Bhai Vir Singh On Devi

[singh2]

At the end of chandi charitra part 1, it is siva. Literally Siva wife of shiv ji i.e. Durga. But in shabad " Deh Siva bar---" it is a metaphor for akal purakh.

Edited November 24, 2010 by singh2

[jaikaara]

thats great ! i dont know this, thanks for the explanation, i have no issues since the element is understood .

[HarjasDevi]

Jaikaara writes:

What makes you think that Dasmesh pita expanded the bhakti style practice and incorporated raj joga?

Hi, the answer is starring you all right in front of the face. But you are so close to it and so uneducated in Hindu Mat and sectarian differences that you can't see so many obvious things. In this case, I can't resist to explain, although I fully expect cheap shots, assorted hostile abuse and more.

Sikhi didn't CHANGE from Vaishno influence to Raj Jog influence. You smart guys simply are missing an important piece (several actually) of the historical puzzle. SIKHI originates from the sect known as....Vaishnav Sehajiyas!

Hi, thanks, you can thank me for pointing your absurd gymnastic intellectual exercise in the proper direction. And BTW, Bhai Vir Singh is a complete English brainwashed idiot. The Tantras teach that Kali is an incarnation of Krishna and most Shakta poetry is basically a praise of Krishna and Kali.

Ok wait....some proof since you guys ALWAYS accuse me of inventing facts simply because you do not RECOGNIZE any...

Baul (Bengali: বাউল, Hindi: बाऊल) are a group of mystic minstrels from Bengal. Bauls constitute both a syncretic religious sect and a musical tradition. Bauls are a very heterogeneous group, with many different subsects, but their membership mainly consists of Vaishnava Hindus and Sufi Muslims.^[1][2] They can often be identified by their distinctive clothes and musical instruments. Not much is known of their origin, as little documentation took prior to the 20th century, however poet laureate Rabindranath Tagore works and Rabindra Sangeet has had deep influence on its music, Baul Gaan (song) often accompnied by Gopiyantro or Ektara.^[3][4]

The origin of the word is Baul is debated. Some modern scholars, like Shashibhusan Das Gupta have suggested that it may be derived either from Sanskrit word vatula, which means (divinely inspired) insane or from vyakula, which means impatiently eager and both of these derivations are consistent with the modern sense of the word, which denotes the inspired people with an ecstatic eagerness for a spiritual life, where a person can realise his union with the eternal beloved - the Maner Manush (the man of the heart)^[6]

The origin of Bauls is not known to any great degree of accuracy, but the word Baul has appeared in Bengali texts as old as the 15th century. The word is found in the Chaitanya-bhagavata of Vrindavanadas as well as in the Chaitanya Charitamrita of Krishnadas Kaviraj.^[7] Some scholars, however, maintain that it is not clear when the word took its sectarian significance, as opposed to a synonym for the word mad. The beginning of the Baul movement was attributed to Birbhadra, the son of Vaishnavite saint Nityananda, or alternatively to the 8th century Persian minstrels called Ba'al. Bauls are a part of the culture of rural Bengal. Whatever their origin, Baul thought has mixed elements of Tantra, Sufi Islam, Vaishnavism and Buddhism. They are thought to have been influenced by the Hindu tantric sect of the Kartabhajas as well as Tantric Buddhist schools like the Sahajia. Some scholars find traces of these thoughts in the ancient practices of Yoga as well as the Charyapadas, which are Buddhist hymns that are the first known example of written Bengali. The Bauls themselves attribute the lack of historical records of themselves to their reluctance of leaving a trace behind...

The music of the Bauls, Baul Sangeet, is a particular type of folk song. It carries influences of Hindu bhakti movements as well as the suphi, a form of Sufi song mediated by many thousand miles of cultural intermixing, exemplified by the songs of Kabir, for instance. Their music represents a long heritage of preaching mysticism through songs in Bengal, like Shahebdhoni or Bolahadi sects.

Bauls use a number of musical instruments to embellish their compositions. The "ektara" is a one-stringed “plucked drum” drone instrument, and by far the most common instrument used by a Baul singer. It is carved from the epicarp of a gourd, and made of bamboo and goatskin. Other commonly used musical instruments include the dotara, This is a long-necked fretless lute. While the name literally means “two stringed” it usually has four metal strings (steel or brass); the dugi, a small hand-held earthen drum; percussion instruments like dhol and khol; small cymbals called "kartal" and "mandira" and the bamboo flute. Baul

Sahaja (Sanskrit: sahaja; Devanagari: सहज)^[1] (Chinese Tzu jan; Japanese Shizen), meaning "spontaneous, natural", is a term and style of discipline of some importance in Indian spirituality and influenced by the . The origins of the word are in , a now defunct language, and Old (first attested literary usage 8th century CE). It was first used by the north Indian Tantric Buddhist master in the 8th century CE:So from spontaneity that's unique,Replete with the Buddha's perfections,Are all sentient beings born, and in it come to rest.But it is neither concrete nor abstract.The concept of a spontaneous spirituality entered Hinduism with yogis such as and influenced the through the tradition exemplified by the of Bengal, , , and , the founder of the tradition.

Sahaja is one of the four keywords of the along with , , and . Sahaja meditation and worship was prevalent in Tantric traditions common to and in Bengal as early as the 8th–9th centuries.

Now, before you all accuse me of claiming Sikhism is actually based on the lurid accounts of the enemies and detractors of the Sahajiya heresies, allow me to explain in context. Vaishnav sampraday underwent reform movement in the appearance of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu who accepted women, mlecch born and shudra castes to full brahmana initiation. This reform movement was very popular and reflected in the bani of the Vaishnav Bhatts and Bhagats. And so while the origin of the particular sect of Vaishnavism here is Ramanujacharya it is also somewhat influenced by the Bengali Bhakti movement of Gaudiya Math and the Baul Bhaktas. Notably the origin of the Nanakian concepts of the God Parabrahm as being both Nirgun AND sargun originates with Ramanujacharya and the Achintya Bheda Abheda which explains the sectarian distinction between strict Dvaita of traditional Vaishnavism and the impersonalist Advaita of Shankaracharya and actually blends them to unite both the Upanishadic and Puranic thought.

This reform movement was diametrically opposed by the brahmin-by-birth Sampradayas, and explains the context of the brahminical corrections of Gurbani. On the other hand, certain teachings and practices and blending of ideologies occurring in the Gurbani was bitterly opposed by the brahmin-by-birth groups. Those elements such as keeping hair, eating meat, taking intoxicants, hunting, non-brahmachari grihastha/married householder ashrama, and especially...multiple wives, blending the teachings of the Mayavadis/impersonalists (namely Buddhists but also members of the Shankaracharya, and the ideological offshoots including almost the entire Kashmiri territory, the Nath Shaiva yogis and their kundalini siddha traditions). So the strict, brahmin-by-birth casteist religionists with the strict sannyasi emphasis would have rejected and demonized outright Guru Nanak Dev Ji's entire movement. And how Sikhi evolved simply shows the evidence of the ideological and cultural influences. It is no accident that Kabirpanthis have the closest association with the Baul Bhakti movement. And seen from this context, the Namdhari kuka tradition is particularly similar. Just as there are similarities between the Nath yogis pranayam and the Sufi Dhikr and the Sikh's Naam Abhiyas sas giras simran techniques. The fact that the sole Sufi whose bani appears in Gurbani, Baba Farid happened to be a Sehajiya Sufi is also telling.

One interesting blend between the Vaishnav sampraday and the Nath Yogi tradition is traditional Vaishnavas use tulasi malas, and Shaivas such as the Nath Sampradaya use Rudraksha malas. In the relics of Guru Nanak preserved by the Sodhi family in Guru Har Sahai is a rudraksha bead from Guru Nanak's mala and a coin showing the image of Krishna. They also have a Vaishnav Shaligram Sila belonging to Guru Nanak Dev showing clear origination in some kind of Vaishnav Sehajiya sect as perhaps the form of Hinduism Guruji was born into. This also explains the refusal of the janeo. First, brahmins do not only receive janeo, and it makes no sense that guru Nanak as a kshatriya would receive or refuse a brahmin janeo. But all three varnas: brahmin, kshatriya and vaisha receive janeo at different ages. It is the shudra caste which are refused the janeo....with the exception of the reform movement of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu who gave brahmana initiation to all the refused classes including women, such as Mirabai, born mlecchas such as Muslim born Sant Kabir and shudra castes such as Ravidas. By Guru Nanak's refusal of janeo is no refusal of brahminism or Hinduism. It may be a refusal of a certain sectarian mindset within traditional Vaishnavism and an embracing of the bhakti Sant reform movement's radical inclusive teachings.

So look here:

Original handwritten Pothi, original mala, padam and shaligram belonging to Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji. YES, Shaligram kept in Sodhi family, Guru Harsahai.

, (शिल in Devanagari, śila in refers to a () representation of , in the form of a spherical, usually black-coloured stone found in the sacred river . They are more often referred to as Shaligram Shilas, with Shila being the shortened version. The word Sila translates simply to 'stone' and Shaligram is a less well-known name of Vishnu. The origin of the name is traced to a remote village in where Vishnu is known by the name of Shaligraman...

Although Hinduism is commonly represented by such religious , is equally represented with such abstract symbols of God such as the . Moreover, Hindus have found it easier to focus on anthropmorphic icons, because Lord said in the , Chapter 12, Verse 5, that it is much more difficult to focus on God as the unmanifested than God with form, due to human beings having the need to perceive via the senses.

The ideological concept of Shunya/Sunn is decidedly Mayavadic and has strong influence from Buddhism. Such a concept would never appear in strict Vaishnav sampradaya.

So also the concept of nirvana relates to the Mayavadist schools of Buddhism and Shankaracharya's Advaita. the fact that these concepts occur in gurbani which clearly have a Dvaitic Vaishnav philosophical undercurrent in such places as:

Is a tipoff that we are evaluating one of the heretical sects of Vaishnaism and most telling:

The unification of the concept of sehaj with the keynote emphasis on Vaishnav sampradaya which is japa of Hari Nama.

So the ideological schools and their influences are clearly recognizable in Gurbani. The fact remains the guru Sahibaan clearly distinguished their own unique interpretation and elucidated their own teachings. Nonetheless, Gurmat originated within a historical and philosophical context which preceded it and can't realistically be denied.

outside Bengal, in the medieval period...

After Caitanya some of Sehajiya and Tantrics, became influential and founded some subgroups. Their influence and injection of some personal ideas, diluted the gravity and depth of the original philosophy of Caitanya in some areas. Sehajiyas were divided and subdivided into many branches, such as Aul, Baul, Sai, Daravesh, and Sehajiya."

..

In the Brihat Tantra Sara, a large compilation of tantrik rites,Krishna appears as a fully-flowered tantrika devata, with his own, , mantra and or ritual which uses this yantra (click on this image for full size yantra).In the hexagon in the centre of the yantra, the following words appear: Krishnaya Govindaya Klim sadhya Gopijanavallabhaya Svaha."

It's interesting to note the tantric association between the Das Mahavidyas of Devi and the Das Avtaray of Vaishnavism. I do believe this esoteric lore within Sanatana Dharma is the basis and origin for the Baishno and Devi Shaiv/Shakt Mat found blended in Gurmat philosophy. As to the Aryan invasion and other nonsense and utter ignorance of Bhai Vir Singh's writing, heh, well, to each his own.

[dalsingh101]

Harjas

Do you really expect anyone to take your post seriously?

All these years and you still haven't learned the art of composing a concise post and you still run riot with colour like an infant with a new pack of crayons.

[Kaljug]

Harjas

Do you really expect anyone to take your post seriously?

All these years and you still haven't learned the art of composing a concise post and you still run riot with colour like an infant with a new pack of crayons.

That foot juice she's been drinking from her gooroo must be some seriously potent stuff. Kind of like watching a kid on acid and speed trying to explain why she thinks superman is really, really cool and much better than spiderman.

A pox upon the house of whoever invited her back.

K.

[HarjasDevi]

Harjas

Do you really expect anyone to take your post seriously?

All these years and you still haven't learned the art of composing a concise post and you still run riot with colour like an infant with a new pack of crayons.

After receiving 16 death threats and rudest bullying hate campaign from people with the name of Singh? Naw... I do not expect very much from any of you, sadly.

But if you simply do the independent research, I have honestly pointed you all in the right direction which is the understanding that Sikhism actually developed it's own philosophy out of a syncretism of the existing philosophies of the day and reflects regional and sectarian influences. It's just that I saw this post sincerely struggling to relate the concepts of Shakt Devi and Vaishno background. I wanted to help. That anyone would evaluate the concepts and historicity I have referred to without degenerating like dirty minded nindaks into personal slurs and defamation? Haha, I expected well as much and worse even. Since I have repudiated Sikhism... and am simply a "Hindu" there is really no need for your abusive tone any longer. I have shared an opinion based on studies. Do the studies for yourselves and hate on someone who poses a "real" threat to you, instead of some lady on the internet with a Hindu Mat background sharing a historical opinion.

Too bad really if you think a materialistic history written clearly to appease British Lords offers any kind of authentic or even symbolic insight into how Shri Dasam Granth bani relates to Shri Adi Guru Granth bani as it is clear there was a development of sorts reflecting both the benign appearance of Das Avtaray as well as what the Buddhi people call Heruka deities, or wrathful deities, or perhaps, the Left hand tantric Marg more suited to becoming a destructive military force than an ahimsa based sant sampraday.

But, oh well, keep reading fluff like this:

"It should also be remembered that when Shivji’s wife is being described, it is as the daughter of the Aryan king of Kanakla, Dakya Prajapati. From this we can infer that the gentle devi* is the daughter of Aryan thought and the fearsome devi was the black mother figure of the original darked hued inhabitants [of India]. The Himalayas have also been considered to be Parbati’s father and from this we can correctly say that the Himalayan daughter is the Aryan devi and that the ‘Kali’ resident in the Vindhyachal mountains is the devi of the ancient, true residents [of India].

When the Aryan folk mixed with the real races [of the region], those people were eclipsed by Vedic thought so that their modes of worship came to be mixed together."

Hehe, yeah, real "scholarship" there. Okay, carry on then taking it seriously. You might do better to consider the influences of the Nath Yogis on the tantric kundalini yoga system which explains the nine gates and the dasam duar as well as the Maha Mantra NAAM of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the Raag kirtan of the Vaishnav and Sufi Bauls a little more closely if you ever want to come anywhere near the actual "truth" of it.

P.S. And do not care how many rude insults I receive from prejudiced people so called "Singh" who are so afraid of exploring alternate philosophical and historical viewpoints they degenerate into insulting and threatening petty 5 year olds because they can't deal with the actual "issues." But I did not show up here to annoy you, so I leave you with what I wrote. Ignore at your leisure~

And keep reading the fluff stuff about inferior dark skinned races, barbaric Kali Thuggees and "glorious" white civilized Ayans. LOL. Yes, indeedy! Kali is black in color, and so is Krishna, sharing the bija mantras because all colors merge into black and it reflects the nirgun transcendental nature of that which has superceded the creation and the ordinary. Hence to the Vaishnavas, Bhagavan Krishna represents the Totality of the Parabrahm, and to the Shaktas Mata Bhavani Maha Maya represents the feminine expression of the same Totality which is AKAL, beyond the Kali time of material modes of nature.

"Just as all colors disappear in black, so all names and forms disappear in her"

~Mahanirvana Tantra

"Her three eyes represent past, present, and future, — the three modes of time — an attribute that lies in the very name Kali ('Kala' in Sanskrit means time). The eminent translator of Tantrik texts, Sir John Woodroffe in Garland of Letters, writes, "Kali is so called because She devours Kala (Time) and then resumes Her own dark formlessness."Kali's proximity to cremation grounds where the five elements or "Pancha Mahabhuta" come together, and all worldly attachments are absolved, again point to the cycle of birth and death." Kali: The Dark Mother

"Kali as Kundalini is also a Vedic idea - Kali as Speech or Vak resides in the Muladhara Chakra as Brahma or Brahmanaspati in later times, showing the Vedas or Speech. The female form of Brahma is Saraswati, who is also called Sarparajini, the 'Serpent Queen', as Kundalinishakti is the Nagini (female Serpent). Saraswati is also clearly Kundalini in the Veda (Rig.VI.61.11-12)." KALI AS THE VEDIC LANGUAGE

ਨਾਭਿ ਕਮਲ ਤੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਉਪਜੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੜਹਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਕੰਠਿ ਸਵਾਰਿ ॥

naabh kamal thae brehamaa oupajae baedh parrehi mukh kanth savaar ||

From the lotus of Vishnu's navel, Brahma was born; He chanted the Vedas with a melodious voice.

~SGGS Ji ang 489

---------------------------------

ਨਾਭਿ ਪਵਨੁ ਘਰਿ ਆਸਣਿ ਬੈਸੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਖੋਜਤ ਤਤੁ ਲਹੈ ॥

naabh pavan ghar aasan baisai guramukh khojath thath lehai ||

The breath is seated in the home of the navel; the Gurmukh searches, and finds the essence of reality.

~SGGS Ji ang 945

Kali as Shakti represents the power of Vakhia and Mantra which begins with the breath, She is the eternal bija of creation power as well as destructive power. She is Bhadrakali as well as Maha Kal. And so She is symbolically related to the power of NAAM and the Primal NADA.

ਕੁੰਡਲਨੀ

ਸੁਰਝੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦ ਗੁਰੂ ਮੁਖਿ ਮਚਾ ॥

kunddalanee

surajhee sathasangath paramaanandh guroo mukh machaa ||

कुंडलनी सुरझी सतसंगति परमानंद गुरू मुखि मचा ॥

The Kundalini rises in the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation; through the Word of the Guru, they enjoy the Lord of Supreme Bliss.

~SGGS Ji ang 1402

Various explanations of the word "param brahma" are given in the scriptures. For example, the Vishnu Purana declares:

"The wise know that the word 'param brahma' means 'He who is the greatest' and 'He who nourishes and protects all living entities'".

The Gautamiya Tantra also gives the following explanation of the word "parambrahma":

"The word 'krs' means 'eternal transcendental existence' and 'na' means 'spiritual pleasure'.

These two syllables, meaning eternal existence and spiritual pleasure, are joined to become the word 'Krishna', the name of the parambrahma...

"Durga is the supreme goddess. She is an incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. She is the transcendental potency of the Lord. She is manifested from the form of Lord Maha-Vishnu.

"Simply by understanding her one immediately attains the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is not otherwise.

"She is identical with Gokula's queen Shri Radha, who possesses a great treasure of love for Krishna. By her grace the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all living entities, is easily understood.

"She is the potency of personified devotional service. She worships Her beloved Supreme Lord. Because She is understood only with great difficulty, the saintly devotees call her "durga" (difficult to understand). She is the personal potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and she is always filled with the nectar of love for Him.

"From her is manifested the maha-maya potency, the controller of all conditioned souls, who covers them with illusion. By this maha-maya potency the residents of the entire world are bewildered into thinking themselves identical with their external material bodies."

In the Sammohana Tantra, Durga herself declares:

"I am Durga. I possess all virtues. I am not different from Shri Radha, the eternal, supreme goddess of fortune."

In this way the word "durga" is explained. In this verse of Brahma-samhita the words "premananda" and "mahananda" refer to the fullest development of transcendental bliss. "Jyoti-rupena" means "self-manifested", and "manuna" means "by the mantra". The mantra is accompanied by the bija-syllable (kama-bijena sangatam). The kama-bija syllable in this mantra elaborately described in another passage where the independence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is explained." Shrila Jiva Goswami’s Brahma-samhita Commentary

The relationships between these concepts and the symbolism I have described is not idiotic mental gymnastics seeking to politically please goray masters and some racist paradigm justifying exploitation of a colonial vassal. These are well established spiritual principles grounded in Vedic and Shastric and Tantric traditions. They are not even my own interpretation, but sharing a historical background in Hindu Mat to help you better understand the Shastric and Upanishadic background of these stories and symbols within own Gurmat. All any of you have to do is RESEARCH for yourselves. But you seem so averse to Hindu Mat sources, even as these philosophies and symbolism originates from that source, you still prefer the Anglicized corrupted interpretations. What shoddy scholarship!

Anyway, I'm done explaining what you don't even care to hear. You can trash Devi as some kind of primitive, inferior black race handmaid of white Masters if it suits your political perogatives. Maybe these concepts are safer if you water them down with such ignorant distortions. You can well imagine what sort of understanding you derive from it.

Haribol!

[jaikaara]

harjas kaur ji, it seems u dont say things , you just pour them and unfortunately we are sikhs, we r learners not scholars like you in hindu mat or any mat.

if u dont mind try saying things, its like if someone asks you for a cup of tea you are pouring the entire kettle into the cup.

how do you expect anyone to react when one is poured over with your 'intelligensia' ?

and again you are doing this with sikhs who cannot take that much.

so try not to pour things since when a kettle is overturned in a cup one cannot be expected to still sit there and sip from the cup .

[HarjasDevi]

"That foot juice she's been drinking from her gooroo must be some seriously potent stuff."

Yes the kind that you should be drinking to give you humility and show even a modicum of respect for your own purataan Gursikhi tradition. By disrespecting the tradition you disrespect own heritage. Foolish boy! But what can one expect from someone who foot worships the goray culture instead.

ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਣ ਧੋਇ ਧੋਇ ਪੀਵਾ ॥੧॥

gur kae charan dhhoe dhhoe peevaa ||1||

I wash the Guru's Feet, and drink in this water. ||1||

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਰੇਣੁ ਨਿਤ ਮਜਨੁ ਕਰਉ ॥

gur kee raen nith majan karo ||

I take my daily bath in the dust of the Guru's Feet.

ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਲੁ ਹਰਉ ॥੨॥

janam janam kee houmai mal haro ||2||

The egotistical filth of countless incarnations is washed off. ||2||

~SGGS Ji ang 239

[amardeep]

I have shared an opinion based on studies.

With all due respect bhenji but you are not studying. You already have your conclusion before hand and then just pick and choose whatever suits your conclusion. This is not valid research.

[Kaljug]

Yes the kind that you should be drinking to give you humility and show even a modicum of respect for your own purataan Gursikhi tradition. By disrespecting the tradition you disrespect own heritage. Foolish boy! But what can one expect from someone who foot worships the goray culture instead.

ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਣ ਧੋਇ ਧੋਇ ਪੀਵਾ ॥੧॥

gur kae charan dhhoe dhhoe peevaa ||1||

I wash the Guru's Feet, and drink in this water. ||1||

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਰੇਣੁ ਨਿਤ ਮਜਨੁ ਕਰਉ ॥

gur kee raen nith majan karo ||

I take my daily bath in the dust of the Guru's Feet.

ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਲੁ ਹਰਉ ॥੨॥

janam janam kee houmai mal haro ||2||

The egotistical filth of countless incarnations is washed off. ||2||

~SGGS Ji ang 239

Yes, quote some Gurbani to make you feel better about your own ridiculous religious confusion.

There is one Satguru in this Kal Yuga, and it ain't your "devi" with the hugging fetish.

I just want you to know that I find the bilge you spew and mistake for real learning wonderfully entertaining. It is so clear that your one paltry "mystical" experience has unhinged your mind to such a degree that, years later, you are still repeating the same claptrap over and over again like a broken record in a garbled tongue, spun by a madman.

You are in the same position that you were years ago, nothing has changed in your avastha and you are still completely ruled by your own haumai. Tell me, in the time that you were away, have you learned Gurmukhi - or even Sanskrit - or are you still too egotistical and lazy to learn?

I often use you as an example of the dangers of having a basic and simple "spiritual visions" that any fool can have with a little practice and not being able to let them go to experience a deeper truth.

Ten years from now, you will be exactly the same person you are now, writing the same longwinded, rambling, meaningless posts.

K.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Kaljug

[jaikaara]

pehen ji , here i belive people are bearing with you since they want to see you in a better position, so why crack their brains and 'teach' them ? there is so much to learn, havea good ear first than a good tongue

[amardeep]

Harjas Kaur:

A simple question. Can you name me 3 Sikh scholars for the past 300 years who held the same view on Sikhi as you do?

[jaikaara]

thats harjas kaur , harjas devi and above all harjas behen ji !

[HarjasDevi]

Harjas Kaur:

A simple question. Can you name me 3 Sikh scholars for the past 300 years who held the same view on Sikhi as you do?

Since I am a Hindu, I do not care. I am only presenting a HINDU viewpoint and sharing a HINDU Mat perspective on the REFERENCES and CONCEPTS derivative from ANCIENT Hindu philosophical sources and traditions which appear in Sikh Guru bani. So why do any of you "care" whether any "SIKH" agrees with me? These are still valid Hindu mat sources and interpretations. As to the references to association of Sikhi with Vaishnav Sehajiyas and Bauls. Yes, there are a few papers written, it was not my insight. Evaluate the references and study for yourselves if you are interested. LOL, how ridiculous you all are, falling over yourselves to spew literal anti-Hindu hate and disrespect of someone elses beliefs, practices and Guru to prove some juvenile point about ignorance and intolerance and derailing your own interesting thread because someone with a different perspective (a woman no less) DARED to post something the majority wouldn't agree with.

Childish. Typical. Yes, in 10 years perhaps you will develop the maturity and insight to realize how terribly behaved you all are, and that life is a lot simpler if you "live and let live."

You want the best for me? LOL, which of the death threats I wonder intended that? Yes, that I'm afraid do not believe. Now stop calling me back to answer challenges, as Chatanga1 did on the Raja Janaka post which brought me back, and I will kindly and happily stay away.

thats harjas kaur , harjas devi and above all harjas behen ji !

Yes, well I'm no longer Harjas Kaur, so you may all breathe a sigh of relief that the evil monster with horns is now dead. It's simply the account is under this name, and also, I will not share publicly what my new name is, you understand, death threats, harassment and anti-Hindu hatreds, and such. Ten years from now you may all reflect on how you treat people with such utter hate and disrespect chasing them far away from you, and be ashamed.

/Namaskaram

[jaikaara]

pehen ji, why do u get soooo serious its ok ! wwe respect you as a huamn being, but pls do not touture us with so much literature...plsssssssssssssss

[amardeep]

All right since you have left Sikhism then I have nothing else to say. I thought you were still considering yourself a Sikh and wondered why you were spreading this manmat in the name of Sikhism. But if you consider yourself to be hindu then God bless you and you are entitled to your interpretation of Sikhism from a hindu point of view.

[Guest zulu]

Mod Note : Guys can you please stay on topic, any more off-topic posts will be deleted and this topic will be closed.

Jah Shaka - Zulu warriorrrrrrrrrrrrr

[dalsingh101]

After receiving 16 death threats and rudest bullying hate campaign from people with the name of Singh? Naw... I do not expect very much from any of you, sadly.

Well if you had any brains then you should've been glad to wash your hands of us and found solace in your new faith.

Please spare me your crap.

I'm not interested in applying a reductionalist map on Sikhi to find out some of its formative bricks. You can't see the woods for the trees. Seriously, I'm not going to read your elongated, childishly coloured posts, so try restraining yourself (for a change).

[HarjasDevi]

And this kind of attitude from a "spiritual person."  What a joke.  You don't agree?  Then ignore or refute the points of my post.  To degenerate to name-calling and personal smears and insults just shows the kind of low caliber person you really are, when you aren't "pretending" to be some kind of 'spiritual."

[dalsingh101]

And this kind of attitude from a "spiritual person."  What a joke.  You don't agree?  Then ignore or refute the points of my post.  To degenerate to name-calling and personal smears and insults just shows the kind of low caliber person you really are, when you aren't "pretending" to be some kind of 'spiritual."

Me?

I'm not 'pretending' to be anything. I'm well aware of my own flaws. But I don't like the way you typically come into a thread and come out with outlandish claims. Anyway, you insulted a well respected figure of Sikh literature in your post, so you're hardly in a position to cry foul yourself now are you?

Why don't you refute Bhai Vir Singh's assertions as laid out under the translated section devi in Gurmat? That was the original purpose (well one of them) for doing the translation.

Keep it short and concise, don't add unnecessary pictures or multicoloured fonts. Short - okay. To the point. Just try and refute the gist of his message, no need to post singular quotes.

I found that section of Bhai Vir Singh's work to be pretty solid myself. Is Sikhi not all about worshiping the one mystical, formless Lord and not representations of specific powers that may emanate from that source? AT least that what it seemed to say to me.

And it is a valid criticism that you still haven't learned to refrain from bombarding us with way too lengthy and convoluted and multicoloured posts, despite having had years to learn not to.

I'm more than open for intelligent debate but I'm not reading a mini essay in every post. Did you even get what BVS was saying? I'm not in total agreement with what the Singh Sabha lehar did myself, that doesn't mean some of their work is not of importance and can be given a short thrift because of controversial political decisions they made regarding British colonisation.

[Mithar]

DalSingh, there is no point in even addressing her. No matter what anyone says, she has already made up her mind with her preconceived Hindutva influenced ideas. You will just waste your time.

[HarjasDevi]

Why don't you refute Bhai Vir Singh's assertions as laid out under the translated section devi in Gurmat?

I did.  I found his racist construction insulting and preposterous, arrogant pro-British toadyism.  You can re-read my refutation if you like, the one you said you wouldn't bother to read.  I refuted him soundly on the actual basis of the Hindu meanings of the dark color of Devi and Her unity with Krishna in the symbolism.

Keep it

short and concise

, don't add unnecessary pictures or multicoloured fonts.

Too petty to deserve a response.

I found that section of Bhai Vir Singh's work to be pretty solid myself. Is Sikhi not all about worshiping the one mystical, formless Lord and not representations of specific powers that may emanate from that source?  

That it springs from a fundamental misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Hindu philosophy destroys its scholarly credibility.  But it does suit a propagandistic politicized purpose.

Take the Vaishnavism which is the primary philosophy encountered in Gurbani which is contrasted with the ritualistic brahminvaad which antagonized the Vaishnav Sant Bhakti reform.

Are there any Sikhs, let alone Bhai Vir Singh who even bother to make the distinction?  Does it occur to you that the brahmin-by-birth ritualistic Hindus are castigated by Guru Sahib, and the Vaishnos are praised as true gurumukhs?  But all are swept into one condemned umbrella of brahminvaadi, Hindutva Hindus.

Stop and reflect, if you are able, that the Vaishnavs are considered a "form" of monotheism...and reflect what the implications of a faulty strawman construction to denegrate their teachings by associating with beliefs and practices they do not have and even forbid.  It destroys credibility.  There is no soundness in such a position paper.  Bhai Vir Singh has written a position paper, and it reflects his biases and mentality...which are decidedly ignorant of vaishnavism AND anti-Hindu.  After setting up the false strawman of what Hindu's are supposed to believe, he asserts the Sikh position/correction.  But since what he started with was false in the first place...it fails to deliver.

Vaishnavs don't worship the demi-gods or the partial opulences.  they RESPECT the demi-gods and partial opulences recognizing they come from the One True Divine! Who is not merely "formless" but formless as well as taking infinite variety of forms.

you still haven't learned to refrain from bombarding us 

Can't handle very much can you.  How unbecoming a Singh.

I'm more than open for intelligent debate but I'm not reading a mini essay in every post.

I wrote you one post after how long?  And you whined about what a trashy person I am and all the silly reasons why you can't bring yourself to even consider the validity of my criticisms.  Yes, that's real intelligence.

I'm not in total agreement with what the Singh Sabha lehar did myself, that doesn't mean some of their work is not of importance and can be given a short thrift because of controversial political decisions they made regarding British colonisation.

I', pointing out their flagrant propagandistic distortions of actual hindu teaching by contrasting with actual Hindu teaching.  I can't very well praise them for their anti-Hindu, anti-native Indian hate campaign now can I?

[amardeep]

I think this is the first time you made a post that made sense. Applaud for that more of those please. You made you point concise and straight to the point

[jaikaara]

pehen ji will need to understand we dont hate her nor is she unwanted , but the thing is views differ and the explanation given by her is not going to make us agree with her.

i pity her since she must have spent hours typing all this stuff and she must be feeling as if she is talking to the walls (even though she isnt but logically this is what is happening)

all that would be truth for you behen ji but please understand that we can only take references from birs, gutkas, sateeks, granths and not from you .

sikhi is sikhi and vaishnavism or hinduism or sanatan is different, the roots maybe same but the fact is the same roots have produced a different fruit.

the thought process of a khalsa and a hindu are different

[HarjasDevi]

"all that would be truth for you behen ji but please understand that we can only take references from birs, gutkas, sateeks, granths and not from you ."

And this entire post...about the racist nonsense regarding origination of Devi as black-skinned inferior native contrasted with the white skinned Arya...this is the kind of "references" you are "allowed?"  But my refutation of the same is not allowed?

I accuse you of hypocrisy and logical inconsistency!  Our thought differences do not justify disrespect!  Our differences cannot negate that historically in addressing these concepts there has been overlap and that distortions and misrepresentations do offend someone like me.  And I feel that gives me the right to interject and promote a more "credible" Vaishnav Hindu perspective.  Did I ever say anyone must agree with my opinion simply to evaluate the proper historical or philosophical context of Vaishnav theology?

What you accept as authoritative spirituality does NOT give you the right to categorically fault and misrepresent Hindu Mat the way many posts on this forum have done.  Do you think I would even be interested in Bhai Vir Singh at all if he did not write such outrageous distortions begging for honest clarification?  And I ask you also this...is this forum closed to everyone EXCEPT Khalsa Singhs?  In the past the answer was given as "no."  Perhaps that's changed.  I have a right to correctly present the Hindu Mat interpretations in the face of gross distortions.  This article and topic thread after all, is about Bhai Vir Singh's opinions of Devi in relation to britishized history more than about the actual scriptural and symbolic representations of Devi from within own Indic culture.

So my opinion on the subject is valid regardless of whether you consider it personally authoritative for your own spiritual beliefs and practice.