Ghostface Killah Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 What where the Gurus views on muhammed? I have heard that there is a katha that Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindrawale saying that Muhammed had plagerised the quran? any info? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaikaara Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 there was also a recording of sant jarnailsingh ji khalsa bhindranwale which has been removed from youtube, sant ji i think has given views according to gurmat about him 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 Bachitar Natak has this to say: ਮਹਾਦੀਨ ਕੇਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥੀ ਮਾਂਝ ਹੂਏ ॥ ਸਮੈ ਆਪਨੀ ਆਪਨੀ ਅੰਤ ਮੂਏ ॥੨੭॥ महादीन केते प्रिथी मांझ हूए ॥ समै आपनी आपनी अंत मूए ॥२७॥ Many Muhammads had been on the earth. They were born and then died in their own times. 27. and: ਮਹਾਦੀਨ ਤਬ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਅਰਬ ਦੇਸ ਕੋ ਕੀਨੋ ਰਾਜਾ ॥੨੬॥ महादीन तब प्रभ उपराजा ॥ अरब देस को कीनो राजा ॥२६॥ Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26. ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਏਕ ਪੰਥ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਲਿੰਗ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੀਨੇ ਸਭ ਰਾਜਾ ॥ तिन भी एक पंथ उपराजा ॥ लिंग बिना कीने सभ राजा ॥ He started a religion and circumcised all the kings. ਸਭ ਤੇ ਅਪਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਯੋ ॥੨੭॥ सभ ते अपना नामु जपायो ॥ सति नामु काहूं न द्रिड़ायो ॥२७॥ He caused all to utter his name and did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone.27. ਸਭ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਉਰਝਾਨਾ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾਹੂ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ सभ अपनी अपनी उरझाना ॥ पारब्रहम काहू न पछाना ॥ Everyone placed his own interest first and foremost and did not comprehend the Supreme Brahman. ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਹਰਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਬੁਲਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਮ ਕਹਿ ਕੈ ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥੨੮॥ तप साधत हरि मोहि बुलायो ॥ इम कहि कै इह लोक पठायो ॥२८॥ When I was busy in the austere devotion, the Lord called me and sent me to this world with the following words.28. ਮੈ ਅਪਨਾ ਸੁਤ ਤੋਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜਾ ॥ ਪੰਥ ਪ੍ਰਚੁਰ ਕਰਬੇ ਕਹੁ ਸਾਜਾ ॥ मै अपना सुत तोहि निवाजा ॥ पंथ प्रचुर करबे कहु साजा ॥ I have adopted you as my son and hath created you for the propagation of the path (Panth). ਜਾਹਿ ਤਹਾਂ ਤੈ ਧਰਮੁ ਚਲਾਇ ॥ ਕਬੁਧਿ ਕਰਨ ਤੇ ਲੋਕ ਹਟਾਇ ॥੨੯॥ जाहि तहां तै धरमु चलाइ ॥ कबुधि करन ते लोक हटाइ ॥२९॥ You go therefore for the spread of Dharma (righteousness) and cause people to retrace their steps from evil actions".29. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GillAUS Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 For those who have seen it, can anyone elaborate on what Sant Jarnail Singh ji Bhindranwale was saying in the Youtube video before it was removed from Youtube? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam1825 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 please see the thread below http://www.sikhawareness.com//index.php?showtopic=9489&view=&hl=mohammed%20quran&fromsearch=1 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 As far as i remember Baba ji was just translating the above lines from Bachitar Natak into panjabi. He did not expand any further than what the text says 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaljug Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 I have heard that there is a katha that Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindrawale saying that Muhammed had plagerised the quran? Just wanted to share some info on this topic. Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindrawale was not the first person to say Mo had plagiarised the Quran. Many people had come to similar conclusions before him. See here for a good bibliography of books that deal with this issue: http://debate.org.uk/topics/coolcalm/borrow.html K. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 I'm just thinking. If sullay kuttar panthies ever got ascendancy, they'd try that shite they are currently directing towards the Ahmadhis towards us, using references to their founder and dharam as an excuse. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaljug Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 (edited) I'm just thinking. If sullay kuttar panthies ever got ascendancy, they'd try that shite they are currently directing towards the Ahmadhis towards us, using references to their founder and dharam as an excuse. Except that they don't need any such excuses because we are already infidels in their eyes so there is no need. Also, given that Muslims will use even the excuse of a cartoon to kill innocent unbelievers, I wouldn't worry too much about them trying very hard to look for a particular excuse. K. Edited June 3, 2010 by Kaljug 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 (edited) Except that they don't need any such excuses because we are already infidels in their eyes so there is no need. Also, given that Muslims will use even the excuse of a cartoon to kill innocent unbelievers, I wouldn't worry too much about them trying very hard to look for a particular excuse. K. All that prevents them is the opportunity I guess? I wonder how those quotes from Bachitar Natak squares up with the 'politically correct gone mad' brothers out there? You know, the ones who conflate middle class white liberalism with Sikhi. I wonder how they would explain the Dasam bani quotes to their Muslim friends? Edited June 3, 2010 by dalsingh101 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 Is'nt Muhammad said to have a good personality and be a yaar of God in Bhai Gurdaas Vaara? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 (edited) Is'nt Muhammad said to have a good personality and be a yaar of God in Bhai Gurdaas Vaara? Don't know, maybe he didn't know about Aisha and the captured Jew women he 'had'? Why don't you post the relevant quotes from BGVs so we can all read? Edited June 3, 2010 by dalsingh101 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 ਬਹੁ ਵਾਟੀ ਜਗਿ ਚਲੀਆ ਤਬ ਹੀ ਭਏ ਮੁਹੰਮਦਿ ਯਾਰਾ । When varied sects got prevalent, then Muhammad, the friend (yaaara)of God was born. and ਕੇਤੇ ਬੇਦਿ ਬਿਆਸ ਕਰਿ ਕਈ ਕਤੇਬ ਮੁਹੰਮਦ ਯਾਰਾ । He has created many a dear personality such as Vedavyas and Muhammad dear to the Vedas and the Katebas respectively. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 How on the earth did they translate yaara to mean "beloved of God"? it just means friend doesn't it? not sure why it is present in either of the thuks though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 ਬਹੁ ਵਾਟੀ ਜਗਿ ਚਲੀਆ ਤਬ ਹੀ ਭਏ ਮੁਹੰਮਦਿ ਯਾਰਾ । When varied sects got prevalent, then Muhammad, the friend (yaaara)of God was born. and ਕੇਤੇ ਬੇਦਿ ਬਿਆਸ ਕਰਿ ਕਈ ਕਤੇਬ ਮੁਹੰਮਦ ਯਾਰਾ । He has created many a dear personality such as Vedavyas and Muhammad dear to the Vedas and the Katebas respectively. Is ਯਾਰ a good word? How we came to this translation (beloved of God)? In Vaar 36, Bhai Gurdas says ਚੋਰੁ ਯਾਰੁ ਜੂਆਰਿ ਹਉ ਪਰ ਘਰਿ ਜੋਹੰਦਾ । I am a thief, adulterer; gambler who always keeps his eye upon other's household. ਯਾਰ here is adulterer. Keep reading what happens afterwards where Mohamad is called ਯਾਰ. He does not look like beloved of God. ਬਹੁ ਵਾਟੀ ਜਗਿ ਚਲੀਆ ਤਬ ਹੀ ਭਏ ਮੁਹੰਮਦਿ ਯਾਰਾ । When varied sects got prevalent, then Muhammad, the beloved of God was born. ਕਉਮਿ ਬਹਤਰਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਕਰਿ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਵੈਰੁ ਵਿਰੋਧ ਪਸਾਰਾ । The nation got divided into seventy two divisions and many types of enmity and opposition erupted. ਰੋਜੇ ਈਦ ਨਿਮਾਜਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਮੀ ਬੰਦਿ ਕੀਆ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ । The world was bound to roza, id, namaz, etc. ਪੀਰ ਪੈਕੰਬਰਿ ਅਉਲੀਏ ਗਉਸਿ ਕੁਤਬ ਬਹੁ ਭੇਖ ਸਵਾਰਾ । Pirs, paigambars aulias, gaus and qutabs came into being in many countries. ਠਾਕੁਰ ਦੁਆਰੇ ਢਾਹਿ ਕੈ ਤਿਹਿ ਠਉੜੀ ਮਾਸੀਤਿ ਉਸਾਰਾ । The temples were replaced by mosques. ਮਾਰਨਿ ਗਊ ਗਰੀਬ ਨੋ ਧਰਤੀ ਉਪਰਿ ਪਾਪੁ ਬਿਥਾਰਾ । Less powerful were killed and thus the earth became replete with sin. ਕਾਫਰਿ ਮੁਲਹਦਿ ਇਰਮਨੀ ਰੂਮੀ ਜੰਗੀ ਦੁਸਮਣਿ ਦਾਰਾ । Armenians and Rumis were declared apostates (Kafirs) and they were decimated in the Battle fields. ਪਾਪੇ ਦਾ ਵਰਤਿਆ ਵਰਤਾਰਾ ॥੨੦॥ The sin became ubiquitious all around. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 Silence: Yeah I changed "The beloved of God" in to friend as I dont agree either that yaar means beloved. Laalsingh: The vaar talks about the history of Islam. the 72 sects of Islam were created many years after Muhammads death, as did all of the other happenings in the vaar. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 ਮਾਰਨਿ ਗਊ ਗਰੀਬ ਨੋ ਧਰਤੀ ਉਪਰਿ ਪਾਪੁ ਬਿਥਾਰਾ । Less powerful were killed and thus the earth became replete with sin. ਕਾਫਰਿ ਮੁਲਹਦਿ ਇਰਮਨੀ ਰੂਮੀ ਜੰਗੀ ਦੁਸਮਣਿ ਦਾਰਾ । Armenians and Rumis were declared apostates (Kafirs) and they were decimated in the Battle fields. ਪਾਪੇ ਦਾ ਵਰਤਿਆ ਵਰਤਾਰਾ ॥੨੦॥ The sin became ubiquitious all around. Hardly a ringing endorsement is it...... On another interesting note, thanks for posting that. We have uncovered (possibly) the earliest use of the oft-cited phrase 'gau gareeb'! Previous to today, I'd thought that the earliest use was in Bhatt Vahis, which have a very murky provenance. Bravo, my Singh brothers, bravo! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 (edited) Word 'yaara' is used with Mohamad's name twice. It could mean 'prophet' or 'guide' in Abrahamic vocabulary. Torah is also said to be derived from Hebrew word 'yara' meaning 'to guide'. I am not sure but it is a possibility. http://strongsnumbers.com/hebrew/3384.htm NASB Word Usage archers (2), archers shot (1), archers* (2), cast (3), cast them down (1), directed (1), instruct (4), instructed (1), instruction (1), instructs (1), laid (1), point (1), points (1), rain (1), set (1), shoot (10), shot (3), shot through (1), showed (1), taught (3), teach (27), teacher (2), teaches (2), teaching (1), throws (1), watering (1). Edited June 3, 2010 by laalsingh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 Now that is very interesting 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 Word 'yaara' is used with Mohamad's name twice. It could mean 'prophet' or 'guide' in Abrahamic vocabulary. Torah is also said to be derived from Hebrew word 'yara' meaning 'to guide'. I am not sure but it is a possibility. http://strongsnumbers.com/hebrew/3384.htm Possibly, but if one of the key reasons for the existence of BGVs was to provide a simpler exegesis/interpretation of Sikh thought in Panjabi then I wonder if BG would use such obscure vocabulary for his audience? Maybe he is simply using the term yaar as in friend. Guru Gobind Singh used the similar word mithar in one of his compositions, if that is at all relevent? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 Zafarnama: ਨ ਈਮਾਂ ਪਰਸਤੀ ਨ ਅਉਜ਼ਾਇ ਦੀਂ ॥ ਨ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸ਼ਨਾਸੀ ਨ ਮੁਹੱਮਦ ਯਕੀਂ ॥੪੬॥ They were neither men of faith, nor true followers of Islam, they did not know the Lord not had faith in the prophet.46. One can logically conclude that since the mughals did'n follow Islam, Islam must be the opposite of how the mughals acted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 (edited) None of us know Persian so we can't really analyse the zafarnama text. Besides, it does appear that even in the early stages of Islam , i.e. when Mohammad was around, women were still taken as booty and prisoners executed upon refusal to convert to the new faith. What the Moghuls added to this was elaborate and deliberate torture, most likely a penchant from their own Mongol itihaas? Edited June 3, 2010 by dalsingh101 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted June 4, 2010 Report Share Posted June 4, 2010 We are making it too difficult. If ਯਾਰ word is adjective for Mohamad, it would have been ਯਾਰੁ or ਯਾਰ, not ਯਾਰਾ. 'Yaara' here looks like third person being addressed to (like poets do, there must be a term for it). One thing is certain that Mohamad is not a 'Yaar' of Bhai Gurdas and definitely not 'Yaar' of Lord. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaljug Posted June 4, 2010 Report Share Posted June 4, 2010 'Yaara' here looks like third person being addressed to (like poets do, there must be a term for it). Apostrophe or the vocative form of address, I can't recall which. K. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 4, 2010 Report Share Posted June 4, 2010 We are making it too difficult. If ਯਾਰ word is adjective for Mohamad, it would have been ਯਾਰੁ or ਯਾਰ, not ਯਾਰਾ. 'Yaara' here looks like third person being addressed to (like poets do, there must be a term for it). One thing is certain that Mohamad is not a 'Yaar' of Bhai Gurdas and definitely not 'Yaar' of Lord. I'm not sure if we can discount the reference as alluding to a yaar of God, but yes, he definitely wasn't a yaar of BG. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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