तुही तुही तेग अरु तीर ॥ तुही निशानी जीत की आजु तुही जगबीर ॥५॥

Thou art the KAL (death), thou art the goddess Kali, Thou art the saber and arrow,

Thou art the sign of victory today and Thou art the Hero of the world.5.

ਤੁਹੀ ਸੂਲ ਸੈਹਥੀ ਤਬਰ ਤੂੰ ਨਿਖੰਗ ਅਰੁ ਬਾਨ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਕਟਾਰੀ ਸੇਲ ਸਭ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਕਰਦ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ॥੬॥

तुही सूल सैहथी तबर तूं निखंग अरु बान ॥ तुही कटारी सेल सभ तुमही करद क्रिपान ॥६॥

Thou art the Sool (spike), Saihathi and Tabar (hatched), Thou art the Nikhang and Baan (arrow),

Thou art the Kataari, Sel, and all and Thou art the Kard (knife), and Kripaan (sword).6.

ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਅਸਤ੍ਰ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਸਿਪਰ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਕਵਚ ਨਿਖੰਗ ॥ ਕਵਚਾਂਤਕ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਬਨੇ ਤੁਮ ਬਯਾਪਕ ਸਰਬੰਗ ॥੭॥

शसत्र असत्र तुमही सिपर तुमही कवच निखंग ॥ कवचांतक तुमही बने तुम बयापक सरबंग ॥७॥

Thou art the arms and weapons, Thou art the Nikhang (quiver), and the Kavach (armour);

Thou art the destroyer of the armours and Thou art also all pervading.7.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਤੂੰ ਸਭ ਕਾਰਨ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੂੰ ਬਿੱਦਯਾ ਕੋ ਸਾਰ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਸਭ ਕੋ ਉਪਰਾਜਹੀ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਲੇਹੁ ਉਬਾਰ ॥੮॥

स्री तूं सभ कारन तुही तूं बि्दया को सार ॥ तुम सभ को उपराजही तुमही लेहु उबार ॥८॥

Thou art the cause of peace and prosperity and the essence of learning;

Thou art the creator of all and the redeemer of all.8.

ਤੁਮਹੀ ਦਿਨ ਰਜਨੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਜੀਅਨ ਉਪਾਇ ॥ ਕਉਤਕ ਹੇਰਨ ਕੇ ਨਮਿਤ ਤਿਨ ਮੋ ਬਾਦ ਬਢਾਇ ॥੯॥

तुमही दिन रजनी तुही तुमही जीअन उपाइ ॥ कउतक हेरन के नमित तिन मो बाद बढाइ ॥९॥

Thou art the day and night and Thou art the creator of all the Jivas (beings), causing disputes among them;

Thou does all this in order to view Thy own sport.9.

ਅਸ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਖੰਡੋ ਖੜਗ ਸੈਫ ਤੇਗ ਤਰਵਾਰ ॥ ਰੱਛ ਕਰੋ ਹਮਰੀ ਸਦਾ ਕਵਚਾਂਤਕ ਕਰਵਾਰ ॥੧੦॥

अस क्रिपान खंडो खड़ग सैफ तेग तरवार ॥ ्रछ करो हमरी सदा कवचांतक करवार ॥१०॥

O Lord ! Protect us by smashing the armour with the blows of Thy hands with the help of As, Kripaan (sword),

Khanda, Kharag, Saif, Tegh, and Talwaar (sword).10.

ਤੁਹੀ ਕਟਾਰੀ ਦਾੜ੍ਹ ਜਮ ਤੂੰ ਬਿਛੂਓ ਅਰੁ ਬਾਨ ॥ ਤੋ ਪਤਿ ਪਦ ਜੇ ਲੀਜੀਐ ਰੱਛ ਦਾਸ ਮੁਹਿ ਜਾਨੁ ॥੧੧॥

तुही कटारी दाड़्ह जम तूं बिछूओ अरु बान ॥ तो पति पद जे लीजीऐ ्रछ दास मुहि जानु ॥११॥

Thou art Kataari, Jamdaadh, Bichhuaa and Baan, O power ! I am a serf of Thy Lord`s feet, kindly Protect me.11.

ਬਾਂਕ ਬੱਜ੍ਰ ਬਿਛੂਓ ਤੁਹੀ ਤਬਰ ਤਰਵਾਰ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਕਟਾਰੀ ਸੈਹਥੀ ਕਰੀਐ ਰੱਛ ਹਮਾਰ ॥੧੨॥

बांक ब्ज्र बिछूओ तुही तबर तरवार ॥ तुही कटारी सैहथी करीऐ ्रछ हमार ॥१२॥

Thou art Baank, bajar, Bichhuaa, Tabar, and Talwaar, Thou art the kataari, and Saihathi; Protect me.12.

ਤੁਮੀ ਗੁਰਜ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਗਦਾ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਤੀਰ ਤੁਫੰਗ ॥ ਦਾਸ ਜਾਨ ਮੋਰੀ ਸਦਾ ਰੱਛਾ ਕਰੋ ਸਰਬੰਗ ॥੧੩॥

तुमी गुरज तुमही गदा तुमही तीर तुफंग ॥ दास जान मोरी सदा ्रछा करो सरबंग ॥१३॥

Thou art Gurj, Gadaa (mace), Teer (arrow) and Tufang; protect me ever considering me as Thy slave.13.

ਛੁਰੀ ਕਲਮ ਰਿਪ ਕਰਦ ਭਨਿ ਖੰਜਰ ਬੁਗਦਾ ਨਾਇ ॥ ਅਰਧ ਰਿਜਕ ਸਭ ਜਗਤ ਕੋ ਮੁਹਿ ਤੁਮ ਲੇਹੁ ਬਚਾਇ ॥੧੪॥

छुरी कलम रिप करद भनि खंजर बुगदा नाइ ॥ अरध रिजक सभ जगत को मुहि तुम लेहु बचाइ ॥१४॥

Thou art the Chhurri, the enemy-killing karad and the Khanjar (dagger) are Thy names;

Thou art the adorable Power of the world, kindly protect me.14.

ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਉਪਾਵਹੁ ਜਗਤ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਮਹੀਂ ਪੰਥ ਬਨਾਇ ॥ ਆਪ ਤੁਹੀ ਝਗਰਾ ਕਰੋ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਕਰੋ ਸਹਾਇ ॥੧੫॥

प्रिथम उपावहु जगत तुम तुमहीं पंथ बनाइ ॥ आप तुही झगरा करो तुमही करो सहाइ ॥१५॥

Firstly Thou createst the world, and then the Paths; then Thou crreatest the disputes and also help them.15.

ਮੱਛ ਕੱਛ ਬਾਰਾਹ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਮ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਨਾਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਬਉਧਾ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਜਗਤ ਕੋ ਸਾਰ ॥੧੬॥

म्छ क्छ बाराह तुम तुम बावन अवतार ॥ नार सिंघ बउधा तुहीं तुहीं जगत को सार ॥१६॥

Thou art Machh (fish incarnation), Kachh (tortoise incarnation) and Varaha (the boar incarnation);

Thou art also the Dwarf incarnation; Thou art also narsingh and Buddha and Thou art the Essence of the whole world.16.

ਤੁਹੀਂ ਰਾਮ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕੋ ਰੂਪ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਸਭ ਜਗਤ ਕੀ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਭੂਪ ॥੧੭॥

तुहीं राम स्री क्रिशन तुम तुहीं बिशन को रूप ॥ तुहीं प्रजा सभ जगत की तुहीं आप ही भूप ॥१७॥

Thou art Rama, Krishna and Vishnu; Thou art the subjects of the whole world and Thou art also the Sovereign.17.

ਤੁਹੀਂ ਬਿਪ੍ਰ ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਰੰਕ ਅਰੁ ਰਾਉ ॥ ਸ਼ਾਮ ਦਾਮ ਅਰੁ ਡੰਡ ਤੂੰ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਭੇਦ ਉਪਾਉ ॥੧੮॥

तुहीं बिप्र छत्री तुहीं तुहीं रंक अरु राउ ॥ शाम दाम अरु डंड तूं तुमही भेद उपाउ ॥१८॥

Thou art the Brahmin, Kshatriya, the king and the poor; Thou art also Sama, Sama, Dand and Bhed and also other remedies.18.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji pp. 1357-1358

Personally, Sikhs are just going to have to accept that people coming from Hindu Mat or a sanatan background cannot but read Gurbani as also sharing the same fundamental TRUTH. Purataan Singhs have ALWAYS worshipped AKAAL PURAKH (niragun AND sargun) in SHASTARS.

GuptSingh1699 · February 12, 2010

Why not read Guru Granth Sahib bani's instead?

Why read myths and poems if you got valuable Dhur Ki Bani of SGGS?

Chandi Di Vaar is not its real name, real name is VAAR DURGA KI. It is a Durga Paath.

Upto you to decide wheter to worship Ik Oankaar or Poet Shyam's Durga Mother.

singh2 · February 12, 2010

Chandi di vaar is in praise of akal purakh and not Durga.Durga is a fighter and is shown as fighting demons.

The main purpose is to infuse warrior spirit by imagery of battle scenes.Secondary point is to tell people that she is not an independent power but creation of akal purakh.

Edited February 12, 2010 by singh2

HarjasDevi · February 12, 2010

MODS, please remove the irrelevant off-topic anti-Dasam Granth propaganda.

To look at sanatan concepts in Shri Dasam ranth is NOT anti-Dasam Granth propaganda. Mind your nindya. And it's not irrevelvant as it relates to Chandi.

Ghostface Killah · February 12, 2010

MODS, please remove the irrelevant off-topic anti-Dasam Granth propaganda.

To look at sanatan concepts in Shri Dasam ranth is NOT anti-Dasam Granth propaganda. Mind your nindya. And it's not irrevelvant as it relates to Chandi.

I think he's on about gupt singh1699 and not you harjas kaur lol

Kaljug · February 12, 2010

I think he's on about gupt singh1699 and not you harjas kaur lol

Yep. I expect apologies and rasmalai to be sent to my address in abchal nagar by fedex.

K.

HarjasDevi · February 12, 2010

Oh sorry Jio. No ras malai for u tho. It's too fattening.

GuptSingh1699 · February 13, 2010

Durga is Durga not Akaal Purakh.

This is whom you worship by reading Vaar Durga Ki aka Chandi Di Vaar

http://www.vanadurga.org/durga_9_small.jpg

Chandi Di Vaar Stanza 55 says:

ਦੁਰਗਾ ਪਾਠ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਸਭੇ ਪਉੜੀਆਂ ॥

All the Pauris (stanzas) of this DURGA PAATH (Durga Prayer) have been composed;

ਫੇਰਿ ਨ ਜੂਨੀ ਆਇਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਇਹ ਗਾਇਆ ॥੫੫॥

And that person who sings it, will not take birth again.55.

ਇਤਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ ਸਮਾਪਤੰ ਸਤੁ ਸੁਭਮ ਸਤੁ

Edited February 13, 2010 by GuptSingh1699

singh2 · February 13, 2010

There is a saying in Punjabi " Kutte di pooachh sar gai par wat nahin gaya ( Dog's tail is burnt but twist is still there)".

This is the mentality of these nastik kala afghani chelas.They have neither read dasam Granth sahib nor

have intellect to understand this.

Durga is supreme God for Hindu sect. But Guru sahib while taking the base story of Durga from purana altered her characterstics. She was not shown as God but a creation of akal Purakh.Hence dimensions of Durga are different in Dasam granth.

ਤੈ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥

तै ही दुरगा साजि कै दैता दा नासु कराइआ ॥

O Lord! By creating Durga, Thou hast caused the destruction of demons.

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਘਾਇਆ ॥

तैथों ही बलु राम लै नाल बाणा दहसिरु घाइआ ॥

Rama received power from Thee and he killed Ravana with arrows.

Chandi di vaar

Dr Tarlochan singh who did reasearch on dasam granth and whose articles appeared in The sikh review in 1950s noted as below on this point.

The History and Compilation of the Dasm Granth (Part 2 - Philosophical Works) - Dr. Trilochan Singh

Quote

2. The second point of confusion is about some lines occurring at the end of Chandi Charitar giving the fruit of reciting the Chandi song.

These lines are:

a. First Chandi Charitar:

"For whatever purpose a person reads this life of Chandi, it shall definitely be granted to him."

b. Second Chandi Charitar:

"Even if a foolish person reads the life of Chandi, immense wealth will be bestowed on him. If a coward reads it he will be able to fight most bravely; if a yogi reads it he will attain siddhi and if a student reads it he will attain knowledge."

c. Third Panjabi version Durga ki var:

"He who recites Durga's life will not take birth again."

All these are not the opinions of Guru Gobind Singh. They are the opinions of the writers of the original which Guru Gobind Singh faithfully translated. To dissociate himself and his ideal from it, Guru Gobind Singh either added a short introduction or an epilogue to each of these versions of Chandi. Guru Gobind Singh's opinions, giving his own faith were:

(a) In the First Chandi Charitar he said:

deh siva bar mohe ehai, shubh carman te kabhu na taro, na daro ar so jab jae laro, niscai kar aprni jit karo, ar sikh hau apne hi man kau eh lalac hau gun tau ucro, jab av kd audh nidan banai at hi ran mai tab jujh maro

Give me this power, O Almighty: From righteous deeds I may never refrain, Fearlessly may I fight all the battles of life, Full confidence may I ever have In asserting my moral victories, May my supreme ambition and learning be To sing of Thy glory and victory. When this mortal life comes to a close May I die with the joy and courage of a martyr.

( The second Chandi Charitar is a part of the Bachiter Natak Granth. The Bachiter Natak has a collective introduction in which Guru Gobind Singh repeatedly wrote that he did not believe in the worship of gods and goddesses. In verses 92 and 93 Guruji said, "It is through Thy power, O God, that Durga destroyed the demons like Sumbh, Nisumbh, Dhumer and Lochan, Chand and Mund. It is through Thy power, O God, that Rama destroyed Ravana." And he concludes, Also “so sahib pae kaha parvah rahi eh das tiharo—With such a supreme One as my Lord, what care I, Thy servant, for anything or anyone?"

In the next stanza Guruji commented on the avatars and goddesses who were instrumental in killing all these and said,

"Kahe ko kur kare tapasa inki kou kaudi ke kam na aihai—Why indulge ye in the futile worship of these deities? Their worship is not worth a kaudi (one-twentieth of a penny)

(c) The third Panjabi version has a long introduction, a part which forms the national prayer. In it the Guru invoked the grace and blessings of God and the nine Gurus.

taihi durga saj kai daita da nas karaya, taitho hi bal ram lai nal bana dehsir ghaia, taitho hi bal krishan lai kans kesi pakad giraya, bade bade muni devte kai jug tini tan laia, kini tera nht na paya.

It is Thou who created Durga and had the demons destroyed, From Thee derived Rama all the strength to kill the ten-headed Ravana. From Thee derived Krishna all his strength to catch Kans by the hair and dash him to the ground. Great seers and sages in all ages strained hard in penance to know Thee. None, none has attained Thy end.

In these short prologues and epilogues Guru Gobind Singh made his own opinion about Durga quite clear. He took these figures simply as historical persons of note and nothing else.

Malwe Da Sher · February 13, 2010

Have you read Chandi Di Var? If you had you would know it quite clearly starts 'Taihee Durga Saajkay Daita Da Nass Karraiya.' If people didnt have an agenda to push that would quite clearly be the end of discussion regarding who is praised in Chandi Di Var.

HarjasDevi · February 13, 2010

Durga is Durga not Akaal Purakh.

Hmmm. Is it?

WHO IS KAL?

ਨਮੋ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੀ ਹਰੀ ਸੀ ਮੁਕੰਦੀ ॥੨੭॥੨੪੬॥

नमो पारब्रहमी हरी सी मुकंदी ॥२७॥२४६॥

Thou art the maya of Unmanifested Brahman and the Shakti of Shiva! I salute Thee.27.246.

ਜਯੰਤੀ ਨਮੋ ਮੰਗਲਾ ਕਾਲਕਾਯੰ ॥

जयंती नमो मंगला कालकायं ॥

Thou art the bestower of cheerfulness to all, the conqueror of all and the manifestation of Kal (death).

ਕਪਾਲੀ ਨਮੋ ਭਦ੍ਰਕਾਲੀ ਸਿਵਾਯੰ ॥

कपाली नमो भद्रकाली सिवायं ॥

O Kapali! (the goddess carrying begging bowl), Shiva-Shakti! (the power of Shiva) and

Bhadrakali!

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 293

Chandi Di Vaar Stanza 55 says:

ਦੁਰਗਾ ਪਾਠ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਸਭੇ ਪਉੜੀਆਂ ॥
All the Pauris (stanzas) of this DURGA PAATH (Durga Prayer) have been composed;

ਫੇਰਿ ਨ ਜੂਨੀ ਆਇਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਇਹ ਗਾਇਆ ॥੫੫॥
And that person who sings it, will not take birth again.55.

Well, if KALI DURGA is actually representing the Unmanifested Brahman who conquers KAL/death, the She is representing AKAAL which is beyond death. So this KAL is in fact KALI and also the balance of male and female, KAL Bairavi, which are only a sargun symbolic manifestation on this earth of the Nirguna power of Parabrahm.

ਨਮੋ ਅਰਧ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਇਣੀ ਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਚੂੜੰ ॥

नमो अरध चंद्राइणी चंद्र चूड़ं ॥

O the adopter of half-moon and wearer of the moon as an ornament;

ਨਮੋ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਊਰਧਾ ਨਮੋ ਦਾੜ੍ਹ ਗੂੜੰ ॥

नमो इंद्र ऊरधा नमो दाड़्ह गूड़ं ॥

Thou hast the power of clouds and hast dreadful jaws.

ਸਸੰ ਸੇਖਰੀ ਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਭਾਲਾ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥

ससं सेखरी चंद्र भाला भवानी ॥

Thy forehead is like the moon, O Bhavani!

ਭਵੀ ਭੈ ਹਰੀ ਭੂਤਰਾਟੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨੀ ॥੩੦॥੨੪੯॥

भवी भै हरी भूतराटी क्रिपानी ॥३०॥२४९॥

Thou art also

Bhairavi

and Bhutani, Thou art the wielder of the sword, I salute Thee.30.249.

ਕਲੀ ਕਾਰਣੀ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਮਛਯਾ ॥

कली कारणी करम करता कमछया ॥

O Kamakhya and Durga! Thou art the cause and deed of Kaliyuga (the iron age).

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 293

ਮਧੁ ਕੀਟਭੰ ਰਾਛਸੇਸੰ ਬਲੀਅੰ ॥ ਸਮੈ ਆਪਨੀ ਕਾਲ ਤੇਊ ਦਲੀਅੰ ॥

Madhu Kootabhang raachhsesang badooang|| Samai aapnoo kaal teoo dalooang||

There had been mighty demon-kings like Madhu and Kaitabh, the KAL crushed them on their turn.

ਭਏ ਸੁੰਭ ਨੈਸੁੰਭ ਸ੍ਰੋਣੰਤ ਬੀਜੰ ॥ ਤੇਊ ਕਾਲ ਕੀਨੇ ਪ੍ਰਰੇਜੰ ਪ੍ਰਰੇਜੰ ॥੬੪॥

Bhae Sunbh Naisunbh Sronant Boojang|| Teoo kaal koone purejang purejang||64||

Then there were Sumbah, Nisumbh and Sranavat Beej. They were also chopped into bits by KAL.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 104

KAL killed the demon-kings Madhu, Kaitabh, Sumbah, Nisumbh and Sranavat Beej. Okay. So who is the KAL who killed these very specific demons? It's not a mystery.

From Sri Durga Chalisa Ambe Maa

SHUMBH NISHUMBH DANUJ TOUM MARERAKTA BEEJ SHANKHANA SANGHARE

You slayed the demons like Shumbh & Nishumb and massacred the thousand forms of the dreaded Demon Raktabeej

MAHISHASUR NRIP ATI ABHIMANI

JEHI AGH BHAR MAHI AKOULANI

When the earth was severely distressed bearing the load of the sins of the arrogant Mahishasur

ROOP KARAL KALIKA DHARA

SEN SAHITA TOUM TIN SAMHARA

You assumed the dreadful form of Goddess Kali and massacred him along with his army

PARI GARH SANTANA PAR JAB JAB

BHAYI SAHAY MATOU TOUM TAB TAB

Thus, whenever the noble saints were distressed, it is You O Mother, who came to their rescue.

ਸਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਜੂਤੇ ਦੁਰਗਸਾਹ ਗਹਿ ਸਭਨੀਂ ਬਾਹੀਂ ॥

ससत्र पजूते दुरगसाह गहि सभनीं बाहीं ॥

Durga held her weapons firmly in all her arms.

ਸੁੰਭ ਨਿਸੁੰਭ ਸੰਘਾਰਿਆ ਵਥ ਜੇਹੇ ਸਾਹੀਂ ॥

सु्मभ निसु्मभ संघारिआ वथ जेहे साहीं ॥

She killed both Sumbh and Nisumbh, who were the masters of all the materials.

ਫਉਜਾਂ ਰਾਕਸਿਆਰੀਆਂ ਦੇਖਿ ਰੋਵਨਿ ਧਾਹੀਂ ॥

फउजां राकसिआरीआं देखि रोवनि धाहीं ॥

Seeing this, the helpless forces of the demons, weep bitterly.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 325

Shumbh and Nishumbh were sons ofDanu. They wanted to avenge Mahishasura's death and sent many demonslike to bring Goddess Chandika after enslaving her... Nishumbh attacked the goddess with a huge army. Shumbhattacked from the other side. In the fierce battle, Goddess Chandikabroke Nishumbh's sword as well as his shield. Nishumbh then attackedGoddess Chandika with his weapon- Shakti. Goddess Chandika broke itwith her Chakra... KILLING OF NISHUMBH AND SHUMBH

KAL is no mystery even careful reading of Shri Dasam Granth bani will show exactly who it is!

Now, if we examine Shri Guru Granth Sahib in light of Suraj Prakash, something interesting is a recurrent theme. Read it closely and see if you can catch what the common theme between them is.

ਜਪੈ ਤੋਤਲਾ ਸੀਤਲਾ ਖੱਗ ਪਾਣੀ ॥ ਭ੍ਰਮਾ ਭੈਹਰੀ ਭੀਮ ਰੂਪਾ ਭਵਾਣੀ ॥ ਚਲਾ ਚਲ ਸਿੰਘੰ ਝਮਾਝੰਮ ਅੱਤ੍ਰੰ ॥ ਹਹਾ ਹੂਹਿ ਹਾਸੰ ਝਲਾ ਛੱਤ੍ਰੰ ॥੨੨॥ जपै तोतला सीतला ख्ग पाणी ॥ भ्रमा भैहरी भीम रूपा भवाणी ॥ चला चल सिंघं झमाझम अत्रं ॥ हहा हूहि हासं झला छ्त्रं ॥२२॥
Theworship of the goddesses like Shitala, Bhavani etc. was performed andthe gleaming arms, weapons, splendour, canopy, pleasantry etc.increased his glory.

ਅਟਾ ਅੱਟਿ ਹਾਸੰ ਛਟਾ ਛੁਟ ਕੇਸੰ ॥ ਅਸੰ ਓਪ ਪਾਨੰ ਨਮੋ ਕ੍ਰੂਰ ਭੇਸੰ ॥ ਸਿਰੰ ਮਾਲ ਸ੍ਵੱਛੰ ਲਸੈ ਦੰਤ ਪੰਤੰ ॥ ਭਜੈ ਸ਼ਤ੍ਰ ਗ੍ਵੜੰ ਪ੍ਰਫੁਲੰਤ ਸੰਤੰ ॥੨੩॥ अटा अटि हासं छटा छुट केसं ॥ असं ओप पानं नमो क्रूर भेसं ॥ सिरं माल स्व्छं लसै दंत पंतं ॥ भजै शत्र ग्वड़ं प्रफुलंत संतं ॥२३॥
Thebeauty of his enjoyment and his hair appeared extremely comely and hissword glistened like lightning in his hands; he had worn a pure rosaryon his head and the rows of his teeth looked magnificent; seeing him,the enemies fled away and the saints were pleased.

ਅਲਿੰਪਾਤ ਅਰਧੀ ਮਹਾ ਰੂਪ ਰਾਜੈ ॥ ਮਹਾ ਜੋਤ ਜ੍ਵਾਲੰ ਕਰਾਲੰ ਬਿਰਾਜੈ ॥ अलि्मपात अरधी महा रूप राजै ॥ महा जोत ज्वालं करालं बिराजै ॥
He appeared as a most beautiful king and there was a hideous halo of light around his face;

ਭ੍ਰਮੈ ਦੁਸ਼ਟ ਪੁਸ਼ਟੰ ਹਸੈ ਸੁਧ ਸਾਧੰ ॥ ਭਜੋ ਪਾਨ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਅਰੂਪੀ ਅਰਾਧੰ ॥੨੪॥ भ्रमै दुशट पुशटं हसै सुध साधं ॥ भजो पान दुरगा अरूपी अराधं ॥२४॥
Onseeing him, the tyrants got illusioned and the saints smiled in theirpleased mind; he remembered the formless and mysterious Durga.

ਸੁਨੇ ਉਸਤਤੀ ਭੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੰ ॥ ਅਧੰ ਉਰਧਵੀ ਆਪ ਰੂਪੀ ਰਸਾਲੰ ॥ सुने उसतती भी भवानी क्रिपालं ॥ अधं उरधवी आप रूपी रसालं ॥
On listening to her praises, Bhavani was pleased on him and she endowed him with unique beauty;

ਦਏ ਇਖ੍ਵ ਧੀ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਅਭੰਗੰ ਖਤੰਗੰ ॥ ਪਰੈਸਯੰ ਧਰੰ ਜਾਨ ਲੋਹੰ ਸੁਰੰਗੰ ॥੨੫॥ दए इख्व धी द्वै अभंगं खतंगं ॥ परैसयं धरं जान लोहं सुरंगं ॥२५॥
She gave him two unfailing arms which could cause the steel-armoured enemies to fall on the earth.

ਜਬੈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਾਧੀ ਸਭੈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਏ ॥ ਉਘਾਰੇ ਚੁਮੇ ਕੰਠ ਸੀਸੰ ਛੁਹਾਏ ॥ जबै शसत्र साधी सभै शसत्र पाए ॥ उघारे चुमे कंठ सीसं छुहाए ॥
When this king, practising the armament, obtained the weapons, he kissed them, hugged them and placed them on his head;

ਲਖਯੋ ਸਰਬ ਰਾਵੰ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵੰ ਅਪਾਰੰ ॥ ਅਜੋਨੀ ਅਜੈ ਬੇਦ ਬਿੱਦਿਆ ਬਿਚਾਰੰ ॥੨੬॥ लखयो सरब रावं प्रभावं अपारं ॥ अजोनी अजै बेद बि्दिआ बिचारं ॥२६॥
All the kings saw him as unconquerable warrior and a successful scholar of he Vedic learning.

ਗ੍ਰਿਹੀਤ੍ਰਾ ਜਬੈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਅਸਤ੍ਰੰ ਅਪਾਰੰ ॥ ਪੜੇ ਅਨਭਵੰ ਬੇਦ ਬਿੱਦਿਆ ਬਿਚਾਰੰ ॥ ग्रिहीत्रा जबै शसत्र असत्रं अपारं ॥ पड़े अनभवं बेद बि्दिआ बिचारं ॥
After obtaining the unlimited arms and weapons, he also obtained the experience of the reflection of Vedic learning;

ਪੜੇ ਸਰਬ ਬਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੁਤੀ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਸੰ ॥ ਜਿਤੇ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਸੀ ਸੁ ਅਸਤ੍ਰੰ ਨਰੇਸੰ ॥੨੭॥ पड़े सरब बि्दिआ हुती सरब देसं ॥ जिते सरब देसी सु असत्रं नरेसं ॥२७॥
Hestudies the sciences of all the countries and on the strength of hisarms and weapons, he conquered the kings of all the countries.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib ji p. 1282

Now compare with the example below. Do you believe it is an accident? Is worship of Chandi being condemned, corrected or discouraged? No. Example is given of blessing because of it. Now one text is acceptedas Gurbani, with controversies yet regarding certain translation. Andone is somewhat marginalized as a semi-historical text at best,renounced as brahminvaadi at worst. But what is the truth behind allthe propaganda? The truth is there is a recurring theme, notdiscouraged in Shri Dasam Granth except for particular tuuks out ofcontext with questionable translation that oddly becomes a mouthpiece for Singh Sabha denunciations of the sanatan imagery of the purataan granths.

ਕਹਯੋ ‘ਬਿਅਦਬੀ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਨਿ ਕੇਰੀ ਤੈਂ ਕਯੋਂ ਚਰਨ ਲਗਾਯੋ । ਅਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਯ ‘ਖੜਗ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੋ ਨਿਜ ਧੁਜ ਬਿਖੈ ਸਹਾਯੋ ।੯।
The Guru then said, “You are disrespecting the weapons, why are you putting these weapons near your feet? Akaal Purkh loves the Kharag, on his very own battle standards it (the sword) is displayed. 9

ਆਦਿ ਸ਼ਕਤਿ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਚੰਡੀ ਰੂਪ ਇਹ ਪੂਜਨ ਜੋਗ ਸਦੀਵਾ । ਸਰਬ ਸੁਰਾਸੁਰ ਨਰ ਕਯਾ ਬਪੁਰੋ ਜਿਸ ਕੇ ਬਸਿ ਮਹਿਂ ਥੀਵਾ ।੧੦।
The sword is the Aadi Shakti (primal energy), and is the very form of Sri Chandi. One must always worship it. All demi-gods, goddesses, demons, and humans whose fate was kind contemplated upon this.

ਸਾਦਰ ਸੇਵ ਮਾਞਿਬੇ ਕਰੀਯਹਿ’ ਇਹ ਕਹਿ ਅੱਗ੍ਰ ਸਿਧਾਏ । ਬੈਠੇ ਬਹੁਰ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਆਯੋ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਪਾਏ ।੧੧।
Respectfully clean the weapons.” After saying this Guru walked on. Later on, a Khalsa came and received Guru’s darshan as Guru was sitting down.

ਕੇਤਿਕ ਚਿਰ ਮਹਿਂ ਇਕ ਸਿਖ ਬੋਲਯੋ ‘ਮਾਰਵਾਰਿਯਾ ਜੋਈ । ਪੁੰਜ ਖੜਗ ਸਿਰ ਪਰ ਧਰਿ ਬੈਠਯੋ ਕਾਰ ਨ ਕਰਤਾ ਸੋਈ’ ।੧੨।
After a while a Sikh said to the Guru, “The Marvaari Sikh has placed many weapons (swords) on his head and is sitting, but is not doing any work”

ਸੁਨਿ ਬਿਕਸੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਗਏ ਬਿਲੋਕਨਿ ਦੇਖਯੋ ਤਿਸੀ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰਾ । ‘ਇਹ ਕਯਾ ਕਰਯੋ ਨ ਸੇਵਾ ਠਾਨਤਿ ਬੈਠੇ ਸਮਾ ਗੁਜਾਰਾ’ ।੧੩।
Listening to that, Guru ji went to go see. Upon approaching the Guru said, “What are you doing? You are not doing any service; you are spending your time only resting.”

‘ਮਹਾਰਾਜ ਰਾਵਰ ਕੀ ਆਇਸੁ ਅਦਬ ਕਰਨਿ ਇਮ ਹੋਵੈ । ਸੇਵਾ ਮਾਂਞਨ ਕੀ ਹੁਇ ਤੈਸੇ ਜਥਾ ਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਮਲ ਖੋਵੇਂ’ ।੧੪।
The Maarvaari Sikh said, “Maharaj, only with your permission can this respectful practice be carried out, the service of washing can only be done that way, in the way (you proscribed) before. That is the only way the filth leaves.”

ਬਿਗਸਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਹਿ ‘ਤੁਮ ਕੌ ਬਖਸ਼ਯੋ, ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਨ ਕੇ ਨਿਤ ਦਾਸਾ । ਕਰਹੁ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਤੇ ਸੇਵਾ ਆਯੁਧ, ਤੌ ਸਭਿ ਸੁਖ ਹੁਇ ਪਾਸਾ’ ।੧੫।
The Lord said to the Maarvaari Sikh, “you are blessed; you are always doing service to weapons. With great love you do selfless service to the weapons, with this happiness with always be at your side.”

ਰਾਮ ਸਿੰਘ ਤਿਹ ਨਾਮ ਹੁਤੋ ਸੁਨਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੋ ਬੰਦਨ ਠਾਨੀ । ਮਾਂਞਨ ਕਰਨਿ ਲਗਯੋ ਸੁਧ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਨਿ, ਪੁਨ ਸੁਖ ਲਹਯੋ ਮਹਾਂਨੀ ।੧੬।
The Marvaari Sikh’s name was Ram Singh, after listening to Guru Ji’s word he prostrated before the Guru and started to clean some more weapons. After cleaning the weapons Ram Singh felt a great amount of happiness.

ਊਚੇ ਥਲ ਟਿਕਾਇ ਸਭਿ ਆਯੁਧ ਪੂਜਾ ਸੌਜ ਮੰਗਾਈ । ਲਗੇ ਨੁਰਾਤੇ ਸਗਰੇ ਪੂਜਨ ਚੰਡਿ ਕਾਲਕਾ ਮਾਈ ।੧੭।
After the cleaning; all the weapons were placed on a high level and the Sikhs started to worship them with incense. The festival of Navathri was starting and everyone was worshiping Chandi and Mata (mother) Kaalkaa.

ਚੰਡਿ ਚਰਿੱਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਠ ਨਿਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਸਹਿਸਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਅਰੁ ਭਾਖਾ । ਧੂਪ ਦੀਪ ਚੰਦਨ ਕੌ ਚਰਚਤਿ ਫੂਲਮਾਲ ਬਹੁ ਰਾਖਾ ।੧੮।
The recitation of Chandi Chritr was starting in both Sanskrit form (from Markhandya Purana) and in Brij Bhasa (from Dasam Granth). Incense, ghee-lamps, sandalwood were all used and great wreaths of flowers were put around the weapons.

~Suraj Prakash , Fouth Rut, Chapter 32 (sakhi Shastar Maajane, Dushiraa)

singh2 · February 13, 2010

Harjas you wrote earlier in this thread

No problem Ji. I'm sorry to hear you are having some issue of urgency. I hope all is well with you and your family. I bow out from this thread.

Why do not you abide by your committment and stop hijacking the thread again and again. God fearing persons honour their word.

Kaljug · February 13, 2010

KAL killed the demon-kings Madhu, Kaitabh, Sumbah, Nisumbh and Sranavat Beej. Okay. So who is the KAL who killed these very specific demons? It's not a mystery.

Read the names that follow. It wasn't Durga who killed Prithu, Mandhata, Bhim, Rama, Krishna, etc. It is the manifest power of Akal Purakh that is being praised.

ਬਲੀ ਪ੍ਰਿਥੀਅੰ ਮਾਨਧਾਤਾ ਮਹੀਪੰ ॥ ਜਿਨੈ ਰਥ ਚੱਕ੍ਰ ਕੀਏ ਸਾਤ ਦੀਪੰ ॥

The mighty king Prithu and the great sovereign like Mandhata who had demarcated seven continents with his chariot-wheel.

ਭੁਜੰ ਭੀਮ ਭਰਥੰ ਜਗੰ ਜੀਤਿ ਡੰਡਿਯੰ॥ ਤਿਨੈ ਅੰਤ ਕੇ ਅੰਤ ਕੌ ਕਾਲ ਖੰਡਿਯੰ॥੬੫॥

The king Bhim and the Bharat, who had conquered and brought the world under their control with the strength of arms. They were all destroyed by KAL, when they were nearing their end.65.

ਜਿਨੈ ਦੀਪ ਦੀਪੰ ਦੁਹਾਈ ਫਿਰਾਈ ॥ ਭੁਜਾ ਦੰਡ ਦੈ ਛੋਣਿ ਛਤ੍ਰੰ ਛਿਨਾਈ ॥

He, who hath created the frightening dominance of His Name. He, who had snatched the earth from the Kshatriyas with the strength of staff-like arms.

ਕਰੇ ਜਗ ਕੋਟੰ ਜਸੰ ਅਨਿਕ ਲੀਤੇ ॥ ਵਹੈ ਬੀਰ ਬੰਕੇ ਬਲੀ ਕਾਲ ਜੀਤੇ ॥੬੬॥

He, who had performed millions of Yajnas (sacrifices) and erned multi-faceted approbation. Even that winsome warrior (Parasuram) hath been conquered by KAL.66.

ਕਈ ਕੋਟ ਲੀਨੇ ਜਿਨੈ ਦੁਰਗ ਢਾਹੇ ॥ ਕਿਤੇ ਸੂਰਬੀਰਾਨ ਕੇ ਸੈਨ ਗਾਹੇ ॥

Those who had conquered millions of forts and razed them. Those who had treaded the forces of innumerable warriors.

ਕਈ ਜੰਗ ਕੀਨੇ ਸੁ ਸਾਕੇ ਪਵਾਰੇ ॥ ਵਹੈ ਦੀਨ ਦੇਖੇ ਗਿਰੇ ਕਾਲ ਮਾਰੇ ॥੬੭॥

Those who had indulged in many wars, events and disputes, I have seen them subdued and killed by KAL.67

ਜਿਨੈ ਪਾਤਸਾਹੀ ਕਰੀ ਕੋਟ ਜੁਗਿਯੰ ॥ ਰਸੰ ਆਨਰਸੰ ਭਲੀ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭੁਗਿਯੰ॥

Those who had ruled for millions of ages, and had enjoyed nicely the pleasures and vicious tastes.

ਵਹੈ ਅੰਤ ਕੋ ਪਾਵ ਨਾਂਗੇ ਪਧਾਰੇ ॥ ਗਿਰੇ ਦੀਨ ਦੇਖੇ ਹਠੀ ਕਾਲ ਮਾਰੇ ॥੬੮॥

They had ultimately gone with naked feet. I have seen them having been subdued, fallen and killed by the persistent KAL.68.

ਜਿਨੈ ਖੰਡੀਅੰ ਦੰਡ ਧਾਰੰ ਅਪਾਰੰ ॥ ਕਰੇ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਮਾ ਸੂਰ ਚੇਰੇ ਦੁਆਰੰ ॥

He, who had destroyed many kings, He, who had enslaved the moon and the sun in his house.

ਜਿਨੈ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਸੇ ਜੀਤ ਕੈ ਛੋਡਿ ਡਾਰੇ ॥ ਵਹੈ ਦੀਨ ਦੇਖੇ ਗਿਰੇ ਕਾਲ ਮਾਰੇ ॥੬੯॥

He (as Ravana), had conquered the god Indra in war and later released him. I have seen (him and Meghnad) being subdued, fallen and killed by KAL.69.

ਰਸਾਵਲ ਛੰਦ ॥

RASAAVAL STANZA

ਜਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਹੂਏ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਅੰਤਿ ਮੂਏ ॥

All the Ramas who incarnated, ultimately passed away.

ਜਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਅੰਤਿ ਜੈ ਹੈਂ ॥੭੦॥

All the Krishnas, who had incarnated, have all passed away.70.

ਜਿਤੇ ਦੇਵ ਹੋਸੀ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਅੰਤ ਜਾਸੀ ॥

All the gods who will come into being in future, they will all ultimately expire.

Yep, that includes Devi who was created from the combined power of the Devatay. When those same Devatay expire, so will Durga.

And quit whining about translations being suspect merely because they do not agree with your theories. Even the Gobind Sadan version, whose pothia you have been praising despite your inability to read them, has the same translation for these and the other tuks you were questioning in the other thread.

And for God's sake, stop littering these threads with irrelevant crap in your pitiful attempts to elevate your chosen deity to some sort of equivalent to Akal Purakh.

K.

HarjasDevi · February 13, 2010

'Taihee Durga Saajkay Daita Da Nass Karraiya.

What you don't understand is that in Hindu Mat it is also understood that the sargun manifestation is a part of creation but also inextricably linked to the nirgun which is completely beyond the physical creation. But the creation can't perceive the nirguna, so it requires a Light which shines in darkness, and that is the forms of sarguna through which the Eka Brahman is pervading and more than simply pervading, but positively manifesting to uphold Dharma and act as Guru guide through avtaray and lead mankind to moksha. In Hindu Mat the Sargun is always subordinate to the Nirgun, because it is part of pakrti, the material manifestation of the thrai gun and hence finite. But Sarguna is nonetheless a part of the Nirguna. God is not nirguna only.

Devas, in Hinduism, are celestial beings that control forces of nature such as fire, air, wind, etc. They are not to be confused with the One and the Supreme God or His personal form, Saguna Brahman which can be visualized as Viṣṇu or Śiva. God (see Ishvara) or Brahman (the Supreme Spirit) is the ultimate controller. A famous verse from the Katha Upanishad states: “From fear (here, power) of Him the wind blows; from fear of Him the sun rises; from fear of Him Agni and Indra and Death, the fifth, run." In actuality, Brahman is the only Ultimate Reality, and all Devas are simply mundane manifestations of Him.

The Vaishnavites (who often translate deva as "demigod") cite various verses that speak of the devas' subordinate status. For
example, the Rig Veda (1.22.20) states,oṃ tad viṣṇoḥ paramam padam sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ:"All the suras (i.e., the devas) look always toward the feetof Lord Vishnu." Similarly, in the Vishnu Sahasranama the concluding verses state: "The Rishis (great sages), the ancestors, the devas, the great elements, in fact all things moving and unmoving constituting this universe, have originated from Narayana," (i.e., Vishnu). Thus the Devas are stated to be subordinate to Vishnu, or God.

In the Bhagavad Gita Krishna himself states that worshipers of deities other than the Supreme Lord, Vishnu, areincorrect (Gita 9.23) as such worship leads only to temporalbenefits, rather than to the Lord Himself (Gita 7.23). Deva

ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਹਰੀਆ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਧਰੀਆ ਅਨਿਕ ਕੋਠਰੀਆ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿਨ ਕਰੀਆ ॥

niragun hareeaa saragun dhhareeaa anik kothareeaa bhinn bhinn bhinn bhin kareeaa ||

The Lord is absolute and unmanifest; He hasassumed the most sublime manifestation.

He has fashioned countless bodychambers of many, varied, different, myriad forms.

~SGGS Ji ang 746

ਅਨਿਕ ਰੰਗ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਇਕ ਰੰਗਾ ॥

anik rang niragun eik rangaa ||

He manifests many forms, while still unmanifest and absolute, and yet He has One Form.

ਆਪੇ ਜਲੁ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਤਰੰਗਾ ॥੨॥

aapae jal aap hee tharangaa ||2||

He Himself is the water, and He Himself is the waves.

ਆਪ ਹੀ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਆਪਹਿ ਸੇਵਾ ॥

aap hee mandhar aapehi saevaa ||

He Himself is the temple, and He Himself is selfless service.

ਆਪ ਹੀ ਪੂਜਾਰੀ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਦੇਵਾ ॥੩॥

aap hee poojaaree aap hee dhaevaa ||3||

He Himself is the worshipper, and He Himself is the idol. <----Idol? It says deva! He is the Deva.

ਆਪਹਿ ਜੋਗ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਜੁਗਤਾ ॥

aapehi jog aap hee jugathaa ||

He Himself is the Yoga; He Himself is the Way. <---Way? It says technique. Yogic technique.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਦ ਹੀ ਮੁਕਤਾ ॥੪॥੧॥੬॥

naanak kae prabh sadh hee mukathaa ||4||1||6||

Nanak's God is forever liberated.

~SGGS Ji ang 803

Pichchhila Tantra also says 'of all the Mantras of the Devas that ofKalika is the best. Even the vilest can become Jivanmukta simplythrough this Mantra.' In Yogini Tantra, Shiva says 'This Vidya Kalikais Maha-Maha-Maha-Vidya, through whom even the worst may attainNirvana. Even Brahma, Vishnu, and Maheshvara are Her worshippers. Shewho is Kail the supreme Vidya, is Tara also. The notion of a differencebetween them has given rise to various Mantras.' Again the KamakhyaTantra says Oh Parameshvari, seven lakhs of Mahavidyas remain hidden.Of them all Shodashi is said to be the most sublime. But Oh Devi, the Mother of the world, Kalika is the mother even of Her.' Niruttara Tantra says ' Without knowledge of Shakti, Oh Devi, there is no Nirvana. That Shakti is Dakshina Kali who is the own form of all Vidyas (Sarvvavidyarupini).' Obeisance To The Supreme Devata

When Shri Dasam Granth says the devas are subordinate to KAL it is not anything different from what is written in the Tantras which are the source for the stories in Shri Dasam Granth bani.

All these are not the opinions of Guru Gobind Singh. They are theopinions of the writers of the original which Guru Gobind Singhfaithfully translated. To dissociate himself and his ideal from it,Guru Gobind Singh either added a short introduction or an epilogue toeach of these versions of Chandi. Guru Gobind Singh's opinions, givinghis own faith were:

(a) In the First Chandi Charitar he said:

deh siva bar mohe ehai, shubh carman te kabhu na taro, na daro ar sojab jae laro, niscai kar aprni jit karo, ar sikh hau apne hi man kau ehlalac hau gun tau ucro, jab av kd audh nidan banai at hi ran mai tabjujh maro

Give me this power, O Almighty: From righteous deeds I may neverrefrain, Fearlessly may I fight all the battles of life, Fullconfidence may I ever have In asserting my moral victories, May mysupreme ambition and learning be To sing of Thy glory and victory. Whenthis mortal life comes to a close May I die with the joy and courage ofa martyr.

You're kidding me. Guru Gobind Singh didn't write those lines, some other writers did? And then you say to dissociate Himself from Durga he wrote Deh Shiva bar mohe ehe? Dear goodness, oh my!

deh siva bar mohe ehai

This is in praise of Shiva the feminine variant, Shivani as opposed to Shiv. It is the exact same as Durga!

Thus respecting Khosa ji's scholarly background I am again just trying to understand how word Siva in Deh Siva Bar Mohe ihe refers to God Akal Purkh and not to goddess wife of Shivji (Chandi) or to mythological Shivji itself.

Khosa ji has referred to Mahan Kosh. Under meanings for Siva the very first entry refers to Chandi Chritar, the same composition where Deh Siva line appears. The meaning given is:

Siva. noun. Shiva, noun, Shiv's wife Durga, Parvati "Dhar Dhian Man Siva Ko Takki Puri Kailas" (Chandi 1).

The line "Dhar Dhian Man Siva Ko Taki Puri Kailas (Dwr iDAwn mn isvw ko qkI purI kYlws) refers to the story of Chandi Charitar when the Daityas defeated the mythological gods (Vishnu, Brahma, Indar, etc) after a fight lasting five thousand years the gods contemplated making a request for help to goddess Siva (who lived on mount Kailash as wife of god Shiv and hence called Siva or Shiva). Dr Serjinder Singh UK

(The second Chandi Charitar is a part of the Bachiter Natak Granth. TheBachiter Natak has a collective introduction in which Guru Gobind Singhrepeatedly wrote that he did not believe in the worship of gods andgoddesses. In verses 92 and 93 Guruji said, "It is through Thy power, OGod, that Durga destroyed the demons like Sumbh, Nisumbh, Dhumer andLochan, Chand and Mund. It is through Thy power, O God, that Ramadestroyed Ravana." And he concludes, Also “so sahib pae kaha parvahrahi eh das tiharo—With such a supreme One as my Lord, what care I, Thyservant, for anything or anyone?"

Guru Gobind Singh Ji doesn't believe in the worship of demi-gods. But He DOES believe in the worship of the Supreme who takes the form of devatay and avtaray and whose clear Power is acting through the sargun manifestations. So when Hindu's are worshipping or praising the sargun manifestations and japping the sargun NAAMs, how is it any different? You cannot WORSHIP that which you cannot perceive! You cannot PRAISE or JAP the NAAM of the unnameable. It is abundantly clear that Shri Dasam Granth has established the supremacy of Durga Kali Devi as the sargun manifestation of the Parabrahm, just as is taught in the Kali tantras.

ਯਾ ਕਲ ਮੈਂ ਸਭ ਕਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਕੇ ਭਾਰੀ ਭੁਜਾਨ ਕੋ ਭਾਰੀ ਭਰੋਸੋ ॥੯੨॥ या कल मैं सभ काल क्रिपान के भारी भुजान को भारी भरोसो ॥९२॥

In this Iron age, the supreme trust is only for KAL, Who is the Sword-incarnate and hath mighty arms.

ਸੁੰਭ ਨਿਸੁੰਭ ਸੇ ਕੋਟ ਨਿਸਾਚਰ ਜਾਹਿ ਛਿਨੇਕ ਬਿਖੈ ਹਨਿ ਡਾਰੇ ॥ सु्मभ निसु्मभ से कोट निसाचर जाहि छिनेक बिखै हनि डारे ॥

He, who hath destroyed millions of demons like Sumbh and Nisumbh in and instant.

ਧੂਮਰਲੋਚਨ ਚੰਡ ਔ ਮੁੰਡ ਸੇ ਮਾਹਿਖ ਸੇ ਪਲ ਬੀਚ ਨਿਵਾਰੇ ॥ धूमरलोचन चंड औ मुंड से माहिख से पल बीच निवारे ॥

Who hath annihilated in and instant the demons like Dhumarlochan, Chand, Mund and Mahishasura.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 109

Who is the KAL of the Kaliyuga? Why Kali!

Who is traditionally represented as a sword/Khanda? Why Kali!

Who destroyed the demons Sumbh and Nisumbh? Why Kali!

Who destroyed Mahishasura? Why the very same KAL.

Hence Sadhakas who desire Liberation should always think of the Svarupatattva of Brahmavidya Kalika. Of this Svarupa the Devisays in Mahabhagavata : ' Those who long for Liberation should, inorder to gain freedom from the bonds of the body, meditate on thataspect (Rupa) of Mine which is the supreme Light (Jyotih), Sukshma, andNishkala, Nirguna, the all-pervading unbeginning, non-dual sole Causewhich is Sachchida-nanda Itself. This is the Svarupa of the Devi whichis beyond all mind and speech.'The Markandeya Purana says, ' The Mahamaya is Nishkala, Nirguna,endless, undecaying, unthinkable, formless and both eternal (Nitya.)and transient (Anitya)', that is, Mahainaya Kalika is free from Kala(Maya) and free from Gunas, without end, imperishable, eternal, and nottransient as is the world (Jagat), formless, and hence, as such, is notthe object of meditation. In the Kurma Purana, Vishnu in the form of aTortoise says that the Supreme Devi is Nirguna, pure, white, stainless,free from all duality and realizable by the Atma only. This state ofHers is attainable only by Jnana. In the Kamada Tantra, Shiva says 'That eternal Kali who is supreme Brahman is one without a second eithermale or female. She has neither form, Adhara, or Upadhi. She is sinlessand imperishable Sachchida-nanda, the Great Brahman.' She who iseternal Brahman has neither appearance (Avirbhava) nor disappearance(Tirobhava), and being all-pervading, She cannot be said, like otherDevas and Devis, to reside in any particular Loka.

That is your KAL. And yes, it is the same as AKAAL Purakh. It is the same as Parabrahm. It is the same as Mahakali. It is the harmonious Totality of nirguna AND sarguna, but in it's purest aspect is nirgun.

That is who Devi is. It isn't that some male God aspect is acting through Devi as a demi-god. KAL isn't male or female, that is just a symbology for Pure Shakti. She is a unity with KAL Bairav, male and female destructive symbolism of the ultimate face of Sadashiva. But in aspect of KAL, Devi is actually expressing the fullness of the nirguna Itself, with all the power to destroy every demi-god and every temporary thing by power of time and death, war and steel. Because She is Parapakrti and Sarb Akal. She is the One Force Parashakti who is beyond Time and therefore able to liberate us from it.

And this is why Guru Sahib has subordinated all the other devatay and avtaray to KAL. But it cannot be said that KAL is not Kali, because KALI is the original representation, symbolism and manifestation of this Great Divine Power.

ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਕਾਲ ਜਬ ਕਰਾ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ ਤੇ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਪਾਰਾ ॥ प्रिथम काल जब करा पसारा ॥ ओअंकार ते स्रिसटि उपारा ॥

In the beginning, when KAL created the world, it was brought into being by Aumkara (the One Lord).

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 114

Ek Akshara. Aum/OMkara. The Shabad Brahman of the Vedas.

taihi durga saj kai daita da nas karaya, taitho hibal ram lai nal bana dehsir ghaia, taitho hi bal krishan lai kans kesipakad giraya, bade bade muni devte kai jug tini tan laia, kini tera nhtna paya.

It is Thou who created Durga and had the demons destroyed, From Theederived Rama all the strength to kill the ten-headed Ravana. From Theederived Krishna all his strength to catch Kans by the hair and dash himto the ground. Great seers and sages in all ages strained hard inpenance to know Thee. None, none has attained Thy end.

In these short prologues and epilogues Guru Gobind Singh made his ownopinion about Durga quite clear. He took these figures simply ashistorical persons of note and nothing else.

No that's a personal imposition into the meaning. It is saying that MahaKAAL is the Power behind all the sargun manifestations of avtaray and devatay. Nowhere is it saying Guruji thinks these are mere historical personages or mythological or anything like it. CLEARLY He is PRAISING the grand heroism of the One Divine who manifests in many forms throughout the Ages who is the True Reality underlying the manifest show. The ONE DIVINE IS THE POWER ACTING IN ALL DEVATAY AND AVTARAY!

Nothing is dismissed, negated, denied. Guruji having brahmgyaan is able to perceive the Underlying Unity and Truth of it, the Pre-eminence of the Nirguna acting as force behind all the manifested Pakriti forms.

<h2 id="toc3">Nirguna Brahman</h2>The Absolute without qualities, is impersonal, without guna or attributes, Nirakara (formless), Nirvisesha (without special characteristics), immutable, eternal and Akarta(non-agent). It is above all needs and desires. It is always theWitnessing Subject. It can never become an object as It is beyond thereach of the senses. Brahman is non-dual, one without a second. It hasno other beside It. It is destitute of difference, either external orinternal. Brahman cannot be described, because description impliesdistinction. Brahman cannot be distinguished from any other than It. InBrahman, there is not the distinction of substance and attribute. Sat-Chit-Ananda (Truth-Consciousness-Bliss) constitute the very essence or Svarupa of Brahman, and not just Its attributes.

<h2 id="toc4">Saguna Brahman</h2>Qualified absolute, came from the Sanskrit saguṇa (सगुण) "withqualities" and brahman (ब्रह्मन्) "the Absolute." The personal aspectof the Ultimate Reality. Saguna Brahman is the creator, sustainer andcontroller of the universe. As the male aspect, Saguna Brahman iscalled by various Sanskrit names, such as Ishvara, Parameshvara, paramatma, Maheshvara, and Purusha. As the female aspect, Saguna Brahman is refered by various names, such as Divine Mother, Durgã and Kãlî.

Despite the abstract principle of Brahman, most Hindus worshipBrahman on a day-to-day basis in one of Brahman's less abstractpersonal forms, such as Vishnu, Shiva, or Shakti.Some Hindus worship these personal forms for a practical reason: it iseasier to cultivate devotion to a personal being than to an abstractprinciple. Vedas teaching: Brahman

HarjasDevi · February 13, 2010

>>No problem Ji. I'm sorry tohear you are having some issue of urgency. I hope all is well with youand your family. I bow out from this thread.<<
Why do not you abide by your committment and stop hijacking the thread again and again. God fearing persons honour their word.

It obviously became another discussion, and not about this veers personal questions.

Yep, that includes Devi who was created from the combined power of the Devatay. When those same Devatay expire, so will Durga.

And quit whining about translations being suspect merely because theydo not agree with your theories. Even the Gobind Sadan version, whosepothia you have been praising despite your inability to read them, hasthe same translation for these and the other tuks you were questioningin the other thread.

And for God's sake, stop littering these threads with irrelevant crapin your pitiful attempts to elevate your chosen deity to some sort ofequivalent to Akal Purakh.

Veer Ji. I respect that we have a difference of opinion, and you are not wrong. But if you would open your mind just a little, and at least look at what I'm presenting from the Hindu perspective, you will see that Hindu scriptures do in fact interpret MahaKAAL as AKAAL Purakh. Now, in my mind it really comes down to semantics, most people envision AKAAL Purakh as male, and MahaKAAL as feminine, and in fact there are a unity of both male and female and beyond male and female.

My sole issue is the way Sikhi modernly eliminates and invalidates Devi, rather than incorporating that aspect of Devi which is actually the female aspect of the same Divine Beloved. Other than that, yes I agree all devatay and avtaray are part of the finite created order and passing away. The brains and eyes which perceive experiences of them will also pass away. Yet, try to look for a moment at the everlasting underlying reality which underlies it all.

It is the same One God in Islam as in Christianity as in Judaism as in Hinduism. I always feel like I'm trying to defend these are not fake or mythological beings who are competing with the One True God. Can't you at least accept that much that sarguna, as even Guru Sahibaan own bodies crumbled into dust, sarguna IS passing away, but the ONE REALITY EKA BRAHM which underlies it all is still the same One God, and have at least a little understanding for how Hindu people who did become Sikhs have left an imprint of sanatan tradition which Guruji did not trash and invalidate, but actually used to explain higher true reality.

Sikhi does have a different view then majority of Hindu sampraday, but in some teachings there is a harmony. Why can't we at least acknowledge and share the commonalities? Worship of demi-gods is wrong, it's limited. But the way in which the Ultimate is described is still limited to symbolism of sarguna, because human minds can't conceive anything beyond it. Even imagining AKAAL, people are still stuck in the limits of imagination. These deepest spiritual mysteries really are unexplainable.

And I don't believe you on the Govind Sadhan translations not being different as there are posted controversies already. But I was hoping some Singhs who like to translate for themselves controversial granths, who are far more fluent than I ever will be, might at least be interested to look at the two published Dasam Granths and post here their findings instead of just making empty, bold claims.

Kaljug · February 13, 2010

It obviously became another discussion, and not about this veers personal questions.

Funny how every thread you reply to magically becomes a conversation about Devi worship, what what?

Veer Ji. I respect that we have a difference of opinion, and you are not wrong. But if you would open your mind just a little, and at least look at what I'm presenting from the Hindu perspective, you will see that Hindu scriptures do in fact interpret MahaKAAL as AKAAL Purakh. Now, in my mind it really comes down to semantics, most people envision AKAAL Purakh as male, and MahaKAAL as feminine, and in fact there are a unity of both male and female and beyond male and female.

My sole issue is the way Sikhi modernly eliminates and invalidates Devi, rather than incorporating that aspect of Devi which is actually the female aspect of the same Divine Beloved. Other than that, yes I agree all devatay and avtaray are part of the finite created order and passing away. The brains and eyes which perceive experiences of them will also pass away. Yet, try to look for a moment at the everlasting underlying reality which underlies it all.

Nope, that's not your sole issue. You said that Kal in Gurbani refers to Durga because the names of Madhu Kaitabh, Sumbh Nisumbh were mentioned. You were shown that Kal is also declared to be the destroyer of other entities whom Durga did not destroy (according to Hindu mythology) and hence your logic is flawed.

Sikhi does not envision Akaal Purakh as being masculine, neither does Dasam Granth describe Mahakaal as feminine. However you or other people interpret those names is neither here nor there. And neither is what Hindu granths say about Mahakaal and the rest of their divinities since Gurbani makes it very clear that the Devatay are not what they say they are.

The underlying reality of all things is Akaal Purakh, but that does not mean that Devi or Shiva or I am Akaal Purakh This is something you seem unwilling to comprehend.

Can't you at least accept that much that sarguna, as even Guru Sahibaan own bodies crumbled into dust

The Gurus were pooran avatar of Akaal Purakh, yet they forbade their Sikhs rom worshipping them. Compare this with the egotistical speech of Krishna who claimed in the Bhagavad Gita that he was the Supreme Himself, and you may yet grasp why we do not worship any devatay or avatars and why Gurbani speaks of the ego of these avatars.

And I don't believe you on the Govind Sadhan translations not being different as there are posted controversies already. But I was hoping some Singhs who like to translate for themselves controversial granths, who are far more fluent than I ever will be, might at least be interested to look at the two published Dasam Granths and post here their findings instead of just making empty, bold claims.

You don't believe me? Then learn Gurmukhi and show otherwise. Until that time you need to QUIT WHINING about translations being suspect because you don't want to believe them.

K.

shaheediyan · February 13, 2010

Slightly off topic (apologies in advance), but Javala Singhs post on his blog is quite interesting, looking at things from a traditional perspective, those interested in Chandis relationship with Khalsa Panth will find this interesting:

Khalsa Dharam Shaastar

The following is a passage from Khalsa Dharam Shaastar which is written by Bhai Avatar Singh Vahiria in 1914. Avatar Singh was a student of Bhai Khem Singh Ji Bedi. They were the main opposition of the British-educated version of the Singh Sabha which became the SGPC. The Khalsa Dharam Shaastar was written ahead of time before most challenges against orthodox thought in Sikhism were started in the early 1900s. It speaks openly about orthodox traditions which are still held today by Nihang, Nirmale, Udasi, and Hazuri Sikhs.

This post links with the previous post [bhagauti Astotar Translation] because it explains the relationship between Devi/Chandi/Weapons. Avatar Singh also explains why Guru Gobind Singh Ji manifested the Devi [ref. Suraj Prakash Granth, Gurbilas Patshahi 10 etc], before he created the Khalsa. His thought does not differ with the katha in the previous post by Baba Inderjit Singh Ji.

Khalsa Dharam Shaastar page 16-18

ਸਿਖ ਮਤ ਵਿਚ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਤੱਖ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਥਵਾ ਗੁਰਾਂ ਸੰਤਾਂ ਦਾ ਹੈ । ਤਥਾ ਹੀ ਭਗਵਤੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਤੱਖ ਧੇਇ ਸਰੂਪ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਆਦਿਕ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਅਸਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਦਾ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਹੈ ।

In Sikhism, to view the [sargun] form of Akal Purkh you can look towards Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as well as Saints. Like this to the [sargun] form of Bhagvati [Devi/Chandi] for one to view weapons [shastar and astar].

ਭਗਵਤ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਪੁਲਿੰਗ ਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ ਕਰਕੇ ਮਹਿਮਾਂ ਸਭੋਾ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਆਦਿ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਤਥਾ ਦਸਮੇ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਲਖਮੀ ਭਗਵਤੀ ਸ਼ਕਤੀ ਮਾਤਾ ਦੀ ਦਸਮੇ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਤਥਾ ਲੋਹ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ ਨਾਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਵਿਚ ਹੈ ।

The vocabulary of praise of Bhagvat Akal Purkh in [Adi] Guru Granth Sahib is masculine, it is also present in the 10th King's scripture [Dasam Granth]. Furthermore the praise of Lakhmi, Bhagvati, Shakti, Mata [all forms of Adi Shakti] are present in the 10th King's scripture [Dasam Granth] as well as Loh Prakash Granth [sri Sarbloh Granth Ji].

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਮਹਾਰਾਜ ਆਪ ਸਰਬ ਕਲਾ ਸਮਰਥ ਸਨ ਦੇਵੀ ਭਗਵਤੀ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਕਰਨ ਦੇ ਬਿਨਾ ਵੀ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਾਮ ਕਰਕੇ ਛੇਵੀ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹੀ ਅਤੇ ਦਸਵੀ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹੀ ਨੇ ਜੁੱਧ ਜੀਤੇ ਅਪਣੇ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇ ਅਰਾਧਨ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਕਰਨ ਦੀ ਕੋਈ ਲੋੜ ਨਹੀ ਸੀ ਪਰ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਪੰਥ ਦੀ ਰਚਨਾਵਿਚ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਕਤੀ ਭਗਵਤੀ ਦਾ ਤੇਜ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਾਇ ਕਰ ਉਸਦਾ ਪੰਥ ਦੀ ਇਮਾਰਤ ਵਿਚ ਗੱਚ ਲਾਣਾ ਸੀ ਸੋ ਉਹ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਕਤੀ ਭਗਵਤੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਜਗਮਾਨੀ ਕੈਸੀ ਹੇ ਮਹਾਰਾਜ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਇਸ ਬਚਨ ਤੋ ਸਿੱਧ ਹੈ:

Sri Guru Ji Maharaj, the mighty one possessing all powers, went to war without manifesting the Devi Bhagvati, the 6th King and 10th King went to war and attained victory, for themselves they had no need to manifest the Devi through rememberance, however, when the Khalsa of Akal Purkh was created the Shakti of Akal Purkh, which is Bhagvati, Her power was manifested for the foundations of the Panth which would be solid and powerful [talking about the Rudhra/Bir Ras that Her Shakti brings]. So the shakti of Akal Purkh is Bhagvati, Bhavani, Jagmani. The Great King [Guru Gobind Singh Ji]'s words will add clarification:

Then Avatar Singh quotes the following passage: [These lines of gurbani are from Krishnavatar in Sri Dasam Granth's Chaubis Avatar section. Krishna is at war with a very powerful person named Shakt Singh. He attains this name due to his devotion to Chandi [shakti]. Shakt Singh is extremely powerful and even Krishna himself cannot destroy him with the help of other Gods. Krishna then has to perform extreme devotion towards Chandi for her to manifest. When Chandi manifests infront of Krishna she grants him the boon to destroy Shakt Singh. After that happens Krishna tells the people to do the following:]

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥DOHRA

ਤਾ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਹੂੰ ਚੰਡ ਕੀ ਸੇਵ ਕਰਹੁ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ॥ ਜੀਤਨ ਕੋ ਬਰੁ ਦੇਇਗੀ ਅਰਿ ਤਬ ਲੀਜਹੁ ਘਾਇ ॥੧੩੨੫॥

Therefore you should also serve Chandi single-mindedly, which she will bestow the boon of victory and then you will be able to kill the enemy.1325.

ਜਾਗਤ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਗ ਜਲ ਥਲ ਰਹੀ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਹਰਿ ਰੂਪ ਮੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਗੁਨਿ ਰਹੀ ਠਹਰਾਇ ॥੧੩੨੬॥

She, whose gleaming light pervades in water, on plain and the whole world, the same is preset in Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva in the form of three modes.1326.

ਸਵੈਯਾ ॥SWAYYA

ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਲਾ ਬਰਤੈ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਅਰੁ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਲਾ ਸਭ ਰੂਪਨ ਮੈ ॥ ਅਰੁ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਲਾ ਬਿਮਲਾ ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਕਮਲਾਪਤਿ ਕੇ ਕਮਲਾ ਤਨ ਮੈ ॥

She, whose power is present in the whole world and in all forms, whose power is present in Parvati, Vishnu and Lakshsmi,

ਪੁਨਿ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਲਾ ਗਿਰ ਰੂਖਨ ਮੈ ਸਸਿ ਪੂਖਨ ਮੈ ਮਘਵਾ ਘਨ ਮੈ ॥ ਤੁਮਹੂੰ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਕਲਾ ਜਗ ਮਾਨੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨ ਕਰੋ ਮਨ ਮੈ ॥੧੩੨੭॥

And whose power is present in the mountain, tree, sun, moon, Indra and clouds also; you have not adored that Bhavani, therefore now meditate on Her.1327.

http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=911

After quoting Dasam Granth Bhai Avatar Singh says:

ਐਸੀ ਜਗਦੰਭਾ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਦੀ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਾਮਕ ਸ਼ਕਤੀ ਕਲਾ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਕਰਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕੀਤੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਦੁਵਾਰਾ ਅਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਸਥਾਪਨ ਕੀਤਾ ।

In this way, the ferocious battlefield power of Bhavani was manifested and used as a Kirpan when preparing Amrit.

Note: Avatar Singh is referring to when the Devi appeared before Guru Gobind Singh Ji and gave Her dagger [karad] to Guru Gobind Singh Ji for use in the Amrit Sanchaar [ref Suraj Prakash and Puratan Rehatnamas]. Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji also confirmed this with me.

Kaljug · February 13, 2010

The following is a passage from Khalsa Dharam Shaastar which is written by Bhai Avatar Singh Vahiria in 1914. Avatar Singh was a student of Bhai Khem Singh Ji Bedi.

Isn't this the same guy who believed that shudras could only enter the outer precincts of Harimandir Sahib and go no further? Though I find his work interesting, I would not call his views traditional.

K.

Kaljug · February 13, 2010

It is abundantly clear that Shri Dasam Granth has established the supremacy of Durga Kali Devi as the sargun manifestation of the Parabrahm, just as is taught in the Kali tantras.

LOL. First it was Vishnu who is supreme because Vaishnav names are used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Krishna calls himself supreme in Bhagavad Gita, then it was Shiva because Mahakaal is a name of his and Shiva is decsribed as Sadashiv in the tantras, now it is Kali because her worshippers say she's the best, the biggest and the baddest.

Any fool can quote a dozen or so Hindu granths that declare any devata you can think of as being the supreme. Do you know that there are even Shaivite worshippers of Ganesh who consider him supreme? Hindu granths are irrelevant when understanding Gurbani's position on the status of these devatay (that includes your precious Devi).

ਯਾ ਕਲ ਮੈਂ ਸਭ ਕਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਕੇ ਭਾਰੀ ਭੁਜਾਨ ਕੋ ਭਾਰੀ ਭਰੋਸੋ ॥੯੨॥
In this Iron age, the supreme trust is only for KAL, Who is the Sword-incarnate and hath mighty arms.

ਸੁੰਭ ਨਿਸੁੰਭ ਸੇ ਕੋਟ ਨਿਸਾਚਰ ਜਾਹਿ ਛਿਨੇਕ ਬਿਖੈ ਹਨਿ ਡਾਰੇ ॥
He, who hath destroyed millions of demons like Sumbh and Nisumbh in and instant.
ਧੂਮਰਲੋਚਨ ਚੰਡ ਔ ਮੁੰਡ ਸੇ ਮਾਹਿਖ ਸੇ ਪਲ ਬੀਚ ਨਿਵਾਰੇ ॥
Who hath annihilated in and instant the demons like Dhumarlochan, Chand, Mund and Mahishasura.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 109

Who is the KAL of the Kaliyuga? Why Kali!
Who is traditionally represented as a sword/Khanda? Why Kali!
Who destroyed the demons Sumbh and Nisumbh? Why Kali!
Who destroyed Mahishasura? Why the very same KAL.

Keep reading beyond the tuks you've selectively quoted:

ਮੁੰਡਹੁ ਸੇ ਮਧੁਕੀਟਭ ਸੇ ਮੁਰ ਸੇ ਅਘ ਸੇ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੋਟਿ ਦਲੇ ਹੈਂ ॥

He, Who hath mashed millions of demons like Mundakasura, Madhu, Kaitabh, Murs and Aghasura.

ਰਾਵਣ ਸੇ ਮਹਰਾਵਣ ਸੇ ਘਟਕਾਨਹੁ ਸੇ ਪਲ ਬੀਚ ਪਛਾਰੇ ॥

Thou hast destroyed in and instant the warriors like Ravana, Kumbhkarna and Ghatksura.

ਬਾਰਿਦਨਾਦ ਅਕੰਪਨ ਸੇ ਜਗ ਜੰਗ ਜੁਰੇ ਜਿਨ ਸਿਉ ਜਮ ਹਾਰੇ ॥

And like Meghnad, who could defeat even Yama in the war.

ਕੁੰਭ ਅਕੁੰਭ ਸੇ ਜੀਤ ਸਭੈ ਜਗ ਸਾਤਹੂੰ ਸਿੰਧ ਹਥਿਆਰ ਪਖਾਰੇ ॥

And the demons like Kumbh and Akumbh, who conquering all, washed away the blood from their weapons in seven seas, etc.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਹੁਤੇ ਅਕਟੇ ਬਿਕਟੇ ਸੁ ਕਟੇ ਕਰਿ ਕਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਕੇ ਮਾਰੇ ॥੯੫॥

All of them died with the terrible sword of the mighty KAL.95.

It wasn't Kali who killed Aghasura, Ravana, Kumbhkarna or Ghatksura, or Kumbh and Akumbh.

Kal is the force of Akal Purakh that acts to destroy adharam, and it acts through Durga, Krishna, and the other Devatay and avatas who fought for dharam.

That is who Devi is. It isn't that some male God aspect is acting through Devi as a demi-god. KAL isn't male or female, that is just a symbology for Pure Shakti. She is a unity with KAL Bairav, male and female destructive symbolism of the ultimate face of Sadashiva. But in aspect of KAL, Devi is actually expressing the fullness of the nirguna Itself, with all the power to destroy every demi-god and every temporary thing by power of time and death, war and steel. Because She is Parapakrti and Sarb Akal. She is the One Force Parashakti who is beyond Time and therefore able to liberate us from it.

How strange that this is your conclusion and by pure coincidence you are a Devi worshipper! :-) You can talk as much nonsense as you like, you can quote as many hindu granths as you like, but the fact of the mater is that there is nothing in Gurbani to support your hindumat. In fact, as others have already shown you, there are plenty of tuks in Gurbani that show that Durga is another creation of Akal Purakh.

And congratulations on ruining another thread with your incessant chatter about Devi this and Devi that in a thread that had nothing to do with your Devi worshipping crap.

K.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Kaljug

HarjasDevi · February 13, 2010

Funny how every thread you reply to magically becomes a conversation about Devi worship, what what?

GuptSingh1699 writes: #30

Durga is Durga not Akaal Purakh.

This is whom you worship by reading Vaar Durga Ki aka Chandi Di Vaar

http://www.vanadurga...rga_9_small.jpg

Yes funny how that happens. /points up

Nope, that's not your sole issue. You said that Kal in Gurbani refersto Durga because the names of Madhu Kaitabh, Sumbh Nisumbh werementioned. You were shown that Kal is also declared to be the destroyerof other entities whom Durga did not destroy (according to Hindumythology) and hence your logic is flawed.

And I quoted:

ਨਮੋ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੀ ਹਰੀ ਸੀ ਮੁਕੰਦੀ ॥੨੭॥੨੪੬॥ नमो पारब्रहमी हरी सी मुकंदी ॥२७॥२४६॥
Thou art the maya of Unmanifested Brahman and the Shakti of Shiva! I salute Thee.27.246.

ਜਯੰਤੀ ਨਮੋ ਮੰਗਲਾ ਕਾਲਕਾਯੰ ॥ जयंती नमो मंगला कालकायं ॥
Thou art the bestower of cheerfulness to all, the conqueror of all and the manifestation of Kal (death).

ਕਪਾਲੀ ਨਮੋ ਭਦ੍ਰਕਾਲੀ ਸਿਵਾਯੰ ॥ कपाली नमो भद्रकाली सिवायं ॥
O Kapali! (the goddess carrying begging bowl), Shiva-Shakti! (the power of Shiva) and Bhadrakali!
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 293

And also:

Hence Sadhakas who desire Liberation should always think of the Svarupatattva of Brahmavidya Kalika. Of this Svarupa the Devi saysin Mahabhagavata : ' Those who long for Liberation should, in order togain freedom from the bonds of the body, meditate on that aspect(Rupa) of Mine which is the supreme Light (Jyotih), Sukshma,andNishkala, Nirguna, the all-pervading unbeginning, non-dual soleCausewhich is Sachchida-nanda Itself. This is the Svarupa of the Devi whichis beyond all mind and speech.'The Markandeya Purana says, ' TheMahamaya is Nishkala, Nirguna,endless, undecaying, unthinkable,formless and both eternal (Nitya.) and transient (Anitya)', that is,Mahainaya Kalika is free from Kala (Maya) and free from Gunas, withoutend, imperishable, eternal, and not transient as is the world (Jagat),formless, and hence, as such, is notthe object of meditation. In the Kurma Purana, Vishnu in the form of a Tortoise says that the Supreme Devi is Nirguna, pure, white, stainless,free from all duality and realizable by the Atma only. This state of Hers is attainable only by Jnana. In the Kamada Tantra, Shiva says 'That eternal Kali who is supreme Brahman is one without a second either male or female. She has neither form, Adhara, or Upadhi. She is sinless and imperishable Sach chida-nanda, the Great Brahman.'She who is eternal Brahman has neither appearance (Avirbhava) nordisappearance(Tirobhava), and being all-pervading, She cannot be said,like other Devas and Devis, to reside in any particular Loka. Om. Obeisance To The Supreme Devata. Part 6

Kalika is the Supreme Light. Nirguna. Endless. Undecaying. Formless and Eternal and also Transient, hence Nirgun-Sargun.

Kalika is Mother of the Universe. Free from Duality. The Supreme Brahman who is One without a second. Like no other Devas or Devis. The All-Pervading. The non-dual cause of SAT*CHIT*ANAND.

Now, that is a description of AKAAL Purakh Jio. Hence KAL is the Mayayog of Har Krishan. The Sudarshana Chakra of Maha Vishnu. She is the FORCE behind all the devatay and avtaray per the Markadheya Purana, same exact Purana on which Shri Dasam Granth is based. So you think it is accident that same exact description of KAL is given?

Sikhi does not envision Akaal Purakh as being masculine, neither doesDasam Granth describe Mahakaal as feminine. However you or other peopleinterpret those names is neither here nor there. And neither is whatHindu granths say about Mahakaal and the rest of their divinities sinceGurbani makes it very clear that the Devatay are not what they say theyare.

The underlying reality of all things is Akaal Purakh, but that does notmean that Devi or Shiva or I am Akaal Purakh This is something you seemunwilling to comprehend.

And yet, Shaheediyaan writes just below you that Sikhi has a purataan heritage of viewing the Akal Purakh as Chandi in sarguna. And also contradicts to establish what I said, as per reference to Bhai Avatar Singh Vahiria's comment that vocabulary of AKAAL Purakh is masculine in Guru Granth Sahib. So.... open your mind just a little. I'm not making things up. It's not the mainstream view, but it is a part of purataan Sikhi history. Can't you at least acknowledge that a view you don't agree with even exists? And that isn't my sole issue, it's the very root source of the conflict over Shri Dasam Granth bani from Singh Sabha persepctive since they denounce all sanatan imagery and reject totally these purataan sources as braminvaadi corruptions. So it really IS about Devi after all.

Khalsa Dharam Shaastar page 16-18

ਸਿਖ ਮਤ ਵਿਚ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਤੱਖ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਥਵਾਗੁਰਾਂ ਸੰਤਾਂ ਦਾ ਹੈ । ਤਥਾ ਹੀ ਭਗਵਤੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਤੱਖ ਧੇਇ ਸਰੂਪ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਆਦਿਕਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਅਸਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਦਾ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਹੈ ।
In Sikhism, to view the [sargun] form of Akal Purkh you can looktowards Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as well as Saints. Like this to the[sargun] form of Bhagvati [Devi/Chandi] for one to view weapons[shastar and astar].

ਭਗਵਤ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਪੁਲਿੰਗ ਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ ਕਰਕੇ ਮਹਿਮਾਂ ਸਭੋਾ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਆਦਿਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਤਥਾ ਦਸਮੇ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਲਖਮੀ ਭਗਵਤੀ ਸ਼ਕਤੀਮਾਤਾ ਦੀ ਦਸਮੇ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਤਥਾ ਲੋਹ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ ਨਾਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਵਿਚ ਹੈ ।
The vocabulary of praise of Bhagvat Akal Purkh in [Adi] Guru GranthSahib is masculine, it is also present in the 10th King's scripture[Dasam Granth]. Furthermore the praise of Lakhmi, Bhagvati, Shakti,Mata [all forms of Adi Shakti] are present in the 10th King's scripture[Dasam Granth] as well as Loh Prakash Granth [sri Sarbloh Granth Ji].

The Gurus were pooran avatar of Akaal Purakh, yet they forbade theirSikhs rom worshipping them. Compare this with the egotistical speech ofKrishna who claimed in the Bhagavad Gita that he was the SupremeHimself, and you may yet grasp why we do not worship any devatay oravatars and why Gurbani speaks of the ego of these avatars.

You're saying the Bhagavad-Gita is nothing but egotism of Bhagavan Krishna? Maybe you need to read Gurbani. This is what Gurbani says about Krishna. Seems to agree with Bhagavad-Gita. You have the ego to insult the sarguna of the Divine Parabrahm. Who do you think you are exactly? Trampling on their heads? If Guruji is speaking in context of pakrti and the temporal passing of Ages don't think it gives you any pedastal to look down at devatay. Dhaev still means Shining Lights of the Divine manifested here in sansaar. Avtar still means the Divine manifested. All the Puranas say Krishan is filled with all opulences and complete Purna avatar. For which reason His NAAMS, Gobinday, Mukunday, etc are what we JAP for praise of the Divine Parabrahm in Gurbani kirtan. Have respect and don't be arrogant. Gurbani also says Guru Nanak Dev Ji Jyot is of the SAME LINEAGE as Das Avataray and therefore is JYOT of HAR KRISHAN BHAGAVAN! We don't worship the rotting bodies of sarguna! We worship the eternal JYOT which is ONE UNITY DIVINE! So yes, we do bow hairs and ego to Guru Granth Sahib and worship the Guru God which is merged UNITY not a separation. You should have studied achint bheda abheda better instead of dismissing it, as it explains the difference and unity coexisting.

ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥

achuth paarabreham paramaesur antharajaamee ||

The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥

madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||

He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥

rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||

The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute.

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥

mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||

The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥

jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||

The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥

jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||

The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us.

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥

dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||

The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥

dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||

The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥

baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||

O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥

sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||

You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥

banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||

Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥

sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||

You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥

bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||

You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥

gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||

The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥

baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||

O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥

mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||

Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥

dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||

Savior of Dropadi's honor.

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥

kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||

Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥

amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||

The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥

akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||

His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥

abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||

O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥

sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||

The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥

mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||

By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥

kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||

The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥

niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||

He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥

dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||

He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥

saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||

He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥

banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||

He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥

sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||

His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

~SGGS Ji ang 1082

Matheen · February 13, 2010

ਸਵੈਯਾ ॥SWAYYA

ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਲਾ ਬਰਤੈ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਅਰੁ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਲਾ ਸਭ ਰੂਪਨ ਮੈ ॥ ਅਰੁ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਲਾ ਬਿਮਲਾ ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਕਮਲਾਪਤਿ ਕੇ ਕਮਲਾ ਤਨ ਮੈ ॥
She, whose power is present in the whole world and in all forms, whose power is present in Parvati, Vishnu and Lakshsmi,

ਪੁਨਿ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਲਾ ਗਿਰ ਰੂਖਨ ਮੈ ਸਸਿ ਪੂਖਨ ਮੈ ਮਘਵਾ ਘਨ ਮੈ ॥ ਤੁਮਹੂੰ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਕਲਾ ਜਗ ਮਾਨੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨ ਕਰੋ ਮਨ ਮੈ ॥੧੩੨੭॥
And whose power is present in the mountain, tree, sun, moon, Indra and clouds also; you have not adored that Bhavani, therefore now meditate on Her.1327.
http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=911

That is taken completely out of context. It's from a conversation between Krishna and Balram, where they are looking for reasons why they can't defeat Kharag Singh, and not updesh to us. Bear in mind that Krishna went on to lose that battle!

At the end of the narration, Guru Sahib gives their updesh:

ਆਦਿ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਗਾਧਿ ਸਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਿੱਧ ਸ੍ਵਰੂਪ ਸਭੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਗੰਧ੍ਰਬ ਜੱਛ ਮਹੀਧਰ ਨਾਗਨ ਭੂੰਮ ਅਕਾਸ਼ ਚਹੂੰ ਚਕ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥
आदि अनादि अगाधि सदा प्रभ सि्ध स्वरूप सभो पहिचानयो ॥ गंध्रब ज्छ महीधर नागन भूम अकाश चहूं चक जानयो ॥
All know that Lord as beginningless, unfathomable and adept-incarnate; the Gandharvas, Yakshas, men, Nagas consider him on the earth, sky and all the four directions;

ਲੋਕ ਅਲੋਕ ਦਿਸ਼ਾ ਬਿਦਿਸ਼ਾ ਅਰੁ ਦੇਵ ਅਦੇਵ ਦੁਹੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਚਿੱਤ ਅਗਯਾਨ ਸੁਜਾਨ ਸੁਯੰਭਵ ਕੌਨ ਕੀ ਕਾਨ ਨਿਧਾਨ ਭੁਲਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੧॥
लोक अलोक दिशा बिदिशा अरु देव अदेव दुहूं प्रभ मानयो ॥ चि्त अगयान सुजान सुय्मभव कौन की कान निधान भुलानयो ॥११॥
All the world, directions, anti-directions, gods, demons all worship Him; O ignorant mind ! by following whom, you have forgotten that self-exstent omniscient Lord ? 11.

ਕਹੂੰ ਲੈ ਠੋਕ ਬਧੇ ਉਰ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੌ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਕਹਯੋ ਹਰਿ ਮੰਦਰ ਮੈ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਸੀਤ ਕੈ ਬੀਚ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥
कहूं लै ठोक बधे उर ठाकुर काहूं महेश कौ एस बखानयो ॥ काहूं कहयो हरि मंदर मै हरि काहूं मसीत कै बीच प्रमानयो ॥
Someone has tied the stone-idol around his neck and someone has accepted Shiva as the Lord; someone considers the Lord within the temple or the mosque;

ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਯੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਕਹੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਨੈ ਅਵਤਾਰਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਜੀਅ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੨॥
काहूं ने राम कहयो क्रिशना कहु काहूं मनै अवतारन मानयो ॥ फोकट धरम बिसार सभै करतार ही कउ करता जीअ जानयो ॥१२॥
Someone calls him Ram or Krishna and someone believes in His incarnations, but my mind has forsaken all useless actions and has accepted only the One Creator.12.

ਜੌ ਕਹੌ ਰਾਮ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਅਜੈ ਅਤਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਕੌ ਕੌਸ਼ਲ ਕੁੱਖ ਜਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕਾਲ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹਿ ਕੌ ਕਿਹਿ ਕਾਰਣ ਕਾਲ ਤੇ ਦੀਨ ਭਯੋ ਜੂ ॥
जौ कहौ राम अजोनि अजै अति काहे कौ कौशल कु्ख जयो जू ॥ काल हूं काल कहै जिहि कौ किहि कारण काल ते दीन भयो जू ॥
If we consider Ram, the Lord as Unborn, then how did he take brith from the womb of Kaushalya ? He, who is said to be the KAL (destroyer) of KAL (death), then why did none become subjugated himself before KAL?

ਸੱਤ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਿਬੈਰ ਕਹਾਇ ਸੁ ਕਯੋਂ ਪਥ ਕੌ ਰਥ ਹਾਂਕ ਧਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਕੋਊ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਲੇਨ ਲਯੋ ਜੂ ॥੧੩॥
स्त सरूप बिबैर कहाइ सु कयों पथ कौ रथ हांक धयो जू ॥ ताही को मानि प्रभू करि कै जिह को कोऊ भेदु न लेन लयो जू ॥१३॥
If he is called the Truth-incarnate, beyond enmity and opposition, then why did he become the charioteer of Arjuna ? O mind ! you only consider him the Lord God, whose Mysetry could not be known to anyone.13.

ਕਯੋਂ ਕਹੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨਿਧ ਹੈ ਕਿਹ ਕਾਜ ਤੇ ਬੱਧਕ ਬਾਣ ਲਗਾਯੋ ॥ ਅਉਰ ਕੁਲੀਨ ਉਧਾਰਤ ਜੋ ਕਿਹ ਤੇ ਅਪਨੋ ਕੁਲ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਯੋ ॥
कयों कहु क्रिशन क्रिपानिध है किह काज ते ब्धक बाण लगायो ॥ अउर कुलीन उधारत जो किह ते अपनो कुल नासु करायो ॥
Krishna himself is considered the treasure of Grace, then why did the hunter shot his arrow at him ? He has been described as redeeming the clans of others then he caused the destruction of his own clan;

ਆਦਿ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਕਹਾਇ ਕਹੋ ਕਿਮ ਦੇਵਕਿ ਕੇ ਜਠਰੰਤਰ ਆਯੋ ॥ ਤਾਤ ਨ ਮਾਤ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਤਿਹ ਕਯੋਂ ਬਸੁਦੇਵਹਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥੧੪॥
आदि अजोनि कहाइ कहो किम देवकि के जठरंतर आयो ॥ तात न मात कहै जिह को तिह कयों बसुदेवहि बापु कहायो ॥१४॥
He is said to be unborn and beginningless, then how did he come into the womb of Devaki ? He , who is considered without any father or mother, then why did he cause Vasudev to be called his father?14.

ਕਾਹੇ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਮਹੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਭਾਖਤ ਕਾਹਿ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਹੈ ਨ ਰਘ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਜਦ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਰਮਾਪਤਿ ਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੌ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਨਾਥ ਪਛਾਨਯੋ ॥
काहे को एश महेशहि भाखत काहि दिजेश को एस बखानयो ॥ है न रघ्वेश जद्वेश रमापति तै जिन कौ बिस्वनाथ पछानयो ॥
Why do you consider Shiva or Brahma as the Lord ? There is none amongst Ram, Krishna and Vishnu, who may be considered as the Lord of the Universe by you;

ਏਕ ਕੋ ਛਾਡਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਜੈ ਸੁਕਦੇਵ ਪਰਾਸਰ ਬਯਾਸ ਝੁਠਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਸਜੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੌ ਬਿਧ ਨੈਕ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੫॥
एक को छाडि अनेक भजै सुकदेव परासर बयास झुठानयो ॥ फोकट धरम सजे सभ ही हम एक ही कौ बिध नैक प्रमानयो ॥१५॥
Relinquishing the One Lord, you remember many gods and goddesses; in this way you prove Shukdev, Prashar etc. as liars; all the so-called religions are hollow; I only accept the One Lord as the Providence.15.

ਕੋਊ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਬਤੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਕਹੈ ਬਿਸ਼ਨੋ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਇਕ ਜਾਹਿ ਭਜੇ ਅਘ ਓਘ ਕਟੈ ਹੈ ॥
कोऊ दिजेश को मानत है अरु कोऊ महेश को एश बतै है ॥ कोऊ कहै बिशनो बिशनाइक जाहि भजे अघ ओघ कटै है ॥
Someone tells Brahma as the Lord-God and someone tells the same thing about Shiva; someone considers Vishnu as the hero of the universe and says that only on remembering him, all the sins will be destroyed;

ਬਾਰ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਅਰੇ ਜੜ ਅੰਤ ਸਮੈ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਤਜਿ ਜੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਿ ਹੀਏ ਜੋਊ ਥੇ ਅਬ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਆਗੈ ਊ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥
बार हज़ार बिचार अरे जड़ अंत समै सभ ही तजि जै है ॥ ताही को धयान प्रमानि हीए जोऊ थे अब है अरु आगै ऊ ह्वै है ॥१६॥
O fool ! think about it a thousand times, all of them will leave you at the time of death, therefore, you should only meditate on Him, who is there in the present and who will also be there in future.16.

Harjas Kaur: please read Chaubis Avtar for the reality about Krishan.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Matheen

HarjasDevi · February 13, 2010

And congratulations on ruining another thread with your incessantchatter about Devi this and Devi that in a thread that had nothing todo with your Devi worshipping crap.

You are a liar as can be proven by reading all the threads about Devi. Why am I "ruining" a thread simply to discuss? What are you so afraid of? Why don't you actually look at the points and then honestly and intelligently discuss them instead of fighting with broad over-general invalidations?

Are you denying that Devi worship ever existed in the purataan Sikh Panth?

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Status Of Devi/chandi In Sikh Theology?

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