The Lotus

[dalsingh101]

ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਹੋਹਿ ਜਬ ਰਾਖੇ ਕਮਲੁ ਬਿਗਸੈ ਮਧੁ ਆਸ੍ਰਮਾਈ ॥੨॥

When chanting, austere meditation and self-discipline become your protectors, then the lotus blossoms forth, and the honey trickles out. ||2||

M1

SGGS ji

Ang 23

Is anyone knowledgeable about the lotus and its significance in Sikh metaphor as well as its relationship with other eastern dharams? Would you share your gian?

Is there any katha or something?

Edited June 5, 2010 by dalsingh101

[shaheediyan]

The lotus has always been a sign of purity in Indian/Snaatan dharma.

It was heavily popularised by the Buddist dharm.

It represents the emergence of clarity out of chaos, light out of darkness and purity out of filth.

Lotus plants are most commonly found in rancid ponds, where a stream source may have dried up, hence there is no oxygen supply...

[dalsingh101]

The lotus has always been a sign of purity in Indian/Snaatan dharma.

It was heavily popularised by the Buddist dharm.

It represents the emergence of clarity out of chaos, light out of darkness and purity out of filth.

Lotus plants are most commonly found in rancid ponds, where a stream source may have dried up, hence there is no oxygen supply...

That's beautiful man.

So there are parallels with the Native Indian concept of the phoenix with the rising of something beautiful/strong from less than optimal or even somewhat destroyed environments. I think the Native Indian allegory emphasises the emerging strength and beauty whilst the dharmic concept places emphasis on purity?

[shaheediyan]

It's all relevant, it's one and the same. Dharma out of Adharma - that can take many facets.

[Guest]

Lotus is very symbolic. I always wondered about this, it will look extremely beautiful to have guru maharaj parkash on huge customized lotus flower made out of gulab tile. Even though i think it would be great idea, i m reluctant to share that idea with anyone in real life because they may think its beadi as it would replace palki sahib. i m bit confused on this, what you guys think? Does that break maryada in anyway?

[dalsingh101]

Lotus is very symbolic. I always wondered about this, it will look extremely beautiful to have guru maharaj parkash on huge customized lotus flower made out of gulab tile. Even though i think it would be great idea, i m reluctant to share that idea with anyone in real life because they may think its beadi as it would replace palki sahib. i m bit confused on this, what you guys think? Does that break maryada in anyway?

I don't know what you mean by gulab tile but did you know that M. Ranjit Singh's famous golden throne too replicated a lotus flower apparently.

Edited June 29, 2010 by dalsingh101

[Guest]

It's hard to describe it what i meant by gulab tile.. that picture above will do for now.. you got the concept.. i will find a picture best suits what i m talking about..lol

[Parchand]

this is funny but this was on my mind too. Lotus is universal symbol of dharma/spirituality/Sant aspect of faith.

N30 its funny daas had similar thoughts of Mahraaj parkash on Kamal/Lotus, with massive Sheshnaga/Cobra as Canopy.

daas had special order of pink lotus flowers donated to GuruGhar recently and Gianis mentioned they were nice although there is preference in terms of flowers to use in Darbaar Sahib due to cleanliness and with parkash i'm sure there's ways of adapting palki as in past centuries there's been so many different styles and changes.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Parchand

[Guest]

Good to know parchand veer..we got similar thoughts on this...let's get more views from sangat and see what they think?

[dalsingh101]

A quick question if you will folks:

ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਹੋਹਿ ਜਬ ਰਾਖੇ ਕਮਲੁ ਬਿਗਸੈ ਮਧੁ ਆਸ੍ਰਮਾਈ ॥੨॥

When chanting, austere meditation and self-discipline become your protectors, then the lotus blossoms forth, and the honey trickles out. ||2||

In the above tuk I think the word mudh (ਮਧ) has been translated as honey. I've never heard this before? I always though it referred to wine? Has anyone else ever heard of honey being referred to as mudh(u)?

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Regarding the question of the alternative palki, I don't think anyone would have an issue with the lotus design myself but the sheshnaag canopy might raise a few eyebrows or get some people stirred up. At first I was apprehensive about the idea myself but on deeper reflection I realised that the image of a snake that many of us (raised in the west) have internalised is a very negative one, possibly due to its connection with Christian traditions regarding events in the garden of Eden.

But our own traditions mention Baba Nanak being shaded by a cobra in his younger days, so your imagined palki (or whatever it is) wouldn't actually be straying too far from our own existing iconography. But I do love the idea of a lotus stool for Maharaj ji.

[laalsingh]

In the above tuk I think the word mudh (ਮਧ) has been translated as honey. I've never heard this before? I always though it referred to wine? Has anyone else ever heard of honey being referred to as mudh(u)?

Mudh is honey. ਤੇਰੀ ਚਾਲ ਸੁਹਾਵੀ ਮਧੁਰਾੜੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ Also ਜਿਉ ਮਧੁ ਮਾਖੀ ਤਿਉ ਸਠੋਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਜੋਰਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਕੀਆ ॥

Mud is intoxication.ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਮਦੁ ਜੋ ਪੀਵਤੇ ਬਿਖਲੀ ਪਤਿ ਕਮਲੀ ॥

[Parchand]

what is the background regarding use of Lionskin in SachKhand, Darbar Sahib and in images of Mahpursh?

wouldnt iconography based on sakhiaan or symbols of royalty be in a similar light?

[shaheediyan]

I think it refers to an 'Elixir'. In any case it is a metaphor for Amrit, be it honey, wine or whatever.

The Shere/Babbar-Shere/Baag-Chamriis is traditionally used by Indian Sadhus to keep dangerous animals away whilst they are in deep mediation in scenic/wild environments.

Funny how so many people make a fuss about 'contamination' via animal goods today, when Mahapursh until recent times performed that utmost ritual of purity (prema bhagti) whilst in direct contact with a pashus chamri/maas.

Edited June 7, 2010 by shaheediyan

[SURYADEV]

I think it refers to an 'Elixir'. In any case it is a metaphor for Amrit, be it honey, wine or whatever.

The Shere/Babba-Shere/Baag-Chamriis is traditionally used by Indian Sadhus to keep dangerous animals away whilst they are in deep mediation in scenic/wild environments.

Funny how so many people make a fuss about 'contamination' via animal goods today, when Mahapursh until recent times performed that utmost ritual of purity (prema bhagti) whilst in direct contact with a pashus chamri/maas.

.....not to mention the dholki, tabla, chaur etc that are all made from animal parts.

[Parchand]

thanks for the info on Shere skins paaji.

agreed that animal maas has always had a presence in Darbar from the instruments to shastars etc but i cant imagine any sadhu trying to meditate being too happy with alcohol & tobacco products being used nearby.. as now happens with adjoining GuruGhar party halls..

[shaheediyan]

Of course Parchand Ji, thats whole different topic.

Jattboot, don't forget the 'gutt' strings from bakrai, which were plucked and bowed by the divine Gurus and Rababis!

The Goat is a very versatile animal!

Edited June 7, 2010 by shaheediyan

[dalsingh101]

I don't get it.

So what is the deal with so called pollution by meat, when we have animal products in the inner most sanctum of our places of worship? And we use them to sing divine naam?

Something doesn't quite tally?

And I'm not trying to suggest that it should be okay to eat 'two piece chicken and chips' in a Gurdwara before anyone jumps in with that one!

[Parchand]

those with singh sabha influence might claim "pollution" or "contamination" as some keep bibek. but i think GuruGhar maryada is affected most by daily practicality.

animal products have always been used in Darbar and throughout Sikh lifestyle - no dispute.

whether or not sikh diet is carnivore/herbivore (i'm not getting into that).

i will share my personal view on Langar which is that for practical rather than religious reasons on the whole it has been vegetarian in most Gurughars. Guru Amar Das Ji is unlikely to have started a sewa (selfless service) tradition based on universality and openness and then used a diet with meat in it. otherwise Emporer Akbar on that first meeting who very reluctantly sat in pangat probably would have walked away saying the Kalma hasnt been read over the meat, or it isnt Halal, etc. muslims have always been kattar on this point and refuse to eat non-halal or pork. many nirmal hindus, sadhus, jains and buddhists would object to their food touching meat products. similarly i cant see how livestock could be donated as food in same way as other ingredients are.