The Sindh Story

[jaikaara]

they may preach bani..but the stress is on hindu mat...i had a chance to visist a sindhi gurdwara..it was so weird...smeone gives sermons..then someone sings ..some dance ...i dont mean disrespect ..but what i witnessed would be considered beadbi by us...never went there again...and those guys are a confused lot..all that so called sufi nonsense is too much in their head...

[dalsingh101]

No he become a sikh for spiritual reasons, and after a few years meet a sikh bibi and got married with her.

I'll tell you straight. If it's a feeling of belonging and community warmth you are after...in it's current state, this is not the religion to go for. lol

We are a prickly people, even amongst ourselves......no wait......especially amongst ourselves.

[dalsingh101]

Duplicate

Edited July 9, 2010 by dalsingh101

[tonyhp32]

Shaheediyan

So that's another Sanatan myth..Udasis and Nirmala used to do better parchar than the Singh Sabha..blah blah blah..disproved. Any other myths you've come across you want to test on the forum?

[shaheediyan]

No Tony, you are right. Using Singh Sabha statistics, authors and books, you have disproved traditional history yet again.

That our Panth is now in the pathetic state it is, removed of its martial, linguistic, artistic, progressive, musical, mystical, scholarly, charitable traditions (to name but a few) is obvioulsy no fault of Singh Sabha and their child, SGPC...

Yet, before Singh Sabha manifested - nearly all these traditions were intact....? Thankfully, some have survived, but no thanks to the reformists - luckily the pre-reformists traditions respected and kept their treasures alive, which are now making a comeback in many areas, again no thanks to the reformists. May be we need to do another Mahant hunt, and do away with all Singh Sahba/SGPC and complete the circle.... we all know history works in cycles...

You will be shocked to discover that it is not only one fairytale snaatn website which resents some of the outcomes of the reformist movement, in fact, most traditional orders have gripes with the reformists in one shape or another.

Saying that, I have never disputed Singh Sabha has good intentions, but good intentions are not free of bias, influece and manmat - their 'zeal' led to the loss of much of our Sikh culture. There were also some stars amongst the movement who I personally have great respect for like Prof Sahib Singh irrelevant of some differences on opinion.

What couldn't be changed by SS was the massive knowledge Seva Panthi/Nirmalai/Udasis had on mystical Hindu/Islamic schools - which gave them an olive branch to reach out to so many other groups, where as Singh Sabha parchaar was more along the lines of 'Sikhi' is the only way - and showing how other paths were lowly/incorrect. It is common sense who's parchaar was going to be more receptive.

All that being said, I am always open to the truth, so here is your chance, give me the names of some neutral/unbiased literature re Singh Sabha parchaar amongst non-Sikhs and I promise to read it.

[chatanga1]

That our Panth is now in the pathetic state it is, removed of its martial, linguistic, artistic, progressive, musical, mystical, scholarly, charitable traditions (to name but a few) is obvioulsy no fault of Singh Sabha and their child, SGPC...

Yet, before Singh Sabha manifested - nearly all these traditions were intact....?

actually bro, i dont think all these traditions were intact.look at the idols and prabandh of gurdwaras pre SS. There wasnt much charity going on.

i dont think the sikhs were very progressive at the time of the SS lehar. That is why IMO the lehar had such an effect amongst the Sikhs. Also it is unfair to treat the SgPC wholesale as unscholarly, as in early times of the moevment most of the gianis took their vidya from Taksal. I agree with you now, though that they do act like thickos.

But martial, linguistic, musical traditions deffo have taken a setback.

[shaheediyan]

I concede and agree, from the onset of the British Raj, the traditional orders also lapsed somewhat in parts. I also understand that SS sought to address this, the point of contention was they went hugely OTT, and for the sins of a few, punished the whole, in doing so seperated the Panth and nearly destroyed all its traditions.

[tonyhp32]

No Tony, you are right. Using Singh Sabha statistics, authors and books, you have disproved traditional history yet again.

It's not Singh Sabha statistics, it census statistics taken by the British in India. You really need to open you eyes and get rid of your blinkered views. So your traditional history has it that Nirmalas and Udasis were converting millions of Hindus? You make bold statements but never back them up with facts. Where are these millions? The impact of the Singh Sabha can be seen in the way that most Gurdwaras around the world belong to this tradition. How many Nirmala or Udasis dera remain and what is their influence. The only Nirmalas I saw when I was last in India were three guys going from house to house in the village claiming to be collecting donations for a langar organised for all the Sadhus in hardwar! Most villagers treated them as conmen but apparently there is a langar set up for sadhus by the Nirmalas.

That our Panth is now in the pathetic state it is, removed of its martial, linguistic, artistic, progressive, musical, mystical, scholarly, charitable traditions (to name but a few) is obvioulsy no fault of Singh Sabha and their child, SGPC...

Yet, before Singh Sabha manifested - nearly all these traditions were intact....? Thankfully, some have survived, but no thanks to the reformists - luckily the pre-reformists traditions respected and kept their treasures alive, which are now making a comeback in many areas, again no thanks to the reformists. May be we need to do another Mahant hunt, and do away with all Singh Sahba/SGPC and complete the circle.... we all know history works in cycles...

Your fairy stories really are getting quite boring. So Punjab was a utopia before the Singh Sabha turned up and infected with blah blah victorian protestant values, lack of musical taste, not knowing any of the traditional languages trampled down this uptopia! Look at the state of Sikhi even at the height of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, he acted more as a Punjabi ruler than a Sikh ruler. This was also the case of the Malwa Maharajas. Why didn't Maharaja Ranjit Singh change the language of the state from Persian to Punjabi? The Gurus used to send their Hukumnamas in Gurmukhi script, why did he not switchover to Gurmukhi? The Traditional orders all used Braj in Gurmukhi script so why didn't prevail of the Maharaja to support Braj or Punjabi? Many of the travellers who traversed Punjab during that time openly state that Sikhs were addicted to Opium as well as being hard drinking. Is this in line with the Rehatnamas or Gurbani? If it wasn't then you have to accept that the traditional orders had failed in a big way. As I stated in a previous post, they had a Punjab where there was no opposition to the Sikh way of life and they failed miserably. The Singh Sabha had to deal with not just opposition from Muslims and Hindus but also these traditional orders and their confused Sikh followers and the Singh Sabha was very successful. I assume that you consider Sikhism to be a religion seperate from Hinduism, then why is it that 578,000 Sikhs listed themselves as Hindu-Sikhs and not just Sikhs? After the Singh Sabha movement only a few thousand still considered themselves as Hindu-Sikhs.

What couldn't be changed by SS was the massive knowledge Seva Panthi/Nirmalai/Udasis had on mystical Hindu/Islamic schools - which gave them an olive branch to reach out to so many other groups, where as Singh Sabha parchaar was more along the lines of 'Sikhi' is the only way - and showing how other paths were lowly/incorrect. It is common sense who's parchaar was going to be more receptive.

Where these traditional orders are successful was to confuse the distinction between Sikh and Hindu. The only legacy these orders left behind was that one could matha tek at a Sufi grave in the morning, worship the devi in the afternoon, practise castism or even wear a janeo and go to the Gurdwara for Kirtan Sohila and still claim to be a Sikh! The reversion back to building Mosques and hugging those who consider us kafirs nowadays becoming the norm in Punjab is not due to the Singh Sabha parchar but because that parchar is non existent hence the traditonal bukwas masked as traditional orders making a comeback.

[amardeep]

I think the current nirmalas and nihangs (dont know much about udasis) are currently living on the glory of their forefathers, not bringing much to this world themselves.

[chatanga1]

I think the current nirmalas and nihangs (dont know much about udasis) are currently living on the glory of their forefathers, not bringing much to this world themselves.

this isnt just the one you list bro. even the sgpc, akali dal, akal takht are guilty of this. Sometimes i feel most sikhs are guilty of this.

Tony, you make some excellent points in your post.

Could it not be that the traditional samprdayes not wishing to make any necessary changes in their work opted to leave the panth rather than being forced to leave?

[Mithar]

Tony, you make some excellent points in your post.

Totally agree with you chatanga.

As always Tony Jee, you are great!!

[tonyhp32]

I think the current nirmalas and nihangs (dont know much about udasis) are currently living on the glory of their forefathers, not bringing much to this world themselves.

There isn't really much they can do to be fair. The Nirmalas missed their chance to be an active missionary wing of Sikhism and using their Sanskrit and Braj skills to bring Sikhi to the Hindus outside of Punjab. If not being missionaries they could still have acted as a force inculating a respect for Sikhism anongst the Hindus. But they failed miserably. The fact that they are called 'Nirmala' which is Sanskrit for 'pure' same as Khalsa is Persian for 'pure' should not be lost on us. Their tradition claims that they were given Amrit by Guru Gobind Singh yet not many keep the Rehat or have the 5 Ks. Rather than do parchar of Sikhism they have virtually become Hindus having knowledge of Guru Granth Sahib. Compare this with the Sewapanthis who were originally Sehajdhari and yet are nowadays practically all Keshdhari. The Nirmalas went the opposite direction. I am sure the Nirmalas must be surprised that after being defeated by the Singh Sabha some kids in the UK seem to think that they were the best thing since sliced bread!

The same is the case of the Nihangs. They have also failed in their duties assigned to them according to their tradition. Whilst they call themselves Guru Ki ladli fauj, or Dal Panth and such 96 Crore etc they have failed miserably since 1984.

Udasis have always been outside the Panth. It's a recent thing that some dodgy websites have tried to hoodwink Sikhs that Udasis were accepted by the Gurus. In Ludhiana district the Udasis had quite a few large deras and most of them degenerated when the Mahant in charge would get married and seperate some of the Dera into his family quarters and then his sons would then fight over the inheritance as if it was their family Dera.

[tonyhp32]

this isnt just the one you list bro. even the sgpc, akali dal, akal takht are guilty of this. Sometimes i feel most sikhs are guilty of this.

Tony, you make some excellent points in your post.

Could it not be that the traditional samprdayes not wishing to make any necessary changes in their work opted to leave the panth rather than being forced to leave?

I wouldn't think a tradition which as many would have us believe had deep roots in Sikhi could easily be thrown out of the Panth. Although some would have us believe that the Singh Sabha had strong support from the British whereas the Sanatanists were on their own. The opposite is true in many ways. The Sanatanists had the Bedis descended from Guru Nanak on their side. They also had the support of most of the Maharajas and the landed class. Yet they lost the battle. The survive the battle and emerge victorious, all the Sanatanists had to do was to show that their lifestyle was in accord with the Guru Granth Sahib. Udasis could not do so because they had idols installed with the Guru Granth Sahib. Since most Sikhs believed in the Sehajdhari to Amritdhari route then it would be difficult to accept Sadhs with shaven heads as a part of the Panth. Especially when the stories of Sikh Shaheeds accepting martyrdom rather than losing their Kesh were current in the Punjab.

To accept the Niddar/Shastarvidya.com version of history we have to accept that between 1870 to 1920 a vast majority of Sikhs actively accepted a false version of Sikhism and rejected the true version of Sikhism. That's the reason for my constant reference to sanatanist 'history' as fairy stories. You have to be a believer in such stories to accept the sanatanist line.

In fact if you look at it logically it would have been easier for the traditional sampardhas to throw the Singh Sabha out the Panth given that they could claim an ancient origin whereas (as dodgy websites also now claim) the Singh Sabha could be shown to be a novelty and British inspired. But what the Singh Sabha did was to test the lifestyle and beliefs of these sampardas against Gurbani and hence showed them to be Hindu in belief and not ideal Sikhs according to the rehat.

It's a moot point whether they themselves took the active step to leave the Panth or whether the Singh Sabha threw them out. As the Singh Sabha was a parchar organisation then their aim would have been to 'Sikhify' them. There were a few Nirmalas who actively supported the Singh Sabha so they didn't all become Hindus or hide in their Deras.

As for SGPC and Akali Dal, I believe the rot is temporary caused by Badal. Pre-Badal the SGPC was a great organisation and very forward thinking. In the 1940's they even passed a resolution in support of a Sikh state. No doubt either in the forthcoming or any future elections an anti-Badal front will take control of the SGPC. Whereas the Singh Sabha successor organisation can be reformed, the so-called traditional samaprdhas are unfortunately beyond hope.

[amardeep]

Tony: In the Sikh history from persian sources there is a mentioning of the udasis being followers of Sikhism. I dont have the book at present but its in the short chapters that deal with Guru Gobind Singh or the sikhs in general...

[dalsingh101]

But martial, linguistic, musical traditions deffo have taken a setback.

I disagree with your assessment on the state of linguistics...remember when Trumph wrote his book, before SS lehar, he pretty much claimed that hardly any Sikhs even understand the SGGS ji and that it was 'dark' and impenetrable.

Today we have quality dictionaries, online ones, dictionaries of the words used in SGGS ji. Punjabi University is doing a good job on the lexicography front.

The only problem is that Panjabis have continued to be pendu folk with no interest in developing language skills beyond immediate communication needs with other grunts. Forget picking up a kitaab to better oneself.

But yes, martially and musically, we are stuck in ruts. The former is not a place to be, for a so called 'martial race'.

[dalsingh101]

In fact if you look at it logically it would have been easier for the traditional sampardhas to throw the Singh Sabha out the Panth given that they could claim an ancient origin whereas (as dodgy websites also now claim) the Singh Sabha could be shown to be a novelty and British inspired. But what the Singh Sabha did was to test the lifestyle and beliefs of these sampardas against Gurbani and hence showed them to be Hindu in belief and not ideal Sikhs according to the rehat.

I think they also did pioneering work in presenting Sikhi through a post enlightenment lens. They may not have done this perfectly at all times but their threads are likely to be ones we will need to pick up on to present Sikhi to future generations who are very likely to be influenced by the western paradign through globalisation, wherever they are. In a way, SS did the groundwork for us.

They more than anyone else, have helped develop our itihaas into a rational, evidence based discipline, rather than one steeped in ancient Indic mythology.

[amardeep]

Interesting to notice how people members on SA are becoming pro-singh sabha, while on SS people are becoming more and more pro-'sanatan'

Edited July 9, 2010 by amardeep

[SURYADEV]

Interesting to notice how people members on SA are becoming pro-singh sabha, while on SS people are becoming more and more pro-'sanatan'

yep and it seems we are starting to go for the tu tu me me ; my dads better than ur dad craaaap.

I'd say its all the ekta thats coming into the kuom. Got to be good thing, even if the ekta is down in the gutter.

[chatanga1]

I concede and agree, from the onset of the British Raj, the traditional orders also lapsed somewhat in parts.

from the onset of british raj? no. Well before the brits got anywhere near Satluj the rot had started, in that various misls were fighting with each other, rather than focusing on strenghtening dal panth. There was no brotherhood at the time,just marriages of convenience. And the maya of the jagirs given by Mah. Ranjit SIngh was too tempting for the Udasis to resist.

Edited July 10, 2010 by chatanga1

[chatanga1]

I disagree with your assessment on the state of linguistics...remember when Trumph wrote his book, before SS lehar, he pretty much claimed that hardly any Sikhs even understand the SGGS ji and that it was 'dark' and impenetrable.

Today we have quality dictionaries, online ones, dictionaries of the words used in SGGS ji. Punjabi University is doing a good job on the lexicography front.

bro, the point i made in linguistics was at the lack of knowledge of persian, and sanskrit amongst Sikh scholars today.

the other things you mention is progress in the world, and is not specific to Sikhs ie online dictionaries, libraries.

I believe that Udasis have always been part of the panth, from the original Udasi, Guru Nanak Dev Ji, upto those who uphold the true ideals of the samprdaye today. But sadly i dont beleive that the ones who call themselves Udasis today beleive in the mat of Guru Nanak Dev Ji amymore.

Edited July 10, 2010 by chatanga1

[dalsingh101]

bro, the point i made in linguistics was at the lack of knowledge of persian, and sanskrit amongst Sikh scholars today.

I concede bro, we are unacceptably lame in understanding much our own literature like Bhai Gurdas's kabits and other stuff in Brij Bhasha, plus Persian stuff like Bhai Nand Lal's work.

Quom is a bit on the dumbass side. Too many pendus and not enough real intellectuals. Plus no one to really patronise upcoming geniuses. We are being wasted. You would have thought SGPC could throw a few rupees in that direction, those to55ers.

[amardeep]

I was told that in the US, persian and sanskrit/brij basha is a compulsary part of the curriculum during sikh studies at university level

[dalsingh101]

If so, that is probably the influence of Narinder Kapany. Who actually funds many of the uni seats from what I understand.

Again, look at the SGPC, it does nothing. It is essentially a fat greedy farmer's club now.

Edited July 10, 2010 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

If so, that is probably the influence of Narinder Kapany. Who actually funds many of the uni seats from what I understand.

Again, look at the SGPC, it does nothing. It is essentially a fat greedy farmer's club now.

i dont think all of them are farmers. there are Lubanas, and Aroras etc amongst them. Jagiro was of Lubana community.

but it is a more of a club though, not even a good kind like the freemasons, or the chocolatey biskwit type either.

[dalsingh101]

Well, at least we know what we have to look forward to in future.....another 30 years+ of Badal Junior....

yippeeee....