Two Die In Punjab Honour Killing

[kdsingh80]

A newly wed woman and her mother-in-law were brutally murdered by the bride’s family members in what appears to be an honour killing in Punjab’s Tarn Taran district late on Tuesday night.

Gurveen Kaur (19), her husband Amarpreet Singh (22) and her mother-in-law Kuljit Kaur were attacked by Gurveen’s relatives with swords and other sharp-edged weapons as they were asleep at home in Bahmaniwala village.

The women died on the spot but Amarpreet, who works at a mobile phone repair shop, escaped with injuries and is battling for life in a hospital in Amritsar, the police said.

Though there was no caste angle to the murder, the trio was attacked as the couple had a civil marriage three months ago without the approval of Gurveen’s family, who are into farming.

Tarn Taran SSP Preetpal Singh Virk told HT, “This certainly looks like an honour killing. Although the couple had got married in court, the girl’s family, especially the father, had agreed to the marriage. But one of her uncles was against the marriage and that led to this incident. We have booked the accused and a hunt is on to nab them.”

The attackers included Gurveen’s father, two uncles, three cousins and some unidentified men, the police said.

As Amarpreet ran away from the spot, the assailants chased and fired at him. He was wounded in the arm and shot in the stomach.

Amarpreet’s relative Nirbhay Singh told Hindustan Times, “Although the couple had married in court, things were fine afterwards and the marriage was solemnised again in a gurudwara. Both sides attended that marriage. We fail to understand how this happened suddenly.”

Amarpreet’s father, Baljit Singh, an assistant sub-inspector with the Government Railway Police, was not at home when the family was attacked.

Amarpreet could not be contacted as he was in the Intensive Care Unit of the hospital after undergoing surgery.

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comment

[kdsingh80]

The guy in this marriage was keshdhari and everything was OK.I don't know why on such a small issue they attacked the couple.Dal singh was suggesting that sikh

relatives of that converted 15 year old girl should had smash that guy

Well sikhs also smash Guys who marry their daughter but

they only smash and attack sikh guys

[dalsingh101]

I was talking to a relative from back home and he told me he felt that honour killings were becoming more common in Panjab. Cross caste marriages are also seem to be increasing (I imagine inter-religious marriages are the same). I know a few relatives from back home who have married out of caste although they are now living in the UK and Canada.

Personally my belief is that the liberalisation of relationships (for better or for worse) is taking place in India and that the apparent rise in honour killings is in response to this.

But you do make an interesting observation KDSingh. Back home people are resorting to violence for people choosing their own partners even if their backgrounds share the same faith and even caste, but here in the UK, families frequently do nothing when their daughter runs of with a Musla.

[kdsingh80]

I was talking to a relative from back home and he told me he felt that honour killings were becoming more common in Panjab. Cross caste marriages are also seem to be increasing (I imagine inter-religious marriages are the same). I know a few relatives from back home who have married out of caste although they are now living in the UK and Canada.

Personally my belief is that the liberalisation of relationships (for better or for worse) is taking place in India and that the apparent rise in honour killings is in response to this.

But you do make an interesting observation KDSingh. Back home people are resorting to violence for people choosing their own partners even if their backgrounds share the same faith and even caste, but here in the UK, families frequently do nothing when their daughter runs of with a Musla.

To in last 2-3 years I read 4-5 sikh honour killing cases unfortunately in all the cases the guy was sikh

sometimes a lower caste or sometime above case where their is no good reason.

The girls like Gurveen kaur who should have been role model for today's sikh girls as they are willing marrying turbaned guys are killed by their own parents.

It shows the sad state of sikh society and then we blame corrupt sikh leaders.

[dalsingh101]

Corrupt leaders play their own part in harming us, but you are right, so do our own 'cultural' kartootaan. Like everyone else we don't want to admit our own flaws. This widely practiced lack of reflection in the panth is dangerous because it results in a stagnant non-progressive community. As a quom, I guess we are on the conservative side, in the worst way.

[Mithar]

People from the villages of Tarn Taran, Amritsar and Gurdaspur area are very strict when it comes to their daughters. They do not tolerate their daughters runing away with boys be it a Sikh boy or a non Sikh boy. Family honour means alot in that part of the Punjab.

[Mithar]

The girls like Gurveen kaur who should have been role model for today's sikh girls as they are willing marrying turbaned guys are killed by their own parents.

I don't know if he is exactly a "turbaned boy". From the picture he looks like a regular clean shaven Punjabi boy with a turban on his head, the turban he probably wore for the wedding picture. The ideal Punjabi role model girl in my opinion would be a Punjabi girl who would die then to harm her father’s honour.

[dalsingh101]

I don't know if he is exactly a "turbaned boy". From the picture he looks like a regular clean shaven Punjabi boy with a turban on his head, the turban he probably wore for the wedding picture. The ideal Punjabi role model girl in my opinion would be a Punjabi girl who would die then to harm her father’s honour.

I know that is the ideal but ignoring changes that are going on in the world is seriously dangerous. We have to ask ourselves two important questions.

(1) Can we successfully resist the changes taking place, if they are considered to be detrimental?

(2) If not, in what way can we manage the situation in terms of adaptation of cultural practices?

In the globalised world, the influence of western feminism is growing and unlikely to diminish. More and more women (and blokes for that matter) will want to choose their own partners. Whether parents like it or not.

That all being said, I think in the wider scheme of things, given what is going on in the world, a Sikh girl choosing and marrying a Sikh guy, isn't the end of the earth compared to other things she could do. I know and understand that many of you will disagree with that.

[kdsingh80]

I don't know if he is exactly a "turbaned boy". From the picture he looks like a regular clean shaven Punjabi boy with a turban on his head, the turban he probably wore for the wedding picture. The ideal Punjabi role model girl in my opinion would be a Punjabi girl who would die then to harm her father’s honour.

On which site you have seen the pic?.The boys pic is published in Hindustan times lying on bead with his uncut hairs

The ideal Punjabi role model girl in my opinion would be a Punjabi girl who would die then to harm her father’s honour.

Going by this logic no jatt sikh Girl should marry outside of her caste as it could harm the honour of her father.Also practicing gursikh girls should not oppose their fathers if they want to marry them rich or NRI guys

which are not much in sikhi

Edited May 13, 2010 by kdsingh80

[bhooliya]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SyU3jlQ_jI

[laalsingh]

Personally my belief is that the liberalisation of relationships (for better or for worse) is taking place in India and that the apparent rise in honour killings is in response to this.

Very good. Now we must move on to next very important question. Liberalization, is it for better or for worse?

Discuss on word 'Liberal'.

[dalsingh101]

Very good. Now we must move on to next very important question. Liberalization, is it for better or for worse?

Discuss on word 'Liberal'.

When I used the word liberalisation in relation to Sikh marriage practices, it is important to understand I’m not talking about full on western style liberalisation, but a qualified ‘Sikh liberalisation’ of sorts. By this I mean less restrictions are placed by family/clan in terms of a Sikh choosing a partner within the Sikh community*. In the west this has already started to happen with educated parts of the panth. This may not be a bad thing in my eyes and may well serve as an aid to cement cracks over fault lines across caste boundaries for instance. It may help form bridges between the various groups we seem to divide ourselves into also. I’m sure the caste obsessed may gasp in horror at the thought of this but if we take a look at the Prem Sumarag section on marriage, we will see that the sort of liberalisation I am talking about is not a new or foreign concept being introduced to the panth. Some of our educated ancestors were aware of the benefits of this approach and more flexible in response to combating emerging negative trends than we might imagine today. We should also reflect on our ability to absorb outsiders into the panth through marriage. Like it or lump it, more and more people of Sikh backgrounds are ‘marrying out’ so to speak . Frequently those that do, become estranged to their inheritance either quickly or more gradually, this usually goes double for the offspring of such unions. Seeing as bolstering numbers seems a commonsense policy in a world in which political representation depends on numerical considerations, this too (it could be argued) could be beneficial to the quom. But in comparison to others around us, our collective ability to do this as a community seems very poor. We seem inexperienced with it. In conclusion I think some ‘Sikh liberalisation’ may do us a world of good, but ‘western liberalisation’ would be disastrous. In fact it is the growing impact of the latter on the panth that necessitates the introduction of the former.

*It should be stated that when I use the word community here I am describing what I believe is the wider panth consisting of the full spectrum of Amritdharis, keshdharis and monay.I am aware of the fact that many people will strongly disagree with me in this.

[kdsingh80]

We humans use being liberal or traditional for our benefit.For example in India truck load of sikh girls marry outside religion yet we need torch to find out

how many end up raising children as sikhs.Women say that they have right to choose their husbands irrespective of parents wishes but what happen after marriage? Why can't they tell their husbands that they will raise children as sikhs? Just because it is patriarchal system? so before marriage a girl is liberal who choose to marry a non sikh .After marriage she is traditional because she have to obey her husband

[Mithar]

On which site you have seen the pic?.The boys pic is published in Hindustan times lying on bead with his uncut hairs

Brother, this is the picture I saw. From this picture it is clear he like most turban wearing youths of Punjab also does a close shave on his face. Personally it did not make a difference to me that he be a Mona or Sardar, because marrying a girl against the wishes of her family and shaming her father is not an honourable nor nice thing for a Sardar to do. But at the same time murder of someone is also not justifiable.

Going by this logic no jatt sikh Girl should marry outside of her caste as it could harm the honour of her father.Also practicing gursikh girls should not oppose their fathers if they want to marry them rich or NRI guys

which are not much in sikhi

No, that is not my logic. My logic is that any marriage that should happen should happen with the manzoori/concent of the perents of both boy and girl. Running away and marrying is not as per Gurmat. And I don't understand why you keep bringing in caste or NRI marriages into this story. This is not about caste or NRI marriages. You are mixing so many issues togather with this story which has nothing to do with the issues you have raised.

If a Sikh girl from a Jatt, Khatri, Chamar, Choora, Tarkhan caste wants to marry outside of her caste, then as per Gurmat by all means it should happen but not if she is going against her father. I do not beleive in this type of Luchaa/Ganddhaa western style freedom. Sorry my views have not become this Europeanised yet.

[dalsingh101]

Mithar

I understand where you are coming from but you fail to acknowledge that some parents can often be bewakoofs themselves and unnecessarily put obstacles in the way of a jori for the stupidest of reasons. It is listening to the older lot blindly that has made caste such a strong feature of the panth for instance. I'm not a lover of gora culture but it isn't like some of our own practices aren't dumb ass either?

Plus watch, the way India is going it will be heavily Europeanised is no time at all.

Edited May 14, 2010 by dalsingh101

[kdsingh80]

And I don't understand why you keep bringing in caste or NRI marriages into this story. This is not about caste or NRI marriages. You are mixing so many issues togather with this story which has nothing to do with the issues you have raised.

I am not mixing anything with this story I am just giving you examples.It is a fact that for many Fathers marriges of their daughters are business deals.I am not going to be surprised if I see a father marrying her daughter to Rich hindu rather than marrying her to middle class sikh.In that what should a girl do,Happily accept her fathers wish or revolt.

If a Sikh girl from a Jatt, Khatri, Chamar, Choora, Tarkhan caste wants to marry outside of her caste, then as per Gurmat by all means it should happen but not if she is going against her father. I do not beleive in this type of Luchaa/Ganddhaa western style freedom

In that we all should forget about inter caste marriages as hardly any father would prefer to marry her daughter to another caste

Running away and marrying is not as per Gurmat.

Well I don't think that gurmat deals with this issue.I think it is upto an indivisual to decide what is best for his/her sikhi

Edited May 14, 2010 by kdsingh80

[Mithar]

I am not mixing anything with this story I am just giving you examples.It is a fact that for many Fathers marriges of their daughters are business deals.I am not going to be surprised if I see a father marrying her daughter to Rich hindu rather than marrying her to middle class sikh.In that what should a girl do,Happily accept her fathers wish or revolt.

If you go to Punjab you will see that Punjabi girls are more eager than their father to marry an NRI. Either case it is wrong, whether a father marries his daughter out of greed or a girl runs away with her aashik. Brother, two wrongs do not make a right. If one wrong has come to be acceptable does not mean we should start to accept another wrong.

In that we all should forget about inter caste marriages as hardly any father would prefer to marry her daughter to another caste

Firstly I would like to point out this story is not about caste. But since you have raised this issue we might as well discuss it as well. Many educated people in the cities have come to accept inter caste marriages. Inter caste marriages are also common in religious Jathas (especially the “Kattar” ones). Solution is to bring awareness about the message of our Gurus the masses. Luchee Kuriaan doing ashiquee before marriage is not the solution for this problem. If anything, this will just spread more and more sexually transmitted diseases in Punjab which I’m sure you do not want to see happening in Punjab in a large scale.

Well I don't think that gurmat deals with this issue.I think it is upto an indivisual to decide what is best for his/her sikhi

One great way to learn about Gurmat is from the lives of the 10 Gurus, Bhagats and great Gursikhs (of past and present). I cannot find a single example from the lives of the 10 Gurus, Bhagats or Gursikhs who have indulged in Aashiquee with the opposite sex before marriage. In fact, we see the opposite! they show us by example to be Aaghyakari, obedient and respectful to our parents and elders.

Even the females from the families of the Gurus, Bhagats and Gursikhs can be considered to be ideal Punjabi women who never indulged in pre marital relationships. Before marriage they remained chaste and uncorrupted and after marriage to remained devoted wives.

[shaheediyan]

"Inter caste marriages are also common in religious Jathas (especially the “Kattar” ones)."

Do you want give some examples, because from experience, I know that AKJ, Taksali, Nanaksari and Nihang Jathaas don't carry out this practice.

Personally I have found praying with people and doing sangat is one thing, but when it comes to marriage, then even the 'religious jathai' turn back to Punjabi traditions.

[dalsingh101]

Even the females from the families of the Gurus, Bhagats and Gursikhs can be considered to be ideal Punjabi women who never indulged in pre marital relationships. Before marriage they remained chaste and uncorrupted and after marriage to remained devoted wives.

I think you are misunderstanding. Some 'Sikh liberalisation' doesn't necessarily mean sanctioning pre-marital sex. But you are right to highlight this factor of the argument. Teaching the young to restrain themselves is important but extremely difficult in the west where society plays on your kaam instincts in a myriad of ways, using it like a marketing tool for everything.

[Mithar]

"Inter caste marriages are also common in religious Jathas (especially the “Kattar” ones)."

Do you want give some examples, because from experience, I know that AKJ, Taksali, Nanaksari and Nihang Jathaas don't carry out this practice.

Personally I have found praying with people and doing sangat is one thing, but when it comes to marriage, then even the 'religious jathai' turn back to Punjabi traditions.

Intercaste marriages in religious groups does happen. I have seen Nihangs practicing this, during the 80s in Taksal it was common for students in Taksal to marry out of caste, now this practice has lessened in Taksal. I personally know plenty of examples of AKJ Sikhs also marrying out of caste. Of course for many people who marry out of caste there are plenty of examples who do not want to marry out of caste. But outside of the educated city folks of Punjab, inter caste marriage is only seen in religious groups.

[kdsingh80]

If you go to Punjab you will see that Punjabi girls are more eager than their father to marry an NRI. Either case it is wrong, whether a father marries his daughter out of greed or a girl runs away with her aashik. Brother, two wrongs do not make a right. If one wrong has come to be acceptable does not mean we should start to accept another wrong.

We are not discussing who is more interested in amrrying NRI's Fatheror daughter.I am just asking you just IF a girl's father want to marry her to non practicing sikh or non sikh then what should she do?

Solution is to bring awareness about the message of our Gurus the masses. Luchee Kuriaan doing ashiquee before marriage is not the solution for this problem. If anything, this will just spread more and more sexually transmitted diseases in Punjab which I’m sure you do not want to see happening in Punjab in a large scale.

There is difference between luchee kurian and kurian who chooses their husbands.If a sikh girl finds a suitable sikh guy for herself and wants to spend her life with him then I don't find anything wrong in it.

I don't think she should be called a luchee kuree.And Btw no one here is endorsing pre marital sex

[Mithar]

We are not discussing who is more interested in amrrying NRI's Fatheror daughter.I am just asking you just IF a girl's father want to marry her to non practicing sikh or non sikh then what should she do?

Brother it was not me who brought in the topic about NRI marriages. What I am saying is that if a father wants to marry his daughter out of greed that is wrong, but to justify one wrong does not mean we should start accepting another wrong in the form of Luchaa behaviour in our samaaj. Two wrongs do not make a right brother.

There is difference between luchee kurian and kurian who chooses their husbands.If a sikh girl finds a suitable sikh guy for herself and wants to spend her life with him then I don't find anything wrong in it.

I don't think she should be called a luchee kuree.And Btw no one here is endorsing pre marital sex

If a Sikh girl finds a suitable Sikh boy then by all means marriage should happen(with the aashirvaad and blessings of the parents). The girl should talk to her parents and ask them to talk to the boy's parents. If a girl and boy like each other, it does not mean they should start doing ishq vishq stuff before marriage because that is just a slippery slope leading to pre marital sex. Often times this in turn will lead to disastrous consequences.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Mithar

[dalsingh101]

Mithar

Still, you've not addressed the issue of the parents themselves being idiots or greedy and acting in a way detrimental to their children. Look at how many parents will marry off their daughters to a lazy, sharabee NRI no problems for example. Or marry a young kuri to someone much older than them. I've seen that happen umpteen times herein the UK, so there is no denying it goes on.

Besides, watch, whether we like it or not people will increasingly choose their own partners, in the west at least. Beating them and locking them up (or honour killings) will only go so far. The way I see it, either we get real and get a grip on the matter or ignore it and react to it without circumspection and make things worse.

You talk about Panjabans characteristics, I would say being jiddhi is one also. They are very different to sulliyan who generally toe the line of their community. Our lot often have an obnoxious rebellious streak that reacts very negatively towards control.

Later addition: On reflection I think the above may apply to the UK more than other places (esp. Canada). If guys can keep wholesome, traditional vibes going on there, then I wish them all the best. Here, sadly, I'm of the opinion that it is too far gone and impossible now.

Edited May 16, 2010 by dalsingh101