Marrying Your Cousin Not A Good Idea......

[ipledgeblue]

Now how does a thread about cousin marriages become a jatt bashing thread eh? Don't disrupt threads, make a thread about jatts like "Why do you have to call youself jatt, please stop!"

London Dha Jatt Jee, were you a Jatt in all your previous lifetimes? can you say for certain that you were even a Punjabi in your previous lifetimes? for all you know, you (like me) could have been a Chura or Chamar or Chandaal or Brahmin or even a Chinese man or woman? This body is very temporary which we(Soul) wear and discards like cloths. The body and the caste associated with the body will eventually become ash. Then your soul (based on it`s karmas) will get another body which for all we know might not even be a body belonging to the Jatt caste. So what use it is being proud of being Jatt? If you need to be proud, then feel proud of our Gurus, Bhagats and Shaheeds and try to emulate their extraordinary Jeevans.

With the exception of Bhagat Dhana Jee, none of the Bhagats were Jats. As a humble Sikh would you not sacrifice yourself just to get a chance to bow to the charan dhoor of Bhagat Kabir Jee (a Julaha) or Bhagat Ravidas Jee (a Chamar) or would your proud Jattness prevent you from doing that?

Were you or me sikhs in our past lives, you tell me that?!

My jattness? Look now just because I call myself a jatt doesn't mean I hate everyone else? That would be like saying that because I call myself sikh I have to hate hindus and muslims!!!

You do know most of these jatt posts on most of these threads are about people hating jatts than jatts hating other people right?

How often do you see people preaching against being Chura or Chamar or Chandaal or Brahmin or Chinese? lol no its always jatts being preached, it makes jatts feel special that they always have to be mentioned in parchar. It is like being in school, why are you telling me off all the time? But does the kid change his behaviour ever? lol

Edited June 16, 2011 by londondajatt

[ipledgeblue]

Seriously, consider sodding off to Jattworld, you'll get appreciated there by like minded pendus.

You've got a whole forum dedicated to your 'vibe'. Leave Sikh forums for the preservation and discussion of Sikh values/ideas please.

Sikhi also promotes respecting humankind, now how am I gonna get hate against jatts and people being wound up on a jatt forum? Now you can't have a sikhi forum that hates other sikhs can you?

Now let all the hatred out, there's a good boy!

[G.Kaur]

Now how does a thread about cousin marriages become a jatt bashing thread eh? Don't disrupt threads, make a thread about jatts like "Why do you have to call youself jatt, please stop!"

Were you or me sikhs in our past lives, you tell me that?!

My jattness? Look now just because I call myself a jatt doesn't mean I hate everyone else? That would be like saying that because I call myself sikh I have to hate hindus and muslims!!!

You do know most of these jatt posts on most of these threads are about people hating jatts than jatts hating other people right?

How often do you see people preaching against being Chura or Chamar or Chandaal or Brahmin or Chinese? lol no its always jatts being preached, it makes jatts feel special that they always have to be mentioned in parchar. It is like being in school, why are you telling me off all the time? But does the kid change his behaviour ever? lol

I have yet to meet a chura, chamar, chir who is proudly saying "I'm a chamar, I'm so proud of my caste, my culture, my background, I belong to a different race than you..." but I've seen several jatts with that attitude.

Edited June 17, 2011 by G.Kaur

[ipledgeblue]

I have yet to meet a chura, chamar, chir who is proudly saying "I'm a chamar, I'm so proud of my caste, my culture, my background, I belong to a different race than you..." but I've seen several jatts with that attitude.

Well I guess you haven't seen the few Ravidassia who have been on Facebook for the past few years promoting their Ravidassia quam and being separate from sikhs and being a different quam etc. There are proud chamars, there's even a putt chamara deh song video on youtube bigging themselves up.

Individuals should also believe in their own qualities and strengths, and not rely on the culture and background.

Now should they worry about themselves, or worry about others calling themselves jatts? What effect does it have for me to have this label called jatt, does it instill lack of confidence and paranoia in other people? Are labels that threatening? If I am jatt and they're not, so what? Are they not human beings? Are they not individuals just like us? Are they not proud of being human beings? What kinda khalsa gets upset over people calling themselves jatts, what kinda soldier would such a khalsa make? How can one with such feelings fight in khalsa fauj? How can one with such feelings be showing gyan from bani?

[dalsingh101]

Sikhi also promotes respecting humankind, now how am I gonna get hate against jatts and people being wound up on a jatt forum? Now you can't have a sikhi forum that hates other sikhs can you?

Now let all the hatred out, there's a good boy!

Take your danga, stick it up your arse.

Seriously, I'm the last person who'd be even remotely interested in any pro farming bullshit. There's been too much of that for too long. Take it to Jattworld.

Edited June 17, 2011 by dalsingh101

[G.Kaur]

Well I guess you haven't seen the few Ravidassia who have been on Facebook for the past few years promoting their Ravidassia quam and being separate from sikhs and being a different quam etc. There are proud chamars, there's even a putt chamara deh song video on youtube bigging themselves up.

Individuals should also believe in their own qualities and strengths, and not rely on the culture and background.

Now should they worry about themselves, or worry about others calling themselves jatts? What effect does it have for me to have this label called jatt, does it instill lack of confidence and paranoia in other people? Are labels that threatening? If I am jatt and they're not, so what? Are they not human beings? Are they not individuals just like us? Are they not proud of being human beings? What kinda khalsa gets upset over people calling themselves jatts, what kinda soldier would such a khalsa make? How can one with such feelings fight in khalsa fauj? How can one with such feelings be showing gyan from bani?

Why do you think Chamars and other people from low-caste backgrounds want to be separate from other Sikhs and have their own kaum? How do they get treated in India and outside India?

People look down on them, treat them like they are some shit on the streets, they get beaten up for sharing the same water tap with high-caste people, if they date high caste people they will throw acid on their faces and body, they get raped, killed, no one wants to eat in the same room with them, no other castes want to marry them... The list goes on. So don't you understand why they want to be a separate kaum?

Have you seen these video's on the caste system in India?

http://www.youtube.com/user/IndiaUntouched#p/u

'Untouchable' woman dies after Indian medics refuse treatment

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jcMJnBZX1buykuSncrG1Q6M0Aq9g

Talking about Giaan, aren't we as Sikhs supposed to follow and practice Sikhism and the words of our Gurus who constantly said no man should be proud of his caste? There are several Shabads about caste, and I don't think I need to post them.

[G.Kaur]

National Geographic had some very informative, interesting, eye-opening articles about the Indian caste system back in 2003. I read them in the non-English versions of the magazine, it's a shame all of them aren't online but I found these:

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0306/feature1/

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/06/0602_030602_untouchables.html

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/features/world/asia/india/untouchables-text/1

[G.Kaur]

I don't understand why a lot of our people are in total denial of all the caste crap that goes on, directly AND indirectly, in our community.

This is the same way some gore are in total denial of all the racism there is in a community. They brush it aside and are in total denial on what's going on.

We can't blame our parents' generation because a lot of them aren't much educated and they grew up in India where they have been very influenced by Indian/Punjabi culture, but what excuse do the youth outside India have?

Amritdharis asking their soon-to-be spouses directly or indirectly what caste they belong to, Amritdharis using words like "chura" and "chamar" to insult other people, Sikhs who don't want to marry other Sikhs from a low-caste background let alone eat at their houses but use them to clean their houses or the naalis on the streets or make food at weddings- So why do we blame people from low-caste backgrounds who want their own community separated from other people, people who've been oppressing them for decades?

[kdsingh80]

So why do we blame people from low-caste backgrounds who want their own community separated from other people, people who've been oppressing them for decades?

Well if they create their own Gurdwara's ,follow maryada then I don't think anyone will blame them ,but the problem is they start creating their own Religion which is ridiculous

[dalsingh101]

Well if they create their own Gurdwara's ,follow maryada then I don't think anyone will blame them ,but the problem is they start creating their own Religion which is ridiculous

What you are saying here is that they should accept second rate membership of the panth and just ignore it by keeping away from the oppressors. Can you honestly not see how much of a short sighted 'solution' that is?

Edited June 25, 2011 by dalsingh101

[kdsingh80]

What you are saying here is that they should accept second rate membership of the panth and just ignore it by keeping away from the oppressors. Can you honestly not see how much of a short sighted 'solution' that is?

So what is your solution ,finding a Bhagat of your caste and then create a Religion Which has no history and base?

Also How creating a separate Ravidassia Religion will change social dynamics? Infact it will aggravate the situation as the Sikhs which have soft corner for them also go against them.

And how will they gain Political acceptance as India do not recognise these new religions.According to GOI they will be considered as Hindu's .If they really want to fight oppression then they will have to fight it within Panth O/W they can't do anything.Many Lower castes in India embraced Budhism,christianity etc but there social status hardly got uplifted .Also I want to know why this Ravidassia movement is only emerging in Punjab only? What they are doing it other states of India to uplift the lower castes

The upper caste Sikhs who discriminate lower caste are wrong but those lower caste which are creating new religions are also not doing any good .Two wrongs don't make a right

[dalsingh101]

So what is your solution ,finding a Bhagat of your caste and then create a Religion Which has no history and base?

Also How creating a separate Ravidassia Religion will change social dynamics? Infact it will aggravate the situation as the Sikhs which have soft corner for them also go against them.

How long did people expect them to continue bearing the brunt of discrimination without giving up on the faith? By the sounds of it, you appear to have expected them to do so indefinitely??

The upper caste Sikhs who discriminate lower caste are wrong but those lower caste which are creating new religions are also not doing any good .Two wrongs don't make a right

At least have the commonsense to see the cause and effect relationship here. Don't blame the effect - it's the cause that makes it happen.

Anyway you're Indian so you probably will have great difficulty seeing beyond these types of frameworks as they are normal/natural to your frame of reference.

Edited June 25, 2011 by dalsingh101

[SikhKhoj]

Julahas can take Bhagat Kabir and form a seperate Panth. Jatts can take out Bhagat Dhannas bani. Rajputs can take out Bhagat Pipas bani.

Is that a solution?

No, there will be even more hatred towards them, especially if Kaands like Dansiwal happen again (tearing down Nishan Sahib).

You know what happened in Talhan, Jalandhar? Caste based war it was.

We are just sitting here criticising everything, but what have we done to change it? Anyone will go out and preach Sikhi and equality in rural Punjab?

[dalsingh101]

We are just sitting here criticising everything, but what have we done to change it? Anyone will go out and preach Sikhi and equality in rural Punjab?

A silk scarf on the neck of pigs!

These discriminatory people know damn well Sikhi is against these things and still continue. No amount of preaching is going to change these ignorant pendus. They are more concerned with land, prestige, wealth, status, ego and feeling better than the next man than Sikhi. Who in their right mind would want to be anywhere near them? Our Guru's have already given them the message and they have chosen to ignore it. Plus we can all see their society falling apart, under the weight of their own stupidity.

Let karma humble them.

Sikhi's future isn't in the pends of Panjab.

[kdsingh80]

How long did people expect them to continue bearing the brunt of discrimination without giving up on the faith? By the sounds of it, you appear to have expected them to do so indefinitely??

You have not answered my question,How the creation of separate Ravidassia religion will help them to uplift their social status?Is creation of new religion will stop discrimination which they face from society.Lets assume there are 50 Dalits in village 25 decided to make new religion other 25 decided to create separate Gurdwara ,I don't see how the 25 Dalits which created separate Religion will stop facing discrimination

As far as giving up faith is concerned for some people

even a bottle of whisky can make them change their Faith for some even if all the people throw him out of Gurdwara even then he will not give up his Faith.Faith is all depend on shardha

[dalsingh101]

You have not answered my question,How the creation of separate Ravidassia religion will help them to uplift their social status?Is creation of new religion will stop discrimination which they face from society.Lets assume there are 50 Dalits in village 25 decided to make new religion other 25 decided to create separate Gurdwara ,I don't see how the 25 Dalits which created separate Religion will stop facing discrimination

As far as giving up faith is concerned for some people

even a bottle of whisky can make them change their Faith for some even if all the people throw him out of Gurdwara even then he will not give up his Faith.Faith is all depend on shardha

As you always do, you've just excused the masses of Sikhs who act worse than Bahmans with their nonsense. You are a proper pendu, I don't care if you think you are 'urbane'.

In the end a keystone of Sikhi is the notion of equality. Once they figured out that in reality being a Sikh doesn't result in being treated in a respectful and dignified manner, it is no big surprise (to me anyway) that they decide to separate.

Thing with attempts at self empowerment is that they have no guarantee of success. Blacks did not have a guarantee of an improved situation for themselves when they started their civil rights movement in the US but they went ahead with it anyway. It will be the same with any other group fighting for change, there is no guarantee that Dalits will improve their situation with what they are doing, but doing something is still infinitely better than doing nothing and accepting the status quo like placid cowards.

What can we say as Sikhs? If we fail to deliver the promise of equality and dignity for fellow brothers based on such patently unSikh like principles such as caste, do we really expect them to stick around? I think any oppressed people with any spirit/heart will try and change their circumstances in one way or another. These people tried the Sikh way and the majority caste loving Sikhs failed them. I'm not going to sit about and judge or condemn their attempts at a better life. How they go about self empowering themselves is their own business. They can say "We tried the Sikh way for centuries and it didn't deliver its promise. Our own fellow Sikhs created the very environment that we sought to escape from in Hinduism." If they cut ties with Sikhs, so be it. I'd have probably done the same in their shoes. No one isto blame for all this other than the arsehole Sikhs who follow caste and supremacism like Bahmans.

The question that remains in the end is whether or not you are a backwards idiot of some sort, because you really do seem to struggle to grasp the quite straight forward concept of people naturally moving away from environments that are detrimental for them and seeking a better deal or risking striking out on their own to try and carve a better life for themselves in the face of failure and risk. I imagine for them it is a case of action is better than inaction.

Edited June 26, 2011 by dalsingh101

[SikhKhoj]

Half if not all of the pendus don't have a clue what true Sikhi is. To them Sikhi is going to Gurughar on Sangrand and just keeping kes (which most already don't).

Sikhi's future isn't in the pends of Panjab.

Thats a joke. Punjab is our spiritual home and is in need of loads of parchaar.

Just wondering, have you guys done anything besides writing long posts on net? Not that I have, but we could do something, no?

Edited June 25, 2011 by SikhKhoj

[Xylitol]

As you always do, you've just excused the masses of Sikhs who act worse than Bahmans with their nonsense. You are a proper pendu, I don't care if you think you are 'urbane'.

In the end a keystone of Sikhi is the notion of equality. Once they figured out that in reality being a Sikh doesn't result in being treated in a respectful and dignified manner, it is no big surprise (to me anyway) that they decide to separate.

Thing with attempts at self empowerment is that they have no guarantee of success. Blacks did not have a guarantee of an improved situation for themselves when they started their civil rights movement in the US but they went ahead with it anyway. It will be the same with any other group fighting for change, there is no guarantee that Dalits will improve their situation with what they are doing, but doing something is still infinitely better than doing nothing and accepting the status quo like placid cowards.

What can we say as Sikhs? If we fail to deliver the promise of equality and dignity for fellow brothers based on such patently unSikh like principles such as caste, do we really expect them to stick around? I think any oppressed people with any spirit/heart will try and change their circumstances in one way or another. These people tried the Sikh way and the majority caste loving Sikhs failed them. I'm not going to sit about and judge or condemn their attempts at a better life. How they go about self empowering themselves is their own business. They can say "We tried the Sikh way for centuries and it didn't deliver its promise. Our own fellow Sikhs created the very environment that we sought to escape from in Hinduism." If they cut ties with Sikhs, so be it. I'd have probably done the same in their shoes. No one isto blame for all this other than the arsehole Sikhs who follow caste and supremacism like Bahmans.

The question that remains in the end is whether or not you are a backwards idiot of some sort, because you really do seem to struggle to grasp the quite straight forward concept of people naturally moving away from environments that are detrimental for them and seeking a better deal or risking striking out on their own to try and carve a better life for themselves in the face of failure and risk. I imagine for them it is a case of action is better than inaction.

you understand sikhi from a completely different angle than some do. your's is very social/political, which is why you consider a simple (yet important) thing like equality to be the cornerstone of dharm. it is not. this is your vichaar and not what bani says. Naam is the cornerstone. the two of you don't see eye to eye and you keep making accusations of casteism etc b/c he comes from a different angle. he sees it more from the spiritual side. i'm honestly astounded that you keep lobbing empty accusations. surely you can see that he's looking at it from a more spiritual angle, remembering kurbanian where people gave up everything for dharm???

[dalsingh101]

you understand sikhi from a completely different angle than some do. your's is very social/political, which is why you consider a simple (yet important) thing like equality to be the cornerstone of dharm. it is not. this is your vichaar and not what bani says. Naam is the cornerstone. the two of you don't see eye to eye and you keep making accusations of casteism etc b/c he comes from a different angle. he sees it more from the spiritual side. i'm honestly astounded that you keep lobbing empty accusations. surely you can see that he's looking at it from a more spiritual angle, remembering kurbanian where people gave up everything for dharm???

What, do you honestly think that every Sikh affiliated with the faith purely out of deep spiritual reasons? DO you honestly think the promise of a better social order didn't play a part. Or a chance to change the political scene wasn't a consideration for those who may have felt oppressed under the Moghuls? Those Sikhs that formed the nucleaus of the original panth in Kartarpur WERE part of a new social order. Sikhs DID become increasingly political. Mughal politics DID play a big part in the course Sikhs were to take. A distinct political overview WAS a characteristic of the faith from our Gurus time.

The way you've separated the spiritual from the social and political isn't reflected in Sikh history at all. How many contemporary/near contemporary sources talk of how the Khalsa merged the 4 castes into one for example.

I do believe that egalitarianism is ONE of the cornerstones of Sikh belief. This emanates from Sikh spirituality - it's not something separate from it.

I don't think he is looking at it from a spiritual angle at all. He is looking at it from social angle if anything. One that seems to believe that things such as caste discrimination are natural/normal and that people should just learn to live with them. I don't agree. That is where we differ.

Some people (like yourself perhaps?) might think following religious rasams without paying too much attention to stark internal problems with discrimination is an acceptable path for Sikh spirituality, but a lot of people would disagree. Some would feel that it is just a cop out in having to face up to and deal with pretty shameful dynamics amongst us. One that's gone on for way too long and one whose effects are there for all to see now.

Suggesting people accept discrimination as a member of the panth (like kds did) is a load of bull, I'm sorry but it is true.

Edited June 26, 2011 by dalsingh101

[G.Kaur]

Well if they create their own Gurdwara's ,follow maryada then I don't think anyone will blame them ,but the problem is they start creating their own Religion which is ridiculous

I'm at a friends house so I haven't read all the posts in this topic yet, so you might already have answered my questions, but are you saying that people from a low caste background should accept being raped by high caste boys, get beaten up by the high castes, not allowed to be in the same room with a high caste, brahmin kids bullying your kids because they are dalits?

There comes a time when enough is enough. Parchaar and education won't help people who are stubborn and obsessed with their caste and don't want to change their mind. I already tried talking to a lot of people back home in my pind and they all said "we are x caste and we will never marry our kids to people from other castes, if they do we won't talk to them anymore" etc. I'm not gonna waste my time and life to explain what Sikhi says, life is too long for that.

We as a community failed to practice what Sikhi says about caste, if your sister got raped by high caste boys, if your family got beaten up just because they were from a low caste, if an employer denied you a job because of your background you wouldn't accept it and say "oh yeah well that's life, I just gotta accept it". You would create your own community just like the chamars, if I were in their shoes I know I would.

[G.Kaur]

Half if not all of the pendus don't have a clue what true Sikhi is. To them Sikhi is going to Gurughar on Sangrand and just keeping kes (which most already don't).

Half of all educated people don't know what true Sikhi is either.

What makes you think that education means you are knowledgeable about religion?

[SikhKhoj]

Assumptions? I said pendus because Sikhi is mostly in pinds, check census and see how many Sikhs there are in Jalandhar (whole district has around 35% Sikhs) or Chandigarh. Yes there are Sikhs in Amritsar etc but you can't deny that 80% of pendus are Sikhs. Casteism is rampant in villages where there are seperate cremating places/gurdwaras for different 'castes', there isn't this much divide in cities (while not denying that people there still practise caste based discriminations - they even do when they are in foreign countries).

I never used the word educated or uneducated.

By the way, pendus are getting literate too, doesn't change anything about their knowledge of or level of dedication towards Sikhi. So worldly education hasn't much too do with it. Usually rural areas are much more strict in their Sikhi (Tarn Taran area of Punjab has over 90% Sikhs).

Read before commenting G.Kaur.

[G.Kaur]

Okay I misunderstood your post. Shoot me.

[Xylitol]

I understood his post as not promoting casteism. either way I do get that people come into the kaum for many reasons, and that issues must be addressed, as evidenced by posts on the forum over the years.

Bottom line for me though, if a person turns his back on the Guru for any reason, he was never a real sikh to begin with. I understand most people won't take that line, and that's fine with me. people are all at their own way of understanding.

[dalsingh101]

Bottom line for me though, if a person turns his back on the Guru for any reason, he was never a real sikh to begin with. I understand most people won't take that line, and that's fine with me. people are all at their own way of understanding.

Well what about all the hordes of 'respectable' Sikhs who stay around and emanate the caste based oppression? You could equally question whether they are truly Sikh or not? If their hypocrisy casts doubts on this, then maybe you could explain the situation as fake caste loving Sikhs chasing off poor people who want to become Sikh with their ignorant backwards bullshit?

That's another way of understanding it without excusing oppression.

Edited June 26, 2011 by dalsingh101