Panjabi Vocabulary Builder Thread

[dalsingh101]

Thanks for that Laadli Fauj. I think I get it.

It seems to be a new introduction to the alphabet, as in last two decades? I have a slight and amateur interest in linguistics, so it's a bit exciting to be around when the language is actually developing in front of our eyes like this.....sad I know........lol

Here's another good one for the people:

ਬੇਖਬਰ

Another open question. Did any of you readers actually come across these words growing up? Were these types of words used in your home? Are they unlikely to have been so for those of us who come from families with a relatively recent 'village' background?

Do let me know.

Edited July 29, 2010 by dalsingh101

[laalsingh]

I tried a lot, but can't say 'z' or 'jaja pair bindi'. Frankly, both the Jajjas sound very similar to me.

[dalsingh101]

I tried a lot, but can't say 'z' or 'jaja pair bindi'. Frankly, both the Jajjas sound very similar to me.

lol

One is z as in zoro, the swashbuckling masked fellow. The other is j as in Jug. Maybe listening to some Parsi or French would help?

The one that has completely bamboozled me for life is the faffa parh bindhi. How is that one different to standard faffa?

[Laadli Fauj]

faffe pair bindhee is throaty. its kinda hard to explain lol

[laalsingh]

When ਵਲੈਤੀ kids speak Punjabi, I see that they can't speak some Punjabi words like ਫ or ਭ. For Bhaaji, they would say Paaji, for ਮੱਝਾਂ, they would say ਮੱਜਾਂ.

[laalsingh]

lol

One is z as in zoro, the swashbuckling masked fellow. The other is j as in Jug. Maybe listening to some Parsi or French would help?

The one that has completely bamboozled me for life is the faffa parh bindhi. How is that one different to standard faffa?

This problem must be common, maybe that's why Z is called 'zed' instead of 'zee'. Some people might be pronouncing 'gee' and 'zee' similarly.

[SURYADEV]

lol

One is z as in zoro, the swashbuckling masked fellow. The other is j as in Jug. Maybe listening to some Parsi or French would help?

The one that has completely bamboozled me for life is the faffa parh bindhi. How is that one different to standard faffa?

Pafa per binfi = the letter F, as in fafa

Pafa alone= Papa, as in the english P with a proper english accent.

Lala = pronounced heavily. think of someone with a strong indian accent

Lala per bindi = pronounced lightly, almost wispishly. Very difficult to distinguish the two.

I was told that these bindis were added to incorporate the farsi language into gurmukhi.

Dalsingh dont know how old you are but in the 80's I was taught this bindi-thingy. I recall from the standard 35letter, 6 more were added with bindis.

What I'd like to know of is all the accents that are used in Dasam bani (mainly farsi bani) but not in AdiGranth.

I can pronounce some of the common ones in context - r, h, the 'adekh' - but don't even know the names.

[SURYADEV]

Here's another good one for the people:

ਬੇਖਬਰ

Does it mean 'bad news'?

Be= negative

Khabar = news

[dalsingh101]

This problem must be common, maybe that's why Z is called 'zed' instead of 'zee'. Some people might be pronouncing 'gee' and 'zee' similarly.

It is very common. My mother could never understand the difference even after 40 + years in England. It would be "x, y, jed".

From the perspective of linguistics it is a very strange phenomena as both of the sounds of j and z are represented in Panjabi alphabet phonemes? I can't explain it.

Other very common mistakes made by people from back home include:

W and V confusion. As in "what" becoming "vut" - Explainable due to having only ਵ.

Ws/Vs turned into Bs. As in "video" becoming "bideo" - Partially explainable due to no strong V phoneme in Panjabi.

Ys turned in Js. As in "you" becoming more like "jew" - Inexplicable due to clear distinction of ਜ਼ and ਜ?

Th turns into Dha. As in "the" becoming "dha" - Partially explainable due too no clear "th" sound (as in the) in Gurmukhi.

F turns into Ph. As in "for" becoming "phor" Inexplicable due to clear distinction of ਫ and ਪ?

So, "what video do you want me to get for you?" becomes:

"Vhut bideo do ju vhant me to get phour ju?"

Panjabis make me laugh in that frequently you get guys here for long periods, like say 20 years plus and they still struggle with speaking the language. I've seen so many totally non English speaking people from other places pick it up in a couple of years.

At least some of the brothers from back home can write properly now. That's some improvement.

Edited July 30, 2010 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

I was told that these bindis were added to incorporate the farsi language into gurmukhi.

Dalsingh dont know how old you are but in the 80's I was taught this bindi-thingy. I recall from the standard 35letter, 6 more were added with bindis.

What I'd like to know of is all the accents that are used in Dasam bani (mainly farsi bani) but not in AdiGranth.

I can pronounce some of the common ones in context - r, h, the 'adekh' - but don't even know the names.

I think you misunderstood, I was taught the bindhi thing as well, but five letters, not 6. The lalla one wasn't there. Those 5 bindhi ones were obviously introduced around the time of dasmesh pita as SGGS ji doesn't contain them but apparently DG does. Plus we still have the alphabet as written out by Guru Arjan dev ji and they have the 35 only. The lalla pahr bindhi seems a very recent development.

I learned the same thing as you regarding the adoption of Farsi and Arabicesque words in Panjabi. Some clever clogs added the new letters to incorporate the exogenous sounds. Maybe dasmesh pita themselves? Who knows.

When you think about it, it is pretty crazy that amongst everything else they did, the Gurus also managed to popularise and develop Gurmukhi from the landa script.

What accents are you taking about? Those mini letters underneath main ones?

[SURYADEV]

I think you misunderstood, I was taught the bindhi thing as well, but five letters, not 6. The lalla one wasn't there. Those 5 bindhi ones were obviously introduced around the time of dasmesh pita as SGGS ji doesn't contain them but apparently DG does. Plus we still have the alphabet as written out by Guru Arjan dev ji and they have the 35 only. The lalla pahr bindhi seems a very recent development.

What accents are you taking about? Those mini letters underneath main ones?

Thanks for clarifying . I think the lala perbindi was the 6th letter I was taught. With the world getting a smaller and more foren bhashas being known I would be suprised if someone adds one or two more letters.

Yes the small accents that are usually placed at the foot of the letter. apart From the common ones that we use, i'm pretty sure there are quite a few more that only indic linguists or poets or scholars use.

[dalsingh101]

This letter always baffled me: ਞ. I mean how often do you come across it? Really.

That pretty much goes for this baby too actually ਙ

Quite a few things have fallen out of vogue in the language. Like I think in older writing you actually have a "mini, underneath" whaa-whaa like ਸ੍ਵਾਰ, who ever sees that now? Do we really need it when we can go ਸਵਾਰ?

If you look at this attached image from an online dictionary you can see a bunch of those 'mini, underneath' symbols. I mean it isn't difficult to figure out how to use them but again, how often you you come across some of these? I never even knew about the existence of "mini, underneath" chachas, tankas and nannas! lol

There is another interesting aspect to all this. If historical studies of other languages are anything to go by. We may, in say a century or two (providing people and our language survives), see calls for a "re-standardisation" of the language to make it more simpler. Certain things will influence this heavily. The first is the attachment to the language in its traditional form. The links to the language and our beloved Gurus gives us an extra attachment at the moment but (God forbid) if Sikhi ever seriously declines in Panjab for whatever reason (like the proliferation of secularism, agnosticism, athiesm etc.), you may get a generation in future that wants reform of the language. If this happens we'll may have a situation where we have two strains of Gurmukhi. The "ancient" and the modern. Thing is we are already seeing people back home preferring Hindi and in future I imagine English will be the same, so we have to keep an eye out. Plus you should know, look how absolutely shite the standard of Panjabi is in the UK in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation. When I taught I was a bit dismayed to find young Sikh boys totally shite at Panjabi to the point of not knowing ANY or being incapable or embarrassed to speak it, whilst a good few British Pakistan boys spoke it fluently and have good vocabularies i.e. more than the standards pendu repertoire. Surprisingly even some kesh-dhari kids were like this. Plus I've even come across the odd Amritdhari who can't read Panjabi well despite being baptised for years! (hopefully that is rare).

Thankfully our Canuck brothers are holding up the bar with Panjabi linguistic skills from what I hear from family over there. It is a shame really because Panjabi is a really interesting and beautiful language in all its forms (apart from the gay sounding nasalised goofy way some brothers from back home speak it! That is an affront to the ears! )

Edited July 30, 2010 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

Okay, more beauts for the interested:

ਵਾਚਕ

ਇਖਤਿਆਰ

ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨ or ਪਰਮਾਨ

This one is another baffler:

ਸ਼ੂਨ੍ਯ

Edited July 30, 2010 by dalsingh101

[SURYADEV]

Okay, more beauts for the interested:

ਵਾਚਕ

ਇਖਤਿਆਰ

ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨ or ਪਰਮਾਨ

1. orator

2. 'uh dunno'

3. announcement/decree

[SURYADEV]

Those are the stuff i'm on about (in your pic).

Can you tell us anything about their usage, sounds, rules etc?

[SURYADEV]

Okay, more beauts for the interested:

ਵਾਚਕ

ਇਖਤਿਆਰ

ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨ or ਪਰਮਾਨ

This one is another baffler:

ਸ਼ੂਨ੍ਯ

4. Zero, nothing, no value

[dalsingh101]

Does it mean 'bad news'?

Be= negative

Khabar = news

Very interesting that you broke it down like that. When I read it I sort of idiotically (on reflection) broke it into two equal halves (ਬੇਖ ਬਰ)???

SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary

Per. adj. Without information, without knowledge, ignorant

English Translation

adj. ignorant, uninformed, unconscious, absent minded.

So the prefix "be" = without.

That reminds me, I've always wondered what a "wakoof" was exactly. Seeing as being without it leads to one being an idiot i.e "bewakoof". Sounds very Persian. Wonder what it is, especially as moms would call me this like it was a second name or something when younger....lol

[dalsingh101]

Those are the stuff i'm on about (in your pic).

Can you tell us anything about their usage, sounds, rules etc?

From what I understand they are essentially sounds pronounced fractionally softer and quicker than their full counter parts.

Sometimes they seem to be interchangeable with their full counterparts as in

ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨ and ਪਰਮਾਨ

ਸ੍ਵਾਰ and ਸਵਾਰ

So I would say the r and w sounds in the former versions much quicker and with very slightly less emphasis that with the version using the full blown letters.

Diff. in the first example would be like - pramaan to purmaan.

Hope it helps?

Edited July 30, 2010 by dalsingh101

[SURYADEV]

yes cheers for that.

Sant Jagjit Singhji once said that the Panjabi language is very ancient, even preceding sanskrit. But with all the changes over the centuries and the great influence of arabic and farsi is it really the same lingo as it was.

[dalsingh101]

yes cheers for that.

Sant Jagjit Singhji once said that the Panjabi language is very ancient, even preceding sanskrit. But with all the changes over the centuries and the great influence of arabic and farsi is it really the same lingo as it was.

It is at its core. It just incorporated or absorbed more vocabulary and phonemes which is good, otherwise it becomes a dead static language. Also grammar conventions were incorporated after the honky 'annexation'.

Did you see the image of the landa script I posted earlier? It shows you the predecessors of many of the letters we use today. Some haven't changed much or at all. Like a lot of things about our quom, our language has rapidly and dynamically developed over the last few centuries.

The most recent thing is probably the inclusion of English grammar symbols like full stops, commas, question and exclamation marks, hyphens etc. It's all good in my eyes, as long as we never forget how to read and understand our bani and ithaasik granths etc.

Edited July 31, 2010 by dalsingh101

[SURYADEV]

Yes also ages ago I read a bit about the Predecessors of gurmukhi on wiki too (font of all knowledge) theres a ton of info. with some good pics og panjabi characters through the ages. Ultimately, you could say that the undecipherable Harrapa/MDaro script is one of the earliest known forefathers of gurmuki. very different to the modern script.

If only you could translate that stuff , we'll value your contributions hell of a lot more! lol

Edited July 30, 2010 by jattboot

[chatanga1]

Okay, more beauts for the interested:

ਵਾਚਕ

ਇਖਤਿਆਰ

ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨ or ਪਰਮਾਨ

This one is another baffler:

ਸ਼ੂਨ੍ਯ

ekhtiaar means accept

parmaan means example.

shoonay is zero in sanskrit.

[dalsingh101]

Yes also ages ago I read a bit about the Predecessors of gurmukhi on wiki too (font of all knowledge) theres a ton of info. with some good pics og panjabi characters through the ages. Ultimately, you could say that the undecipherable Harrapa/MDaro script is one of the earliest known forefathers of gurmuki. very different to the modern script.

If only you could translate that stuff , we'll value your contributions hell of a lot more! lol

Well, firstly I'm not that clever. Secondly, I honestly believe that even if I could translate that stuff I doubt it would be as interesting as Sikh literature.

On second thoughts....hell, I'm game actually. I can do this! Have a look at my first attempt at translating Harappan text in the attachment. I think I can make a career out of this......

Edited July 30, 2010 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

You know we were talking about the development of the script (and I know I'm in danger of becoming a consummate bore if I'm not there already). I was looking at these images that are supposed to be in the hand of our Gurus and look what you notice. Both Guru Hargobind and Gobind Singh use a dot where we would normally use a khanna. Guru Har Rai doesn't seem to use even this or anything to denote a siharee either! We also have what appears to be an example of the full painti and vowel symbols in Guru Arjan Dev ji's hand.

It's curious and just shows how things really were actively being developed during the physical lifetime of the Gurus. Guru Arjan Dev seems to have been (amongst many things) not only a spiritual giant but also a linguistic and organisational genius, as well as a shaheed.

[dalsingh101]

ਵਾਚਕ - adj. signifier, signifying, showing, indicating, significative, suggestive, expressive; suff. meaning reciter or narrator as in ਕਥਾਵਾਚਕ or signifier as in ਪ੍ਰਸ਼ਨਵਾਚਕ.

ਇਖਤਿਆਰ - Authority, right, election, discretion, choice.

ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨ or ਪਰਮਾਨ - note also spelt with a ਣ as in ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣ. Authority, proof, testimony, authenticity; evidence, illustration, example, standard, measure, scale.

Edited July 31, 2010 by dalsingh101