Dasam Granth Bir Prior To 1740S?

[GuptSingh1699]

Yes I got Photos. I can upload if you want.

Anand Sahib isn't part of daily MINIMUM nitnem. Minimum nitnem was put before Raags by Guru Ji:

Japji

Sodar and Sopurkh

Sohila

Bhai Gurdas Dian Varan confirm to read Japji. Tankhahnama which is mukhvaak of Guru also confirm these above Banian.

[Matheen]

Yes I got Photos. I can upload if you want.

Please do so.

So do you follow Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Bhai Gurdas Ji's vaaran or Tankahnama?

[GuptSingh1699]

I follow only SGGs, and the nitnem i do from SGGS is backed up by Tankhahnama.

I will make a small poster of Lamba fraud and his lie with truth and put on my blog and link it tommorow.

[Matheen]

Tankahnama mentions Jaap Sahib as well.

[GillAUS]

GuptSingh, do you really have the audacity to claim that the majority of Sikh practices throughout Sikh history are wrong and that it is only now that Sikhs have supposedly woken up to it courtesy of the 'intellectual work' done by 'scholars' such as Ghagga etc.?

You are basically trying to imply that the Khalsa Panth is so foolish, that it has got things wrong for all this time.

Man, atleast if there were actual saint-scholars perpetuating your views one could perhaps see how they can be taken seriously. But it's the total opposite because the anti-DG brigade consists of people that are neither spiritual nor scholarly!

Edited March 8, 2010 by GillAUS

[singh2]

When Guru ji wrote there were copies made of his writings.That is how sikhs got their gutkas and pothis during Guru sahib's time.

Two beers of Dasam Granth were compiled during Guru Gobind singh's time namely Hazuri beer and Patna beer.Patna beer is still held in toshakhana of takaht Patna sahib.Hazuri beer is held by a private house.

I pity on ignorance displayed by the poster.Bhai mani singh had his beer that is still there at delhi.Baba Deep singh ji and Baba Binod singh ji had their own beers.

Sikhs have decided long time back about Dasam granth sahib.For them this is scripture of tenth master.Those who do not want to accept the decision of panth have their choice open.No one is forcing them to stay in panth.

I will request moderators not to allow any post that is critical of Dasam Granth.This is our sacred scritpure and we do not want anyone to criticize it. Sikh sangat has curbed this menace.

Edited March 8, 2010 by singh2

[singh2]

Missionaries, normal Sikhs are on other side. They too have differences in believes. Some of them believe Guru Sahibaan to be normal human beings (by which most Sikhs of this category disagree). Inder Singh Ghagga says 5th Guru fell unconcious on Tati Tavi, which I don't agree with. And many other issues.

Half read missionaries especially of Indr Ghagha type not only question Dasam Granth sahib.They also reject core concepts of sikhi.They say

1) Naam simran is useless excercise.

2) Waheguru as gurmantra is like tota rattan

3) There is no amrit vela concept

4) There is no such thing as soul

5) There is no reincarnation

6) there is no theory of karma

In essence they reject everything that sikhi stands for.They give heavy dose of atheism to an ignorant sikh.They are basically non believers in sikh identity.

Inder ghagah is an excommunicated person.

Edited March 8, 2010 by singh2

[singh2]

Anparh? I don't think all of your traditional sant babas were PhD's either. Or even primary pass, for that matter

Spiritual field and worldly education are two different realms.A spiritual person need not to be a highly educated person in the field of academic achievement.

Babas are far better than non believers as non believers spread misinformation about religion.

Edited March 8, 2010 by singh2

[singh2]

No. Guru's Kirpa on us Belgian Singhs. May Guru do Kirpa and get you guys (esp UK, Canada is doing good) out of HANERA (DARKNESS) of ignorance and Karam Kaands.

Tat Gurmat is alive in Belgium Sikhs. We will make sure all youth of Belgium stays true to Gurmat (meaning only Believing and reading Bani out of SGGS, no other Granths).

What makes you to say that you represent all belgian sikhs?

Who really cares what you read and what you do not want to read.If you violate sikh rehat marayda in Gurudwaras ( you can do anything at home)let us know and we will make sure you are shown your place by akal takhat

Edited March 8, 2010 by singh2

[singh2]

Dating is done easily. Inder Singh (lakhwinder singh of usa aka singh2 on this site) and Lamba have claimed that there is a 1698 Dasam Granth Bir, its Tatkara pic is on Patshahi10.org. It is fake, how do we know? I got pic of same bir where Zafarnama is written in same ink and handwriting, which shows that the Bir couldn't have been compiled anytime before 1706. This is dating and puts the fake date of samvat 1755 in Tatkara wrong and shows bir as fake.

Then there is this Bhai Mani Singh bir. Nobody knows where it was before 1818. So important bir, and yet we don't know in whose posession it was before 1818, strange?

It is Banno version of SGGS, showing scribe can't be Mani Singh. Biggest mistake in it is that a Dohra of Kavi Alam is attributed to Guru Gobind Singh.

This is how we can do 'parkh' of asli and naqli my brother.

Nothing is fake.Only you seem to be fake.Grow up first before calling bani of tenth master as fake.

Have you money to put bet and accompany me to India and i will show where these beers are?If you are a sikh accept this challenge and come out.

Edited March 8, 2010 by singh2

[singh2]

Tankahnama mentions Jaap Sahib as well.

I was reading all the posts today only.You took words out of my mouth.

He has not read chaupa singh's rehatnama yet.They only talk and have no base.

Most of the crap they read from a distortionist's site Jasbir Mann who has not seen any beer except the one in London library.When he is challenged for the debate he does not come forward.

This man has been debunked by those who have done extensive research in this field.

http://sridasamgrant...ih-c/4538989768

"Sri Dasam Granth and British Connection" - Fact or Fiction part 1

The sacred Banee of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib has guided the Khalsa for the last 300 years and is part and parcel of the Sikh psyche. Sri Dasam Granth of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib is the second most respected scripture of the Sikhs after Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. In addition of being the source of the Banees of Sikh Baptism (Amrit Sanchar), Daily Prayer (Nitnem) and Ardas, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is also the only source from where the terminologies, phrases and concepts of the Khalsa are derived. Some prominent examples are, 'Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh', 'Deg Teg Fateh', 'Bipran Ki Reet', 'Panth', 'Khalsa', 'Khanda', 'Kirpan', 'Sarab-loh', 'Dharam-Yudh' etc.

Recently there have been some theories that are being peddled that the Banee of the Tenth Guru is actually the creation of the British. This conspiracy theory was first propagated by one Dr Jasbir Singh Mann, a self acclaimed scholar of Sri Dasam Granth. Concocting this fake theory he claimed that Sri Dasam Granth was made by Mahants of Patna, Nirmalas and the British. This mixture of fiction and fantasy has been the most absurd theory on Sikh history.

With the aim of laying such absurd theories to rest, this document has been jointly prepared by www.sridasamgranth.com and www.patshahi10.org

....................................................................................................................................................................................................

1. Does any 18th century source state that there was a controversy about Sri Dasam Granth, (also known as Dasam Patshah ka Granth) or Book of the Tenth King?

There is no such source. There is absolutely no evidence from any source in the 18th century that claims there has been any controversy regarding the second canon of the Sikhs. There are various types of literature in Sikh History from the 18th century and within them are numerous accounts of how Sikhi came to fruition. These include Sri Gur Sobha Granth, Mehma Prakash, Gurbilas Patshahi Dasvin, Gurbilas Patshah Chevin, Bansavlinama, Guru Kian Saakhian. Then there are also the Rehatnamas which are related to the sayings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. There is not one line within these texts that claims that there was any controversy on Sri Dasam Granth, on the contrary the evidence for the creation, compilation, and status of Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s Banee is very much positive within them.

2. Is it true that the Dasam Granth appeared only in 19th century and no copy of Dasam Granth existed in Punjab or Delhi area in 18th century?

This is a highly surprising question. On the Visakhi of 1699 the compositions of the Sri Dasam Granth were recited together with those from Sri Guru Granth Sahib. This automatically places the Granth not only in Punjab but within the clear context of Anandpur Sahib. According to the dates within Sri Dasam Granth the compositions were written at Paonta and Anandpur. So firstly the creation of these compositions was in Punjab. Secondly the Anandpuri Hazuri Bir of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and the Patna Sahib Bir of 1698 were written in Punjab. So to some extent this question is incorrect as Sri Dasam Granth recensions already existed in the 17th century. The recension referred to as the Bhai Mani Singh Bir, was written by Bhai Mani Singh and he was based in Amritsar, in Punjab.

3. Is it correct that Dasam Granth was first introduced in literature by Malcolm in 1810 AD in his book titled “Sketch of the Sikhs”?

As per the answer above it is quite clear that nobody apart from Guru Gobind Singh introduced the Granth into Khalsa psyche in the 17th century. Sri Gur Sobha Granth written in 1711 by Guru Sahib’s poet Senapati was one of the first books to illuminate the writings in the Sri Dasam Granth. This book is written not only in the style and language of the Sri Dasam Granth but some verses are similar to the verses found in Sri Bachitra Natak, most notably the battles of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. It is clear that the court poets wanted to emulate the writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji as these were read in the Guru’s Durbars. John Malcolm wrote his book “Sketch of the Sikhs” over 100 years after Kavi Senapati, so he could not have introduced Sri Dasam Granth in literature. However Malcolm, a noted historian and statesman, who not only wrote extensively on the life in India, but also Iran, narrated what he saw in Amritsar, that the Akali Singhs revered two Granths, “Adi Granth” and “Dasven Patshah Ka Granth”. He wrote a detailed description of how Akali Singhs who were in-charge of Akal Takht pass Gurmatta in a congregation. There he saw both the Granths being read and revered.

4. Is there any evidence in history that reveals that British intentionally assisted in creation and promotion of “Dasmi Patshahi Ka Granth” or Dasam Granth to gain entry into Punjab and expand their Kingdom for Missionary and Political Purpose?

This is another false presumption propagated by Jasbir Singh Mann, a self-promoted expert on Sri Dasam Granth. As stated above the Granth was created by Guru Gobind Singh Ji for the Khalsa, this was the same Granth which gave the Khalsa a sense of Raj-niti. This was the same Granth which Maharaja Ranjit Singh, who created the first Sikh empire, read and whose armies carried with them together with the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. At the same time the Akalis, whose leader was Akali Phula Singh, were in-charge of the Akal Takht where both Granths were present. So the idea that the British would use the same Granth (that gave the Khalsa a sense of statehood) as a political tool makes no sense. If anything it was the British, under Dr Trump’s translations, that started creating confusion among the Sikhs by showing that the Sikh Granths were inferior to the Christian Bible. He also started labeling both Granths as something which contained Hindu idioms.

5. Is there any internal evidence showing the date when Dasam Granth was written?

This question is never asked about the creation of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, and as Sri Dasam Granth is the work of Guru Gobind Singh Ji this is also insulting. However there are no internal dates within Sri Guru Granth Sahib but there are some dates of creation of different compositions/works within Sri Dasam Granth. As Sri Dasam Granth is mainly placing Sikhism in a historical context these dates are important. Some of these dates are as follows:

ਸੱਤਰ੍ਹ ਸੈ ਪੈਤਾਲ ਮਿਹ ਸਾਵਨ ਸੁਦਿ ਥਿਤਿ ਦੀਪ ॥ ਨਗਰ ਪਾਂਵਟਾ ਸੁਭ ਕਰਨ ਜਮਨਾ ਬਹੈ ਸਮੀਪ ॥2490॥

(This work has been completed) in the year 1745 of the Vikrami era in the Sudi aspect of the moon in the month of Sawan, (July 1688 A.D.) in the town of Paonta at the auspicious hour, on banks of the flowing Yamuna.

(Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib in ‘Krishnavtar’)

ਸੰਬਤ ਸਤਰ੍ਹ ਸਹਸ ਭਿਣਜੈ ॥ ਅਰਧ ਸਹਸ ਫੁਨਿ ਤੀਨਿ ਕਿਹਜੈ ॥ ਭਾਦਰ੍ਵ ਸੁਦੀ ਅਸਟਮੀ ਰਿਵ ਵਾਰਾ ॥ ਤੀਰ

ਸਤੁਦਰ੍ਵ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸੁਧਾਰਾ ॥405॥

This (work) was completed on Sunday, the 18th day of month of Bhadon, in 1753 Bikrami Sammat (September 14, 1696 A.D.) on the banks of river Satluj.

(Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib in ‘Charitropakhyan’)

ਸੰਮਤ ਸੱਤਰ੍ਹ ਸਹਸ ਪਚਾਵਨ॥ ਹਾੜ ਵਦੀ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਸੁਖ ਦਾਵਨ ॥ ਤ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਕਰਿ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸੁਧਾਰਾ ॥ ਭੂਲ ਪਰੀ ਲਹੁ ਲੇਹੁ ਸੁਧਾਰਾ ॥860॥

This Granth has been completed (and improved) in Vadi first in the month of Haar in the year 1755 Bikrami (July 1698); if there has remained any error in it, then kindly correct it.

(Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib in ‘Ramavtaar’)

6. Is there any evidence that shows that British introduced Dasam Granth to strip the Sikhs of the spirit of independence and warfare?

This is another baseless claim that Jasbir Singh Mann started some years ago, without any hard historical evidence. If the British aimed at stripping the Sikhs of their military might they would have rather wanted the Sikhs not to read and revere Sri Dasam Granth which clearly contains the Bir Ras banee. Sri Dasam Granth also has details of the wars which Guru Gobind Singh Sahib fought, and elevated the weapons to the same level as the embodiment of Akal Purakh. Hence by giving a detailed description of weapons and their usage and warning the Khalsa of the moral challenges it might face, Sri Dasam Granth prepares the Khalsa for warfare, both physically and mentally.

7. Is it true that a Nirmala priest Atma Ram of Calcutta worked with Mahants at Patna to create, compile and promote this Gurmukhi Granth titled “Dasmi Patshahi Ka Granth” in Devnagri?

In the numerous texts of the 19th century there is no mention of any Atma Ram working with any Mahant at Patna. One important 19th century text is Sri Gur Panth Prakash, the main Sikh text of this period, which was written by Rattan Singh Bhangu a descendent of Bhai Mehtab Singh Bhangu (who beheaded Massa Ranghar). There is no mention of any Atma Ram in this important source of Sikh history. The Granthi of Patna Sahib, Baba Sumer Singh makes no mention of any Nirmala priest in his book.

After Sri Dasam Granth was written it was then also transcribed in different languages including Persian, Urdu and Devnagri. There is one copy of Sri Dasam Granth kept in the British Library that was written in Devnagri in the 19th century, over 100 years after the creation of Sri Dasam Granth by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. There is however a mention of an Atma Ram in Malcolm’s ‘Sketch of the Sikhs’, who helped in deciphering the meaning of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and other works for Malcolm (see p.9). And it appears that the same person helped Malcolm understand the Indian judicial system (see p.128). There is no mention of any Granth created by Atma Ram in this book and there is no mention of any Atma Ram working with Mahants from Patna

Click for the next set of questions

Edited March 8, 2010 by singh2

[singh2]

This is another good aerticle that says a lot of this phony scholar

Dasam Granth Controversy Promoted by Anti Sikh Scholars (OP-ED)

February 4, 2010 Source: sikhsangat.org

UK: Attempts made by pseudo-scholars of Sikhism to try and create controversies are a part and parcel of Sikhism these days. The in-depth knowledge needed to understand Sri Dasam Granth requires hard work. However, a new breed of pseudo scholars and Internet cut and paste merchants are the standard. Whilst many Panthic scholars who, by nature, are pro-Dasam Granth have had years of training and methodology related to religion, studies of scripture etc, the opposite side is literally naked! In their bandwagon are the ‘YouTube’ Gianis, truck drivers, an excommunicated ex-Jathedar of the Akal Takht and the self-appointed Singh Sabha Canada – what a joke.

Cut and paste scholars

The self-appointed Chief of this ilk of Pseudo-scholars is none other than a doctor from Southern California, USA. Having a delusion that he has a Doctorate in religion he has dreamt up many a claim on the Dasam Granth. His delusions include cut and paste notes on how the scripture of the Sri Dasam Granth is incorrect and has no history. He is infamous for creating the most hilarious theory in pseudo scholarship – namely, the British created the Dasam Granth. This individual is a medical doctor, but he is more concerned with the anatomical references in the Charitropakhyan! He should do what doctors of medicine do – do the job he knows, and treat medical illnesses. What scholarship do we expect from a medical Doctor who has no training in religious studies?

Whilst there are many saroops of the Dasam Granth from the time of the Guru through to the 18th century, only somebody with limited intellectual skills could come up with such a lazy theory. This insane theory centers on one Manuscript of the Dasam Granth based in the British Library which he claims has the same compositions as the standardised Dasam Granth. This manuscript from the late 18th century was bought by a collector of manuscripts named Colebrooke. On one of the pages is the term “Nanak Panthi Kabya” hence as a result this gentleman states that that the Granth is not called the Dasam Granth. He claims that this Dasam Granth from the late 1700’s was used in the standardized Dasam Granth by the Sodhak Committee. However, this is a lie. The Sodhak Committee looked at over 25 different recensions of the Dasam Granth. He also tries to fool the public with the term “Nanak Panthi Kabya”. Little does he know that it also appears in a Janamsakhi in the British Library. The name is a catalogue name for manuscripts. So there dies this ingenious theory of a cut and paste scholar.

Whilst Akali Phula Singh was being attacked by the British he was maintaining the maryada prevalent at the Akal Takht, the same maryada which is maintained by the Nihangs to this very day and two Takhts of the Sikhs, Patna Sahib and Hazur Sahib. If the Akalis were venerating the bani of Guru Gobind Singh why would the British create a Granth and then attack the same people who did prakash of it with the Guru Granth Sahib?

The prakash of the Dasam Granth at the Akal Takht (which the Akalis were in charge of) was removed by the SGPC in the 1940’s. However the other Takhts would not bow down to such a sacrilege and as a result the prakash continues with flourishing colours.

Religion for sale

Some of this doctor’s articles have appeared in the World Sikh News who are peddling the phobia of the Dasam Granth and promoting a Tankhyia ex Jathedar, together with a tabloid website Sikhchic. It is matter of fact that some persons have been going around offering money to the people behind shady websites and individuals to write negative articles regarding the Dasam Granth.

This is not surprising as the anti Dasam Granth lobby do not have a leg to stand on as a result they have turned to writers for sale. It has been known for some time that money is being offered to various scholars at Universities. As a result recently a score of articles have appeared from people including Dr Balwant Singh Dhillon (Guru Nanak Dev University), Dr Kashmir Singh (Guru Nanak Dev University), Dr Balkar Singh (Punjabi University, Patiala), Dr Gurnam Kaur (Punjabi University, Patiala).

Whilst these individuals who have not undertaken the work of the Dasam Granth in their PHD’s they are now been brought into the limelight. Even more surprising is that the phony calendar maker Pal Singh Purewal has been brought into prove that the dates within the Dasam Granth are incorrect. These people have no bounds. All 18th century texts accept the dates of compilation within the Dasam Granth but now a failed calendar salesman is now an expert on the Dasam Granth. What next a genealogist to prove that compositions were not written at Paonta or Anandpur? Or astronomers to prove that the Sun rises from the West and not East. The pseudo clans of Scholars these proagandists are breeding are bound to call day, a night and vice-versa

Anybody with a little bit of sense knows it takes years to build up a theory, and to undertake real research many manuscripts, books have to be studied. That is why there are experts on the Dasam Granth who have their degrees in Universities. To understand the Dasam Granth you need linguistic Skills, historical knowledge of Braj literature, the poets of the Guru, study of manuscripts and many other methodologies.

In one writing, they also tried to belittle the contributions of the members of the Sodhak Committee by highlighting their occupation, but omitting their Gurmat and literary expertise. That exposed their nefarious anti Sikh designs and real modus operandi big time.

It is earnestly hoped such people shed their hatred for scripture of tenth master. Money can buy you a new car or house but cannot buy real research.

[chatanga1]

Exactly, thats why I ask if there is any pre 1740/1750 Bir. But Bhai Mani Singh Bir is the "so called" first bir of DG ever, how come that it is untraceable?

Well if we see datings, in Avtar section it is 1688 then 1687 then 1688... How come? And btw, the dates could have been inserted later on, don't you think so?

dear sir, the very first bir of Guru Ji's writings were lost during the evacuation of Anandpur in the river sirsa. Bhai Mani Singh Ji RE-compiled the granth, and this granth had been traced to delhi. Best thing is for you togo to delhi and see. If you dont wish to believe then just end this topic.

the second question that i have quoted above, makes me ask you the question: " do writers write all their writings in one sitting?"

what makes you think that if guru has written something on one day, and then soemthing 3 months later, then it must be false?

Come on, I know that you cant be looking for reasons as low as that to find fault in Dasam Granth.

[singh2]

the second question that i have quoted above, makes me ask you the question: " do writers write all their writings in one sitting?"

what makes you think that if guru has written something on one day, and then soemthing 3 months later, then it must be false?

Come on, I know that you cant be looking for reasons as low as that to find fault in Dasam Granth.

Chatanga ji

None of these anti sikh scholars have read Dasam granth. I can guarantee that.Had they, they would have known what is structure of krishna avtar.It is plain silly for Jeonwala to ask this question and it shows he does not know the contents of dasam granth sahib.

I will not educate them on this.rather i will ask for another debate and expose them in full public view.

[Xylitol]

Still waiting for that evidence that poster promised to provide.

[amardeep]

guptsingh watch the following video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8039760281135172&ei=vm-VS6WEEIyC-AbLzs3fAg&q=dasam+granth+gurinder#

[Silence]

sunny bond, u still going to school nanga sir?

[GuptSingh1699]

Hanji. Fighting case with govt, and guess who? Anti DG gurughar of Belgium haha.

[Matheen]

If you had read the Tankhahnama you wouldn't make such a (foolish) statement. Tankhahnama doesn't mention Jaap. It only says to recite Japji, Rehraas and Kirtan Sohila (in verses 25/26).

and I quote, "Waheguru Pun Mantreh Jaap. Kar Ishnan Parhe Jap Jaap (2)" - Rehatnama and Tankahnama of Bhai Nand Lal Ji.

You can tell what type of ink is used by looking at a photo? If you had gone to India, stayed with real Singhs and seen those birs yourself, I would believe you. As it stands, all your 'knowledge' is from the internet and your level/ manner of debating is that found in the comments section of Youtube videos.

None of your 'proofs' are valid. Try again.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Matheen

[GuptSingh1699]

Tankhahnama is not same as Rehatnama. Tankhahnama doesn't mention Jaap. I got whole of Tankhahnama.

Oh really? You just can't answer them haha ! Fake Mani Singh Bir, fake 1698 bir, now you want Guru Gobind Singh to come and say Guru Ji didn't write it or what?

Here are is pic of zafarnama in 1698 bir

Edited March 9, 2010 by Xylitol
before you say someone ran away from debate, provide proof

[amardeep]

how do you know that the above pic is from the 1698 bir? And did u watch the video clip of Gurinder Singh Mann's lecture+

[Silence]

Hanji. Fighting case with govt, and guess who? Anti DG gurughar of Belgium haha.

Well, then how about u show some real anakh about the issue rather than cyberwarrioring the net. I gotta say it takes a dasam granth naastik to go out in public with their joora exposed.

Im saying this for your own good

think about what the heck ur doing.

ninda of Maharaj's granth will only lead to further dishonour

Edited March 9, 2010 by Silence

[GuptSingh1699]

your Dasam Granth chelas of France are going school bareheaded too.

Anakh? I am not some illiterate fool like you, I won't ruin my future. We are winning case anyway. Why show sikhs as people who break law ? We can solve it peacefull way too.

And this cyberwarrioring? don't speak yo, i don't let nyone fool with me in school or wherever it is, unlike u lot who get slapped up by pakis on street. i smash them.

[Xylitol]

Here are is pic of zafarnama in 1698 bir

I figured that you would do something like this. This pic is only one ang, you have given no proof of what bir this is from, or what other banis are written in that bir. It doesn't constitute any sort of proof.

May I ask what grade you are in?

Edited March 9, 2010 by Xylitol

[amardeep]

Guptsingh did you watch the clip? and how can you prove that the above pic is from the 1698 bir?