What Is Future Of Sikh Community ?

[SikhUnity]

RSS, Sangh Pavivar is infiltrating into Gurudwaras and attacking sikh community silently. We need to make Sikh organizations aware of these activities and be vigilent of their activites and strongly oppose these efforts.

http://www.sikhlionz.com/hinduizationofsikhi.htm

The RSS is behind all this mess and rift over the Dasam Granth, Nanakshahi calender, Dera Sacha Sauda, killing of Bhai Ravidas's preacher in Europe. They are the one who are bent over to split Sikh community (which is already split) and merge Sikhism into Hinduism while we are busy arguing and being divided within Sikh community. ALL SIKHS (all castes, all Sants from all over the world, Amritdharis, Sahejdharis, everyone) need to wake up and get united against these external forces. WE NEED A REAL SIKH LEADER SOON and this is not Badal for sure !! SGPC and Akalis are already sold out to RSS. Badal is giving Saropa to RSS leaders in Harmandar Sahib and we are sitting around the world voiceless and helpless. What happened to us ? Are we still in after shock of Bluestar and 1984 ??? If yes, then Indian Govt. has succeeded in turning lions in sheeps !!

We need to start discussing these issues in Gurudwaras and Sikh social gathering (instead of Butter chicken and drinking). We need to start Sikh Political groups in each Gurudwara to spell off RSS. RSS is heaviest in Amritsar and they are in every state of USA. If we don't wake up, this is the beginning of the END to the Sikh control on their own Gurudwaras.

[HarjasDevi]

RSS, Sangh Pavivar is infiltrating into Gurudwaras and attacking sikh community silently. We need to make Sikh organizations aware of these activities and be vigilent of their activites and strongly oppose these efforts.

http://www.sikhlionz...tionofsikhi.htm

The RSS is behind all this mess and rift over the Dasam Granth, Nanakshahi calender, Dera Sacha Sauda, killing of Bhai Ravidas's preacher in Europe. They are the one who are bent over to split Sikh community (which is already split) and merge Sikhism into Hinduism while we are busy arguing and being divided within Sikh community. ALL SIKHS (all castes, all Sants from all over the world, Amritdharis, Sahejdharis, everyone) need to wake up and get united against these external forces. WE NEED A REAL SIKH LEADER SOON and this is not Badal for sure !! SGPC and Akalis are already sold out to RSS. Badal is giving Saropa to RSS leaders in Harmandar Sahib and we are sitting around the world voiceless and helpless. What happened to us ? Are we still in after shock of Bluestar and 1984 ??? If yes, then Indian Govt. has succeeded in turning lions in sheeps !!

We need to start discussing these issues in Gurudwaras and Sikh social gathering (instead of Butter chicken and drinking). We need to start Sikh Political groups in each Gurudwara to spell off RSS. RSS is heaviest in Amritsar and they are in every state of USA. If we don't wake up, this is the beginning of the END to the Sikh control on their own Gurudwaras.

I was drinking chai and you made me laugh and spill. RSS can't even win an election. How can they be responsible for every bad thing that happens in the Panth? Petty politics of Punjab isn't even interesting. I think WHOEVER can bring economic growth and industry while curbing farmer suicides, bankruptcies, drug and HIV scourge will be a welcome leader REGARDLESS his political party or religion.

And do you think in your wildest imagination that all these unrul Khalistani guys are going to meekly and silently "merge into Hinduism?" Haha, they can't even accept NAAMS of God in Gurbani that say Jaganatha, Gopala, Govinda as being anything but kritam. You have nothing to worry about as far as disunity is concerned, it will last at least another hundred years. But it's a shame that wisely mature spiritual people can't unite on the unity of authentically spiritual principles and teachings and instead define the world in terms of politics and self-interest.

Sikh political groups, in my opinion are the death of authentic Gursikhi. Be politically active, sure. But to define religion along corruptible political agendas is a shame. To endlessly separate human beings on the basis of religious and political affiliation is just another form of caste discrimination. In fact, that together with wealth or absence of wealth IS the modern caste system. And people divided are nothing but a spiritual disharmony.

Just love people. Love them as they are and where they are at and try to give them a blessing to encourage them to be and do better.

[Xylitol]

You worry too much Singh. RSS is more of a force in India then in west. your post is more applicaable to India than thewest. In the west, the biggest problem, besides apostasy, is Bhasauria panth-dokhi types going on about Dasam Bani etc. These are the ones who are trying to split the panth. Sikhs in the West are either aware enough that any Hinduisation won't ever happen, or they (some) are in fact paranoid of it to the point where they condemn everything they don't understand as bhraminvaad. These are the big problems the Sikhs in the west face, along with Gurdwara committees continually splitting up so that they can each enjoy their own chaudary. Add to that legislated discrimination, which exists to a larger degree in the EU than in other areas.

Examine our history. When we were united, we always eventually triumphed over external forces. It is the internal splits we need to worry about.

[Ghostface Killah]

Disunity will last another 100 years? where did you get that from?

Like xylitol said biggest problem is "sikhs" themshelves and corrupt gurdwareh who are driving people away, in the west & the lack of reaching out to western youths in a language they can understand.

[HarjasDevi]

Disunity will last another 100 years? where did you get that from?

Just an off-hand remark because I don't see any real unity efforts happening any time soon, especially not when political ideologies such as expressed in the original post reflect such polarization and projected blame. What is really needed is honest self-appraisal and then calm, reasoned, wise parchaar which is secure in own Sikhi and able to embrace and bring closer to the Divine all the other more individualistic elements which may not conform with the mainstream. You know, bringing differences closer together isn't the same thing as losing your individuality.

For goodness sakes, almost every Hindu person is lumped together with RSS. But how can anyone expect a Hindu to have ANY other understanding of Sikhi than a Hindu one? This paranoia is just about LOL. But Hindu's having a Hindu opinion has no power to change anyone elses. The fact is there IS overlap. And if we REALLY BELIEVE that Gurbani is a boat of mukti for the Kalyug, then how can people think it only belongs to Sikhs?

It's a HUGE UNWELCOME for people who have sanatan beliefs, accusing them of being extremists out to destroy Sikhi. In fact, it's sick thinking. There's something wrong with it. We have to heal some of these projected hates and blames of the "other person" before Sikhi is ever going to be any kind of "boat of mukti" for the whole world to take refuge in. People are suffering, they have diseases, injuries, their loved ones are sick, they are lost and hurting, and if they turn towards the beautiful holy medicine of Gurbani.... they are going to be met with this, stupid political hate parchaar which blames them and makes them feel unwelcome. It is a paap to make spiritual teachings into a political football.

[Guest]

All the samparda's within sikhism- taksal, nirmale, sevapanthis, nihangs consider sikhi to be anadi or sanatan(same meaning). It just you obviously have different definition and understanding of sanatan sikhism then sikh mahapursh belonging to above samparda's.

[dalsingh101]

Disunity will last another 100 years? where did you get that from?

Like xylitol said biggest problem is "sikhs" themshelves and corrupt gurdwareh who are driving people away, in the west & the lack of reaching out to western youths in a language they can understand.

This is how it looks to me. Right now we have numerous subgroups in the panth. This is not only in terms of variations in belief but geography also (i.e. Afghanistani Sikhs and say Canadian Sikhs).

Eventually someone is going to have to 'thread' all these groups together with some common ground and leadership. It could happen in the next 30/40 years and I believe that online technology may play a big part in that due to its usefulness in mass communication.

Talking from a UK perspective, I think some of the smaller Gurdwaras will shut down over the next few decades (due to a decrease in use) and the more larger and more frequented Gurdwaras will become the hubs of the community. We will lose a significant number to other faiths but probably more to no faith (agnosticism). Inter-cultural/religious marriages will become more common.

That issue with the language used in Gurdwaras is nothing new. I've heard people saying the same thing for 20 odd years. There is generally no understanding of the importance of reaching out to youth by Gurdwara leaders today, only when those who have been fully brought up here take charge (many years from now), will we have people who have some understanding of the mindset of youth raised in the west may and this may lead to some change. But I wouldn't be surprised if many of the current incumbents of Gurdwara management, try to keep their 'cash cow' within their family hand in true masand style.

That all being said we should remember that:

kwaar hoi subh milangaye

Edited February 12, 2010 by dalsingh101

[Xylitol]

Already in Canada we have youth Gurdwara committees taking over and reaching out to youth as well as the mainstream Canadian community. We also have prachar academies that preach in the English language. What we need is not just political connections and unity, but also well educated pracharaks teaching in English.

The late Bhai Parminder Singh ji, who started the Guru Nanak Academy in BC is the perfect example of a properly educated pracharak. Many times he would preach in mixed Punjabi and English and many of the older generation also listened to his talks. His knowledge was impressive, he didn't need to prepare his kathas beforehand or have any pothian in front of him. There were rumours that he had become a sant, and from feeling the partaap near him I don't think these were false.

http://www.gurunanakacademy.com/audio/index.php?q=f&f=%2FEnglish+Katha%2FBhai+Parminder+Singh+Ji

So another thing we need is to simply do more abhyaas of Gurbani. Even if a person lacks great knowledge, for others to see the laal chera of an abhyaasi is very heavy prachaar.

[Xylitol]

Katha on internal enemies of Sikh panth:

part 1: http://www.g5sikhmedia.co.uk/images/audios/2009/12/santtakhurbarsi_09_22nd/22nd%20Dec%202009%20Giani%20Takhur%20Singh%20Katha.mp3

part 2: http://www.g5sikhmedia.co.uk/images/audios/2009/12/santtakhurbarsi_09_24th/24th%20Dec%202009%20Giani%20Thakur%20Singh%20Part.mp3

[dalsingh101]

Already in Canada we have youth Gurdwara committees taking over and reaching out to youth as well as the mainstream Canadian community. We also have prachar academies that preach in the English language.

I know the grass always seems greener etc. But it does seem that overall the Sikh community is in a better state in Canada than in the UK. Although some things like the Sikh on Sikh murders of the Vancouver region are serious problems.

I think one of the key factors that gives the community a better environment in Canada is the differences in government policies of assimilation.

[HarjasDevi]

All the samparda's within sikhism- taksal, nirmale, sevapanthis, nihangs consider sikhi to be anadi or sanatan(same meaning). It just you obviously have different definition and understanding of sanatan sikhism then sikh mahapursh belonging to above samparda's.

Udasis and Nirmalay and Sevapanthis, they believe or don't believe that the Divine Supreme manifests in form of avtaray and devatay? Yes or no?

Then, if you admit they do, how is my definition of sanatan different when I believe that the nirgun manifests in the sargun as well? And what is huge point of contention between the Tat Khalsa view and the sanatani view is that GOD is unborn and never incarnates, Sikhi rejects devatay and avtaray as per SGPC SRM, and Devi is just aother created form with no power.

Because from what I understand all these sampraday blend in with overlap with traditional Hindu Mat and no separation. Whereas the more modern sampraday make this huge bugaboo about separation. They are also reading Vedas and Puranas and understanding the Vedantic definitions of terms and not the radical Tat Khalsa ones where Jog literally doesn't even mean Jog.

So what is this profound difference in definition of the term sanatan that I have?

This book is an effort to bring out the history of Damdami Taksaal. The book says that Guru Amardas Ji appointed 22 ‘Manjis’ and 72 ‘Peerhaas’ to preach the Gurbani. Guru Arjan Dev Ji edited ‘Beerh Sahib’ (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji). Baba Sri Chand started preaching the Gurmat. After Sri Chand, Baba Gurditta Ji was famous ‘Mahatma’ of Udasi sect. There were four disciples of Baba Gurditta Ji. Their names were ‘Baalu Hasna’, ‘Phoole Shah’, ‘Goyenda’ and ‘Almast’. They established four ‘Dhooney’ of Udasis. The four ‘Dhooney’ and six ‘Bakhsishaan’ are called ‘Das Naam Udasi’. All the Udasis belonging to these ‘Dhooney’ and ‘Bakhshishaan’ established hundred of ‘Deras’, ‘Akhaarhe’ and centers. During the hard days of Mughal rule, Udasis, Nirmalas and Seva Panthis continued to preach Sikhi. The book tells that many chiefs of Sikh ‘Misals’ adopted Sikhi under influence of Udasi, Nirmalas and Sevapanthis.

During the ‘Singh Sabha Movement’, Udasis and Nirmalas established idols of Sri Chand and removed Sri Guru Granth Sahib, or they installed other books of Hindu religious books along with Guru Granth Sahib, so that their ‘deras’ could not be taken over under new Gurdwara Act. The book says that Udasis used not to cut their hair/beard, but frightened by Singh Sabha movement, now ‘Jataa-dhari’, ‘Mundit’, ‘Bhasmadhari’, ‘Nange’ and those, who wear russet clothes, can be seen. Itihaas Damdami Taksaal (Sankhep)

Really, this entire conflict is not about any RSS imposition onto Sikhi but analysis of what really constituted sanatan Sikhi and how that differs from anti-sanatanism of today. The above passage doesn't even reflect how Udasi Mahants (and some Nirmalay) stored idols removed from Gurdwaray including Harimandi Sahib and put into safekeeping in 1908 when Tat Khalsas removed them. So, how is keeping of murthis so utterly different a description of the kind of definition I have of sanatan? Are the animal sacrifices in Chandi puja conduicted by Maharaja Ranjit Singh a different kind of sanatan?

It's a different kind of sanatan now? Sanatan means the eternal yes, but also referring to practices and beliefs which in fact do overlap with Hindu Mat.

[Matheen]

Harjas Kaur, I think a lot of your misunderstanding stems from relying on translations. If you ever visit India, then seek out Mahapursh from the Sampardas that N30 mentioned and speak to them. Some of them sometimes visit Europe and North America as well. There is huge amount of Katha by traditional sampardas available on the internet too.

Murtis were first introduced to Harmandir Sahib after the annexation of Punjab by the British. It was under control of Hindu mahants, not Udasi or Nirmala Sikhs. There are quite a few contemporary paintings of Harmandir Sahib during the Sikh Raj and no murtis are present. Have you read what Guru Gobind Singh Ji says about murtis and people who worship them?

It is not the SGPC maryada that rejects worship of avtars and devtey, it is Gurbani. I don't understand why you keep going round in circles.

If you wrote shorter posts, you would have more time to actually study the language of Gurbani and see first hand what Guru Ji teaches.

[HarjasDevi]

If you ever visit India, then seek out Mahapursh from the Sampardas that N30 mentioned and speak to them.

Actually I have spoken to Nirmalas and Udasis and that's why I don't believe you.

Murtis were first introduced to Harmandir Sahib after the annexation of Punjab by the British. It was under control of Hindu mahants, not Udasi or Nirmala Sikhs. There are quite a few contemporary paintings of Harmandir Sahib during the Sikh Raj and no murtis are present

I don't believe you. For one thing even the murals which still exist contain Hindu Mat themes and devatay.

Have you read what Guru Gobind Singh Ji says about murtis and people who worship them?

I don't accept that Shri Dasam Granth translation hasn't been tampered with. But I am open to analysis and study of it, which requires knowledge of Sanskrit and Braj. The translation everybody is reading from is the Punjabi translation by the SGPC, and yes, there are concerns regarding certain passages. Perhaps they ARE correct. I would be happy if you could prove it to me. But because the controversy is real and does exist, I'm afraid I just don't believe your interpretation of things. For one thing, you would have to acknowledge, if your view is correct, that EVERYTHING has been tampered with. Not only murthis in Harimandir Sahib, but Prem Sumarag discussing Gul-shastars with Chandi murthi, Suraj Prakash discussing how Sikhs did Chandi puja during time of Guru Gobind Singh, you would have to explain Gur Bilas.

Now, if you allege Shri Dasam Granth is the basis for condemnation of avtaray and devatay, we can have analysis and debate on it as much as you want. PROVE IT. Because when I look at it, I see only interpretation which isn't even in context of the whole pauri. Every purataan Granth with sanatan themes (which overlap Hindu Mat) has to be called "tampered with." Then I ask you, what evidence exists which proves your words that Harimandir during time of British did NOT have murthis? Where is the citation? Because we KNOW Maharaja Ranjit Singh sponsored Hindu mandirs in his kingdom and participated in Devi pujas.

It is not the SGPC maryada that rejects worship of avtars and devtey, it is Gurbani.

SGPC SRM is based on Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Show me from Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where avtaray and devatay are rejected. Because SGPC SRM doesn't say WORSHIP is rejected. It says AVATARAY AND DEVATAY are rejected. Explain? Since SGPC seems to believe they are metaphorical.

I don't understand why you keep going round in circles.

Because I don't agree your opinion. So I still believe differently.

Ram Rai Mahant Lineage

They may be opposed now but they were mahants in Harimandir Sahib and they were not Hindus but schismatic sect of Sikhs.

Another notable Udasi sadhu was Mahant Kirpal who took part in the battle of Bhangani (1689) under Guru Gobind Singh. After the abolition of the order of the Masands by Guru Gobind Singh, the preaching of Guru Nanak`s word fell to the Udasis who also gradually took control of the Sikh places of worship. (Many Sikhs were Martyred in the early part of the 20th century when Sikh Sangats undertook regaining control of their Gurdwaras from men who had begun to consider the Gurdwaras and their attached lands as their personal property.)

The Udasin worship panchayatana, a combination of five deities, namely Shiva, Vishnu, the Sun, goddess Durga, and Ganesh. Moreover they worship their founder-Guru Shrichandra. Their philosophy is basically the monistic Vedanta as set forth by Shankara, and in other respects as well they closely resemble the Shaiva sannyasis. Udasi

In 1768 Bk/AD 1711 an Udasi sadhu, SANT Gopal Das, popularly known as Goddar Faquir, was appointed GRANTHI at the Harimandar at AMRITSAR by Bhai Mani Singh, sent to Amritsar as custodian of the shrine by Mata Sundari. Gopal Das was later replaced by another Udasi, Bhai Chahchal Singh, a pious and devoted Sikh. Udasis recruit their followers from all castes and professions.

During eighteenth century, the Udasis (not appearing as Khalsa Singhs) escaped the persecution of the Mughal rulers. Since they considered themselves as Sikhs, this naturally led them to look after the Sikh shrines in the absence of Khalsa Singhs and the Akalis/Nihangs (see separate entries). Here they performed a key role in keeping Sikh teaching alive. Anand Ghan, an Udasi scholar of the late 18th and early 19th centuries, wrote commentaries on the Adi Granth from a largely Hindu-Vedantic perspective.

The Mahants (those in charge of the Gurdwaras) of the nineteenth and early twentieth century, frequently claimed an Udasi descent, though their life style had considerably changed. When the Khalsa Singhs were involved in war against the Mughals, it was the Udasis that kept the Guru’s tradition alive by becoming custodians of the Gurdwaras. Udasi

Nirmala teachings incorporated Sikh teachings and doctrines within a largely Hindu/Vedantic framework. Nirmala Study any kind of spiritual knowledge book like Vedas, Puranas, katebs. Like the Udasis they were celibates, and did not believe in holding private funds. The Nirmalas, with the Udasis, form part of the Sanatan Sikh world-view and share many of its beliefs; along with belief in yogic/meditative and scriptural recitation and study. In addition to the Adi Granth, they rely on the Vedas, Shastras, Puranas and Epic literature. It is not surprising therefore that their Sanatan position does pitch them against the Tat Khalsa and fundamental Gurmat teachings on certain beliefs...

Giānī Giān Siṅgh (1822-1921) is known for his contribution to Sikh history. His Panth Prakāsh in verse appeared in 1880 and Twārīkh Gurū Khālsā in prose in 1891. However, the Nirmalās also contributed to heavy Brāhmanical influenced interpretations of Sikh scriptures and Sikh history. They also introduced Brāhman rituals into the Sikh Gurdwārās during the time the Khālsā were considered fugitives by the state and lived in the jungles up until the Singh Sabhā movement.

Today they form a well respected and highly disciplined organisation with many establishments. As a legitimate part of Sikh History they are accepted as a part of the Sikh Panth, more so than the Udasis. However, any individual or group that does not believe in Khaṇḍe di Pahul, maintaining Kesh, wearing the 5 Kakkaars blessed by Guru Gobind Singh Ji, and believe solely in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and no other scriptures or devi devte, cannot be considered as Sikhs. Nirmala

With respect, the above article is clearly written from a Tat Khalsa bias. Nonetheless, the role of Nirmalay along with Udasay in preserving Sikh heritage with a sanatan world-view blending Sikh and Hindu religious practices is well established. I can't imagine what you hope to prove by denying the obvious.

During the 18th century, Udasis, escaped persecution by the Mughal Empire, as they look different from Khalsa Sikh and Akalis, in whose absence they took care of Sikh places of worship and kept the teachings of Sikhism alive. This responsibility was with them for more than a century, and at one point in history (approximately 1849), there were more than 250 Udasi akharas, or centres, in India.

During the Gurdwara Reform Movement of the early 1920s, Udasis lost control of all the historical shrines. There are presently far fewer Udasis than there were prior to the Gurudwara Reform Movement.

Traditionally, there were four Udasi centres, akharas or dhuans, with each controlling a certain preaching area; namely, eastern India (main centre, Nanakmatta), western Panjab and Kashmir, Malwa (Punjab) and Doaba. There is an Udasi temple in Amritsar, near the Harimandir Sahib (Golden Temple). Udasi

....the lines between who is hindu and who is sikh were a lot more blurred during and immediately after the (sikh) gurus times on earth, than they are today.

Hindus from the Punjab who under the leadership of Guru Gobind Singh took up arms against the mughals, adorned the five kakkars of the guru, and took amrit would describe themselves as Khalsa - (PURE), rather than sikh.

When the fighting was over they would go back to their day to day duties and carry on with their Hindu rituals and festivals such as Diwali, rakhri, lohri and vaisakhi.

...they saw no contradictions in doing so either.....therfore it would be of no surprise that the eldest son of a Hindu family would join the Khalsa army whilst at the same time retaining his Hindu identity /religion during these times.

inter marriage was not seen as an obstacle either and was infact encouraged along the same caste lines....

....it was only with the arrival of the British that words such as sikhi-ism and Hindu-ism were coined, largley to help the British differentiate between and understand the complex spirituality of the natives.....it was also during these times, towards the end of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's empire that the word sikh became more popular as a means to describe what was now begining to be seen as a more distinct religion, than the aforementioned khalsa which was more of an army/hieretichal description......

... therfore one should not be alarmed to note that the holiest shrine of the Khalsa panth (not religion) was named after a Hindu deity, and the practice of idol worship was implemeted by the largely hindu punjabi adherrents to the khalsa panth, soon after its construction...

it was only centuries later after the onset of the British paid historians such as Kahn Singh Nabha that distinctions were formed forged and two seperate belief systems were formed ...this eventually led to idols of the Hindu deities and Guru Harigovind being removed.....largely under the influence of Wilheim Leitner, Kahn Singh Nabha and Max Arthur Macauliffe.....

Navjot Singh Oberoi -

Kushwant Singh and Sumair Singh also wrote articles about how the murthis have been in Sikh places of worship since Guru Sahibaan times since Guru Sahibaan didn't believe imposing on anyone's practice of worship and the local population had these practices. So, you may have an opinion and you may be right. But evidence exists of another opinion which refutes you by well known scholars. I don't see anything backing your opinion which is the typical Tat Khalsa claim with any source material. Kindly post your rebuttal. I know you were having this debate in Sikh Sangat. I don't know why, even if you disagree that you outright deny the existance and legitimacy of the other opinion. To be honest, we weren't there and may never know. But the evidence seems weighted against the Tat Khalsa version of (sanitized of sanatan) Sikh history.

[laalsingh]

What happened to your RN job? You have time to write these mega posts and I am even afraid to look at size.

[HarjasDevi]

I had work injury and now I am at home taking care of my mamaji and driving internet people crazy, of course!

[laalsingh]

poor mamaji.

[Xylitol]

Harjas Kaur, once again, I recommend you speak to Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal. He's from purataan sampardai and one of the biggest vidvaans in the panth. You may find his feedback valuable.

[Matheen]

Harjas, you write that translations may have been tampered with. In that case why not read the original text, which is fairly easy to understand:

O fool! Fall at the feet of Lord-God, the Lord is not within the stone-idols.99" ; Page 137, Line 8, I do not worship stones, nor I have any liking for a particular guise.; Page 1290, Line 5, Why do you not pray to Him, who will be there in future and who is there in the present? You are worshipping the stones uselessly; what will you gain by that worship?; Page 1354, Line 11

You may even perform the austerities for an age, but these stones will not fulfil your wishes and please you; they will not raise their hands and grant you the boon;

Page 1355, Line 6

You had been wandering with bowed head in the temples of stones, hut you realized nothing; O foolish mind ! you were only entangled in your bad intellect abandoning that Effulgent Lord.26.

Page 2261, Line 11

The fool considers Him a stone, but the great fool does not know any secret;

Finally: I vanquished the vicious hill chiefs, they were idol-worshippers and I am idol-breaker.95.

many, many more similar teachings are given.

Which Nirmala Sikh Sants have you spoken to?

[HarjasDevi]

Which Nirmala Sikh Sants have you spoken to?

Mahant Ram Singh Ji.

[HarjasDevi]

Harjas, you write that translations may have been tampered with. In that case why not read the original text, which is fairly easy to understand:

The original text is in Sanskrit and Braj Bhasha. Do you read fluently Sanskrit and Braj Bhasha? The Punjabi translation is not original, the 32 original hand written birs are no longer extant, only 3 are left. And there are known discrepancies between the SGPC authorized version and the one put out by Gobind Sadhan. I asked if some Gurmukhi fluent Singh Scholars (From whatever sampraday, even firmly believing Singh Sabha) to kindly post comparisons between SGPC version and Govind Sadhan version to see where the controversial differences appear. Is that wrong to ask? It doesn't mean anybody will do it. And it of course, stil does not give us access to the original language, but it is still a little study which would be interesting for the forum.

I am interested to have proven that differences are not significantly involving anti-sanatan viewpoint of Singh Sabha. If I can see that then I will be somewhat more inclined to look at those tuuks with less suspicion.

Edited February 13, 2010 by HarjasKaur

[HarjasDevi]

The fool considers Him a stone, but the great fool does not know any secret;

Do you really believe that all Hindu's falsely worship only fake rocks and not real God? If so, then how are you different from intolerant Wahabist people who accuse Hindu's of demon worship against their (in hip pocket) One True God Allah?

Finally: I vanquished the vicious hill chiefs, they were idol-worshippers and I am idol-breaker.95.

Do you really believe same Guru Sahib who wrote in same Granth that His own Father Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji died to protect the tilak and janeo from oppression and turned around to break their idols like Aurangzeb himself? Or it meant something different, that they were betrayers and faithless to real God and going through motions of only hypocritical worship and that as Guru he was stopping their violent betrayal as well as their fake spirituality? But how does this apply to some kind of oppression against Hindu religious practices?

Are you thinking Khalsa is now idol breaker like fundamentalist Islamics? And what will you throw acid in peoples faces too if they violate your idea of sharia?

ਹਰੀਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਸੁਤ ਵਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤੇ ਤੇਗ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਭਏ ॥੧੨॥

darookrisan tin ke sut vae|| Tin te Teg Bahaadar bhae||12||

Har Krishan (the next Guru) was his son; after him, Tegh Bahadur became the Guru.12.

ਤਿਲਕ ਜੰਵੂ ਰਾਖਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥ ਕੀਨੋ ਬਡੋ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਕਾ ॥

Tilak janjhoo raakhaa Prabh taa kaa|| Koono bado kaloo maih saakaa||

He protected the forehead mark and sacred thread which marked a great event in the Iron age.

ਸਾਧਨ ਹੇਤਿ ਇਤੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਰੀ ॥ ਸੀਸੁ ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸੀ ਨ ਉਚਰੀ ॥੧੩॥

Saadhan het(i) itoo jin(i) daroo|| Soos(u) dooaa par soo na ucdaroo||13||

For the sake of saints, he laid down his head without even a sign.13.

ਧਰਮ ਹੇਤਿ ਸਾਕਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਸੀਸੁ ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸਿਰਰੁ ਨ ਦੀਆ ॥

Dharam het(i) saakaa jin kooaa|| Soos(u) dooaa par sirar(u) na dooaa||

For the sake of Dharma, he sacrificed himself. He laid down his head but not his creed.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 131

Edited February 13, 2010 by HarjasKaur

[Kaljug]

Do you really believe that all Hindu's falsely worship only fake rocks and not real God? If so, then how are you different from Or it meant something different, that they were betrayers and faithless to real God and going through motions of only hypocritical worship and that as Guru he was stopping their violent betrayal as well as their fake spirituality? But how does this apply to some kind of oppression against Hindu religious practices?

Are you thinking Khalsa is now idol breaker like fundamentalist Islamics? And what will you throw acid in peoples faces too if they violate your idea of sharia?

After all your complaining about Singh Sabha incorrectly interpreting Gurbani tuks, you turn around and say "Oh Guru Ji didn't mean what he said. He must have meant something else."

Your hypocrisy is incredible (and quite amusing to see).

K.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Kaljug

[HarjasDevi]

Finally: I vanquished the vicious hill chiefs, they were idol-worshippers and I am idol-breaker.95.

Shri Dasam Granth has been a focal point of controversy for 100 years. It is not even possible for Sikhs to have been attacking Hindu murthis like Aurangzeb and then sacrificing own lives to defend religious freedom. The TRANSLATION sounds out of place and I question the TRANSLATION AND INTERPRETATION, not the bani.

Your hypocrisy is incredible (and quite amusing to see).

Don't you have better things to discuss than trying to flame and discredit my every single post? Can you resolve my doubts and prove to me that the original Braj translation is an exact match with the current SGPC Punjabi translation and post relelvant tuuks here with reference citations we can all reliably cross confirm?

If you cannot, then you cannot convince me the bani is exactly accurate. It seems oddly out of place with a religion that fought Islamic oppression which did in fact bring breaking of murthis and desecrating of mandirs. Excuse me for doubting the Singh Sabha translation, it's not as if Panth Prakash was free from anti-sanatan bias to reassure people how trustworthy are Singh Sabha translations.

Edited February 14, 2010 by HarjasKaur

[Kaljug]

Shri Dasam Granth has been a focal point of controversy for 100 years. It is not even possible for Sikhs to have been attacking Hindu murthis like Aurangzeb and then sacrificing own lives to defend religious freedom. The TRANSLATION sounds out of place and I question the TRANSLATION AND INTERPRETATION, not the bani.

Don't you have better things to discuss than trying to flame and discredit my every single post? Can you resolve my doubts and prove to me that the original Braj translation is an exact match with the current SGPC Punjabi translation and post relelvant tuuks here with reference citations we can all reliably cross confirm?

If you cannot, then you cannot convince me the bani is exactly accurate. It seems oddly out of place with a religion that fought Islamic oppression which did in fact bring breakg of murthis and desecrating of mandirs. Excuse me for doubting the Singh Sabha translation, it's not as if Panth Prakash was free from anti-sanatan bias to reassure people how trustworthy are Singh Sabha translations.

Since you are the fool who is questioning the translation because they do no accord with your own manmat, the onus is on you to provide an alternative. Or to learn Gurmukhi and a bit of Farsi and resolve your own doubts.

However, since I am feeling generous, I will give you a clue:

ਮਨਮ ਕੁਸ਼ਤਹਅਮ ਕੋਹਿਯਾਂ ਪੁਰਫਿਤਨ ॥ ਕਿ ਆਂ ਬੁਤ ਪਰਸਤੰਦੁ ਮਨ ਬੁਤਸ਼ਿਕਨ ॥੯੫॥

I vanquished the vicious hill chiefs, they were idol-worshippers and I am idol-breaker.95.

The word used for idol is ਬੁਤ. Consult a dictionary. ਬੁਤ with an adhak in Punjabi is also an idol.

And it is Persian not Braj.

Also, since you rush to the Gobind Sadan pothia when every other translation and steek contradicts your beliefs, refer to page 2550 of the 2648 page Gobind Sadan Dasam Granth pothia. Baba Virsa's translation is identical. It reads "I am the destroyer of the idol-worshipping hill rajas because they worship idols and I am the breaker of idols". Feel free to get the translation checked by friends of yours who have actually bothered to learn Gurmukhi.

However, I fully expect you to cast doubt on the Gobind sadan pothia next, or better yet, to try to "interpret" Guru Ji's words to mean something completely different because they are not in accord with your own manmat.

K.

[singh2]

Harjas

Guru teg bahadar ji gave his life for religious freedom of weak people.Muslim were rulers and aurangzeb was converting Hindus by force.Guru sahib came to the rescue of oppressed.

so do not communalise his scarifice as it was for nobel mission.