Has Anyone Read Prem Sumarag?

[Silence]

We are not pagans we are sikhs, what next no sunglasses where disrespecting the sun god?!

[amardeep]

hahah good one silence

[dalsingh101]

Have to drop this in. Translation isn't brilliant. BGV, Vaar 5 Pauri 21.

ਸਉਣ ਸਗੁਨ ਵੀਚਾਰਣੇ ਨਉ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਬਾਰਹ ਰਾਸਿ ਵੀਚਾਰਾ ।

saun sagun veechaaranay nau grih baarah raasi veechaaraa|

The life led in the light of omens, the nine planets, the twelve signs of the zodiac;

Line 1

ਕਾਮਣ ਟੂਣੇ ਅਉਸੀਆ ਕਣਸੋਈ ਪਾਸਾਰ ਪਸਾਰਾ ।

kaaman toonay auseeaa kanasoee paasaar pasaaraa|

Incantations, magic divination by lines and by the voice is all futile.

Line 2

ਗਦਹੁ ਕੁਤੇ ਬਿਲੀਆ ਇਲ ਮਲਾਲੀ ਗਿਦੜ ਛਾਰਾ ।

gadahu kutay bileeaa il malaalee gidarh chhaaraa|

Cries of donkeys, dogs, cats, kites, blackbirds and jackals cannot control our lives.

Line 3

ਨਾਰਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਅਗਨਿ ਛਿਕ ਪਦ ਹਿਡਕੀ ਵਰਤਾਰਾ ।

naari purakhu paanee agani chhik pad hidakee varataaraa|

It is superstitious to draw good or bad omens from meeting a widow, a bare headed man, water, fire, sneezing, breaking wind, hiccups;.

Line 4

ਥਿਤਿ ਵਾਰ ਭਦ੍ਰਾ ਭਰਮ ਦਿਸਾ ਸੂਲ ਸਹਸਾ ਸੈਸਾਰਾ ।

diti vaar bhadraa bharam disaa sool sahasaa saisaaraa|

Lunar and week days, lucky-unlucky moments and going or not going in a particular direction

Line 5

ਵਲਛਲ ਕਰਿ ਵਿਸਵਾਸ ਲਖ ਬਹੁ ਚੁਖੀ ਕਿਉ ਰਵੈ ਭਤਾਰਾ ।

valachhal kari visavaas|akh bahu chukhee kiu ravai bhataaraa|

If a women behaves like a prostitute and does every thing to please everybody, how can she be loved by her husband.

Line 6

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੁਖ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਰ ਉਤਾਰਾ ॥੮॥

guramukhi sukh dhalu paar utaaraa ॥8॥

The gurmukhs who reject all superstitions enjoy happiness with their Lord and get across the world-ocean.

[amardeep]

Though I dont promote prostitution ,the chapter on the sikh state and brothels is very interesting on the point of government.

Where I live for many years they allowed the sale of drugs in a certain place in the capital. For many years drug abuse was limited to this part of town only. When a new government was elected, they forbade the selling of drugs and cracked down on the streets and started surveiling it . What happend in the next few years was that drugselling and abuse spread all over the country because there was no one place where it was allowed where people would then go to do their business.

Analytics now say that the increasing abuse of drugs in areas that were not harmed before is because of the governments no tolerance for drugs, which led it to spread all over the country. We have had gang fights for 2 years now because gangs wants to control the market.

IN the same way prem sumarag says its best to limit the use of brothels to certain places, so that adultary does not take place in the country as a whole hereby corrupting society

[Kaljug]

Though I dont promote prostitution ,the chapter on the sikh state and brothels is very interesting on the point of government.

Where I live for many years they allowed the sale of drugs in a certain place in the capital. For many years drug abuse was limited to this part of town only. When a new government was elected, they forbade the selling of drugs and cracked down on the streets and started surveiling it . What happend in the next few years was that drugselling and abuse spread all over the country because there was no one place where it was allowed where people would then go to do their business.

Analytics now say that the increasing abuse of drugs in areas that were not harmed before is because of the governments no tolerance for drugs, which led it to spread all over the country. We have had gang fights for 2 years now because gangs wants to control the market.

IN the same way prem sumarag says its best to limit the use of brothels to certain places, so that adultary does not take place in the country as a whole hereby corrupting society

Yeah, I had raised eyebrows reading that also. The author of PS doesn't promote prostitution either, he simply realised that the "oldest profession in the world" isn't going anywhere. It just goes to show how forward thinking the level of politics was at that time.

On the subject of drugs, see Portugal's success story after it decriminalised drugs.

I wonder how many Sikhs today could endorse such revolutionary ideas to tackle social ills like drugs and prostitution without a backlash from the rehat police.

K.

[chatanga1]

The author of PS doesn't promote prostitution either, he simply realised that the "oldest profession in the world" isn't going anywhere. It just goes to show how forward thinking the level of politics was at that time.

K.

wouldnt it have been more of a forward thinking policy to ensure that women didnt have to resort to prostitution, before tackling men who want to pay for sex?

im sure that there will be a percentage of women (and men hookers) who enjoy what they do, but aren't most forced to do it?

Think about it, you have a group of men who want to fornicate, and the King/Ruler is advertising for prostitutes.

[dalsingh101]

Yeah, I had raised eyebrows reading that also. The author of PS doesn't promote prostitution either, he simply realised that the "oldest profession in the world" isn't going anywhere. It just goes to show how forward thinking the level of politics was at that time.

On the subject of drugs, see Portugal's success story after it decriminalised drugs.

I wonder how many Sikhs today could endorse such revolutionary ideas to tackle social ills like drugs and prostitution without a backlash from the rehat police.

K.

If we read Honigberger's medical perspective eye witness account of the Sikh kingdom, attitudes towards drugs were definitely not the puritan type we have in the panth today. These seem to have come about as a result of the Victorian era influences on us. But even then, look at how todays strict attitude towards drugs hasn't exactly prevented mass addiction in our heartland. So current practices are failing miserably. As an interesting note, Honigberger mentions the fact that drugs were banned for the incarcerated under Ranjit Singh but that the British introduced (reintroduced?) drugs for prisoners after the 'annexation'.

As for prostitutes, although I too don't promote it, I went to Holland when I was younger and their policy of having a controlled industry seemed much better than the seedy, underground stuff that goes on in the UK. As you mentioned, it is 'the oldest trade in the world' and whilst men have kaamic instincts, will always exist. Better to minimise and control it than pretend it doesn't go on or continually fight an unextinguishable fire I guess.

Again this just shows you how enlightened the author of PS were in relation to social ills and the nature of humans and statecraft. I can't imagine Singhs running around closing down brothels when there were real threats like imperialistic Anglo-Saxons and Jihadi Sullay knocking at the doorstep.

Edited June 14, 2010 by dalsingh101

[amardeep]

One thing i noticed about the Prem Sumarag is that the authors were very realistic. They did not portray the ideal state and life, but rather a realistic state and life. For instance it says that you should never tell a lie, however you should not tell the truth either if it might hurt someone (imagine your wife asks you if she looks fat in a certain dress and you say yes lol).. and same with drugs where it is said that one should not use drugs, however if one absolutely has to do it, then do it in this and that way to cause minimum damage.

a very realistic world view. Im especially fascinated by the concept of Justice in the books. very modern and ahead of its time

Edited June 12, 2010 by amardeep

[chatanga1]

in terms of realism and idealism where do you think gurmat stands?

[amardeep]

Gurmat lifestyle is an ideal that is achievable for the individual hereby making it realistic if one makes the effort

[dalsingh101]

How does gurmat apply to running a society that is comprised of Sikhs and nonSikhs, the pious and the irreligious, as well as the masses between these positions?

[chatanga1]

how did it apply in Guru Ji's times? There you will find your answer.

[jvalasingh]

This principle isn't so redundent these days. Where it says candles, read jot made of ghee. I have been told that the reason you dont blow out divas, jots and agarbati dhoops (incense) etc is that by doing so you doing are not respecting agni-dev. A sort of beadbi to Agni.

However I cant see how this works when you blow into a choola with a phookna when cooking.

I believe the idea is about the concept of jhoot, blowing out the diva is putting your jhoot from your mouth on it, its not a matter of bloowing any air on it like with a phookna etc.

[dalsingh101]

how did it apply in Guru Ji's times? There you will find your answer.

Now we don't have human Gurus, theoretically I guess it is left to the Panj Piaray to arbitrate in areas of greyness. Don't know if this would work for state governing though?

[alias]

I believe the idea is about the concept of jhoot, blowing out the diva is putting your jhoot from your mouth on it, its not a matter of bloowing any air on it like with a phookna etc.

gurfateh jeoz, my first post on this forum

all this agni puja buisness is just totally outlandish and soooo not thhe meaning of the jort thing.!!

its not the concept of jhoot either but jhoot duz come into play..

if u wana understand the reason y we dont blow out the jot then u gota see wot the jot symbolises.

we use ghee because its natural etc, and more importently, it can be topped up. it cant be extinguished say, mid akhand paat.

in the same sense y we do aarti wen guru ji tells us kaisee aarti hoi ..., is why we do the jort. yea, ppl say its for just incase if the lyt goes.. but it also has the meaning of the jot of god.

during akhand paat, the jort has got to stay on. it should not go out. an unintentional "going out of the jort" by wind is seen to be a bad thing.

thus, wind, hence blowing out the jort, is why it is said to be not allowed. to extinguish the jort thus is said to, cant be extinguished with wind.

here is where the general theory stops and next is what i think...> fingers are the only other option so thas probs y they use fingers. its probs because its final.. maybe!

so this is y cant blow the jort.

gurfateh

[dalsingh101]

Revisiting this work and am wondering about the instruction to recite Japji and Jaap Sahibs 5 times each at Amritvela....

Plus it says to read Japji and Jaap with Rehras as well in evening.

Seems quite unorthodox?

[amardeep]

I just read a few pages today in the original panjabi.. The language seems awfully modern to be a pre-1800 text... Its in prose so its very straight forward...

[amardeep]

The 1812 english translation of the first chapter of Prem Sumarag only says to recite japji sahib and jaap sahib once, so I think ther have been different copies around.

Here is the panjabi text that Mcleod used as his basis:

Amritvele pahar raat rehndee eih kirt dehee di kare. panj varee Japu to Jaap parhe. Naale Anand panj varee parhe.

Perform this bodily discipline during the tranquil hours of the last watch of the night. Recite Japu[ji] and jâp five times [each] and likewise Anand. [Mcleod translation p. 14]

Edited March 24, 2011 by amardeep

[dalsingh101]

Where are you getting the Panjabi text from? Randhir Singh's book?

[amardeep]

no its on scribd. Piara singhs padams book "rehitname"