Status Of Devi/chandi In Sikh Theology?

[Kaljug]

ਨਮੋ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੀ ਹਰੀ ਸੀ ਮੁਕੰਦੀ ॥੨੭॥੨੪੬॥ नमो पारब्रहमी हरी सी मुकंदी ॥२७॥२४६॥

Thou art the maya of Unmanifested Brahman and the Shakti of Shiva! I salute Thee.27.246.

ਜਯੰਤੀ ਨਮੋ ਮੰਗਲਾ ਕਾਲਕਾਯੰ ॥ जयंती नमो मंगला कालकायं ॥

Thou art the bestower of cheerfulness to all, the conqueror of all and the manifestation of Kal (death).

ਕਪਾਲੀ ਨਮੋ ਭਦ੍ਰਕਾਲੀ ਸਿਵਾਯੰ ॥ कपाली नमो भद्रकाली सिवायं ॥

O Kapali! (the goddess carrying begging bowl), Shiva-Shakti! (the power of Shiva) and Bhadrakali!

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 293

Are you actually thick or has your gooroo's foot juice destropyed too many of your brain cells? That is part of Dasmesh Pita's translation of Markandeya Purana. It's ever so slightly idiotic to claim that this then proves Durga is what she is claimed to be in Shakta doctrine. Yes, Durga is a manifestation of Kal, as is Rama who destroyed Ravana and Kumbhakaran, and so on -

but THEY ARE NOT KAL.

You are a liar as can be proven by reading all the threads about Devi.

LOL. You mean every single thread you have posted on that has become a thread about your devi?

Why am I "ruining" a thread simply to discuss? What are you so afraid of? Why don't you actually look at the points and then honestly and intelligently discuss them instead of fighting with broad over-general invalidations

?

BECAUSE THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT YOU NOR YOUR IDOL WORSHIPPING STUPIDITY, YOU IGNORANT AND OBNOXIOUS FOOL! How many fricken times do people have to say it before it penetrates that dense skull of yours? If you want to make a thread about how great devi is and howgreat your gooroo's feet taste, then go right ahead. But STOP entering every thread with the same propaganda you have been spewing since you got here.

Are you denying that Devi worship ever existed in the purataan Sikh Panth?

Wiping one's ass with putay may have existed in the puratan Sikh Panth, but I don't think it is worth discussing since it has nothing to do with Sikhi.

I'm sorry, but it's clear that you are simply here to promote Devi worship, and to justify your own bemukh actions to us and I believe to yourself also, despite your occasional protestations to the contrary. Why else would you say "I'm not suggesting Sikhs should worship Devatay" and then say "oh, but puratan Sikhs worshipped Devi so it's OK".

I suggest that you see a shrink instead of using this forum to work through your religious confusion.

K.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Kaljug

[singh2]

Most of quotes by harjas kaur are crap and taken out of context.

Durga's specifications have been fixed by tenth master in Dasam Granth. She is creation of God and is shown as a historical figure. Nowhere she is shown as absolute Goddess as Hindus think.

What harjas wrirtes as devi ju ki ustat, that ustat is of akal purakh and not of any devi. She needs to read this with her eyes open and not shut.

Edited February 13, 2010 by singh2

[singh2]

I was born and brought up in Punjab.No one among sikhs venerate any Devi.For nihungs chandi or bhagauti is kirpan and not any multi armed devi.

Dasma granth is very clear on positions of these demigods. if some sikh writers have made some mistakes in their writings those do not represnt sikh view.

ਅਨਹਦ ਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਦ ਬਾਨੀ ॥

अनहद रूप अनाहद बानी ॥

He is Limitless Entity and hath infinite celestial strain.

ਚਰਨ ਸਰਨਿ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਤ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥

चरन सरनि जिह बसत भवानी ॥

The goddess Durga takes refuge at His Feet and abides there.

Akal ustat, Dasam Granth

There are a lot of metaphorical names used in dasam Granth. Nowhere they represent sargun form of God.

Edited February 13, 2010 by singh2

[singh2]

If we read Dasam Granth sahib carefully belief of Guru sahib is evident.

Guru sahib writes in Bachitra natak

ਯਾ ਕਲ ਮੈਂ ਸਭ ਕਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਕੇ ਭਾਰੀ ਭੁਜਾਨ ਕੋ ਭਾਰੀ ਭਰੋਸੋ ॥੯੨॥

या कल मैं सभ काल क्रिपान के भारी भुजान को भारी भरोसो ॥९२॥

In this Iron age or kalyug, i repose my supreme trust in KAL, Who is the Sword-incarnate and hath mighty arms.92.

ਸੁੰਭ ਨਿਸੁੰਭ ਸੇ ਕੋਟ ਨਿਸਾਚਰ ਜਾਹਿ ਛਿਨੇਕ ਬਿਖੈ ਹਨਿ ਡਾਰੇ ॥

सु्मभ निसु्मभ से कोट निसाचर जाहि छिनेक बिखै हनि डारे ॥

He, who hath destroyed millions of demons like Sumbh and Nisumbh in and instant.

ਧੂਮਰਲੋਚਨ ਚੰਡ ਔ ਮੁੰਡ ਸੇ ਮਾਹਿਖ ਸੇ ਪਲ ਬੀਚ ਨਿਵਾਰੇ ॥

धूमरलोचन चंड औ मुंड से माहिख से पल बीच निवारे ॥

Who hath annihilated in and instant the demons like Dhumarlochan, Chand, Mund and Mahishasura.

ਚਾਮਰ ਸੇ ਰਣਿ ਚਿੱਛਰ ਸੇ ਰਕਤਿੱਛਣ ਸੇ ਝਟ ਦੈ ਝਝਕਾਰੇ ॥

चामर से रणि चि्छर से रकति्छण से झट दै झझकारे ॥

Who hath immediately thrashed and thrown down far away the demons like Chamar, Ranchichchhar and Rakat Beej.

ਐਸੋ ਸੁ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਪਾਇ ਕਹਾ ਪਰਵਾਹ ਰਹੀ ਇਹ ਦਾਸ ਤਿਹਾਰੇ ॥੯੩॥

ऐसो सु साहिब पाइ कहा परवाह रही इह दास तिहारे ॥९३॥

On realizing the Lord like Thee, this servant of yours doth not care for anyone else.93.

Bachitra natak

The above makes it clear crystal clear that for Guru sahib akal purakh was supreme entity.Furtehr He writes

ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਔ ਬਿਸਨ ਜਪੇ ਤੁਹਿ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਭਲੀ ਬਿਧਿ ਧਿਆਯੋ ॥

क्रिसन औ बिसन जपे तुहि कोटिक राम रहीम भली बिधि धिआयो ॥

Thou hast meditated on millions of Krishnas, Vishnus, Ramas and Rahims.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਜਪਿਓ ਅਰੁ ਸੰਭੁ ਥਪਿਓ ਤਹਿ ਤੇ ਤੁਹਿ ਕੋ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨ ਬਚਾਯੋ ॥

ब्रहम जपिओ अरु स्मभु थपिओ तहि ते तुहि को किनहूं न बचायो ॥

Thou hast recited the name of Brahma and established Shivalingam, even then none could save thee.

Bachitra natak

[HarjasDevi]

Are you actually thick or has your gooroo's foot juice destropyed too many of your brain cells? That is part of Dasmesh Pita's translation of Markandeya Purana. It's ever so slightly idiotic to claim that this then proves Durga is what she is claimed to be in Shakta doctrine. Yes, Durga is a manifestation of Kal, as is Rama who destroyed Ravana and Kumbhakaran, and so on -

but THEY ARE NOT KAL.

1. Yes, Durga is a manifestation of KAL, as is Rama...

but they are NOT KAL. Hmmm.

So, KAL is working through them to achieve righteous actions which the bani says are praiseworthy.... but they are somehow different and acting in unrelated way? OR the all-pervading nature of the Supreme is present there but we see the True Reality as Nirgun and sargun as only temporary forms? Because if there is only ONE without a second, then sargun doesn't compete with nirgun or take anything away. Yet, we would be foolish to cling to the passing away forms and not worship the Divine One Jyot behind them.

Remember Achintya Bheda Abheda? Doctrine of difference in Oneness? Sargun IS in fact Nirguna. Sorry Jio. But you don't have to accept my belief. You can disagree without trashing me personally or disrespecting these beliefs. I think you just like to be an outrageous person. But fact is you show that you have no respect or humility for spiritual things if they are different from what you believe in. If I trashed Guru Sahibaan the way you trash my Guru and Hindu Mat you would want to murder me. Think about how you want other people to treat what is precious to you before treating them like a dog. You have no respectful love for spiritual things, and that is definitely NOT the message of Gurbani. Gurbani is showing so much love to everybody's spirituality, even calling religion of invaders as true and pointing them to the highest good of their religion. You can't even do the same?

2. A Guru's feet are despicable now?

ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਣ ਸਰੇਵਣੇ ਤੀਰਥ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਉ ॥

gur kae charan saraevanae theerathh har kaa naao ||

Worship the Feet of the Guru. Let the Name of the Lord be your sacred shrine of pilgrimage.

~SGGS Ji ang 52

ਤਿਸੁ ਚਰਣ ਪਖਾਲੀ ਜੋ ਤੇਰੈ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਚਾਲੈ ॥

this charan pakhaalee jo thaerai maarag chaalai ||

I wash the feet of those who walk upon Your Path.

~SGGS Ji ang 102

ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਕੀ ਚਰਣੀ ਲਾਗੁ ॥੨॥

santh janaa kee charanee laag ||2||

and hold tight to the Feet of the Saints.

~SGGS Ji ang 177

ਧਨਿ ਮਸਤਕ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਹੀ ਪਰਸ ॥

dhhan masathak charan kamal hee paras ||

Blessed is the forehead which touches His Lotus Feet.

~SGGS Ji ang 201

LOL. You mean every single thread you have posted on that has become a thread about your devi?

No. But this one clearly is. A Singh even posted Her picture!

BECAUSE THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT YOU NOR YOUR IDOL WORSHIPPING STUPIDITY, YOU IGNORANT AND OBNOXIOUS FOOL! How many fricken times do people have to say it before it penetrates that dense skull of yours? If you want to make a thread about how great devi is and howgreat your gooroo's feet taste, then go right ahead. But STOP entering every thread with the same propaganda you have been spewing since you got here.

You call yourself a Singh? You are judgmental, abusive, obnoxious, disrespectful, irreverent punk. You are trashing own Sikhi heritage trying desperately to trash me. Don't you ever read Gurbani? You should have respect for ancient tradition of charan pahul, because Sikhs were drinking same kind of foot wash of Guru Sahibaan and did not despise and treat in such irreverent ways. You are really an atheist right? You cannot believe in God when you talk down the way you down about other people's religion.

I don't have any murthis in my house veer ji. Why do you falsely accuse so much? You think you know everything about me to trash and slander freely? Who gave you the right to judge and condemn and abuse in public? Are you so holy? I am your punching bag to kick around and spew venom of hate on? What kind of man are you who has such little self-control? Not a Khalsa Singh, that's for sure. A Khalsa Singh has respect for Gurbani and doesn't belittle and mock holy tradition of charan pahul.

ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਣ ਧੋਇ ਧੋਇ ਪੀਵਾ ॥੧॥

gur kae charan dhhoe dhhoe peevaa ||1||

I wash the Guru's Feet, and drink in this water.

~SGGS Ji ang 239

ਚਰਨ ਸਾਧ ਕੇ ਧੋਇ ਧੋਇ ਪੀਉ ॥

charan saadhh kae dhhoe dhhoe peeo ||

Wash the feet of the Holy, and drink in this water.

~SGGS Ji ang 283

ਮਨੁ ਬਿਗਸੈ ਸਾਧ ਚਰਨ ਧੋਇ ॥

man bigasai saadhh charan dhhoe ||

My mind blossoms forth in ecstasy, washing the feet of the Holy.

~SGGS Ji ang 290

ਕਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਚਰਨ ਪਖਾਰੈ ਸੰਤ ਧੂਰਿ ਤਨਿ ਲਾਵੈ ॥

kar sang saadhhoo charan pakhaarai santh dhhoor than laavai ||

He joins the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, and washes their feet;

he applies the dust of the Saints to his body.

~SGGS Ji ang 381

Wiping one's ass with putay may have existed in the puratan Sikh Panth, but I don't think it is worth discussing since it has nothing to do with Sikhi.

You have serious problems. I feel sorry for you. people like you are the reason for so much hatred against people with other beliefs.

I'm sorry, but it's clear that you are simply here to promote Devi worship, and to justify your own bemukh actions to us and I believe to yourself also, despite your occasional protestations to the contrary. Why else would you say "I'm not suggesting Sikhs should worship Devatay" and then say "oh, but puratan Sikhs worshipped Devi so it's OK".

I suggest that you see a shrink instead of using this forum to work through your religious confusion.

I don't "promote" anything. I am pointing out some obvious historical facts about traditional Sikhi which existed. Some reason you think that gives you a license to be rude and abusive to my personal character and beliefs. You are the one who is sick. Just look at the way you talk to people, like they are garbage in your eyes. Just like before you went on about how my mouth was full of feces. I think YOU are the one deliberately provoking and then having childish tantrums any comments that contradict your personal views and in rage derailing them with personal attacks and abusive talk to get threads stopped and locked.

That's how cowardly you are about discussing a subject like intelligent man instead of spoiled egotistical child who heaps abuse instead of discusses. Mock me all you want but don't mock God, don't mock spiritual practices, and don't demean and trash other religions.

Grow up, for real. You need some help.

ਮਿਥਿਆ ਚਰਨ ਪਰ ਬਿਕਾਰ ਕਉ ਧਾਵਹਿ ॥

mithhiaa charan par bikaar ko dhhaavehi ||

False are the feet which run to do evil to others.

~SGGS Ji ang 269

Trash, abuse, get emo and hysterical, rant and rage and lock all the threads you want to.

You cannot change the sanatan history or erase Devi from Sikhi Panth. Even if you succeed in banning me with all your provocations and allegations about "ruining," you cannot erase Devi. For one thing, your Divine Mother will be there when you die, loving you.

[Matheen]

Do you actually read preceding posts that refute your theories and choose to ignore them , or are you so confused that you fail to see them in the first place?

[HarjasDevi]

Do you actually read preceding posts that refute your theories and choose to ignore them , or are you so confused that you fail to see them in the first place?

I don't at all agree the interpretations of the rebuttals. You won't convince me and I won't convince you. We don't have to share the same belief to discuss similarities, differences or controversies.

Tell me, why does my opinion even matter to you? You don't like my views fine! Ignore my posts, or write a rebuttal of my points. Why bring me personally into it? You want to add to all the slanders and demeaning? Talk to the articles I wrote. It isn't about me personally or your judgment and condemnation of my "confusion."

There are like a billion billion Hindu's who you won't convince. So why bother? We can discuss. If someone is citing bani that contradicts I have to go back and look at that. But when some bloke says he was born in Punjab and he never heard of Devi, blah blah, that's the most unpersuasive pind ignorance having nothing to do with all the sanatan murals whitewashed all over Punjab during Singh Sabha ascendancy. Arguments like that and things which attack me as a brain damaged mentally ill person and mock charan pahul are simply abusive and no, do not persuade me at all.

In fact, it really cheapens your forum that you people can't even have discussions which do not degenerate into blame and shame sessions when confronted by a different belief. It should be a very high quality intellectual forum which analyzes all points of view. Seriously going on the invalidation attack mode every time you see something you don't agree with is paranoid.

You don't HAVE to attack a belief you can easily counter with your different interpretation. But seriously accept that there is more than one interpretation historically and you don't have Sikh-ISM in your hip pocket to disqualify other people personally. You don't have God in your hip pocket to put down views and religious beliefs of others. Seriously Sikhi belongs to the world, and that includes Hindus who will interpret as Hindus. Live with it and stop acting like you own God.

Express your Sikhi view, you can do it respectfully and effectively without resorting to personal qualities the other person. No one's stopping your right to discuss. And I'm not personally attacking anyone's qualities to express my view or debate evidence presented.

[Satgyan-pujari]

Singh2 you Quoted[There are a lot of metaphorical names used in dasam Granth. Nowhere they represent sargun form of God.]

Sukhmani sahib states Wahiguru ji as both Sargun /Nirgun, what is understood as sargun svarup of Akal Purakh?are not the Names used to bring us a clear picture of the power of Wahiguru being unlimited and so develop love and pyar.And if they do not represent the Sargun form of God,what exactly DO they represent,because Nirgun Wahiguru is absoultley beyond description and thinking (abstract) ?

Edited February 13, 2010 by Satgyan-pujari

[Ghostface Killah]

I dont see the point of worshiping a devi, when you can worship akaal purakh.

[Kaljug]

I don't at all agree the interpretations of the rebuttals. You won't convince me and I won't convince you. We don't have to share the same belief to discuss similarities, differences or controversies.

Well, thanks for revealing your complete lack of desire to understand Gurmat for what it is and your complete devotion to your own manmat.

Tell me, why does my opinion even matter to you? You don't like my views fine!

Because you attempt to promote your opinion as an "alternative interpretation" of Sikhi instead of the diseased thoughts of a damaged mind that refuses to acknowledge anything else but its own manmat. Other than that, your views, and the views of the billion of Hindus are irrelevant as they have no say as to what Gumat is.

But when some bloke says he was born in Punjab and he never heard of Devi, blah blah, that's the most unpersuasive pind ignorance having nothing to do with all the sanatan murals whitewashed all over Punjab during Singh Sabha ascendancy.

Is that an "alternative interpretation" of singh2's post above. He said that he knew of no Singhs who worship devi. Is alleging that I said you literally have faeces in your mouth your "alternative interpretation" of me telling you that you suffer frm verbal diarrhoea? Seriously, if you cannot even read a post on a forum without understanding it, what hope do you have of understanding Gurbani?

Oh, and there's no need to tell us that our tuks fail to convince you, because you have already said above that you will no be convinced.

In fact, it really cheapens your forum that you people can't even have discussions which do not degenerate into blame and shame sessions when confronted by a different belief. It should be a very high quality intellectual forum which analyzes all points of view. Seriously going on the invalidation attack mode every time you see something you don't agree with is paranoid.

No, paranoid would be someone screaming about devi in every thread and how every Sikh here is trying to "erase" devi (I guess you must be really important and special to have to single handedly protect the goddess, right?), talking about Singh Sabha conspiracies and suspect translations that you have not even read when someone shows you tuks that contradict your beliefs, and trying to maintain a facade of righteous indignation when your utter stupidity is called out for what it is.

And I'm not personally attacking anyone's qualities to express my view or debate evidence presented.

What's to debate when you have already decided that you are right and everything else is a conspiracy?

And please, you have already insuted Guru Ji by breaking your rehat and drinking the foot juice of some moorakh who believes she a right to twist Sikhi to prmote her dehdari devi cult, so don't start whining about me calling a spade a spade and your gooroo a cult leader.

And no, I'm not part of some conspiracy to get you banned. In fact, I enjoy watching you try to "explain" a Gurbani tuk through torturous verbal manipulations and a 3000 word essay so it fits into your own unique and curious belief system when it is abundantly clear to everyone else what the tuk means.

I do however believe that you should be restricted and your posts moderated so that anything you write that has nothing to do with the topic is deleted. This is because you have destroyed every thread you have entered after you have steered it in the direction of your devi cult teachings.

K.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Kaljug

[HarjasDevi]

I dont see the point of worshiping a devi, when you can worship akaal purakh.

This is okay to believe. But how can you worship that which is agochar? Ungraspable, unfathomable?

By what NAAM do you call the One who has no form to describe? There is no NAAM you can jap which speaks a quality of that which has no qualities.

There is no mental picture your mind could fathom or imagine which could come even close to the infinity. It is of another dimensionality. Like we are 2 dimensional drawings boasting how we worship only the real reality which is greater than million dimensions. We only IMAGINE what the God is like, and we would finish ourselves even trying to describe small iota of Him.

Now, this doesn't mean that a Sikh worships Devi. But in sanatan Granths there are descriptions of Sikhs worshipping Devi. So not entirely unheard of. But the point I've been trying to make, even simple Hindu people when they pray to murthis and have istha devata are still believing in the same Divine Reality our language imprecisely calls "God." Everyone prays according to their own best understanding. You should never pray in a way that doesn't feel right to you. If you want to describe the God as AKAAL, this is purataan Gurmat Gursikhi. Only know that calling does ot really describe the unfathomable and that because of duality consciousness and exisiting in material pakrti, that everyone here is idol worshipping in some way, from faulty perception, limited concepts, human finite incapacity.

So really condemnation and judgmentalism are wrong approach.

Follow your best Gurmat Gursikhi as you believe, just don't become someone who condemns others beliefs and practices. if you really think they are wrong and want to try to help them understand better, do it with love, like a friend.

The love you give is the love you receive. We are all in the same boat really. All our understanding of God, Reality, each other is distorted and limited. Saints, as you notice love the whole world.

[singh2]

Singh2 you Quoted[There are a lot of metaphorical names used in dasam Granth. Nowhere they represent sargun form of God.]

Sukhmani sahib states Wahiguru ji as both Sargun /Nirgun, what is understood as sargun svarup of Akal Purakh?are not the Names used to bring us a clear picture of the power of Wahiguru being unlimited and so develop love and pyar.And if they do not represent the Sargun form of God,what exactly DO they represent,because Nirgun Wahiguru is absoultley beyond description and thinking (abstract) ?

Waheguru as sargun means he is also in his creation.That creation includes you, me, all humanity and Durga also.

In Hinduism avtar means God descends from heaven to earth and lives there.Sikhism does not endorse that.

Edited February 13, 2010 by singh2

[singh2]

Sikhs are facing two enemies.One enemy is within that says Dasam granth sahib is not written by Guru sahib.

Then there is external enemy that says that SGGS ji and Dasam Granth contain verses that are written in praise of deities.

Both are dead wrong.

[HarjasDevi]

>>I don't at all agree theinterpretations of the rebuttals. You won't convince me and I won'tconvince you. We don't have to share the same belief to discusssimilarities, differences or controversies.<<Well, thanks for revealing your complete lack of desire to understandGurmat for what it is and your complete devotion to your own manmat.

What unbelievable arrogance to actually think that your opinion equals Gurmat and that you can judge and condemn other people in hysterically abusive ways and convince them of anything.

Because you attempt to promote your opinion as an "alternative interpretation" of Sikhi instead of the diseased thoughts of a damaged mind that refuses to acknowledge anything else but its own manmat.

All you know is put downs and insults. I'm completely convinced you have no concept of God or spiritual things.

Is that an "alternative interpretation" of singh2's post above. He said that he knew of no Singhs who worship devi. Is alleging that I said you literally have faeces in your mouth your "alternative interpretation" of me telling you that you suffer frm verbal diarrhoea? Seriously, if you cannot even read a post on a forum without understanding it, what hope do you have of understanding Gurbani?

Calling people who post in discussion as verbal diarrhea is real mature. What a Pure-hearted Khalsa Sikh!

Oh, and there's no need to tell us that our tuks fail to convince you, because you have already said above that you will no be convinced.

There is reason to suspect the translation may not be reflecting the best accuracy because there is a HUGE history of anti-sanatan Singh Sabhia alteration. But I'm willing to investigate that. And no, I won't be convinced by you at all. You are completely discredited in my eyes as being any kind of spiritual person with anything to teach due to your own out of control hostility and anti-Hindu abusiveness.

No, paranoid would be someone screaming about devi in every thread and how every Sikh here is trying to "erase" devi (I guess you must be really important and special to have to single handedly protect the goddess, right?),

Panth Prakash was proven on this forum of editing out Devi references. That isn't paranoia. But your rabid denials are.

talking about Singh Sabha conspiracies and suspect translations that you have not even read when someone shows you tuks that contradict your beliefs, and trying to maintain a facade of righteous indignation when your utter stupidity is called out for what it is.

You don't have any right to be hatefully abusive to anyone. Abusing and bullying a viewpoint on a public forum is stupid veer ji.

And please, you have already insuted Guru Ji by breaking your rehat and drinking the foot juice of some moorakh who believes she a right to twist Sikhi to prmote her dehdari devi cult, so don't start whining about me calling a spade a spade and your gooroo a cult leader.

I don't have a cult. Entire sanatana Dharma isn't a "cult." And you aren't in place of Guru Ji to judge and condemn me like you are. You aren't even respectable person. And I have never baited, berated or insulted Guru Sahibaan why in the hell do you assume the right to attack and insult a Guru of Hindu religion as it suits your abusive mentality?

Who gave you the right?

And no, I'm not part of some conspiracy to get you banned. In fact, watching you try to "explain" a Gurbani tuk so it fits into your own unique and curious belief system in a 3000 word essay when it is abundantly clear to everyone else what the tuk means.

I do however believe that you should be restricted and your posts moderated so that anything you write that has nothing to do with the topic is deleted. This is because you have destroyed every thread you have entered after you have steered it in the direction of your devi cult teachings.

You should have been banned a long time ago for outrageous insults, flaming and non-stop derailing personal attacks suitable to a grade school then an adult discussion forum. You disgrace Sikhi. You are the one destroying threads and creating an abusively hostile environment here.

[singh2]

harjas

Sikhs are not idol worshippers.Sikhs are idol breakers( No offense to any religion).

Sikhs are not believers in caste system that is backbone of sanatan dharma.

Please keep sanatan dharma to yourself and do not preach those ideas to us.

It is a shame that you have chosen this site in propagating your malicious agneda here.There are millions and millions of low caste Hindus who are leading sub servient life in India.Please channelise your energy in removing disparity in Hindu society there so that they are accorded human diginty.Otherwise you are losing them to otehr religions.That should be top your priority if you care for Hinduism.Stop converting sikhs.

We wish all religions best, respect them and consider religions as different paths in achieving union with God.

Edited February 13, 2010 by singh2

[HarjasDevi]

Waheguru as sargun means he is also in his creation.That creation includes you, me, all humanity and Durga also.

In Hinduism avtar means God descends to earth and lives there.That iswhy these deities are called demigods.Sikhism does not endorse that.

1. So are you saying that any human being, yourself for example is just the same as Chandi?

You slay demons and uphold Dharma and wield the Sudarshana Chakra of the All-Pervading Light? Really? On weekends maybe.

2. Hindu Mat doesn't endorse demi-gods either. But you will endlessly insist it does because you need to set up a straw man you can artificially knock down.

And how do you explain Gurbani that calls Guru Sahibaan as avatars? Do you bow your hairs to this bani and call as Guru? Yet you disbelieve what it says?

ਚਾਰੇ ਕੁੰਡਾਂ ਸੁਝੀਓਸੁ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥

chaarae kunddaan sujheeous man mehi sabadh paravaan ||

You understand the four corners of the universe; in your mind, the Word of the Shabad is approved and supreme.

ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿਓ ਕਰਿ ਨਦਰਿ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥

aavaa goun nivaariou kar nadhar neesaan ||

You eliminate the comings and goings of reincarnation, and bestow the insignia of Your Glance of Grace.

ਅਉਤਰਿਆ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ਲੈ ਸੋ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥

aouthariaa aouthaar lai so purakh sujaan ||

You are the Avataar, the Incarnation of the all-knowing Primal Lord.

~SGGS Ji ang 968

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਰਸਿਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੬॥

har naam rasik naanak gur raaj jog thai maaniou ||6||

You are blessed with the Nectar of the Lord's Name, O Guru Nanak;

You have mastered Raja Yoga, and enjoy sovereignty over both worlds.

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥

sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥

thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥

dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥

ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||

You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥

kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak,

Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥

sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||

The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent,

according the Command of the Primal Lord God.

~SGGS Ji ang 1390

ਕਹੁ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਕਲ ਸਹਾਰ ਸਪਤ ਦੀਪ ਮਝਾਰ ਲਹਣਾ ਜਗਤ੍ਰ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਸਿ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ॥੨॥

kahu keerath kal sehaar sapath dheep majhaar lehanaa jagathr gur paras muraar ||2||

O Kal Sahaar, chant the Praises of Lehnaa throughout the seven continents;

He met with the Lord, and became Guru of the World.

ਤੈ ਤਉ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਿਓ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਬਿਮਲ ਜਾਸੁ ਬਿਥਾਰੁ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਸੁਜਨ ਜੀਆ ਕੋ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥

thai tho dhrirriou naam apaar bimal jaas bithhaar saadhhik sidhh sujan jeeaa ko adhhaar ||

You hold tight to the Naam, the Name of the Infinite Lord; Your expanse is immaculate.

You are the Support of the Siddhas and seekers, and the good and humble beings.

ਤੂ ਤਾ ਜਨਿਕ ਰਾਜਾ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ਸਾਰੁ ਰਹਹਿ ਜਗਤ੍ਰ ਜਲ ਪਦਮ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥

thoo thaa janik raajaa aouthaar sabadh sansaar saar rehehi jagathr jal padham beechaar ||

You are the incarnation of King Janak; the contemplation of Your Shabad is sublime

throughout the universe. You abide in the world like the lotus on the water.

~SGGS Ji ang 1391

3. Sikhs are facing two enemies.One enemy is within that says Dasam granth sahib is not written by Guru sahib. Then there is external enemy that says that SGGS ji and Dasam Granth contain verses that are written in praise of deities. Both are dead wrong.

[Satgyan-pujari]

Waheguru as sargun means he is also in his creation.That creation includes you, me, all humanity and Durga also.

In Hinduism avtar means God descends from heaven to earth and lives there.Sikhism does not endorse that.

Bhai sahib the word Avtar is also used by bhai Gurdas ji in describing Guru Maharaj.Was Guru Sahib not sargun svarup of Wahiguru who MANIFESTED (not same as taking birth) in the world using his maya shakti? How can we possibly merge in Nirgun Swarup Wahiguru without the Sargun swarup SATGURU, the Shabad Guru?

Are we not capable of worshiping the unlimited Akal Purukh through the vismad of his creation his leela, seeing him permeating as the sole support of everything.

[HarjasDevi]

harjas

Sikhs are not idol worshippers.Sikhs are idol breakers( No offense to any religion).

Sikhs are idol breakers? Their own or other peoples idols veer ji? Please clarify.

Sikhs are not believers in caste system that is backbone of sanatan dharma.

Can you explain the difference between caste system and varna-jati system? Because Vedas AND Gurbani explains the varna-jati system as being altogether different from what has evolved into the oppressive caste system.

Please keep sanatan dharma to yourself and do not preach those ideas to us.

First of all, it's a discussion forum and the topics on it are discussing sanatan heritage of purataan granths in Sikhi history. If you feel the forum should be closed to anyone who is not a Khalsa Sikh then it should be expressly stated that way in the Rules section, that nobody but Khalsa Sikhs can express their opinions. And all the others should be banned to prevent them from contaminating your pure idea of spirituality. But please, in justice then remove the Hindu discussion forum and the Christian, Buddhist and Islamic ones as well, since having them advertises the forum is open to other perspectives then the narrow Tat Khalsa one. And that is false advertising.

It is a shame that you have chosen this site in propagating your malicious agneda here.There are millions and millions of low caste Hindus who are leading sub servient life in India.Please channelise your energy in removing disparity in Hindu society there so that they are accorded human diginty.Otherwise you are losing them to otehr religions.That should be top your priority if you care for Hinduism.Stop converting sikhs.

My opinions are a malicious agenda? And I suppose I am single-handedly responsible for Panth Prakash, Suraj Prakash, Prem Sumarag, Gur Bilas, Sau Sakhis, Janam Sakhis, Sarbloh Granth which speak of sanatan themse, symbolism, philosphy and spirituality?

And now I am responsible for removing caste system in India? Even as Sikh Panth has huge problem getting along with Mahzbi Sikhs and Chamar Sikhs? What hypocrisy! Are you kidding me?

My Hindu Guru is from shudra caste. What a joke you are. Why are you blaming our sampraday for abuses of caste system? Of course, because you have only low regard for HIndu religion, and despite presence of Sant Bhagat bani in Gurbani, you don't even believe spirituality is possible in Hindu Mat.

I don't believe in conversions, so people leaving Hinduism is responsibility of the God. I don't go around trying to bully people to stay or leave in any religion. I just wish Sikh would look at brotherhood with Hindus even to accept overlap in history and stop hating and blaming everything evil as being Hindu.

Stop converting Sikhs?

Converting them to what exactly?

I believe in Nama Jap! I believe you must have a Satguru and receive initiation and become a true disciple! I believe in sankirtan and keeping amrit vela to practice Nama Smarana/simran and dhyaan! I believe in reading Gurbani as medicine for the atma and cure and comfort for world's ills! I believe in respecting the Maryada of respecting Shri Guru Granth Sahib and should not belong in Hindu Mandir or anyplace not expressly built specifically and solely for Shri Guru Granth Sahib!

You see, I don't want you to be anything but a Sikh. But I think you should be open to the fact that sanatan heritage does exist in Sikhi as accepting legitimacy of devatay and avtaray and even within certain traditional Sikh sampraday such as Udasay, Nirmalay, Seva-panthis, Namdharis, Nanaksaris, Sant Nirankaris, Radhasoamis in varying and lesser degrees. I don't say you should believe in or join sanatan sampraday. But why you can't tolerate or accept the existance of sanatan views is beyond me. Ever been to a college? Notice how people of all different beliefs can come together and have interesting and challenging discussions without wanting to shut down the person who's views the majority doesn't share? See, that's intellectual maturity. That's an open, free environment and a tolerant atmosphere to promote inquiry, discussion and learning.

Shutting down a topic or viewpoint because it is different and perceived as threatening is called REPRESSION. You are repressing points of view trying to make them go away. And they won't go away because people will never all think alike. Neither do even Sikhi Panth all agree.

We wish all religions best, respect them and consider religions as different paths in achieving union with God.

No, you really don't. I've read Dal Khalsa's diatribe against dera sampraday. I've read the abusively anti-Hindu posts here. You like to imagine that you are well-wishing religion like Hindu, but you own condemnation of caste system, even as Sikh's today are mired down with same exact troubles caste discrimination. Clean your own house before accusing the dirt in someone elses.

And see, I know Sikhs are guilty of this. But I don't blame High and noble spirituality of Guru Sahibaan for it, the way you blame Hindu religion for problems of corrupted people. So you have really low opinion of Hindu religion and are just pretending to yourself about believing it is authentic path to the God.

"We wish..." Nice how you think you can speak for all of Sikhi Panth. Next time skip the royal "we" and just speak in singular as your own opinion.

Edited February 13, 2010 by HarjasKaur

[HarjasDevi]

I am sorry in advance for my outburst, but can someone explain how the&^#k this thread changes from above to topic of status ofdevi/chandi and full of personal attacks. &*ck!^# unbelievable..!!!

Simple. Chandi di vaar. Ergo, Chandi. Some are saying it is Chandi sarguna and others saying it is Akal Purakh nirguna only.

Then if certain people see any non Khalsa Sikh opinion on Chandi it is their license to spew verbal abuse and hostility with personal attacks trying to shut down the discussion, just like on several other threads. It is intolerance at work that certain section of Sikhi finds devatay and avtaray to be anti-Gurmat and therefore despiseable. If they don't like my Hindu Mat they trash and mock my Guru.

Do you allow that? Flaming and personal attacks? If it were a sampraday they were trashing in such rude ways would it be permissible? Or is it only permissible because it's me and my hatefully despised sanatan viewpoint?

If same exact attacks, accusations and vile insults were made against Nirmalay would you speak out then? Because it isn't hard to see what's going on and who is the worst offender of common decency in a discussion. Tell me, do you agree the huge disrespect of charan pahul and calling my Guru as a cult? Everything is fake, evil, corrupted, despiseable, disgusting, open to vicious slander and tearing down, and then they think they have some great spiritual truth anybody else will be convinced of?

Do you really think all other views about God are this low and condemnable? Then if not, enforce your own rules. Personal attacks should never be tolerated. Just because someone is popular shouldn't mean they get away with acting like an ass and bullying opinions on the forum. That's not Khalsa. It's just immature behavior. I'm tired of being derailed by calling as full of feces, stupid, brain damaged from Guru's foot wash, mentally deranged and deluded cult member. This has got to stop. Didn't people's own mata Ji teach them any common decency or manners?

And I wouldn't be going off topic so much if I wasn't derailed with half-million challenges in desperate need to invalidate everything I say.

[Kaljug]

blah blah

Yep, play the martyr. After all, that's what you did on every other Sikh forum you were thrown out of for your inability to post a reply to a topic without propagating your own manmat as an alternative form of Sikhi. I'm sure it makes you feel very important.

K.

[singh2]

Bhai sahib the word Avtar is also used by bhai Gurdas ji in describing Guru Maharaj.Was Guru Sahib not sargun svarup of Wahiguru who MANIFESTED (not same as taking birth) in the world using his maya shakti? How can we possibly merge in Nirgun Swarup Wahiguru without the Sargun swarup SATGURU, the Shabad Guru?

Are we not capable of worshiping the unlimited Akal Purukh through the vismad of his creation his leela, seeing him permeating as the sole support of everything.

There is a difference in potential of avtars.They are not of same kind.

Gurbani states that Brahma , vishnu and shiva were not able to realize akal purakh.

So they were not akal purakh.

[Satgyan-pujari]

There is a difference in potential of avtars.They are not of same kind.

Gurbani states that Brahma , vishnu and shiva were not able to realize akal purakh.

So they were not akal purakh.

Can you point out the shabads where this is stated in gurbani?

I understand that different avatars have different tasks to fulfill,and they are all under Nirgun Wahiguru ji Hukam, showing humanity the appropriate message relevant for the yug and time.

Nobody said they were Akal Purakh,only representations/manifestations of the Nirgun as Sargun for a specific task,and definatley possess more potential than a ordinary jeev.

[singh2]

Pujari ji

God is capable of doing anything.There is no restriction to his acts.

What was being said by some that these devtas( Brahma , Vishnu, mahesh etc) are God.

That is not acknowledged in sikhism

Our gurus had told us to consider shabad as our Guru.

Please read about

ਤੇ ਹਮ ਤਮਕਿ ਤਨਕ ਮੋ ਖਾਪੇ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਠਉਰ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਥਾਪੇ ॥

ते हम तमकि तनक मो खापे ॥ तिन की ठउर देवता थापे ॥

I destroyed them in no time and created gods in their place.

ਤੇ ਭੀ ਬਲਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਉਰਝਾਏ ॥ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥੭॥

ते भी बलि पूजा उरझाए ॥ आपन ही परमेसुर कहाए ॥७॥

They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotednt.7.

ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਚੁੱਤ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥

महादेव अचु्त कहायो ॥ बिसन आप ही को ठहिरायो ॥

Mahadeo (Shiva) was called Achyuta (blotless), Vishnu considered himself the Supreme.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਆਪ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਖਾਨਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੮॥

ब्रहमा आप पारब्रहम बखाना ॥ प्रभ को प्रभू न किनहूं जाना ॥८॥

Brahma called himself Para Brahman, none could comprehend the Lord.8.

ਤਬ ਸਾਖੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਸਟ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਦੇਬੇ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥

तब साखी प्रभ असट बनाए ॥ साख नमित देबे ठहिराए ॥

Then I created eight Sakshis in order to give evidence of my Entity.

ਤੇ ਕਹੈ ਕਰੋ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ ਹਮ ਬਿਨ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੯॥

ते कहै करो हमारी पूजा ॥ हम बिन अवरु न ठाकुरु दूजा ॥९॥

But they considered themselves all in all and aasked the people to worship them.9.

ਪਰਮ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਜਿਨ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕਰਿ ਈਸਰ ਤਿਨ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨਾ ॥

परम तत को जिन न पछाना ॥ तिन करि ईसर तिन कहु माना ॥

Those who did not comprehend the Lord, they were considered as Ishvara.

ਕੇਤੇ ਸੂਰ ਚੰਦ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਅਗਨਿ ਹੋਤ੍ਰ ਕਈ ਪਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨੈ ॥੧੦॥

केते सूर चंद कहु मानै ॥ अगनि होत्र कई पवन प्रमानै ॥१०॥

Several people worshipped the sun and the moon and several others worshipped Fire and Ait.10.

ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਨ੍ਹਾਤ ਕਿਤੇ ਜਲ ਕਰਤ ਬਿਧਾਨਾ ॥

किनहूं प्रभु पाहन पहिचाना ॥ न्हात किते जल करत बिधाना ॥

Several them considered God as stone and several others bathed considering the Lordship of Water.

ਕੇਤਕ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਡਰਪਾਨਾ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਰਾਜ ਕੋ ਧਰਮ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੧੧॥

केतक करम करत डरपाना ॥ धरम राज को धरम पछाना ॥११॥

Considering Dharmaraja as the Supreme representative of Dharma, several bore fear of him in their actions. 11.

ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ ਤੇ ਹਿਆਂ ਆਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਹਵਾਏ ॥

जो प्रभ साख नमित ठहिराए ॥ ते हिआं आइ प्रभू कहवाए ॥

All those whom God established for the revelation of His Supremacy, they themselves were called Supreme.

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਬਿਸਰ ਜਾਤੀ ਭੀ ॥ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਪਰਤ ਸੋਭ ਭੀ ॥੧੨॥

ता की बात बिसर जाती भी ॥ अपनी अपनी परत सोभ भी ॥१२॥

They forgot the Lord in their race for supremacy. 12

ਜਬ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਨ ਤਿਨੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਇਨ ਮਨੁਛਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਨਾ ॥

जब प्रभ को न तिनै पहिचाना ॥ तब हरि इन मनुछन ठहिराना ॥

When they did not comprehend the Lord, then I established human beings in their place.

Bachitra natak

[Mithar]

Pujari ji

God is capable of doing anything.There is no restriction to his acts.

What was being said by some that these devtas( Brahma , Vishnu, mahesh etc) are God.

That is not acknowledged in sikhism

Our gurus had told us to consider shabad as our Guru.

Please read about

ਤੇ ਹਮ ਤਮਕਿ ਤਨਕ ਮੋ ਖਾਪੇ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਠਉਰ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਥਾਪੇ ॥

ते हम तमकि तनक मो खापे ॥ तिन की ठउर देवता थापे ॥

I destroyed them in no time and created gods in their place.

ਤੇ ਭੀ ਬਲਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਉਰਝਾਏ ॥ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥੭॥

ते भी बलि पूजा उरझाए ॥ आपन ही परमेसुर कहाए ॥७॥

They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotednt.7.

ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਚੁੱਤ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥

महादेव अचु्त कहायो ॥ बिसन आप ही को ठहिरायो ॥

Mahadeo (Shiva) was called Achyuta (blotless), Vishnu considered himself the Supreme.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਆਪ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਖਾਨਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੮॥

ब्रहमा आप पारब्रहम बखाना ॥ प्रभ को प्रभू न किनहूं जाना ॥८॥

Brahma called himself Para Brahman, none could comprehend the Lord.8.

ਤਬ ਸਾਖੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਸਟ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਦੇਬੇ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥

तब साखी प्रभ असट बनाए ॥ साख नमित देबे ठहिराए ॥

Then I created eight Sakshis in order to give evidence of my Entity.

ਤੇ ਕਹੈ ਕਰੋ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ ਹਮ ਬਿਨ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੯॥

ते कहै करो हमारी पूजा ॥ हम बिन अवरु न ठाकुरु दूजा ॥९॥

But they considered themselves all in all and aasked the people to worship them.9.

ਪਰਮ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਜਿਨ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕਰਿ ਈਸਰ ਤਿਨ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨਾ ॥

परम तत को जिन न पछाना ॥ तिन करि ईसर तिन कहु माना ॥

Those who did not comprehend the Lord, they were considered as Ishvara.

ਕੇਤੇ ਸੂਰ ਚੰਦ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਅਗਨਿ ਹੋਤ੍ਰ ਕਈ ਪਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨੈ ॥੧੦॥

केते सूर चंद कहु मानै ॥ अगनि होत्र कई पवन प्रमानै ॥१०॥

Several people worshipped the sun and the moon and several others worshipped Fire and Ait.10.

ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਨ੍ਹਾਤ ਕਿਤੇ ਜਲ ਕਰਤ ਬਿਧਾਨਾ ॥

किनहूं प्रभु पाहन पहिचाना ॥ न्हात किते जल करत बिधाना ॥

Several them considered God as stone and several others bathed considering the Lordship of Water.

ਕੇਤਕ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਡਰਪਾਨਾ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਰਾਜ ਕੋ ਧਰਮ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੧੧॥

केतक करम करत डरपाना ॥ धरम राज को धरम पछाना ॥११॥

Considering Dharmaraja as the Supreme representative of Dharma, several bore fear of him in their actions. 11.

ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ ਤੇ ਹਿਆਂ ਆਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਹਵਾਏ ॥

जो प्रभ साख नमित ठहिराए ॥ ते हिआं आइ प्रभू कहवाए ॥

All those whom God established for the revelation of His Supremacy, they themselves were called Supreme.

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਬਿਸਰ ਜਾਤੀ ਭੀ ॥ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਪਰਤ ਸੋਭ ਭੀ ॥੧੨॥

ता की बात बिसर जाती भी ॥ अपनी अपनी परत सोभ भी ॥१२॥

They forgot the Lord in their race for supremacy. 12

ਜਬ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਨ ਤਿਨੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਇਨ ਮਨੁਛਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਨਾ ॥

जब प्रभ को न तिनै पहिचाना ॥ तब हरि इन मनुछन ठहिराना ॥

When they did not comprehend the Lord, then I established human beings in their place.

Bachitra natak

This and many Tukhs like this should be able to close the case. Unfortunately, some here will try to reinterpret and twist the meanings of these simple Tukhs to mean something completely different.

[Satgyan-pujari]

Pujari ji

God is capable of doing anything.There is no restriction to his acts.

What was being said by some that these devtas( Brahma , Vishnu, mahesh etc) are God.

That is not acknowledged in sikhism

Our gurus had told us to consider shabad as our Guru.

Please read about

ਤੇ ਹਮ ਤਮਕਿ ਤਨਕ ਮੋ ਖਾਪੇ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਠਉਰ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਥਾਪੇ ॥

ते हम तमकि तनक मो खापे ॥ तिन की ठउर देवता थापे ॥

I destroyed them in no time and created gods in their place.

ਤੇ ਭੀ ਬਲਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਉਰਝਾਏ ॥ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥੭॥

ते भी बलि पूजा उरझाए ॥ आपन ही परमेसुर कहाए ॥७॥

They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotednt.7.

ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਚੁੱਤ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥

महादेव अचु्त कहायो ॥ बिसन आप ही को ठहिरायो ॥

Mahadeo (Shiva) was called Achyuta (blotless), Vishnu considered himself the Supreme.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਆਪ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਖਾਨਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੮॥

ब्रहमा आप पारब्रहम बखाना ॥ प्रभ को प्रभू न किनहूं जाना ॥८॥

Brahma called himself Para Brahman, none could comprehend the Lord.8.

ਤਬ ਸਾਖੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਸਟ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਦੇਬੇ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥

तब साखी प्रभ असट बनाए ॥ साख नमित देबे ठहिराए ॥

Then I created eight Sakshis in order to give evidence of my Entity.

ਤੇ ਕਹੈ ਕਰੋ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ ਹਮ ਬਿਨ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੯॥

ते कहै करो हमारी पूजा ॥ हम बिन अवरु न ठाकुरु दूजा ॥९॥

But they considered themselves all in all and aasked the people to worship them.9.

ਪਰਮ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਜਿਨ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕਰਿ ਈਸਰ ਤਿਨ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨਾ ॥

परम तत को जिन न पछाना ॥ तिन करि ईसर तिन कहु माना ॥

Those who did not comprehend the Lord, they were considered as Ishvara.

ਕੇਤੇ ਸੂਰ ਚੰਦ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਅਗਨਿ ਹੋਤ੍ਰ ਕਈ ਪਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨੈ ॥੧੦॥

केते सूर चंद कहु मानै ॥ अगनि होत्र कई पवन प्रमानै ॥१०॥

Several people worshipped the sun and the moon and several others worshipped Fire and Ait.10.

ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਨ੍ਹਾਤ ਕਿਤੇ ਜਲ ਕਰਤ ਬਿਧਾਨਾ ॥

किनहूं प्रभु पाहन पहिचाना ॥ न्हात किते जल करत बिधाना ॥

Several them considered God as stone and several others bathed considering the Lordship of Water.

ਕੇਤਕ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਡਰਪਾਨਾ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਰਾਜ ਕੋ ਧਰਮ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੧੧॥

केतक करम करत डरपाना ॥ धरम राज को धरम पछाना ॥११॥

Considering Dharmaraja as the Supreme representative of Dharma, several bore fear of him in their actions. 11.

ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ ਤੇ ਹਿਆਂ ਆਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਹਵਾਏ ॥

जो प्रभ साख नमित ठहिराए ॥ ते हिआं आइ प्रभू कहवाए ॥

All those whom God established for the revelation of His Supremacy, they themselves were called Supreme.

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਬਿਸਰ ਜਾਤੀ ਭੀ ॥ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਪਰਤ ਸੋਭ ਭੀ ॥੧੨॥

ता की बात बिसर जाती भी ॥ अपनी अपनी परत सोभ भी ॥१२॥

They forgot the Lord in their race for supremacy. 12

ਜਬ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਨ ਤਿਨੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਇਨ ਮਨੁਛਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਨਾ ॥

जब प्रभ को न तिनै पहिचाना ॥ तब हरि इन मनुछन ठहिराना ॥

When they did not comprehend the Lord, then I established human beings in their place.

Bachitra natak

Thank you for yor reply Singh2ji, as i said i am NOT saying they are Akal Purakh,they are his manifestation and we should remember that ONLY He is the Nirgun jyot that animates them,and they served the purpose which is Gods Hukam.

In the golden age of sat yuga You wre pleased to decieve Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

In the silver age of treta yuga, You were called Raam of raghu dynasty.

In the brass age dwapur yuga,You were Krishna,You killed Mur the Demon and saved Kans.

You blessed Ugraisan with a kingdom,and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

In the iron age,the dark age of kal yuga,You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak,Guru Angad and Guru Amardas.

The soverign rule of the great Guru is unchanging and permanent,according to the command of the primal Lord

AGGS ang 1390 Bhatt Bani

Edited February 14, 2010 by Satgyan-pujari